Podcast Summary: Acontece que no es poco | 16 de marzo de 1244: Los cristianos asesinan en la hoguera a 225 cátaros

Podcast: Todo Concostrina
Host: SER Podcast (Nieves Concostrina, with Carlos Francino)
Date: March 16, 2023
Episode Theme: The massacre of 225 Cathars at Montségur in 1244, the evolution of Christian sects, and how this history tangles with Nazi occult legend in 20th-century Barcelona.

Overview

Nieves Concostrina examines the tragic episode of March 16, 1244, when 225 Cathars—Christian dissidents—were executed by burning at Montségur, France. She unpacks how the Catholic Church gained dominance through centuries of violence against dissenters and how myths and legends built around the Cathars, Montségur, and the Holy Grail spiraled into Nazi quests for relics in the 20th century. With her signature ironic and direct tone, Concostrina distinguishes between historical facts and fantastical storytelling.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Setting: The Cathar Massacre at Montségur

• Background: On March 16, 1244, 225 Cathars were burned alive by mainstream Christians ("la secta cristiana principal") on suspicion of heresy. Cathars were fellow Christians who diverged from orthodoxy, seeking a purer, less corrupt form of Christianity. (01:04)
• Concostrina’s take: She emphasizes the importance of teaching the history of religion in schools, not just religious doctrine, saying,

  "Los cuentos que te los cuenten en casa, pero la historia en el cole." (01:16)

• Religious violence as a tool: Concostrina condemns the narrative of Christianity as the "most accepted" religion, noting its long history of imposing itself through violence:

  "Es la religión más impuesta, porque los cristianos han estado asesinando al disidente hasta bien entrado el siglo XIX." (01:58)

2. Who Were the Cathars?

• Originated in the context of tensions between secular and ecclesiastical power (the "querella de las investiduras"). (03:51)
• The Cathars objected to papal authority and the rampant corruption in the Church, advocating for a stripped-down Christianity:

  "Defienden un cristianismo más puro y más participativo..." (07:26)

• They rejected most sacraments, regarding all but baptism as later church inventions with no biblical grounding:

  "Todos los sacramentos eran una chorrada porque todos se los habían inventado, que es verdad, todos salvo el bautismo." (06:49)

• Discussion on the term "secta": All religious movements began as sects, including Christianity itself—a point often lost in anti-heresy rhetoric.

  "Cuando los cristianos se separaron de los judíos pasaron a ser la secta de los cristianos... Todas las religiones son sectas porque todas imponen una doctrina que hay que seguir." (05:09)

3. Persecution and Legend Building

• The response to Cathar influence was not mere repression but full-scale war:

  "Se declaró una guerra." (09:12)

  • The conflict lasted almost a century, culminating in the siege and fall of Montségur.
• Myths of the "Cathar treasure": After the massacre, legends arose of the Cathars hiding immense riches (and later, the Holy Grail) in the mountain’s caves. (09:49)
• How legend blended with art and literature:

  "Existía desde el siglo XII un relato... Perceval o el cuento del Grial." (10:24)

• Over time, 19th-century writers and figures like Wagner (opera Parsifal) and Josephin Peladan conflate Montségur, Montsalvat, and the Grail myth, fueling ever-wilder stories. (12:55)

4. From Medieval Heretic Hunts to Nazi Occultism

• Why are there Nazi ties? In the 20th century, Nazi leaders with an obsession for mystical objects (like Himmler) bought into these legends. Himmler believed the Holy Grail might be hidden in Montserrat, near Barcelona, confusing it with Montségur and Montsalvat.

  "Himmler se empeñó en que quizás la montaña mágica de Mont Salvat en la ópera de Wagner... era Montsegur... Y si lo mismo era Montserrat en Barcelona, porque también es una montaña y suena parecido." (13:15)

• Concostrina mocks this myth-chasing, suggesting rationality over superstition:

  "Yo no sé qué fumaban los nazis, pero debe ser lo mismo que los que se creen lo del Grial, lo de la sábana y lo del sudario." (14:01)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On religious imposition and violence:
  “Si te tiras 15 o 16 siglos asesinando al que te replica, pues claro que te conviertes no en la religión más aceptada, sino en la más criminal medalla de oro en el crimen.”
  (01:55, Nieves Concostrina)

• On the creation and labeling of 'sects':
  "El Papa no mencionó en ningún momento la palabra secta, pero se entendió perfectamente... Esto es muy curioso. [...] El Papa hizo lo que llevan haciendo siglos."
  (05:55, Nieves Concostrina)

• On sacraments as later inventions:
  “En la Biblia no se habla de matrimonio ni de eucaristía, ni de penitencia, ni de más mamandurrias sacramentales...”
  (07:08, Nieves Concostrina)

• On the irrational detours of Church and Nazism:
  “Así que por el amor de Parsifal, piensen un poco, lean, dejen que el cerebro haga su trabajo.”
  (14:24, Nieves Concostrina)

Important Timestamps

• 00:34: Introduction to the topic and the real story vs. legend
• 01:04: The massacre at Montségur described
• 03:47: Background on the Cathars and Church corruption
• 05:09: Discussion about “sects” and religious labeling
• 09:12: The extent and duration of the Cathar persecution
• 10:24: How the legend of the Holy Grail gets mixed into Cathar history
• 13:01: Nazi fascination and Himmler’s quest for the Grail
• 14:24: Closing call for rational thinking over myths

Summary

This episode deftly dismantles the legends woven around the Cathars, exposing the brutal strategies of religious absolutism and satirizing the wild mythmaking that followed. Concostrina’s blend of historical insight and irony challenges listeners to distinguish history from fantasy, reminding us how both past and present are shaped by stories—sometimes at a deadly price.