Founding Fathers Pt7: A New Nation in Chaos

Summary

Podcast Summary: Titanic: Ship of Dreams – "Founding Fathers Pt7: A New Nation in Chaos" (July 16, 2026)
Host: Clark Peters (Narrator) | Notable Guests: Professors Alan Taylor, Kristen Blackstone, Peter Castor, Carol Berkin; Julius Jefferson; Lindsay Chervinsky

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Episode Overview

This episode, the seventh in the "Founding Fathers" series, examines the United States in its fragile infancy after the Revolutionary War. Host Clark Peters and expert guests explore the chaos, strife, and political innovation that defined the decade between American victory in the Revolution and the ratification of the U.S. Constitution. The story navigates through economic crisis, rebellion, the contentious Constitutional Convention, and the compromises—including on slavery and statehood for Native lands—that shaped a new regime. Listeners are brought into the rooms (and backrooms) where the fate of the nation was debated and decided.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Shays' Rebellion and Revolutionary Unrest

• Opening Scene ([01:04]–[04:28]): The episode opens with the dramatic march of Daniel Shays and fellow veterans to the Springfield Armory in 1787—an act reflecting postwar economic hardship and government failure to pay soldiers.
  • The confrontation ends violently, with authorities firing artillery on the rebels, marking a turning point in revolutionary ideals and postwar governance.
  • Memorable moment: "Heroes who helped to found the United States are being hunted as traitors. This new America, independent, free, is on the precipice of ruin." (Clark Peters, [04:18])

The New Nation's Fragile Foundations

• Post-Yorktown America ([04:34]–[09:41]):
  • Host Clark Peters describes a society reeling from the aftermath of independence—trade networks broken, debts unmanageable, state rivalries escalating.
  • Key figures like Franklin, Jefferson, and Adams are abroad; Washington famously relinquishes his military command, establishing a precedent for civilian control.
    • Quote: "Of all his legacies, I think in fact, this is by far his most important." (Dr. Kristen Blackstone on Washington's resignation, [09:24])

The Problems with the Articles of Confederation

• Weak Central Authority ([09:41]–[11:47]):
  • The Articles of Confederation provide a loose framework, making Congress virtually powerless, especially in taxation and inter-state disputes.
  • Quote: "There's really no coercive mechanism to get these states to toe the line... we now have this confederation which is too weak to hold us together." (Professor Alan Taylor, [11:35])

Democratic Participation and Populist Revolt

• The Example of Shays’ Rebellion ([12:34]–[13:51]):
  • Beyond economic justice, the rebellion reflects a growing expectation for political participation by ordinary citizens.
  • Insight: "It unleashed the notion that common people could and should be politically active." (Professor Peter Castor, [12:37])

The Annapolis Conference and Seeds of a Constitution

• Hamilton and Madison Step Forward ([13:51]–[15:45]):
  • Alexander Hamilton and James Madison recognize the need for a stronger federal government.
  • The conference, while sparsely attended, resolves to call a broader meeting—the stage is set for the Philadelphia Convention.

The Constitutional Convention: Debates and Dramas

• Secrecy, Star Power, and Sweaty Summers ([17:45]–[22:44]):
  • In a tightly closed, oppressively hot State House, delegates (including Washington, Franklin, Hamilton, Madison) begin work on what will become the U.S. Constitution.
  • Memorable description: "The windows are closed. The room is already warm... it's the only way to make sure delegates feel free to discuss, debate and vote." (Clark Peters, [18:10])
  • Washington is elected president of the convention but participates mainly behind the scenes.
    • Quote: "He just wasn't necessarily speaking out loud during the convention." (Lindsay Chervinsky, [22:26])

Competing Plans and Bitter Compromise

• The Virginia Plan and Hamilton’s British-Like System ([23:26]–[26:52]):

  • Madison’s Virginia Plan proposes a strong, three-branch national government; small states protest they’ll be dominated by the big.
  • Hamilton surprises with a speech proposing an almost monarchical, British-style government.
    • Quote: "He wanted to have a senate... chosen once and serve their terms for life. What does it remind you of? House of Lords... Hamilton says, that's right. I love the British system." (Professor Alan Taylor, [26:22])

• Bad Reputation for Democracy ([27:20]–[28:18]):

  • Many delegates are skeptical—fearing “mob rule” as much as tyranny.

• Connecticut Compromise ([28:18]–[31:10]):

  • The breakthrough: two houses of Congress—equal state representation in the Senate, representation by population in the House.
    • Quote: "It's really hard to build a nation. It's really easy to tear one down." (Lindsay Chervinsky, [29:42])
    • Key insight: "The essential spirit of that convention was compromise." (Professor Carol Berkin, [30:35])

The Three-Fifths Compromise and the Shadow of Slavery

• Slavery Embedded ([31:10]–[35:11]):
  • Debate skirts the reality of slavery, resulting in the infamous Three-Fifths Compromise to balance Southern and Northern interests on taxation and representation.
    • Quote: "It's all about the wealth of a few individual white men. If you count them as human beings, then the south will control the new burgeoning nation." (Julius Jefferson, [33:52])
    • Reflection: "It speaks to just how much all of the delegates really didn't want to deal with the slavery issue." (Professor Peter Castor, [34:47])

Native Lands and the Expansion Westward

• Conflict with Native Americans ([35:11]–[40:31]):
  • As settlers push into the Ohio River valley, Congress supports land grabs at the cost of Native sovereignty.
    • Quote: "The Constitution gave the federal government the resources that would later become essential to assert federal sovereignty and to extinguish Native sovereignty." (Professor Peter Castor, [39:36])
  • Expansion is, from the outset, tied to the dispossession of Native peoples.

The Constitution Drafted—And Its Contentious Reception

• Ratification Debates and Early Political Campaigns ([40:31]–[47:15]):
  • The Constitution is published, to general amazement. Only 39 of 55 delegates sign.
  • The ratification process is compared to the first national political campaign.
    • Insight: "Now you've got people coordinating a national political campaign to get this document ratified in all 13 states. That's unprecedented." (Professor Alan Taylor, [43:40])
  • Federalists (pro-Constitution) and Anti-Federalists (concerned about state power and missing rights) wage a war of words, especially in the press. Hamilton, Madison, Jay author the seminal Federalist Papers.
    • Quote: "We all get assigned the Federalist Papers because they're brilliant. They... explored challenges of government that... are still the case now." (Professor Peter Castor, [47:26])

Bill of Rights and the Narrow Path to Ratification

• Massachusetts Compromise and Aftermath ([49:04]–[52:05]):

  • Resistance in Massachusetts is overcome by a promise to include a Bill of Rights—a compromise that paves the way for eventual ratification.
    • Quote: "Along with the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights established the principles of our society." (Professor Carol Berkin, [51:23])

• Final Battles in Virginia and New York ([52:05]–End):

  • Patrick Henry, the firebrand, nearly thwarts ratification in Virginia; news of the state’s narrow ratification sways New York not to be left behind.
  • The episode closes with the Constitution narrowly accepted in both key states and the United States entering a new phase—its future far from certain.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Heroes who helped to found the United States are being hunted as traitors. This new America, independent, free, is on the precipice of ruin."
  — Clark Peters, [04:18]

• "He was very wary of the power that his role had. During the war, he made sure that there was a civilian body dictating the actions of the army... Of all his legacies, I think in fact, this is by far his most important."
  — Dr. Kristen Blackstone on Washington, [09:24]

• "There's really no coercive mechanism to get these states to toe the line if they don't pay up or they don't obey Congress."
  — Professor Alan Taylor, [11:35]

• "It unleashed the notion that common people could and should be politically active."
  — Professor Peter Castor, [12:37]

• "He wanted to have a senate... chosen once and serve their terms for life. What does it remind you of? House of Lords... Hamilton says, that's right. I love the British system."
  — Professor Alan Taylor, [26:22]

• "The essential spirit of that convention was compromise... I admire these men enormously just for that reason."
  — Professor Carol Berkin, [30:35]

• "It's all about the wealth of a few individual white men."
  — Julius Jefferson, [33:52]

• "The Constitution gave the federal government the resources that would later become essential to.... extinguish Native sovereignty."
  — Professor Peter Castor, [39:36]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Shays’ Rebellion and Aftermath: [01:04]–[04:28]
• Post-Yorktown and Washington’s Return to Civility: [04:34]–[09:41]
• Weaknesses of the Articles of Confederation: [09:41]–[11:47]
• Rise of Democratic Sentiment: [12:34]–[13:51]
• Annapolis and Build-up to Philadelphia: [13:51]–[15:45]
• Constitutional Convention Opens: [17:45]–[22:44]
• The Virginia Plan, Hamilton’s Alternative, and Debate: [23:26]–[28:18]
• Connecticut Compromise and Spirit of Compromise: [28:18]–[31:10]
• Slavery and Three-Fifths Compromise: [31:10]–[35:11]
• Native Lands and Constitution’s Impact: [35:11]–[40:31]
• Ratification, Federalist Papers, and Bill of Rights: [40:31]–[52:05]
• Crucial Votes in Virginia and New York: [52:05]–End

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Thematic Takeaways

• Nation-building as a Messy, Violent Compromise: The episode underscores the turbulence, infighting, and constant negotiation at the nation’s founding.
• Founding Contradictions: From the marginalization of Loyalists, entrenchment of slavery, and dispossession of Native lands, the Constitution’s creation is both an act of innovation and compromise with injustice.
• Birth of American Politics: The ratification process gives rise to the first true national political campaign—a taste of what will become routine in U.S. democracy.
• Legacy of Compromise: The founding is painted not as the triumph of a single vision, but as the uneasy settlement of many conflicting interests and fears.

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For the next and final episode:
Expect an exploration of early U.S. politics, George Washington’s presidency, partisan infighting, an infamous duel, and another brush with collapse—closing the arc of America's tumultuous beginnings.

Transcript

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It's the afternoon of January 25, 1787. More than five years since the British surrendered at Yorktown. American independence is secured. And yet in western Massachusetts, soldiers are on the move. As snow falls in the darkening light, 1500 men March eight abreast. Leading the way are 400 veterans of the Revolutionary War. Among them is a farmer named Daniel Shays. As a captain in the Continental Army, Shays had a remarkable service record. He saw action at Bunker Hill in Saratoga. On one occasion, he was even handpicked by George Washington for a special mission. Shays fought bravely for the United States. Now he's taking up arms again. This time against the very government he helped to found. In the three and a half years since the war ended, economic strife has hit America. No longer within the British Empire, American trade networks have been ruined. State governments have been left with huge debts. Everywhere, financial problems are fueling discord. Farmers and workers are struggling. And like Daniel Shays, thousands of veterans still haven't been paid for their years of service. Months ago, Shays began to protest alongside other ex soldiers. They were loud, yet mainly peaceful. Not anymore. Shays is leading these men on a march to an armory in the town of Springfield. There, they'll grab the weapons and, well, who knows what's next. They march ever closer to Springfield. But there's a surprise in store. The authorities have intercepted Secret messages. They know the rebels are on their way and they're ready for them. As the rebels approach the armory, local militiamen open fire. Warning shots, supposedly. But then comes artillery fire. In a flurry of violence, 24 men are shot. Four of them are killed. Shays flinches in a panic. The men behind him scatter. The militiamen charge. Shays and his fellow rebels escape into the woods. Shays is safe for now. Within a few weeks, while still on the run, he'll be sentenced to death in absentia. So it's come to this. Heroes who helped to found the United States are being hunted as traitors. This new America, independent, free, is on the precipice of ruin.

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[Clark Peters]

I'm Clark Peters and from the Noiser podcast network. This is part seven of Founding An American Dream. We ended our previous episode on a world changing event. In October 1781, the British surrendered at the siege of Yorktown. Thanks to the crucial intervention of their French allies, the United States seized the upper hand. Victory at Yorktown is huge. It signals to everyone that the British have had enough. Hostilities continue in fits and starts. But in September 1783, the Treaty of Paris makes it official. The war is over. The American Revolution is complete. So life begins again. In a tailor's shop in New York City, a man in his late twenties looks at himself in the mirror. He likes what he sees. Wrapped around his slim torso is a beautiful new garment. A double breasted coat with gleaming brass buttons and gilded lapels. This is Alexander Hamilton. We last saw Hamilton in episode six, Storming, a key British defense at Yorktown. In the two years since then, Hamilton has been making his way in the world. It's what he does best. Frequent trips to a French tailor are central to his new life. It's all part of a strategy. Look smart, think smart. Once George Washington's trusted aide, Hamilton is now a successful attorney. And he has an outstanding reputation. Although some of his clientele might surprise you, they include Loyalists, those who stuck with Britain during the war. In many states, Loyalists are still subject to punishment, legal and otherwise. Everything from property confiscation to tarring and feathering. But Hamilton sees no sense in recrimination. It's time to move on. That's probably not a majority opinion. Congress recommends that states don't punish Loyalists, but few people are listening. Professor Alan Taylor, how many states do

[Professor Alan Taylor]

you think followed that recommendation? Zero. It's a recommendation. So some Loyalists tried to go home and they got mobbed. A fair number of them got lynched. A lot of them tried to get their property back. They did not get their property back. So they end up settling in what becomes Canada. They settle in the Bahamas, Bermuda. Significant number come to Britain. I'm talking about the people who were active as Loyalists. There were a lot of people who in their hearts would have preferred to be Loyalists, but just hunkered down and toughed it out within the new United States. And those people stay in place. They've been marginalized politically. They're not entirely happy, but they're trying to make their peace with the new system.

[Clark Peters]

By the mid-1780s, many of the Revolution's leaders are out of the picture. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams are not even in America. They're all on diplomatic missions in Europe. As for George Washington, he's decided to do something truly incredible. Once the war is concluded, Washington gives up his command of the Continental Army. This decision to step away from power is unprecedented. Dr. Kristen Blackstone

[Dr. Kristen Blackstone]

he had this very clear sense that his role as commander in chief of the Continental army could turn into something much more powerful, and he didn't want that. He was very wary of the power that his role had. During the war, he made sure that there was a civilian body that was dictating the actions of the army. And after the war, he then gives up command of the army. So instead of keeping the army taking power, political power, that way, he resigns his command of all of his legacies. I think in fact, this is by far his most important.

[Clark Peters]

With the old guard out of the way, there's space for a younger generation. Alexander Hamilton is a prime example. After leaving the army, he briefly serves in the Continental Congress. The experience is an eye opener. In Hamilton's view, Congress is weak. This is because the United States is not a single country. Instead, it's a loose confederation of 13 republics. A legal framework holds them together. It's called the Articles of Confederation. Under those terms, Congress has limited powers. It cannot, for example, raise taxes or regulate trade between states. In Hamilton's view, this is holding America back. The 13 states are bound together by a shared belief in liberty, and that's about it.

[Professor Alan Taylor]

Once the common enemy, the British, are removed from the picture, these 13 very loosely tied political entities start to spin off in their 13 separate directions. The notion is that the Congress is basically a diplomatic assembly of these 13 sovereign states that will try to coordinate their policies, but they can't create laws. Only the states can create laws. Only the states can levy taxes. So this coordinating body is basically saying to the individual states, we need this amount of money. From each of you states and we're going to pursue these policies and we need for your state laws to conform with our policies. What happens if a state says no? There's really no coercive mechanism to get these states to toe the line if the they don't pay up or they don't obey congress. So everything is looking like, oh, you know, we've had this revolution, we won this war, but we now have this confederation which is too weak to hold us together.

[Clark Peters]

Across the United States, problems are piling up. Individuals and governments are plagued by war debts. Trade disputes between states risk turning into armed conflict, and angry veterans demand payment for services rendered. In Massachusetts, the protests turn violent, such as the so called Shays rebellion that began this episode. Ultimately, Shays and other rebels are given pardons. Executing war heroes would not be a smart move. And in some ways, Shays Rebellion embodies the entire point of the revolution. Professor Peter Castor One of the most

[Professor Peter Castor]

remarkable things about the American Revolution that people I think forget about is that it unleashed the notion that common people could and should be politically active. Shays Rebellion is a particular opposition movement about men who claimed they were not being paid back the debts that were owed to to them. It is also, however symptomatic of this way that Americans in a lot of states believed that they had something they could do, that they could be politically active, they could be politically engaged. The other thing that Shays Rebellion proved was that if the states individually and collectively couldn't get their financial house in order, that would be just as threatening to the ongoing success of the revolution as anything else. What really looks like a small group of troublemakers in western Massachusetts was symptomatic of not only the problems after the revolution, but the opportunities that all of these Americans had really believed in the revolution and believed in the deal that they had made a decade earlier, which is that if their leaders were going to call for independence, there had to be a place for them in this new political system.

[Clark Peters]

Less than two weeks after Shays Rebellion breaks out in Massachusetts, Alexander Hamilton arrives in the town of Annapolis, Maryland. A conference has been called to address the crisis. What's needed, Hamilton says, is to rip up the articles of Confederation and start again. Only a strong central government can pull America out of its spiral. This conference is a potentially huge moment. Shame then that only 12 people have turned up between them. They represent just five states, but among the 12, there is one very important person. James Madison, a bookish, introverted 35 year old from Virginia. In personality, Hamilton and Madison are miles apart, but they share a conviction. Both believe that only strong central government can save the United States. Over four days, Hamilton and Madison advanced their position. By the end of the convention, delegates agree the gains of the revolution are at risk. This political and economic crisis is paving the way to civil war. So a statement is crafted. All 13 states are urged to send delegates to another convention in late spring 1787. The mandate is clear. Revise the Articles of Confederation. Make tweaks to what's already in place. Iron out some creases. Yet what happens instead is something far more radical.

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[Clark Peters]

It's May 25, 1787 in Philadelphia. The the rain is drumming down a line of well dressed gentlemen scamper into the Pennsylvania State House. The moment they're inside, the door is bolted shut behind them. They turn right on the brick floor and enter the assembly room. It's the same room where many of our founding fathers had once poured poured over the Declaration of Independence. A chandelier hangs low from the ceiling. Placed throughout the room are tables covered in green cloth. Behind each are plain spindle armchairs. Small groups of men are locked in quiet conversation. The room isn't quite full, but there are enough delegates present for proceedings to begin. Today is the first session of the Constitutional Convention. Before anything can happen, the windows are closed. The room is already warm. Without a breeze flowing through, it'll be oppressively humid. But secrecy is paramount. The building is on lockdown. It's the only way to make sure delegates feel free to discuss, debate and vote. Only those invited are allowed in. No members of the public, and definitely no journalists. The stated aim of this convention is simple to improve the Articles of Confederation. But several men in the room, including Hamilton and Madison, have bigger plans. They want to redesign the system to reinvent the United States of America. Looking around, there are notable absences. No John Adams, no Thomas Jefferson. They are still serving abroad as ambassadors to Britain and France. But there are some famous American silverbacks. Most notably Benjamin Franklin. Although he's 81 now and not in great health, George Washington is here, too. He's no longer a military commander, but that hasn't stopped him from wearing his old uniform. At 55, he's still a commanding presence, taciturn and stately. First things first. The convention needs to elect someone to be in charge. There's only one man for the job, Mr. America himself, George Washington. Washington steps up onto a raised platform at the end of the room. He takes his seat resembling a king on a throne. Perhaps a few people would like to see him take that role, too. But that's not Washington's style. Everyone settles into their chairs. The convention begins. For the next four months, Washington will say very little. He sits quietly, Buddha like, observing. But to the delegates, it's clear where his sympathies lie. Lindsay Chervinsky George Washington's role was actually

[Lindsay Chervinsky]

central to the Constitutional Convention, but in ways that people don't necessarily appreciate. So he was there. Of course, he did not miss a single session. He was the president of the convention and was selected unanimously to that role on the very first day of the official proceedings. But he showed up to Philadelphia before the session actually began and spent almost a week basically in cahoots with the Virginia and Pennsylvania members, planning out how they wanted to create a new government that would have a much stronger executive. And his perspective in those conversations was obviously incredibly important because of who he was, his stature, the trust that people had in him. At this point, people were already referring to him as the father of the country, which is a pretty remarkable statement, but also because he had wielded power in such a trustworthy way during the revolution. And so over the course of the convention, when people see see Madison proposing these ideas, when they see James Wilson, a famous Pennsylvanian, proposing ideas, they should know that Washington had contributed to those ahead of time. He just wasn't necessarily speaking out loud during the convention.

[Clark Peters]

Washington's wartime experiences shape his attitude to this convention. The same is true of many veterans. The war had in large part made Americans Americans.

[Lindsay Chervinsky]

Many of the soldiers and the officers who fought in the Continental army, especially those who fought with Washington, they had traveled all around the country, so they had a national vision of what the United States was, as opposed to only living in one place and seeing one type of people. They also served with people from all of the different states. So they forged bonds with those from South Carolina and Massachusetts. And they recognized that when it was cold, they were all cold, and when it was hot, they all dealt with mosquitoes. And so there was a human suffering experience that really went above any cultural or state line that they could have drawn beforehand.

[Clark Peters]

On May 30, Edmund Randolph rises to his feet. He's from Virginia, a colleague of James Madison. Randolph presents what is known as the Virginia Plan. It might be more accurate to call it the Madison Plan. Really, it's his baby. If anyone here thinks their brief is to simply tweak the status quo, Randolph sets them straight. The Virginia plan calls for a powerful central government with three separate branches, executive, legislative, and judicial. The legislative branch will consist of Congress, Though it will be split into two halves, a senate and a House of Representatives. And the executive will be one person, an elected president. The Virginia plan is essentially the nuts and bolts of what will become the the US Federal government. But it appalls some of the delegates under the proposed system. The bigger a state's population, the more representatives it will have in Congress. To delegates from smaller states, their independence is at risk. They'll hardly get a say in Congress. The larger states will completely dominate. Three weeks of debate and wrangling ensues, and warmer weather sets in. But the doors and windows stay shut. As debates drag on, George Washington searches for respite from the heat. He purchases an odd contraption, a chair with A large overhead fan a operated by a pedal beneath his feet. With sweat dripping from the walls, the older delegates struggle to keep their eyes open. Little progress is made. There's no consensus on how many representatives each state should have in Congress. All the while, Alexander Hamilton stays in the background. He just sits and listens. Not like him at all. Then, on the morning of June 18, Hamilton takes to the floor and delivers an astonishing speech across. Wait for it six hours. He proposes something nobody has yet suggested. However, his fellow delegates are pretty sure they've heard it somewhere before.

[Professor Alan Taylor]

Hamilton introduced something that looked more like the British system that would have had president who basically would be elected once and then would serve for life. So what does that remind you of? Hey King? He wanted to have a senate that consisted of people who would be chosen once and serve their terms for life. What does it remind you of? House of Lords and the other delegates are going, we just thought this revolution, and you're proposing the system that looks like just a modification of the British system. Hamilton says, that's right. I love the British system and all we should do is just adapt it a little. Other politicians said American people never go for that.

[Clark Peters]

To his detractors, Hamilton has just revealed himself an enemy of republicanism, a champion of elitism, aristocracy, and worst of all, monarchy. In coming years, that reputation will cling to him as tightly as this humid Philadelphia air. Yet if Hamilton's idea of the future doesn't seem all that democratic, that shouldn't be surprising.

[Professor Peter Castor]

In the 1780s, Americans were less sure about democracy. There's some people for whom it was a bad word. Some of the problems they associated with democracy was, first of all that it would make local leaders only support local causes and they wouldn't see bigger issues. It would prevent any kind of agreement. And that's the least of the problems. Some of the nastiest stuff from people who oppose democracy were people who said common people don't have the ability to govern themselves. But it's really this notion that a democracy can lead to mob rule, to decline, to chaos. And so people, people come into the Constitutional Convention committed to the notion that the United States is and should be a place that operates on the consent of the governed. There's gotta be a way to preserve it against these threats in a way that harnesses the best aspects of democracy and mitigates against its greatest dangers. That is a really tall order.

[Clark Peters]

The stalemate drags on, and the key question remains. Should each state get equal representation in Congress, or should the states with larger populations dominate. It's July 16th when delegates from Connecticut pitch an idea. Why not have both systems in the Senate, each state would get two seats, but in the House of Representatives, the number of seats would be determined by the size of the state's population. This way, everybody wins, or at least nobody definitely loses. Big states will boss it in the House, while in the Senate, small states will be on an equal footing with the larger ones. The Connecticut compromise is a huge breakthrough. It sets the tone for the rest of the convention.

[Lindsay Chervinsky]

They really were motivated by a sense of urgency. Most of the people who were at the Constitutional Convention had participated in the revolutionary experiment in some way, and so they had skin in the game. They had fought for this thing, and they knew how hard it was to win and also how hard it was to maintain. It's really hard to build a nation. It's really easy to tear one down. And so, really, I think we should see the convention as a series of compromises, because they weren't just compromising on one thing. They were compromising on things constantly. And every single person who was at the convention left without something they had really wanted. But they had enough that they felt like they could agree to it.

[Clark Peters]

Key to this spirit of compromise is the secrecy surrounding the convention. Professor Carol Burkin is author of a brilliant Inventing the Constitution.

[Professor Carol Berkin]

They met in secret because not only could everyone talk more freely, but they did not want the government of their state to know that they were going to compromise with others. Every state sent a list of you don't give in on this. Don't demand this. And as soon as the men got together, they realized, if we all it's my way or the highway, nothing will happen. The essential spirit of that convention was compromise. They compromised on everything because they knew it was important. I admire these men enormously just for that reason, that they understood that politics was a game of compromise. If you had a goal,

[Clark Peters]

the Connecticut compromise solves an enormous problem, but it leads straight into another. This time, it's the explosive subject of slavery.

[Professor Peter Castor]

When the American Revolutionary War broke out, when the Declaration of Independence was written, every British colony permitted enslavement. That enslavement was pretty much limited to African Americans. During the course of the Revolutionary War, about half the colonies established gradual emancipation. The first state was Pennsylvania. And there's been these terrific studies of enslaved Philadelphians and what happens to them when they become free. And the first thing they do is they change their names. A lot of them had been given first names and not last names or they had the names of their masters. And they chose new names. Do you know what the most common last names were? Freeman and Newman. I'm a free man, I'm a new man. Or they chose names of the trades they had learned. Carpenter, Mason, African Americans. They understood what the revolution was about and they literally take notions of freedom and that this is a new project into their own names.

[Clark Peters]

Yet in Southern states, slavery is as strong and pernicious as ever. Among the all white delegates in Philadelphia, there is no desire to deal with it head on.

[Professor Peter Castor]

Some of the delegates, they find slavery morally abhorrent. But nonetheless, for most of them, the higher priority is preserving the Union. They are going to do everything they can to paper over slavery, to just prevent slavery from ripping things apart.

[Clark Peters]

But slave holding states pose a dilemma that can't be ignored. They want their enslaved population to count towards their representation in Congress, but not when it comes to setting taxes.

[Professor Peter Castor]

And so they did the same thing they did on several other issues. So they come up with a compromise, which is that for reasons of apportionment, slaves will count as 3/5 of individuals.

[Clark Peters]

This means that states that have slave populations will have their presence in Congress boosted. But slaves won't fully count when it comes to setting federal taxes. The way slavery is addressed in the Constitution reflects unpalatable truths. Julius Jefferson is the descendant of numerous people enslaved at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello Plantation.

[Julius Jefferson]

It's all about finance, it's all about wealth. That's how I see the founding of this country. But it's all about the wealth of a few individual white men. If you count them as human beings, then the south will control the new burgeoning nation. If you made them three fifths of a human being, then you give the North a little bit more leverage. And we still forget that when the country was founded, after this Constitution was written, the majority of the the leaders in the executive branch come from the South. So all men are created equal except for these individuals who helped found the country. But politically they can be useful to us in some way. And so let's say they're three fifths of a human and then we'll continue this idea that they're inferior. Yet these individuals who they consider three fifths were always integral in developing this nation.

[Clark Peters]

What is known as the three three fifths compromise is a profoundly ugly moment in the founding of the USA and it has only incubated moral and political problems for future generations.

[Professor Peter Castor]

People often see this as symptomatic of what enslavement was all about, which is that you count as less than a person. But from my perspective, the fact that everyone could sign on to that compromise speaks to just how much all of the delegates were really didn't want to deal with the slavery issue because they knew it's the issue they couldn't resolve.

[Clark Peters]

There are other huge issues for the United States to grapple with. One of them has also been part of the American story since the earliest days of colonization. The battle between white settlers and the native population. In Philadelphia, delegates are locked in their sweltering cocoon. Debates drag on and on. Several hundred miles west, war is brewing.

[Sam's Club Member]

And we're live on match day as Doug reaches for a buffalo wing. He's got it. Oh, and he's gone for a can of Pepsi too. What a finish. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better match to deserve Pepsi.

[Clark Peters]

It's July 1787. We're on the southwestern edge of Virginia, although a few years from now, this spot will be Kentucky, the 15th state of the USA. In this wide open landscape, the Ohio river shimmers in the afternoon sun. A few hundred yards away, a group of young native men on horseback scan the horizon. One of them points into the distance. He's seen something movement on the water. It's a large flat bottom boat heading south. On board are several adults, men and women. All of them are white citizens of Virginia. These are settlers. They're transporting timber and cattle, vital supplies for their new Homesteads. For nearly 300 years, white people have been establishing communities in America. The settlers considered this land to be their birthright. It was the reason many of them supported the Revolution. But the young men watching in the distance are Shawnee people. To them, this land is theirs and always has been. These white Americans are invaders. During the last years of British rule, settlement this far west was banned. Not because the British were morally opposed. They were simply unwilling to cover the costs of further wars. It's for this reason that a majority of Native communities allied with the British. During America's War of Independence, Native people were deeply involved in the war. They fought in countless battles. Their communities were immersed in the long years of conflict. But the war is over. The British have been defeated. Everything has changed. More and more settlers are pushing into Native territory. Armed conflict has broken out. Just days ago, Congress announced new legislation. It gives backing to settlers wanting to advance into the Ohio River Valley. The Shawnee and other Native people refused to lay down. The young men on horse ride towards the river. Once they come within range, one of them fires a warning shot on the boat. The Settlers shriek. One of them grabs a gun, spotting the Shawnee men in the distance. The settler fires back. The bullet whistles through the air. It's a minor skirmish. There are no fatalities this time. But a new era of conflict between natives and white settlers has begun. The Constitutional Convention isn't blind to the conflict growing in the Ohio River Valley. In fact, it takes steps to accelerate it.

[Professor Peter Castor]

Native Americans lost their independence as a result of the American Revolution, but not right away. European empires had sought to subjugate and to conquer native peoples for over two centuries by the moment of the American Revolution, and they had been unsuccessful in doing so. The United States accomplished it in about a century. And it's the Constitution, in some ways, that makes it possible. The Constitution gave the federal government the resources that would later become essential to assert federal sovereignty and to extinguish Native sovereignty. The Constitution also established a provision for the creation of new states. And those new states come at the expense of Native sovereignty. It is often a prerequisite to become a state that all the land governed by native peoples is no longer governed by Native peoples. This is a long history. But if we see this as part of US History, it's baked into the cake from the start, in the same way that enslavement is baked into the cake.

[Clark Peters]

The long, stultifying summer draws to a close. Finally, in September, a full draft of the Constitution is complete. It begins with three memorable we the People, a subtle but powerful message of popular sovereignty. The constitution is just 4,500 words, a concise work of republican principles, the architecture of a powerful new government, complete with abundant checks and balances. The Constitution describes a new system called federalism. It attempts to distribute power fairly between central government, the states and the people. What has been achieved is described by some as the miracle at Philadelphia. But not everyone at the convention would agree. Only 39 of the 55 delegates signed the document. Some are rigidly opposed to this vision of federal government. Nevertheless, the convention's work is finally done. No more long days in airless seclusion. The delegates can all go home, and the draft Constitution can be revealed. News of what has been agreed in Philadelphia rushes out. Details are printed in newspapers throughout the 13 states. In town meetings, coffee houses and taverns, people learn what the delegates have been cooking up. The consensus is astonishment. Many are stunned by the scope of the document. The delegates haven't just been tinkering under the hood. They've built a whole new vehicle.

[Professor Alan Taylor]

The opening words of this Constitution are very significant as we the people. It doesn't Say we the states. So that's a bold statement by the people writing this Constitution that they are imagining something known as the people, the American people. There's a lot of pushback to that language from many people who are staunch revolutionaries, like Sam Adams or like Patrick Henry, who say, ah, ah, ah. We waged this revolution in order to have strong states, not to create this super government that would control the state, which is what the new U.S. constitution does.

[Clark Peters]

The proposed Constitution is radically democratic. As such, it will only come into being with the consent of the people, or to be specific, the free male people. Each state will elect representatives at ratifying conventions. There the Constitution will be dissected and debated. Then the representatives will vote yes or no. If nine states vote yes, the Constitution will come into effect. So two teams begin to form. One of them advocates the status quo. The other urges the people to embrace something bold and new. It's not history repeating exactly, but 1787 does have echoes of 1776. Yet at the same time, it's breaking new ground.

[Professor Alan Taylor]

This is the first national political campaign in American history. Because in the past, the members of Congress were just chosen by state legislatures in each one of the different states. They don't have to campaign in other states. They don't have to coordinate a political campaign that is happening at the same time in Massachusetts, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, New York. So now you've got people coordinating a national political campaign to get this document ratified in all 13 states. That's unprecedented.

[Clark Peters]

And like any American political campaign, it's brutal. Predictably, Alexander Hamilton is in the thick of it. In the fall, Hamilton is locked in a public war of words. His opponent is George Clinton, the Governor of New York. These two have had beef for years. A mixture of political differences, ambition and ego. Clinton is utterly opposed to the Constitution. He wants a strong New York State, not a powerful federal government. Hamilton fires off the first insult. He calls Clinton thick skulled. Interested only in himself, Clinton hits back. He or someone close to him gives Hamilton crude, insulting nicknames. In the pages of at least one newspaper, Hamilton's Americanness is called into question. He's foreign born, Clinton supporters remind their readers. Maybe he's mixed race too, and illegitimate. There are no such things as birth certificates in 1787. If there were, maybe Clinton would demand that Hamilton publishes in small ways. The Hamilton Clinton spat is reproduced across America. Supporters of the Constitution are called Federalists. Those against it are anti Federalists. In every state, the two sides do rhetorical battle. This is, after all, America. However, the famous American Right to freedom of speech is not written into the Constitution. Since the start of the Revolution, every state has written its own Constitution. Enshrined in some of these are individual rights. But the US Constitution contains nothing like this. To many people, that's alarming. When the subject was raised at the convention, Madison dismissed it. People's rights are already covered in state constitutions, he said. And for now, that's the line he's sticking to. As 1788 approaches, Hamilton and Madison team up once again. Along with Hamilton's fellow New Yorker, John Jay, they write a series of essays. Each advances the argument for a federal government.

[Professor Peter Castor]

Eventually, they assemble a group of those documents into a single book that becomes simply known as the Federal. It's now often called the Federalist Papers. American school children still read it in high school and college. We all get assigned the Federalist Papers because they're brilliant. They not only explain the Constitution, but they explored challenges of government that were the case in 1788, but are still the case now. Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay learned from the Revolution. They knew the power of print.

[Clark Peters]

Hamilton, Madison, and Jay also exploit a tactical advantage. Federalists have a single coherent aim to sing the praises of the Constitution and sketch a vision of a better tomorrow. Not so for the anti Federalists.

[Professor Peter Castor]

The anti Federalists had a lot of different reasons for opposing this. Some opposed opposed it because it did not have a Bill of Rights. But there are other people who opposed it for other reasons. They thought the President was too powerful. They thought Congress was too weak. There were any one of a number of reasons, and they're almost too many to list. Here's the other problem. They didn't have a better solution. And the Federalists would say to them, all right, how are you going to address the crippling debt that faces every state? How are you going to address the fact that foreign powers will not let us trade with them? How will you address the fact that Native Americans are powerful in the west and they're winning the war against us there? How will you address all of these things? How will you prevent the states from falling apart? And the Antiferalists didn't really have a good answer.

[Clark Peters]

The first state to ratify the Constitution is Delaware. The vote is carried unanimously. By the end of January 1788, four other states have followed suit. A promising start. But then the Constitution hits a roadblock. In Massachusetts, there is widespread resistance to the proposed federal government. It figures Massachusetts is the rowdy, argumentative place where our story of the revolution began. Some of those who led the rebellion against Great Britain are now challenging the Constitution. Their biggest gripes are the issues of state sovereignty and individual rights, the very thing that James Madison had brushed off at the convention. Among the critics is Samuel Adams. In the 1760s, his was the loudest voice against the British government. He alleged that Parliament was stomping all over American liberty. Now, 20 years later, he warns that the same thing could happen again. Except this time the tyrants won't be a snooty king or a bunch of aristocrats. They'll be homegrown all American tyrants. Massachusetts is an influential state. A man like Adams is listened to and respected. If the Constitution falls here, the whole thing could go up in smoke. So another compromise is reached. The Federalists promise that if the Constitution passes, a Bill of Rights will be added when it is eventually introduced. A few years from now, the Bill of Rights will provide the first 10amendments to the U.S. constitution. These include the First Amendment regarding freedom of expression and the Second Amendment, the right to bear arms. And right now, in 1788, James Madison has been converted. He now sees the wisdom of having a Bill of Rights.

[Professor Carol Berkin]

Along with the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights established the principles of our society. Some of these rights are less important than that first one, and certainly less controversial than the second one. But it is an assumption of American culture that the Bill of Rights is a sacred state statement of what we believe in. You have to admire Madison's recognition that the Bill of Rights was more than just to calm down the fears of some people. It was to establish what our country stood for. And for that alone, we should admire him.

[Clark Peters]

The Massachusetts vote is taken. The Constitution scrapes home by a nose. It's a huge moment. A major obstacle has been lifted. The promise of a future Bill of Rights softens opposition in other states. In the spring, ratification follows in Maryland and South Carolina. So by early summer 1788, a total of eight states have voted yes. If just one more state ratifies, the Constitution will come into being. Yet there's a long road still to travel. The powerhouses of New York and Virginia are yet to vote. If they don't sign up, the experiment of the United States could be ruined. Even if nine other states vote yes, both New York and Virginia boast prominent anti Federalists. Ratification in either state is going to be a challenge. First up is Virginia. In early June, the state ratifying convention begins in the town of Richmond. Leading the Antifederalists is Patrick Henry, a revolutionary icon. Back in the days before independence, he was the maverick who said, give me liberty or give me death? In the theater where the convention takes place, Henry dominates. Nobody delivers a speech quite like him. He clenches his fists and strikes the air. He bares his teeth and widens his eyes. During the 22 days of the convention, Henry will give speeches on 17 of them. He's relentless, inexhaustible. James Madison does his best to push back, but he's no Patrick Henry. Little Jimmy, as he's often called, falls ill after one of his speeches. Seemingly, the stress of the last year has gotten to him. Virginia takes its vote on June 25. By this time, New York has also begun its ratifying convention. And there's breaking news. New Hampshire has just voted yes on ratification. That brings the tally to the magic nine. But still, if Virginia and New York don't join them, America is likely to descend into another crisis. It's July 2nd, 1788. We're in Poughkeepsie, New York. It's early afternoon. A messenger rides up to the local courthouse. He dismounts and walks to the front door. Inside, there's a very important event. New York's ratifying convention. The messenger hands a letter to the doorkeeper. It's addressed to Alexander Hamilton, who is sitting inside. For days, Hamilton has been desperate for news from Virginia. Tensions here in New York are high. Hamilton has been advocating the Constitution. Leading the opposition is his old foe, George Clinton. It's Clinton speaking right now. The doorkeeper war walks through the courthouse. He puts the letter into Hamilton's hand. Hamilton gasps. The letter is from James Madison. The vote from Virginia is in. Hamilton jumps to his feet. Those around him turn their heads. He reads aloud from Madison's letter. By a slim margin, Virginia has ratified the Constitution. Clinton is immediately silenced. Hamilton and the other Federalists run outside in the midday sun. They celebrate wildly. Rich, powerful Virginia has voted yes. Suddenly, the vote here seems a formality. There would be unthinkable for New York to leave itself isolated. Victory is at hand. In the end, New York's Federalists come out on top, but by the tiniest of margins, 30 votes to 27. Nevertheless, New York's vote is a powerful moment. It confirms the success of a unique. Now, another chapter in the incredible story of the United States is about to begin. But this one's not going to be smooth running either. Next time. In the final episode of Founding Fathers, An American Dream, a new chapter of the United States begins. Leading the way is America's first president, George Washington. But the President soon stuns the world with the most famous resignation in history. As the era of party politics gets underway, infighting turns Founding Fathers into bitter enemies. In a muddy field in New York, Jersey, a deadly duel claims the life of an American pioneer. And after a bruising election, the US Teeters on the verge of a violent coup and the destruction of everything the Founding Fathers have worked for. That's next time. You can listen to the final episode of Founding Fathers right now, without waiting and without ads by joining Noiser Plus. Click the banner at the top of the feed, or head to noiser.com subscriptions to find out more.