John Rolls: What If Inclusion Worked Better Than Quotas

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Tony Mantor: Why Not Me?
Episode Title: John Rolls: What If Inclusion Worked Better Than Quotas
Release Date: June 10, 2026
Theme: Autism, Mental Health, Advocacy & Human Stories—Creating a genuinely inclusive social space while rethinking positive discrimination, improving understanding of neurodiversity, and connecting community through music.

---

Episode Overview

In this heartfelt episode, Tony Mantor is joined by John Rolls, host of a transformative open mic event at The Gremlin Club in Carmarthen, West Wales. Their discussion delves into building safe, empowering spaces for people across the neurodiversity and mental health spectrum—particularly autism—without resorting to tokenism or quotas. John shares the evolution of the Gremlin Club's open mic night from a training ground for singers into a model of true inclusion, confidence-building, and community acceptance.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Origins and Evolution of the Gremlin Club Open Mic Night

• [00:48] John explains how the open mic night began as a partnership with Welsh Factor, serving as a rehearsal space for competitors, but organically grew to welcome anyone eager to perform—including both seasoned singers and supportive newcomers.
• Inclusive Atmosphere:
  • “It was more than just a karaoke night. It was more a community-building event… people could leave their troubles at the door.” — John [02:34]
• Transition:
  • After Welsh Factor folded and the previous host Elise retired due to illness, John stepped up to lead. He removed the competition element, focusing instead on creating fun and equality among participants.
  • “Everybody is equal. Even…very, very bad singers sometimes, but they have the same stage time, they have the same attention. Everybody is equal. And that’s what I love about it.” — John [03:39]

Inclusion Across Abilities and Mental Health

• [05:39] Tony asks John about support from the autistic and special needs communities.
  • John describes the club as “a drop-in center for dropouts,” where many members face social disadvantages or mental health issues. He shares touching anecdotes:
    • A singer with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, who delivers extraordinary performances despite struggles.
    • A young woman, blind from birth, learning all her songs by heart, seamlessly included by the community.
      • “She is just one of us. And the disadvantages and disability really don’t exist. We see past that…” — John [06:41]
• Attitude Over Quotas:
  • “I’m not a fan of positive discrimination. I’m not a fan of quotas… everybody’s equal. If the club ends up 100% Chinese one night, or 100% Welsh, that’s the audience we’ve got—welcome one and all.” — John [07:43]
  • Genuine inclusion is about mindset—treating people equally while accommodating genuine needs.

Building Confidence and Celebrating Progress

• [09:52] Tony explores how the open mic night now relaxes expectations, encouraging risk-taking and creativity.
  • John fosters bonding and confidence by putting together impromptu group performances, making newcomers feel at home.
    • “The smile on people’s faces is exactly why I do it.” — John [10:14]
• [15:34] John tells the story of a once-timid young woman whose unique voice flourished at the club, leading to her starring and headlining at major local events:
  • “She’s gone from being quite a timid character…to fronting some fairly big shows.” — John [17:24]

Changing Perceptions of Neurodiversity

• [13:04] Tony reflects on the importance of dismantling stigma for autistic and mentally ill individuals. John observes that club members now embrace and uplift neurodiverse performers:
  • “When somebody gets up and they’ve got autism…she’s just a hero. She’s one of the stars of the night… The audience’s smiles are infectious.” — John [13:43]
  • He notes the transformative effect of acceptance—audience members who might shy away from neurodiverse people outside the club are now rooting for them in the performance space.

Community Dynamics and Promotion

• [12:21] John admits promotion is mostly word-of-mouth, aided by freebies like branded magnets and an active Facebook group.
• [21:31] No live streaming—he wants people to experiment and even “fail” safely, without broadcast pressure.
  • “I want people to get up on stage and be able to try out something new…If it is a car crash, then everybody’s gonna whoop and cheer anyway.” — John [21:31]

The Club’s Ethos and John’s Reflections

• [18:30] John contrasts the old, competitive model with his more inclusive approach, measuring success not just in performances but in visible joy, acceptance, and a sense of belonging.
  • “The shell may have changed, but the core is still very much the same. And that’s not going to change.” — John [20:13]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Everybody is equal...That’s what I love about it.” — John [03:39]
• “We see past that and whatever your ability, your needs, your religion, your colour, your creed, your beliefs…everybody’s equal and everybody comes in with no preconceived reputations.” — John [06:41]
• “I’m not a fan of positive discrimination. I’m not a fan of quotas.” — John [07:43]
• “The smile on people’s faces is exactly why I do it.” — John [10:14]
• “When somebody gets up and they’ve got autism…she’s…a hero… the audience’s smiles are infectious.” — John [13:43]
• “She’s gone from being quite a timid character right in the background to fronting some fairly big shows.” — John (about a singer’s transformation) [17:24]
• “If you don’t want to come up, fine. Don’t put your name down... relax, enjoy your drink, enjoy the music…maybe just sing along from where you are.” — John [18:30]
• “The core elements of encouragement and building confidence and accepting everybody for who they are—not what they are—has gone all the way through.” — John [18:30]
• “It is organized chaos and that’s part of the magic of it.” — John [21:31]

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:48 – Origin and evolution of the Gremlin Club night
• 03:39 – Implementation of complete equality regardless of ability
• 05:39 – Participation of autistic and neurodiverse individuals; overcoming challenges
• 07:43 – John’s stance on inclusion versus quotas
• 09:52 – Strategy for fostering creativity and risk-taking in performances
• 13:43 – Impact on neurotypical and neurodiverse community interaction
• 15:34 – Story of a singer’s personal growth and confidence
• 18:30 – Club’s evolution and John’s reflections on the impact
• 21:31 – Decision not to live stream to protect performers’ sense of safety

---

Conclusion

This episode is a testament to the power of genuine inclusion, community-building, and breaking down barriers through music and support—eschewing tokenistic quotas in favor of organic acceptance. John Rolls’ journey with the Gremlin Club serves as an inspiring model for anyone seeking to build truly diverse, supportive spaces that do more than offer lip service to inclusion. The stories shared offer hope and tangible proof that when people are supported and seen—rather than sorted by category—confidence, camaraderie, and joy organically flourish.

For more information or to attend, visit the Gremlin Club in Carmarthen, West Wales, or find them on Facebook at Gremlin Open Mic Sunday.

---

This summary captures the warmth and insight of the conversation, emphasizing the lived experiences, practical lessons, and transformative power of true inclusion as shared by John Rolls and host Tony Mantor.

Transcript

[A]

What if everything you thought you knew about autism and mental health wasn't the full story? Today's conversation might change the way you see it. This is why not me. Embracing autism and mental health worldwide. Real conversations about autism, mental health and the stories that shape our lives. I'm Tony Mantour. This is where understanding begins. If this kind of conversation matters to you, follow the show so you don't miss what comes next. Joining us today is John Rawls. He's. He's here to share the story behind a powerful and inclusive event he hosts at the Gremlin Club, one that creates a truly special night for all, especially within the special needs community. Welcome to the show, John.

[B]

Tony, it's nice to see you as always.

[A]

Oh, yes, it's my pleasure to have you on. So give us a little information on what you're doing with the Gremlin Club.

[B]

Now, The Gremlin Club is a small social club down here in West Wales in Carmarthen. They were really looking forward to having some entertainment on a Sunday night. The rest of the week is all filled up. They didn't have anything on a Sunday, so they approached a company called Welsh Factor, which was a talent competition down here. I think they covered most of South Wales and the idea was basically to have a night where the contestants could practice their songs, practice their performances, practice all year round, so that when they get to the Welsh Factor competition, then they were a bit more rehearsed and a bit more polished. The lady who was hosting it was Elise. I think you've met Elise before, a larger than life cabaret singer as well. She knew her trade, so that was the idea behind it. And then of course, because it's in an open pub, then on top of these very accomplished singers, which gave it a standard, you then had all these other pub singers who wanted to come in and have a go. Now, they were not karaoke singers, they were people who genuinely wanted to join in and sing.

[A]

How did you find that to work out with everything you was doing moving forward?

[B]

What we found is that people who were on the circuit or on the Saturday night trade would come in on a Sunday, use the club and again practice songs, try them out, see if they're going to be crowd pleasers. Sometimes you have a song and you think, this is great, the crowd's going to love this and it just dies a death for some reason. And then other times when you're sitting around in a group and somebody gets up and sings a song and everybody's up and singing and the crowds are Dancing. And you think, why isn't that in my set list? So there was a bit of a learning curve for proper singers.

[A]

So while you were seeing this, what was your input and what did you see coming out of it?

[B]

At the time, I was just sitting back watching, my son was joining in singing. I could see these newcomers, some of them had huge confidence issues. I remember one girl, she would walk off the stage crying because she got her words wrong. Everybody was so supportive and cheering everybody on, oh, don't get off the stage. Go and have another go. We'd be fine. And of course then she would get back on when she finished. Then they had the biggest round of applause of the night. So I saw it building confidence. I suddenly realized then this was far more of a karaoke night. It was more community building event. I was seeing people getting more than just singing from what they were getting. It was a way of people could leave their troubles at the door, come in, enjoy some singing, enjoy a bit of fun and then go home slightly better than they came in. As time has gone on, the Welsh Factor folded and at least parted company with Welsh Factor. Now the only target that we've got to hit because we haven't got to train to go into this competition, the only goal now is can we give people as much fun as possible. So now it's a fun night that people can just come in, sing with friends. Everybody's equal. Even we have good singers, we have very, very bad singers sometimes, but they have the same stage time, they have the same attention. Everybody is equal. And that's, that's what I love about it.

[A]

How have you seen it evolve since you have taken over and put it in the direction that you saw it going?

[B]

Yeah, I should, I should talk about that if I, if I can just change the subject for one second. Elise managed to get a diagnosis that she had bowel cancer. She was going to retire. There was nobody to take over. And I thought, well, I can't let this just fold. So from the back of the ranks and from basically from being insignificant in the corner, I said, well, I've got DJing experience. Can I carry on running it? Suddenly then everybody took like five steps back and I was the only one standing, like you see in the Jungle Book, there I was with the spotlight on me. And they said, yeah, as from Sunday night, you're taking over.

[A]

Wow, that's great. So moving forward, how did it work for you?

[B]

What I've seen, I think, because now we don't have the Welsh factor. I love the Welsh factor because we don't have those targets to meet. We're not trying to get people into the music industry, we're not trying to get them into winning compet finding. Now a lot more people want to come in and have a go. There's a lot of people now I've seen. We've got a young lady just joined us about a month ago, 14 years old, plays the guitar, very, very nervous, no stage experience whatsoever. But when she finishes a song, the smile on her face and the applause that goes around the room, I mean, she gets a bigger reception than many of our really accomplished singers. That's just because it's not a sympathy vote. It's the way the crowd are. They are just naturally supportive and really keen to everybody that shot.

[A]

Now, I know that you are a huge supporter of autism and special needs.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Have you seen some from the autistic community come out and support what you're doing and participate?

[B]

Absolutely. I joke about it. I say we are a drop in center for dropouts. This is because many of our audience and singers are. Let me just get my brain in gear there. They may have social disadvantages, they may have some kind of mental health issues. I know we've got one guy who, who's an absolutely amazing singer, but he has schizophrenia and bipolar and somehow that doesn't affect him. When he's on stage, he may be having the worst day possible, but once he comes in the club, gets up singing, he gives this amazing performance. We have one young lady who is 100% blind. She's been blind from birth. Of course it's much harder for her because like a karaoke night, we have the lyrics on a screen. She can't read that, so she has to learn everything and perform it by heart. But somehow nobody really notices. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's great to hear.

[B]

We, we had one night when we didn't have the words on screen and somebody printed them off. We'd go down with sheets of paper like for community singing. And he gave this one to this young lady and she just laughed and said, well, that's no good to me, is it? Suddenly you see his face and think, oh my God. Yeah, I wasn't thinking, I hope I haven't offended you. But that's just the way it is. She is just one of us. And the disadvantages and disab really don't exist. We see past that and whatever your ability, your needs, your religion, your color, your creed, your beliefs, it's all flatlined and everybody's equal and everybody comes in with no preconceived reputations. So some people come in and we've heard about them and we think, oh, these people are going to be trouble again. They start at a zero, same as everybody else, Give them exactly the same stage time, and then everybody kind of earns their stripes. So whatever you got outside the club, that's a whole different issue. When you're in the club and when you're singing. Everybody's equal.

[A]

That's such a great way to look at it.

[B]

I think that's one way that we have to look at our attitude towards discrimination. I'm not a fan of positive discrimination. I'm not a fan of quotas. We've got one girl from Vietnam who's just a bundle of energy. We love it when she comes in. Everybody's equal. If the club ends up 100% Chinese one night, or 100% Asian or 100% Welsh, that's the audience that we've got and welcome one and all. Same with ability. If we have a busload of autistic people, they will be treated exactly the same way as our regular singers. Obviously, there are people who have to have special treatment. For example, if somebody's in a wheelchair, they need to be helped onto the stage. When I say everybody's equal, it's the attitude. The attitude is we treat you equally. But we do realize that people have to have a bit of extra attention to. To make that equality.

[A]

Now that you've got it to this point and it seems to be really going well, what's your plans for the future with it? What do you see it evolving to eventually?

[B]

Honestly, I'm just having fun and that's what we really want out of it. We're not trying to go anywhere. We're not trying to do anything. We just want as many people to come in, have fun and enjoy the night. One thing I'd like to do is attract a bigger audience. For that reason, we don't brand it as a karaoke night because people don't go to karaoke to listen. People go to karaoke to get on stage and sing typical songs very, very badly. As a former karaoke host, I know that the. The first thing you've got to do is get somebody very bad on stage to start the night because suddenly then everybody wants to have a go. Whereas what we're doing is the exact opposite of that. We want to put on a show and have a handful of really good singers or really entertaining singers. I think the entertainment factor is more important. We have several people who are less accomplished singers, should we say, but oh, they're great fun to watch and getting that entertainment out there and letting the audience see these people having fun. And again, to encourage everybody to just leave your troubles and get up here and sing with us.

[A]

Now that this space has evolved beyond a training ground, how has that changed your mindset? Are you leaning more into creativity, taking risks and giving yourself permission to explore without expectations? By doing this, it seems like this shift can create space not just for creativity, but for people to discover what they're truly capable of. Have you tried anything different?

[B]

I tend to have at least three or four group songs on the stage. I look around and think, oh, let's put together maybe a five piece girl band and they all come up on stage and they'll sing together and that's bonding. The people make friends that way. This new person comes in, maybe a bit timid. It's a great way to get them on the stage for the first time and suddenly they feel part of a small family. After they've been on the stage and they know what it's like standing there in the spotlights on their faces, it's much easier to make the second attempt, which will be a solo performance. That's really what I want from it. I want to see people enjoying themselves. I want to see people progress and turn into more confident versions of themselves. If I'm a treadmill to achieve that goal and I see people come and then they become more confident and then they leave and then we see other people coming in and we do it all again, I'm quite happy with that. The smile on people's faces is exactly why I do it.

[A]

Since you're in video production, do you film this?

[B]

We do not for any particular reason. Sometimes it's nice to have it recorded in case there's a particularly good performance or in case somebody says something funny or if I say something funny in the odd occasion, then it's worth having it. Film do tend to put a couple of performances up on Facebook every now and then to let new audiences see what goes on. Also then, because we filmed it, I let people have copies of them so they can go back and analyze their performances, see what went right and what went wrong. Trouble with filming things is it never sounds as good unless you use studio quality recording equipment. You're only basically using it on a telephone. The microphones tend to be fairly poor. So I always say to people, you know, when you listen back, remember you've got the Acoustics of the room, you've got bodies, you've got people talking, you've got background noise. You'll listen to a very sterile performance on your phone. You can overanalyze that sometimes. But they're recorded mostly for nostalgia rather than for anything professional.

[A]

So with it doing so well, how are you promoting it so that people know that they can come and hear all this?

[B]

Badly, is the answer. Most of it is just word of mouth. We tend to have a lot of freebies with our logo on it that we kind of pass around. And if people got a fridge magnet with the Gremlin open mic logo on it, then it becomes a topic of conversation. We've got our Facebook page. There's nobody with any social media experience, so it just organically grows every now and then. And the club tend to promote it on their other nights. So we get a mention on a Saturday night, which is their live events. But apart from that, we really, very, very bad at promoting things. I hear there's a guy out in Nashville called Tony Mantor who I'm going to see if I can have a word with him and see if he'll help us to promote one day.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. We'll promote it any way we can. Now, you mentioned that you have had some autistic people attend, and have you seen that change the way people look at neurodiversity? Now, if you go into the real world that just happens to be outside the club, unfortunately, people still do not understand autism or mental illness. Unfortunately, they have no clue what it is. If they can see those that are autistic and deal with mental illness that are inside that club, hopefully they can get a different perception. Have you seen that change in any way help the perception, even just a little bit, in what you're doing?

[B]

Definitely. I've seen people become a lot more accepted as a result of getting up on stage and singing in the way that the audience accept newcomers and the audience accept really good singers. When somebody gets up and they've got autism, and again, I won't mention names, but there is one lady who is heavily autistic. She speak very well, but, oh, boy, can she sing. And when she gets up and belts a tune out, then I mean, everybody, they set their goals and their expectations lower because of her autism. And as a result, she's just a hero. She's one of the stars of the night. Not necessarily the best singer, not necessarily the best performer, but the audience really, really kind of get behind her and encourage her to go on. I nearly Said her name, then go on, then go for it. And then when she comes off the stage, her smile is infectious. The audience's smile is infectious. And yes, the audience have accepted her as part of our gremlin family. That's just incredible to watch. Somehow people with autism tend to have a lot more confidence than the rest of us. And they're gonna get on that stage whether we like it or not. And they often steal it. Again, the audience reaction to that is always so warm. As you say, if they met outside the club in one of the supermarkets or department stores, they may have just sort of walked down the other aisle. Whereas now it's all kind of accept.

[A]

So you've mentioned that they come off feeling good about themselves. So this is a real confidence builder for them. Have you. Have you seen. I know you've seen this, but how can you. Do you have a story about how someone went on and they were really timid, they were really afraid, and then once they saw that they was accepted, they came off that stage with more confidence than you thought they would ever have.

[B]

There is one lady, again, forgive me if I don't mention her name when I first went there, which would have been 2017, something like that. And obviously we had all the Welsh factor singers who were semi pro. And then this, this one young lady who was quite large, I would always regard her as the friend. She wasn't incredibly good singer and I would have probably overlooked her if it hadn't been for the. The format of the night. Because when she got up and sang, she incredible low register in her voice, I could hear there was something different about her voice. You could sing songs like Yazoo, that kind of Alison Moyer richness of her. Another music mogul who was happened to be there one night, he said, I'm gonna pay for you to have some singing lessons with Elise. And which they didn't do because she didn't need it. But she just kept coming every Sunday and her confidence grew and grew and grew. She's still coming now and she is one of the best singers that we've ever had. Her voice is really exceptional. And she's often now asked to come and guest perform at various charity functions, fetes. You'll often see her headlining or I know for St. David's Day, which is our Welsh patron, the local Welsh male voice choir put on a concert to raise money for charity. And they asked this young lady to come along and be a guest singer. They all gave her flowers. I found out on Sunday she did 11 songs. So it was far more than being a guest singer. She was really fronting this whole male voice choir, which has had about 40 people behind here, 40 men with a big wall of sound. A few years ago, she would have never had the confidence to do that again. She's gone from being quite a timid character right in the background to fronting some fairly big shows.

[A]

Wow, that's awesome. Now, how many people help you put this together?

[B]

The actual running of it is just a small family event now. It's just myself and my son actually do the running of it. My wife is always behind me in everything I do, so even though she's not formally involved, she's there putting out the beer mats with our logos and things on, so. And we really need to mention the committee of the club because they do an amazing job of promoting the night with the various posters, announcements. They have to pay our expenses, obviously, because I live about 40 miles away, so there's transport and things like that to get us up there, so their support as well. But even though they're not direct directly involved in the running of it, there's a lot of people behind it who are making it happen. Ultimately, on the front line, it's just me and Dan, really.

[A]

Now, since you started this, you've got it up and running and it seems to be doing very well. How does it feel that you've taken something that was a completely, totally different animal? So how does it feel that what you started now and what you've created is actually making a difference?

[B]

It feels fantastic. I can't. I can't say anything else apart from that. It's changed because. Well, partly because of my beliefs, but also it was evolution. Elise had to run it the way she did because she was funded by the Welsh factor. So she was quite constrained. It had to be a very, very high quality performance. Whereas when I came in, I was really lucky because I didn't have that noose around my neck. Suddenly I then had the ability to involve everybody in the room because I was then financed by the club. My ultimate goal, as much as we like to think it's all about singing, my ultimate goal is to get money behind the till. So, yeah, my goal was really to attract people in. I had different targets in the way and the way we get people in there is, as I've mentioned before, building this community and building up this everybody's equal attitude where everybody can come along and sing, everybody can sit in the aud, enjoy the night, sit in the audience and sing along. The other thing I think is quite important. I think when you go to a certain karaoke night, you sit in the corner and you think, oh, I hope they don't call me up and you sit there all night worrying. Whereas I make a point of saying, look, if you don't want to come up, fine. Don't put your name down. We've got more than enough singers. If you haven't put your name down, sit back, relax, enjoy your drink, enjoy the music, and, you know, maybe just sing along from where you are. So it's been a kind of an evolution, but the core elements of encouragement and building confidence and accepting everybody for who they are, not what they are, has gone all the way through. And I think the shell may have changed, but the core is still very much the same. And that's not going to change.

[A]

This is based on community. And from what I see, it's a community within a community.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How have you seen the community bond together? Has that community gone out and expanded? By telling more people about what's going on and what you're doing, this could evolve into something even bigger than you ever anticipated.

[B]

I don't see that part, to be perfectly honest. I know very often people do go out and they say, we had a great night on Sunday. Again, I would talk about that male voice choir, and one of the choir performers is one of our regular singers. So very often he'll go out and he must be talking about our nights when they're at choir practice because we've had four or five other members of the choir coming in occasionally to take part. So they must be going out and talking about it and saying what a good night they had. So I suppose in a way we are kind of infiltrating our way into people's conversations, but that's. That's just something that's happened organically rather than my attention. My intention was just to get a bit of fun on a Sunday night.

[A]

Well, that's how organic promotion happens. It just works just that way. So if you would tell everybody where it's at so that they can come out and see you and hopefully support you as well. Oh, yes. One last question. Do you live stream?

[B]

It's not live streamed. And again, that's a conscious decision because I want people to get up on stage and be able to try out something new. And it can be a complete car crash. And if it is a car crash, well, then everybody's gonna whoop and cheer anyway. Again, we've got some very accomplished singers, but they will always try out Something new. If they do try something new and it goes badly, I and get out one of their more popular songs that they've done well, so that at least when they walk off, everybody's heard them singing a good song. And for that reason we don't want it to go out across to the Internet. I want people to have the confidence that they can get up and try things. New singers probably wouldn't want to get up. They had an audience of 20,000 with an audience of 50, 60, maybe 100 people who are cheering for you. It's much easier. So it's not live streamed. The only way you can come in and see the mayhem and enjoy the camaraderie and the chaos, because it is organized chaos and that's part of the magic of it, is to come along to a town in Wales called Carmarthen, which is in West Wales, and the club is called the Gremlin Club, which is right in the town centre. It's a small social club, which, if you know the kind of social clubs that Peter Kay has sent up in his Phoenix Nights, it's exactly like one of that great fun, great people, people, cheap alcohol, that's always a winner. And it happens every Sunday from 8 through till 11. And you can find more information on our Facebook page, which is the Gremlin open mic Sunday.

[A]

Well, this has been a pleasure. I've genuinely enjoyed this conversation and more than that, I've learned a lot about what you're doing today and I know our listeners have too. So I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today, Tony.

[B]

It's been a joy. It's always a joy to come and talk to you and I never need an excuse to talk about myself.

[A]

No, that's great. Well, thanks again. A sincere thank you to our guests for sharing their journey. If today's conversation helped you see the world a little differently, then we're doing exactly what we hope to do. Until next time, keep believing, keep learning, and most importantly, keep asking yourself, why not me?