Rebecca Engle: neurodiversity in the classroom and stories of advocacy

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Tony Mantor – Why Not Me?

Episode: Rebecca Engle – Neurodiversity in the Classroom and Stories of Advocacy

Release Date: April 15, 2026
Host: Tony Mantor
Guest: Rebecca Engle (Autistic educator, author, and neurodiversity advocate)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the lived experience and advocacy of Rebecca Engle—an autistic educator, author, and outspoken proponent for neurodiversity in classrooms. Rebecca discusses her journey from being a nonverbal child to becoming a teacher and published author, openly challenging traditional approaches to supporting neurodivergent students. The conversation explores her innovative classroom methods, the impact of neurotypical expectations on autistic educators and students, her literary work, and the broader mission to make education truly inclusive and empowering.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Childhood, Early Challenges, and Self-Understanding

• Rebecca describes her early years as nonverbal and the misunderstanding she faced from adults who equated her silence with a lack of comprehension.

  "Communication got mistaken for intelligence. Adults assumed my silence meant lack of understanding. And I was clocking everything." (Rebecca, 06:00)

• She explains how unmet needs as a child have led her to “overdo” self-care and structure as an adult, including rigorous routines, strict scheduling, and a heightened focus on bodily regulation (skincare, supplements, chiropractor, etc).

  "I'm very careful about regulating my whole body...I think that's kind of what I mean by the overdoing." (Rebecca, 07:01)

Academic Journey & Barriers in Higher Education

• Despite thriving academically (earning both bachelor’s and master’s degrees), Rebecca faced institutional barriers:

  "During my bachelor's I was told I was too autistic to teach...the director of education at my university pretty much said that I didn't communicate correctly with kids due to my autism, despite having all five star rankings." (Rebecca, 08:04, 08:51)

• This criticism profoundly affected her entry into teaching, prompting her to focus on communication as a professional development goal.

Teaching Experience: Authenticity & Connection

• Rebecca emphasizes openness with her students about her sensory needs and encourages mutual understanding in her classroom.
• She predominantly teaches special education and neurodiverse students in varied settings (self-contained, resource, and dyslexia pullout). Her approach is grounded in authenticity and modeling of regulation strategies.

  "I'm very open with my students...like, 'I'm overwhelmed right now, please stop'. And it goes both ways...you'd be surprised how shockingly open they are to those things." (Rebecca, 09:59)

Navigating and Restructuring the Classroom

• Rebecca describes innovative regulatory systems in her classroom—multiple "calm down corners" with specific sensory tools, supporting a spectrum of needs rather than a one-size-fits-all model.

  "I have three calm down corners. Because not everybody calms down the same way." (Rebecca, 17:56)

• She models her own stimming and regulation techniques, creating an environment where students can openly address overwhelm or meltdown.

  "Sometimes they join in like, 'Oh, we can unmask right now.' Which is awesome." (Rebecca, 15:07)

Systemic Barriers: Pushback from Traditional Approaches

• Rebecca faced institutional resistance for defying standardized behavioral management (i.e., token economies, single calm-down corners). She was forced to leave a teaching position after refusing to use reward/punishment systems she found unethical.

  "Pretty much they wanted me to train them like a dog, like, 'here's a treat every time you do what I say.' And I refused." (Rebecca, 17:56)

• Neurotypical colleagues sometimes fail to provide accommodations or understand the need for individualized support unless children are medicated, which Rebecca criticizes.

Parental Support & Impact

• Parental feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. Rebecca values open dialogue and being a relatable role model for parents and students.

  "I've never had a parent who's upset with me, and that's rare...I feel like a celebrity when I walk through with parents and teachers or students." (Rebecca, 19:58)

Writing as Advocacy: Books & Motivation

• Rebecca’s writing began in college, sparked by the lack of books on autism written by autistic people. She now has four authored books and fifteen co-authorships (including poetry and anthologies).

  "Every children's book I found was written by the mom or the dad or the sibling...it teaches the parents' perspective, but it doesn't teach how the kid feels...So I was like, I'm making my own book." (Rebecca, 21:00)

• Recent notable work includes The Way I Move (about stimming for children) and Stepping in My Shoes (about the school experience as an autistic child; over 15,000 copies sold).

Challenging Systems & Future Vision

• Rebecca’s adult books openly challenge behavioral compliance systems like PBIS and ABA, which attracts controversy.

  "My whole entire lifeline of work is challenging positive behavior intervention supports...I say that all of those are abusive and harm long term development." (Rebecca, 27:29)

• She sees herself as providing a genuine alternative, hoping her regulatory systems become widespread where compliance-based ones are phased out.
• Rebecca has spoken internationally about her methods and has a growing online and in-person presence.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Misunderstanding Non-Verbal Communication

  “Adults assumed my silence meant lack of understanding. And I was clocking everything.” (Rebecca, 06:00)

• On Institutional Bias

  “I was told I was too autistic to teach.” (Rebecca, 08:04)
  “My last two years teaching, communication has been my highest area on my record.” (Rebecca, 08:51)

• On Classroom Innovation

  “Not everybody calms down the same way.” (Rebecca, 17:56)

• On Systemic Resistance

  "They wanted me to train them like a dog, like, 'here’s a treat every time you do what I say.' And I refused." (Rebecca, 17:56)

• On Why Adults Avoid Her Books

  “A lot of my books threaten the system … my children’s books don’t have anything controversial...while my adult books are very much controversial.” (Rebecca, 26:31)

• Closing Wisdom

  "You can't solve every child through compliance. You can't solve every nervous system through compliance. You have to allow for student choice...and move away from compliance-based systems." (Rebecca, 31:01)

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Important Timestamps

• [05:45] – Rebecca’s early years as nonverbal, navigating misunderstandings.
• [08:04–09:38] – Academic journey and overcoming bias that she was “too autistic to teach.”
• [10:00–12:56] – Building connection and mutual understanding in the classroom.
• [14:55] – Rebecca’s meltdown management strategies for herself and students.
• [17:43] – Pushback from neurotypical colleagues; repercussions of defying behaviorist models.
• [19:58] – Parental support and positive relationships with families.
• [20:58–22:55] – Origin and evolution of Rebecca’s writing as autistic advocacy.
• [25:14] – Stepping in My Shoes and its impact.
• [27:29] – Systemic criticism and vision for the future.
• [29:56] – International recognition and expanding her platform.
• [31:01] – Closing wisdom on the necessity of moving beyond compliance.

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How to Connect with Rebecca Engle

• Instagram: @stitchestanzas
• Facebook: stitchesandstanzas
• Website: stitchestanzas.com (coming soon)
• Books: Search “Rebecca Engle” on Amazon for her full catalog

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Final Thoughts

Rebecca Engle’s story is rooted in resilience, authenticity, and a fierce commitment to change education from the inside out. She candidly confronts ableism, advocates for innovative support systems, and offers accessible resources for children and adults alike. Her voice adds a deeply needed perspective to the conversation around neurodiversity in education: one that centers autistic experience, challenges harmful norms, and insists on compassion-led transformation.

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Transcript

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[Tony Mantour]

Welcome to why Not Me? Embracing Autism and Mental Health Worldwide hosted by Tony Mantour, broadcasting from the heart of Music City, usa, Nashville, Tennessee. Join us as our guests share their raw, powerful stories. Some will spark laughter, others will move you to tears. These real life journeys inspire, connect, and remind you that you're never alone. We're igniting a global movement to empower everyone to make a lasting difference by fostering deep awareness, unwavering acceptance, and profound understanding of autism and mental health. Tune in, be inspired, and join us in transforming the world one story at a time. Hi, I'm Tony Mantour. Welcome to why Not Me Embracing Autism and Mental Health Worldwide. Joining us today is Rebecca Engel, an autistic educator, author, and powerful advocate for neurodiversity in education. Rebecca brings both lived experience and professional insight to her work as a teacher, helping students feel seen, understood and supported in systems that weren't always built with them in mind. Through her writing and her classroom work, she challenges outdated narratives around autism and replaces them with honesty, compassion, and practical understanding. Her story is not just about teaching, it's about learning, unlearning, and creating spaces where neurodivergent voices are valued rather than accommodated as an afterthought. This is a conversation about identity, resilience, and what happens when autistic educators step in and help reshape the future of education. For from the Inside out, we'll talk about how she became an author and uses that to help people as well. So before we dive into our episode, we'll be back with an uninterrupted show right after a word from our sponsors

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[Tony Mantour]

Thanks for joining us today.

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, thank you for having me.

[Tony Mantour]

Oh, it's my pleasure. I understand in your early years you were non verbal.

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah.

[Tony Mantour]

Can you share some of the early moments in your life and what challenges helped you create what you have become today?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, so I think having to navigate those struggles, you know, I always had to fight for something. I always had to fight for what I wanted to achieve in life. And my mom will tell you that. She always jokes around that I'm one of her most successful children because I've always had to fight to get everywhere. Communication got mistaken for intelligence. Adults assumed my silence meant lack of understanding. And I was clocking everything. I was clocking the tone, I was clocking the room, I was clocking the roles. So I learned how to clock that as an adult and a lot of my needs went unmet. So I feel like I overdo my needs now. You know, the hunger, pain, the fear, the overwhelm, the sensory overload. A lot of it, you know, just was ignored. So I feel like I overdo self care now. And I'm very aware of when I need things because I overlooked it as a child.

[Tony Mantour]

Okay, so when you say you overdo, can you give us a few examples of what you mean on overdoing some things in your life?

[Rebecca Engel]

Like things that I overdo now?

[Tony Mantour]

Yeah, that works.

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah. So there's days where I just knock out all day long, like I don't want to do anything. I sometimes overdo with skincare. Right. So like I'll buy way too many products to take care of myself. I'll overdo getting supplements, I'll overdo routines. I'm very, very picky with my calendar and my timing and my schedule. I am very careful about, you know, regulating my whole body. I go to the chiropractor every week, which is, you know, something that most people do rarely, if at all. I work out twice a week and I'm very particular about when that happens. So I think that's kind of what I mean by the overdoing.

[Tony Mantour]

Okay. You said that you felt unsupported and you felt kind of secluded in school. What did that do to you? Ultimately you thrived academically because you did get your bachelor's degree Then you got your master's in educational Policy and leadership at Texas Tech, I believe. Can you tell us the steps you took to achieve all this?

[Rebecca Engel]

I'm trying to think of how to best take this question. I think, you know, planning my day, scheduling, being always on top of it was what got me there. But I think, again, I think challenges that I was constantly facing and conflicted with kind of pushed me to keep going. Like, you know, during my bachelor's I was told I was too autistic to teach and I had to graduate, but I wanted insurance. So, you know, I like graduated early. But then I forced myself to immediately start my master's because I wanted to get out.

[Tony Mantour]

Sure, sure, that makes sense. Now why in the world would someone tell you that you're too autistic to teach? You're learning all the things that you need to learn, you're doing your studies, you're figuring it all out. This just does not make sense.

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, it didn't make sense. The director of education at my university pretty much said that I didn't communicate correctly with kids due to my autism, despite having all five star rankings across all of my evaluations, and was just always saying that my communication was off or not there, which actually set me to set a communication goal as my goal when I got to my first year teaching because I was so self conscious about meeting these requirements that I was scared that I was scared that my communication was going to get me, you know, fired and make me lose my job or make me not applicable enough. And funny enough, my last two years teaching communication has been my highest area on my record. So I still to this day have no clue what this woman meant.

[Tony Mantour]

Yes, that's very strange and unprofessional in my opinion. How did it start off for you? You said you was nervous, which is totally understandable. You were going in and working with those kids. So did you start off kind of tentative or did you go in there with confidence and say, hey, this is what it's going to be, this is what we're going to do, and let's see where the chips fall.

[Rebecca Engel]

I was very much, you know, believed in myself and was very much relatable with the children. I teach special education, so I think that helped calm my nerves. I feel like if I were around neurotypical children all the time, I feel like I would have to, to mask or hide my stimming or my communication style and things like that. But I'm very open with my students. Like I'm overwhelmed right now. Please Stop. Right. Or you know, we're allowed to have those conversations. And it goes both ways. And I tell them that at the beginning of the year, like, hey, like, you know, you have sensory needs, but so do I. And this is my background. And a lot of the time you'd be surprised how shockingly open they are to those things.

[Tony Mantour]

That's really good to hear. Now, some kids tend to question others that say they're autistic. Did you have that issue issue or did you find that connection you was hoping for right from the start?

[Rebecca Engel]

I automatically connect. I feel like I teach the younger grades, so I don't think they think of, they don't like question it. And you know, I don't go up to my kids and straight up say I'm autistic and adhd. Right. Because some of them don't even know what those terms are yet. And some of them aren't autistic or ADHD themselves. They have other neurodiverse traits like dyslexia or dysgraphia. Dysia. Right. And so I'm very just like upfront about my sensory needs and things that trigger me or set me off rather than the disability itself. And I feel like they connect with that, like, oh, you know, that noise sets me off too. Or that texture feels weird to me too. Right. Or things that are palatable really to any human but more offsetting for neurodivergent individuals.

[Tony Mantour]

That makes total sense. How long did you teach before you decided to move on to other things?

[Rebecca Engel]

I'm still teaching.

[Tony Mantour]

Oh, you are? That's great. Are you teaching the same age groups as you were before? Better yet, what are some of the challenges you've seen now that you've been in teaching for a few years?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, so I've been teaching for two years now, if you count my student teaching and stuff, a little over three. And I would say that funny enough, I've actually been in a self contained unit. I've been in a resource classroom which is like a pullout setting. And I've been a dyslexia therapist. So I've kind of seen all three sides. Resource, you're pulling out your kids who are autistic, adhd, but not enough for that self contained setting. And of course I've done fifth and sixth grade self contained. I've done three through five resource and co teach, which is like inclusion minutes. So I'm going into the classroom and helping kids 101 in their gen ed setting. And then I've done dyslexia. Pull out for kinder all the way to sixth grade. So I've seen all the grades pretty much from your early primary to sixth. So yeah.

[Tony Mantour]

What were some of the challenges that you felt were or could be bigger than what you thought they might be or how am I going to handle this? So what are some of the challenges that you overcame, either personally or you helped a student overcome some of those challenges?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, some of my challenges as an educator really are handling noise overwhelm, especially in those co teach settings. I had to find the correct environment, right. Because I knew that the 25 to 30 kids at a time, even if I was only working with one, was too much for me. And then of course, in the self contained setting, I had a lot of kids with autism and they had severe needs that need to be met. But not only were they autistic, a lot of them were deaf or blind as well. So I was dealing with the non verbal communication and that and I had never gone through being deaf or blind. Right. So despite being autistic, I had to almost connect like, okay, Becca, well now, you know, take the fact that you were non verbal and imagine if your eyes, you know, didn't work the right way too, or imagine if your ears had a hearing loss. And I was like, oh my gosh, like I kind of had to step into their shoes even more so. And I guess one of the things I thought about was like, I don't know how a neurotypical teacher who doesn't have the background of being neurodivergent also doesn't have the background of being, you know, deaf or blind, steps into these shoes and has to, you know, imagine this classroom or the structure for this child not understanding 100% of them, you know. And so I had to reshape just pulling from my personal experience and really dig into like, how do you teach kids like this? And so I had to take something that I didn't have to in the past. And then for the dyslexia, again, I'm not dyslexic. So I think that that opened a whole nother door. Right. I had to be more open minded than I was with that resource setting because I was the resource kid. And so it was a lot easier for me to navigate that than it was the other two settings because I hadn't lived those settings. I was self contained in pre K, but after that I was gen ed.

[Tony Mantour]

So, okay, being autistic yourself. Autistic people are known to have their meltdowns. Have you had situations where you Were in the middle of a class, you felt a meltdown coming on. How did you handle that?

[Rebecca Engel]

Oh, that's a good question. I have a color coded card next to me at my kidney table. So if I have a moment like that, I can show it to my students. And they tend to know sometimes I'll do this and my kids immediately know. Like I'll put my hands up for those maybe listening, auditory only. And I'll close my eyes and they'll be like, oh, they, they know, like, oh, Ms. Ingles overstimulated. And so they'll, they'll kind of reset. Or one of my other kids will be like, hey, like, look, she's overwhelmed. Like, like pointing at me. Or I say, take a minute and read this real fast. I'm going to take a second. And they know. I mean, that's one of the best parts about teaching neurodivergent kids is because I can do the same thing with them or you know, if I stim like this or you know, rub my hands together or whatever, they're well aware of why I would be doing that. And sometimes they join in like, oh, we can unmask right now. Which is awesome.

[Tony Mantour]

Okay, we've covered your meltdowns. Now what about the kids? Because they're not adults, they are going to handle their meltdowns completely differently than you might. So how do you help them through their meltdowns so that everything's okay and you can move forward with your class?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, I have a regulational system which is available on my teachers, pay teachers, but it's pretty much a three zone system. So it starts with regulating their nervous system. The one area is full of weighted tools and activities. The other one is full of like sensory supports with calming, so like maybe running in a circle or repeated motion of the body while the other one is noise seeking. And then the third area is like journaling, releasing my emotions, drawing. And the whole goal is that they're more comfortable than your desk seat. So a lot of my students know to follow that system and I slowly teach them that system and I actually model it when I'm overwhelmed. And so they're like, oh, okay, missingle's doing it. Let's join her if they need it. And some of my kids, I'm just like, are you not ready right now to learn when they're going through a hard time? Kids stop processing when they're not ready to learn. I can get them to sit still and comply, but they're not going to actually pick up anything. I'M teaching them at a certain point and so I'll just say like, go relax, go calm your body. Go make sure that you're okay. They know their, their areas that they're allowed to be in. I don't really have strict rules on that. You know, don't be a distraction. And we're good. And then, you know, I call them in the next day and I remind them of, you know, like, hey, this is what we did yesterday. Are you ready to learn it today? And most of the time if you just say, okay, I'm not even going to force you within five or ten minutes, they're like, oh, I'm ready now. And I didn't even have to fight them to try. But they watch their peers and they're like, whoa, they're having fun. Oh wow, they're enjoying themselves. And they end up joining into the lesson. So sometimes it doesn't even take the full class.

[Tony Mantour]

Okay, now what about some of the neurotypical teachers? Have you had any of them that questioned what you were doing or they just do not understand what you're doing? How have you handled that?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, so funny enough, the reason I've been in three classroom settings in two educational years is because my second job, they actually forced me to resign. I was following that three space model and they told me, you need to have one calm down corner. I was like, but I don't believe in one calm down corner. I have three calm down corner. Because not everybody calms down the same way. And so I was in an autism unit and I got all six autistic children that were self contained to actually attend gen ed classes all day long with support. But the fact that I was able to do that by October was considered impressive. They would come back and regulate and then go back to class. I mean, they had their moments and they knew that they were allowed to come back whenever they needed to. But naturally they were internally motivated to stay in class. And the neurotypical teachers said, you need one calm down corner. And the neurotypical district leaders said, you need one calm down corner. And you need to use tokens. You need tokens to control the kids. So every time they, you know, come back, but you tell them to know that they have to stay in class, you take a token away. And pretty much they wanted me to train them like a dog, like, here's a treat every time you do what I say every day of the week. And I refused. I said, no, this is my system. All of my kids get a treat at the end of the day, regardless of how today went. A thank you for being here in the morning and a thank you for being here at the end of the day. And it has nothing to do with their behavior. And my district was very much against it. So I ended up having to leave the school I was at. They called me into a meeting with hr, and they said, you can either grow on a growth plan to learn how we do things, or we can have you resigned. And I was like, okay, I'll peacefully leave. So I did leave. So I've had neurotypicals misunderstand. I've also had neurotypical teachers tell me that they will not provide accommodations to a student with autism or ADHD unless they are medicated.

[Tony Mantour]

Wow. Now, what about their parents? Because you're autistic, they should see that you understand them better than the other teachers, and that should have made a difference. Did you get the support from them right away?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah. So I've mostly taught with children that are homeless or in poverty. So I've had a mix of parental involvement. However, when my parents are involved or talking to me, I've never had a parent who's upset with me, and that's rare. As a special ed teacher, I feel like I've never had an advocate sit in a meeting. I've always had supportive parents and parents who, you know, thank me. I've had parents thank me for being young, like, who are just happy that their teacher is under a certain age. I've had parents just meet with me and ask me about my autism, and I'm very open with them. I love it. Like, I love that I have that connection with my students. And, you know, I feel like a celebrity when I walk through with parents and teachers or students, because it's parents and students are always, like, screaming my name. And so it's. It's like feeling like a celebrity while I walk down the hallway. Especially, like, during student awards and things like that.

[Tony Mantour]

Yeah, I think that's really cool. That's awesome. At what point did you start to write about your experiences? When did you start doing that?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, so my college years really inspired that. I was actually a volunteer with a refugee group in San Antonio. It was required for my history degree under my bachelor's degree, because I had bachelor's degree in history and one in education. And one of the requirements for this degree was that I had to do, like, 300 hours with refugees in order to do those 300 hours. I went to a tutoring maroon at an elementary school and worked with these Refugee students. One of my college professors was like, we need you to write a book on books good to teach kids with autism or kids about autism. And every book I found was written by someone who was not autistic. Every children's book I found was written by the mom or the dad or the sibling of or the cousin of. And I was just like, why? Like, how does this genuinely teach kids about autism? Like, it teaches the parents perspective, but it doesn't teach how the kid feels. And so I was like, Prof. I can't do this. Like, this doesn't exist. And so I was like, I'm making my own book. And so one of my college professors, Dr. David Campos, he handed me a book that he was inspired by that was written by someone who was deaf, and it was like a children's graphic novel. And he was like, you need to read this and inspire your book. So I inspired my own writing from that and wrote it and published it. And then people were like, you know, you speak out against these token economies and these behavior charts, but why? And so I was like, well, that's book number two. Then I just never stopped. I had people come to me who were like, I want to share my disability story, but I don't know how. So then I made an anthology, and then people started asking me about stimming, and I was like, oh, like I should make a book out of that. So that's my most recent release.

[Tony Mantour]

Okay, so let's talk about that a little bit more. Your recent release, can you give us a little insight on what it is, what it's about, and a little bit on what people can expect about what's in it?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah. My most recent release is the Way I Move. And it's literally about stimming and the body movements of stimming and talks about, like, why we stim, how we stim. But I have some neurological definitions in the front so that you can understand the neurology behind the stimming and the movement. Also, it's very child friendly for kids to read. But ultimately, it's this little girl who's based on me named Riley. And Riley goes through the day, and she's stimming at different things. She's feeling different textures in the grocery store. She's going to different, you know, different things at our house. And then ultimately they cause her to stim. And so it's very. Just talks about the ways we stim, how we stim, what causes us to stim. And I'm very clear about everybody stimming differently.

[Tony Mantour]

Sure. I think that's awesome. Now, how many pages do your books have?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, so both my children's books are around 30 to 35 pages, and my adult books are anywhere from 150 to 180.

[Tony Mantour]

Oh, that's perfect. How many books do you have total?

[Rebecca Engel]

I have four books I've written and 15 that I've co authored.

[Tony Mantour]

Okay, now let's dig a little bit into your books that you have co authored. Are they the same topics? Can you give us a little background on them?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah. So a lot of my books that are co authored are poetry. I was a part of a group called the Unsealed, and I literally entered these competitions to win money for college. And they came and they were like, hey, we're gonna actually publish you. And then Carrie Margroe, a popular voice, I entered his scholarship, and he was like, hey, I'm publishing your voice too. So he put my story in a book of his, and then the Unsealed put my story in their books. And then I was invited by Dr. Shila day out of San Diego, California, to publish a book called Women of Purpose. And it was her first ever one. And this book is very successful. When I was invited by her to publish, I still had only published one book of my own. And then I had co authored nine poetry books at that point through the unsealed, and it was just contest. I entered them, publishing them, and Shila invited me to collaborate on her second book because one of her authors dropped out. And so she was like, oh, you can be on my second one. So that's mostly how that came about. And then I've been quoted in other works and stuff, just accidentally.

[Tony Mantour]

I think that's awesome. Now you have one that's called Stepping in My Shoes, right?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yes.

[Tony Mantour]

Can you give us a little background on that? I'm sure it sounds like something that means walk in my shoes for a while and maybe you'll understand.

[Rebecca Engel]

Yes. Yeah. So that's my first ever children's book. We've sold 15,000 copies of that book.

[Tony Mantour]

Wow. Nice.

[Rebecca Engel]

And that came out in October of 2024. And that book is very centered on literally, like, walking into the shoes of what it's like to go to school as an autistic.

[Tony Mantour]

Okay.

[Rebecca Engel]

And so that's the one that college inspired me to write.

[Tony Mantour]

Nice. Now, are you self publishing, or do you have a publisher?

[Rebecca Engel]

I have a hybrid publisher now. When I first started publishing, it was me. Just me.

[Tony Mantour]

Yeah. That's great. So you have someone that's helping you now yeah. Do you have illustration in your books or is it mostly just words?

[Rebecca Engel]

Both of my children's books are fully illustrated and then the other two books are no illustrations because they're adult books

[Tony Mantour]

except for the COVID Now which does better, your books for the children or the ones for the adults?

[Rebecca Engel]

My children's books do better than my adult books.

[Tony Mantour]

What do you think the reasoning is that the adults don't dig a little deeper and read your books so they can understand more? Is it because you think they might not understand or what do you think the reasoning is behind this?

[Rebecca Engel]

I think there's a fear of change. I think that a lot of people fear changing the system. Right. We know something is the way it is and it's going to stay that way. And a lot of my books threaten the system. You know, the school to prison pipelines are threatened. The behavior system is threatened. PBIS, which started in 1990 is threatened. ABA is threatened. And I feel like we fear those changes. And my children's books don't have anything controversial. Right. This is what it's like to be autistic in school and how I talk and then the other one is how I move. So, you know, stimming is something everyone knows about and so is being autistic. Right. Like communicating with a device or communicating with, you know, your hands. Like we are well aware those two things exist. They're not controversial. While my adult books are very much controversial.

[Tony Mantour]

What is it that you dig into that's so controversial? You say you're challenging the system. How are you addressing the system that is so controversial?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, so my whole entire like lifeline of work is challenging positive behavior intervention supports then. Actually my shirt speaks to it. I'm not a behavior chart. I'm not a point system. I'm not a principal award, I'm not a classroom token. And schools rely on these systems heavily. You'll see that, you know, like you have perfect attendance awards and AB honor roll. And I speak and say that all of those are abusive and harm long term development. And a lot of people are like, well but you know, there's this and this and this and this and people attack me. I mean, both of my children's books are rate five stars and my other two books are 3.5 and 4.2. And there's a reason for that.

[Tony Mantour]

Well, I think that you're not wrong. I think the system does need to be challenged at times. I've been doing this podcast for about two and a half years now. When I first started, I knew Nothing about autism at all. Now, I've heard and seen so many people take so many different paths to get where they wanted to get for their children and themselves. There really is no right or wrong path. It really comes down to what works for you. Sometimes people want to do it a certain way, and it's almost like trying to put a round peg in a square hole. It just doesn't work. What do you see in the future for what you are doing? You're trying to change the system to make it better for the kids and getting a little bit of pushback. So how do you see this going and what do you see happening for your future?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, you know, I expect at certain points to be canceled or attacked. I already have been multiple times. I definitely, you know, expect to see the change, though. I think that the louder my voice is out there, that the more people will open their eyes. I've had hundreds of people, even people who practice pbis, say, hey, like, you gave me a soluble solution to get rid of this system, and so now I'm going to use the system that is created by you. Right. And I think that that was the biggest problem in this fight, is that, you know, so many people are like, I hate pbis. Don't use it. But what are we using in. And I feel like that's what I bring to this fight. And so my hope is that the instead that I've brought and what I've designed is used instead of this PBIS system. And I think that over time, I'll see that adaptation.

[Tony Mantour]

Yeah, that's great. Now, how do you see this expanding? Do you see this expanding past your local area and then hopefully to a national stage, or do you see it maybe even going worldwide?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah. So I've spoken internationally. I've spoken in all the way virtually through Zoom. I've spoken in New Zealand. There's people in Canada who have my voice that have been published with me. I have following in different parts of Asia. I have a platform pretty widespread. This year, I'll be in California. I'll be in Minnesota, virtually. Tennessee, virtually. I just heard back from a conference in Rhode island. So, yeah.

[Tony Mantour]

That's awesome. I love it. How can people contact you and most importantly, how can they follow you to see what you're doing?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah. So my Facebook is stitchesandstanzas, my Instagram is stitchestanzas, and I'll have a website which is coming soon. It's stitchestanzas.com.

[Tony Mantour]

perfect. Now, how do they find your books and where can they get them.

[Rebecca Engel]

So if you just look up Rebecca Engel on Google, my Amazon link is the first link you'll see and you can find all four of my writing.

[Tony Mantour]

Awesome. Now, in closing, what is important that you think our listeners need to hear not only about your writings but what you are trying to do moving forward?

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, I think that ultimately what I want people to understand is you can't solve every child through compliance. You can't solve every nervous system through compliance. You have to allow for student choice, you have to allow for neurodivergent choice, but you also have to move away from compliance based systems in order to do that.

[Tony Mantour]

Yeah. Well, this has been great, great conversation, great information. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today.

[Rebecca Engel]

Yeah, thank you for having me.

[Tony Mantour]

Oh, it's been my pleasure. Thanks again. Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know someone who has a story to share, tell them to contact us at WhyNotMe World. One last thing. Spread the word about why not me. Our conversations, our inspiring guests that show you are are not alone in this world.

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[Tony Mantour]

if you like the show, please take

[Rebecca Engel]

a moment to rate, review and subscribe.

[Tony Mantour]

It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.