Falling after Rocky Marciano

Summary

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Total Fighter – Episode 5: Falling after Rocky Marciano

Host: Ricky Mulvey
Air Date: August 28, 2020
Theme: The final chapter of Ezzard Charles’ boxing journey and life after fame—a portrait of resilience, humility, and grace in the face of public neglect, personal hardship, and physical decline.

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Episode Overview

This concluding episode of "Total Fighter" explores what happened to Ezzard Charles, Cincinnati’s heavyweight boxing champion, after he dethroned Joe Louis. Host Ricky Mulvey traces Charles’ story from his peak in the ring through personal decline, touching on his underappreciated fighting style, financial struggles, post-boxing career, and the dignified way he conducted himself in the face of adversity. Family members, boxing historians, and Charles’ son give depth and context to his journey, while the episode meditates on the meaning of legacy beyond mere glory.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Burden of Being the Champ After Joe Louis

• Style vs. Public Perception (00:51 - 01:51):

  • Ezzard Charles was a methodical, technical boxer, lacking the knockout glamor of Joe Louis, which led to public indifference and even derision.
  • "Charles is competent, but provides few thrills. As a result, he lacks crowd appeal, a fact that has made Hazard perhaps the most underrated champion of all time." – William Dettloff (00:51)
  • Ezzard’s very name became an insult in pop culture, underlining his struggle for recognition.

• Underdog and Underappreciated (01:51 - 02:35):

  • The boxing press consistently dismissed Charles—both before and after his victory over Lewis.
  • "He realized that ... it was never going to be the case because he wasn't Joe Louis." – Ray Arcel (02:35)

Title Defenses, Gangster Control, and Cincinnati’s Last Hurrah

• Cincinnati’s Title Fight and Gangster Influence (02:47 - 05:08):

  • Charles’ defense against Nick Barone was historic for Cincinnati but hampered by mafia-controlled boxing syndicates, financial exploitation, and bad weather.
  • Promoter Clarence Becker made little profit without television rights.

• Ezzard’s Generosity and Financial Missteps (05:08 - 05:59):

  • Ezzard traveled with a large entourage, often giving freely and being taken advantage of.
  • "Sometimes he loved people where they took advantage of him too much." – Ezzard Charles II (05:29)
  • "He gave too much of himself." – Ezzard Charles II (05:29)

More Challenges: Booed by Crowds, the Curse of Not Being Joe Louis

• Crowds’ Frustration (06:31 - 07:24):

  • Even after dominant wins, Charles was booed—not for poor performance, but because he didn’t emulate Joe Louis’ style.
  • “I'll keep on winning, and maybe the people will give me the full recognition as champion.” – Ezzard Charles (06:58)

• Pioneering Integration (07:38 - 08:02):

  • Charles became the first Black man to hang out in Manhattan’s famed Toots Shor’s bar, reflecting both progress and continuing racial barriers in sports.

Brutal Politics and the End of His Championship Reign

• The Walcott Rivalry (08:19 - 12:54):

  • Charles lost to Jersey Joe Walcott in a stunning KO, then dropped their final encounter as well.
  • "Walkett unleashed a left uppercut and landed on Ezzard's chin with crushing force. The crowds had finally gotten what they wanted..." – Ricky Mulvey (10:56)
  • Post-fight, Charles is devastated but not broken, determined to fight again.

• Mob Violence & Boxing Business (12:43 - 14:05):

  • Trainer Ray Arcel’s beating by mobsters illustrates underworld control. Charles’ opportunities shrink as matchmakers try to turn him into a “gatekeeper.”

• Racism and Injustice on the Road (13:46 - 14:13):

  • Charles and his team face blatant discrimination in hotels—stories relayed first-hand by family.

The Marciano Fights: Final Glory and its Price

• First Marciano Fight: Redemption in Battle (15:47 - 17:12):

  • Charles gives Marciano his toughest fight, risking all in a dramatic display of heart and skill.
  • "What everybody was freaked out about and happy about was Ezzard fought in a way that they all... wanted him to fight all along." – Ray Arcel (15:47)

• Second Marciano Fight: The Tipping Point (18:11 - 20:08):

  • Charles is stopped in the rematch, physically and emotionally diminished.
  • “Marciano knocked out EZ in the eighth round. And that would be the Cincinnati Cobra's last shot at the heavyweight title.” – Ricky Mulvey (20:08)

After the Spotlight: Struggle, Dignity, and Family

• Financial and Emotional Fall (22:14 - 23:44):

  • Money gone, Charles moves from champion to selling cars—the "Dodge boy"—and then a DMV examiner, finding dignity in ordinary work.
  • "He struggled a little bit. He worked at Esterman and Dodge. He was one of the first African American Dodge salesmans that Dodge had in the Midwest." – Ezzard Charles II (23:30)

• Segregation and Resilience (24:14 - 24:40):

  • Charles never forgot racial barriers but set an example for his own children about self-respect and equality.

• Muhammad Ali’s Neighbor and Student (24:58 - 26:26):

  • Ali, living nearby, sought to learn from Charles, notably the “twister punch.”
  • "He asked my father... if he would teach him the twister punch so he could bring cuts on a person quickly." – Ezzard Charles II (26:26)

• Personal Priorities and Keeping Quiet (26:46 - 27:43):

  • Charles downplayed his own legend, focusing on family and steady work, taking pride in passing a social worker exam later on.
  • "He was so proud because he said they was down there taking a test with college guys when they hired him. ... He had a high school diploma, that's all." – Ezzard Charles II (27:25)

Illness, Legacy, and Family Bonds

• ALS and Caregiving (28:18 - 29:06):

  • Charles’ decline from ALS highlighted the devotion of his wife, Gladys, and the family’s enduring optimism amid hardship.

• Strength of Character (29:06 - 30:36):

  • Charles’ gentle, respectful approach—never abusing power—gave his son lessons that shaped his own life and career.
  • "Had I been an ass, who knows what would have happened to me? ... I treated guys right. I gave them what they had coming. ... So had I been in the ass, who knows what would have happened to me, right? They might have shot me." – Ezzard Charles II (29:17, 30:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “But the goal of this show is to show you why Ezzard's end is really worth admiring.” – Ricky Mulvey (00:18)
• “Beating Joe Louis, that was unforgivable.” – Ricky Mulvey (02:47)
• “EZ was just too damn nice to suspect that the guys who asked him to borrow 30 bucks a day at the Cotton Club were junkies, not actually his friends.” – Ricky Mulvey (05:59)
• “He didn't fire the public imagination.” – Earl Lofquist, via Mulvey (01:29)
• “I thought I won big. But out of respect and admiration for Lewis, I never felt bad about not getting the decision. I think anyone that dethroned him would be the most hated guy in the…” – Jersey Joe Walcott, via Mulvey (02:47)
• “He wasn't popular on a big scale is not the same as saying he wasn't still looked upon as a hometown boy who made good.” – William Dettloff (07:24)
• “Gladys cried, did they really count me out? EZ asked his manager, Jake Mintz. Yeah, he said.” – Ricky Mulvey (11:11)
• “Fighters can't do anything else, what else are they gonna do?” – Ray Arcel (21:04)
• “She didn't bring us that, that father, your damn father, you know, she... She wasn't like that. She was just peaceful and taking care of us. I thought we were having fun.” – Ezzard Charles II, on his mother Gladys (22:30)
• “He made good money as a fighter, but he shared it casually, made investments with his heart, paid high taxes, and lived in the moment.” – Ricky Mulvey (24:05)
• "He remembered a time when he wasn't allowed to sit on the front of a bus. So, you know, he knew those things, and he knew what Dr. King was trying to do..." – Ezzard Charles II (24:14)

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Important Timestamps

• Ezzard’s struggle for recognition: 00:51 – 02:47
• Barone fight/Cincinnati Gardens & financial woes: 02:47 – 05:08
• Public reaction to Ezzard’s style: 05:59 – 06:58
• Walcott rematch & knockout: 08:19 – 10:56
• Ray Arcel mob assault & politics of boxing: 12:43 – 14:05
• Marciano fights (glory, decline, and legacy): 15:47 – 20:08
• Career decline: journeyman fights to odd jobs: 22:14 – 23:44
• Life lessons from segregation, his example: 24:14 – 24:40
• Muhammad Ali anecdotes: 24:58 – 26:26
• Battle with ALS and family care: 28:18 – 29:06
• Legacy—personal and community: 30:36

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Summary – The Heart of the Episode

Ezzard Charles’ life story, as told in this episode, is more than a classic boxing tragedy—it's a portrait of rare grace. After carving a historic legacy in the ring, Charles endured neglect from the public that once cheered him, financial ruin exacerbated by generosity, and the immense physical suffering of ALS. He responded not with bitterness but with humility, fortitude, and a deep love for his family. Even as younger fighters and the public moved on, Charles’ quiet example of integrity and perseverance endured. Today, Cincinnati remembers him not just as the “Cincinnati Cobra,” but as an emblem of mental strength, dignity, and the paternal spirit of the city.

“To me, he's the enduring symbol of mental fortitude and is the paternal spirit of Cincinnati, Ohio.” – Ricky Mulvey (30:36)

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For further reading:

Ezzard Charles: A Boxing Life by William Dettloff
Learn more about Ezzard Charles’ statue campaign at ezzardcharles.org

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Transcript

[Ricky Mulvey]

Why do you think your mother and father ultimately left Cincinnati for Chicago?

[Ezzard Charles II]

Oh, because there was nothing happening down there. And the people who he gave to would walk across the street when they saw him coming and not go out so they wouldn't see him.

[Ricky Mulvey]

This is episode five and the final episode of this season of Total Fighter, a limited series about Ezra Charles. My name is Ricky Mulvey. This show will focus on Ezzard after he took the heavyweight title from Joe Louis. From fighting in Yankee Stadium to a high school gymnasium in Lincoln Heights, Ohio. From giving $30 tips to struggling to make rent in Chicago. But the goal of this show is to show you why Ezzard's end is really worth admiring.

[William Dettloff]

Charles is competent, but provides few thrills. As a result, he lacks crowd appeal, a fact that has made Hazard perhaps the most underrated champion of all time.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Frank sinatra took an 18 year old actress, Joan Blackman, to a movie premiere. A newspaper writer asked Sinatra the name of his date. Sinatra answered, Ezra Charles. The next morning, the Los Angeles Mirror News captioned a photo of her. Ezzard was an eyeful in a shocking pink gown, shoes, coat and lipstick. That's because Ezzard's name had become even more of an insult. As the undisputed champ, Ezzard had a different style than Lewis, who was known for his one punch knockout power. Ezra was long and lean, shy. He poisoned his opponents will by peppering them with countershots. Ezzard was a cobra. Lewis was a B52 bomber. Lewis was the face of America in propaganda films. In World War II, Ezra drove a truck and cleaned latrines in North Africa. The sad reality is that he does not fire the public imagination, wrote Earl Lofquist of the Providence Journal.

[Ezzard Charles II]

And his style was not that of Joe Lewis. Joe Louis was a knockout guy. So it was two conflicting styles. Charles more methodical playing the rounds. But you know, at the time, that's what it came down to.

[Ricky Mulvey]

That's Kevin Grace, an archivist at the University of Cincinnati and the author of Cincinnati Boxing. Newspaper writers claimed that Charles was a middling fighter in a heavyweight division with no real talent. Before his fight with Lewis, no writers said that Charles had a shot at winning. But afterward, those same writers said that Charles only won because he beat up a balding and aged Lewis. Here's William Dettloff, author of Ezra A Boxing Life.

[Ray Arcel]

He came right out and said, I thought that when I was champ and after I beat Lewis, you guys would kind of appreciate me. But at some point he realized that it was never Was never going to be the case because he wasn't Joe Louis. And he wasn't the kind of fighter

[Ricky Mulvey]

that Joe Louis was as attended his celebratory parades and he had a belt. But beating Joe Louis, that was unforgivable. Jersey Joe Walcott lost a gift decision to Lewis. And he later said, I thought I won big. But out of respect and admiration for Lewis, I never felt bad about not getting the decision. I think anyone that dethroned him would be the most hated guy in the. Charles. Next defense came against Nick Barone in the Cincinnati Gardens. Barone, a heavy underdog, was a top 10 light heavyweight whose toughness compensated for his lack of technical skill. The fight was a special occasion for Cincinnati. The last heavyweight championship here was a John Sullivan fight in 1880 when prize fighting was illegal. And these bouts happened in sort of 19th century fight clubs. John Sullivan's fight in Cincinnati took place without a ring. The crowd pushed the fighters when they got too close. And only 30 people attended the secret event. But anyway, Ezzard's Cincinnati promoters pushed for the Barone title defense to take place at the Cincinnati Gardens. They were finally willing to play ball with the gangsters at the International Boxing Club. The guys who really owned the heavyweight championship. And of course, those gangsters squeezed the Cincinnati promoters. Becker had agreed to pay the IBC 25% of his profit. And and for the money, the IBC refused to allow Becker to televise the fight. And Charles lost his chance to fight a game contender in front of a national audience. But if Becker had permission to sell the television rights, he might have been able to make some money. But instead, the Cincinnati Gardens was a few fans short of a sellout. The snow and ice kept some of them at home. And without revenue from the television rights, those promoters cleared about $600 for promoting a heavyweight title. And that match in 1950 would be the last major heavyweight bout to take place in Cincinnati. Barone proved his toughness for 10 rounds. He was a marine who knew how to slug, but wasn't as skilled as a boxer. His engine burned out in the 11th round when EZ knocked him out in front of the screaming crowd at Cincinnati Gardens. And after the fight, a reporter asked Charles to compare his challenger to his other opponents. Charles credited Barone's strength, but then added, why ask me about that stuff? I'm no authority on boxing, But EZ was finally making great money. And the people around him knew, I

[Ray Arcel]

think that Gladys enjoyed very much being the wife of the heavyweight champion, right. And enjoyed wearing brand New clothes and lots of nice jewelry and fur coats.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Again, that's William Dettlaff. Ezzard regularly traveled with a large entourage. He was more than happy to pick up the tab, give out loans and invest in friends, businesses.

[Ezzard Charles II]

Sometimes he loved people where they took advantage of him too much. He gave too much of himself. But I mean, how much? Halfway, you say he gave too much of yourself.

[Ricky Mulvey]

That's Ezzard Charles, son, the minister Ezzard Charles. You also heard him at the beginning of the episode.

[Ezzard Charles II]

Ezra Charles had 10 guys around with him all the time. I don't know where they came from or what, but wherever he went, they were there freeloading.

[Ricky Mulvey]

And all the time, that's Ray Arcel on the Dick Cavett Show. Arcel was one of Ezzard's trainers. EZ was just too damn nice to suspect that the guys who asked him to borrow 30 bucks a day at the Cotton Club were junkies, not actually his friends. He tipped heavy because he knew the expectations of being the champ in his next fight. EZ returned to Madison Square Garden. He easily dispatched his challenger, the brutish Lee Oma, on national television. MSG's box, of course, were owned by the International Boxing Club.

[William Dettloff]

Is it Charles, the world's heavyweight champion, looking fit, full of fight.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Like the other challengers, Omer ran out of steam.

[William Dettloff]

Another wicket left and another left. Omer goes reeling, and it looks as though referee Ruby Goldstein has stopped the fight. He has. Omer staggers dazedly to his corner, apparently surprised by the suddenness of the finish. Lee argues with the ring official, but he's clearly taken far too many smashes on the chin to be able to

[Ricky Mulvey]

continue after that knockout. The crowd did not love him because the heavyweight division didn't have enough talented contenders. Because Lee Oma hiked up his trunks and it looked like EZ hit him low. But the crowd booed Charles after the fight primarily because he was not Joe Louis. Ezrid said after the fight, I'll keep on winning, and maybe the people will give me the full recognition as champion. Maybe I'll show them more next time. But still, being the heavyweight champion had its benefits.

[Ray Arcel]

To say that he wasn't popular on a big scale is not the same as saying he wasn't still looked upon as a hometown boy who made good. Clearly, there were plenty of people in Cincinnati who revered Charles and looked up to him because he was a Cincinnati boy.

[Ricky Mulvey]

That's William Dettloff, author of Ezra Charles A Boxing Life. Ezra Charles would be the first black man to hang out in two Shore's famous midtown Manhattan bar. One of Ezzard's trainers, Ray Arcel, knew Toots and had to clear it ahead of time. Arcel said, would any black guy in off the street be served without a problem? I don't know, but Toots knew me. And a heavyweight champion was a heavyweight champion.

[Ray Arcel]

He generated no excitement at heavyweight. People didn't like that. He couldn't knock people out at any moment like he wanted to, like Joe Louis did. He had no personality to speak of, right? Not like Archie Moore did, or even Lewis, who had a certain again, quiet still with charisma.

[Ricky Mulvey]

One idea to drum up some excitement for a Charles fight was to throw Joe Louis at him again. But money managers and injuries got in the way. EZ ripped through a couple of contenders in the meantime, and the IBC set Charles up with his old dancing partner Jersey Joe for another fight. It was Walcott's fifth crack at the crown and his third shot against Charles. EZ's manager, Jake Mintz, didn't want that fight. It's tough to beat a top level fighter twice, much less three times, mintz said. He's the toughest of challengers, but Charles wants to fight him, so here we are. For EZ's entire career he was the antithesis of a hand picked opponent, so he had little interest in fighting soft challengers. This fight though, marked Ezzard's ninth title defense and the 37 year old Walcott was a 71 underdog. Newspaper writers gave Walcott the disparaging nickname Pappy. This time Walcott played some mind games with Charles before the fight. He said the two decisions were gifts. This led Ezzard to promise an early knockout. Maybe that promotional strategy worked because fans were hungry to watch that fight and 28,000 turned out at Pittsburgh's Forbes Field to watch Ezzard defend his title against the scrappy journeyman.

[William Dettloff]

Joe's early career was a string of hardship after hardship. For a year and a half he was forced to accept nine and a half dollars in weekly relief checks in order to feed his wife and six children. In between comebacks, Walkett held a number of construction jobs, drove an ice truck, mixed cement, labored for the wpa.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Jersey Joe had a new confidence and a more straightforward style.

[William Dettloff]

Walcott packs most of his extra poundage in his huge arms and shoulders. Lot of power there.

[Ricky Mulvey]

He tapped his gloves together before initiating exchanges in the first round. Walcott laid on the pressure early and thick.

[William Dettloff]

So far Ezzard has failed to display the sharpness he demonstrated in his previous

[Ricky Mulvey]

encounters with J. Winding EZ with body blows in the third and bloodied the champ's mouth with his jab. Ezrit started to slow. He wasn't winning in the clinch like he did in previous fights.

[William Dettloff]

Ezra's about to dig back to the body at short range. But again Walcott ties him up.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Jersey Joe learned to time his counter strikes and get in under him.

[William Dettloff]

You'll see Charles try a right, but Walker was backing away. Ezra Childs leads his corner.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Didn't look remarkable from the start. Charles came in swinging, Joe pushed him backward. And Walcott walked EZ down with his hands low, as if he were out for a casual stroll.

[William Dettloff]

Walkett senses his foes failing strength.

[Ricky Mulvey]

EZ threw a quick jab but left his chin hanging for a moment too long.

[William Dettloff]

Now watch. Walcott's about to fire a left hook to the jaw.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Walcutt unleashed a left uppercut and landed on Ezzard's chin with crushing force. The crowds had finally gotten what they wanted. The Cincinnati Cobra unconscious with his face against the canvas. And EZ tried to get up on the count of nine, but he lost his balance. Jersey Joe told the Fort Wayne Journal that his only thought was, quote, thank God, this is it. EZ hung his head in the dressing room afterward, getting through his booming headache. Gladys cried, did they really count me out? EZ asked his manager, Jake Mintz. Yeah, he said. EZ didn't stop. He couldn't stop. With a couple of wins, he'd be right back in the title contention. He still had great cornermen, the loyal Jimmy Brown. And Ray. Arcel was still hanging on for the extra cash. In addition to training, by the way, Arcel started promoting Saturday Night Fights on abc. The International Boxing Club owned the television rights for the major boxing matches on cbs with the club's gangsters did not welcome the competition. On September 19, 1953, two hooded men ran behind Ray Arcel and beat him with a lead pipe. They fractured that trainer's cranium. Police questioned Arcel, and he maintained that he had no enemies and his beating was a random act of violence. Saturday night fights went off the air and Arcel paid $13,000 for advertising in the IBC's magazine. Charles played ball with the IBC for another crack at the heavyweight crown, but like the vast majority of former heavyweight champions, has never made it to the top of that hill again. He fought Jersey Joe for a fourth time. He got another shot because the IBC respected him. The head Jim Norris appreciated that EZ fought often and never complained. But by their fourth match, Walcott had EZ's number and won a 15 round decision.

[William Dettloff]

Look as Charles rushes in. Walkett hoists him off his feet. A tip off to Joe has the advantage and weight. He's the bigger, tougher guy tonight. He lifted Charles with one arm.

[Ricky Mulvey]

The stadium cheered. Newspaper writers called it a gift decision. It didn't matter. EZ fought with his customary caution, leading at the beginning and coasting at the end. And as an ex champion, matchmakers tried to make EZ a gatekeeper fighter. Feed him to younger contenders. Knowing that a win would lead their prospect to a champion, EZ went to Ogden, Utah to face Rex Lane in an untelevised bout. When Ray Arcel arrived with his entourage, the hotel owner greeted him with a gun on his hip. He said he was not allowing blacks in his hotel in harsher language. So Arcel went to the hotel down the street and paid for the rooms in advance. He had to promise that his group, the former heavyweight champ, would eat meals in their room and not hang around during the day. Ray Arcel remembered the hardships that black fighters faced while traveling and and described an encounter with a hotel manager on the Dick Cavett Show.

[Ezzard Charles II]

So I said, look, I got a double room. He'll sleep in one bed, I'll sleep in the other. He says, when you order the food, put him in the bathroom. And I says, well, I can only order for one. He says, well, you can eat in a coffee shop.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Ezra Charles ii, the Minister Ezra Charles says that his father didn't really talk about the discrimination he faced when, when he was a fighter.

[Ezzard Charles II]

He didn't even say anything about that. He didn't say anything about that. He didn't even say because he. He didn't keep that kind of stuff in his mind. See, he didn't think about those things, negative things like that. And that's something I had to learn to do. Not let the negative thoughts. He would change his thoughts and the scripture says that. Think on these things, the good things.

[Ricky Mulvey]

The former heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey refereed the fight between Rex Lane and Ezzard. Dempsey ignored Rex Lane's blatant headbutts. EZ clearly out pointed the young contender. But Jack Dempsey was the star referee and the sole judge of the fight. He ended up giving two rounds to Lane Ezzard one round and called seven of them even. This gave Lane the win by decision. And the International Boxing Club stood by the verdict. I called it as I saw it. Jack Dempsey later said. Charles wasn't fighting like Lane was. It was a close fight. That's why I called seven of the rounds. Even this marked the beginning of EZ's pocked, marked career as a former heavyweight champion. He fought once a month, sometimes against top quality opponents. Sometimes against journeymen also looking for a paycheck. But he'd earn his last flash of greatness in a fight against Rocky Marciano. The undefeated heavyweight champion who had the full backing of the ibc. Marciano was the American dream. The first generation immigrant son of an Italian shoemaker from the province of Chiete. In the first fight, EZ gave the crowds what they finally wanted. Here's William Dettlaff, author of Ezzard A Boxing Life.

[Ray Arcel]

What everybody was freaked out about and happy about was Ezzard fought in a way that they all that they wanted him to fight all along. They wanted to see that Ezra all along the gutty, active, aggressive guy that he wasn't a lot of the time.

[William Dettloff]

Ezzard Charles, a dead game fighter, tonight weathered the storm.

[Ricky Mulvey]

By Marciano's own admission, EZ fought him harder than anyone else. And that was an Ezzard who'd boxed in nearly 100 professional fights. That says about as much as Ezzard is the quality of competition that Rocky primarily fought. Ezzard took risks. The Cobra battled inside and slugged with a fighter who knocked out the vast majority of his competition.

[William Dettloff]

Charles, in trouble from solid smashes to

[Ricky Mulvey]

the head since he'd already been KO'd by Walcott, walked through Joe Louis's jabs. EZ had little to lose and dominated the early rounds. He knew this may be his last crack at a title. The elder statesman opened a gash over Marciano's eye. A Crescent cut 2 inches wide and an inch deep.

[William Dettloff]

In these superb close ups, you can see the damage each has been handing out. Swollen faces, cut eyes.

[Ricky Mulvey]

The flowing blood blinded Marciano at times and forced him to back off. But Marciano turned the fight into a brawl. In round six, that's where Rocky was best. He tired EZ out and battered his face. In the eighth, Marciano hit EZ squarely in the Adams apple. And EZ couldn't swallow. He could hardly breathe. For two rounds.

[William Dettloff]

Charles, visibly tiring, leaning on his man,

[Ezzard Charles II]

hoping to chew up the clock.

[Ricky Mulvey]

But for as tired as Ezzard was, Rocky Marciano only put him on the ropes one time. And that was in the 15th round.

[William Dettloff]

Tension increases as Rocky steps up the attack, trying for a knockout.

[Ricky Mulvey]

He battled mightily, but he couldn't grab back the title from the younger, fresher champion. As lost the decision. But as started fighting in the way that the crowds finally wanted. He earned a highly publicized rematch. EZ completed a full fight camp. The writer Bud Schohlberg asked EZ what he was reading while he trained. EZ said, I've put books aside. They distract me from what I'm doing. A prizefighter has to be crude and tough. Crude and tough. He seemed to savor the sound of it. Then he showed his regular white as a toothpaste. Add teeth and a revealing grin. Schohlberg claims. EZ was finally embodying the type of fighter that the cross crowds wanted him to be. But this fight would prove to be a tipping point.

[Ray Arcel]

And then in their second fight, he just completely crumbled.

[Ricky Mulvey]

That's William Dettlaff, author of Ezzard A Boxing Life.

[Ray Arcel]

Marciano was off for a while before their first fight. And there's some. Some possibility that he was just rusty. So he was just better for their second fight. But Ezra wasn't even in the second fight to any appreciable degree.

[Ricky Mulvey]

The sharp punching Charles still connected hard shots and opened a cut on Marciano's nose.

[Ray Arcel]

The lore is that the referee came to Marciano and said, one more round and we're gonna stop in Ezra.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Charles II maintains that the sight of a bleeding Rocky Marciano made his father flashback to his bout against Sam Baroody. A fateful match in which Baroody died after the fight due to severe blows to the head.

[Ezzard Charles II]

And Burt Sugar said it. He said Ezra would have won that fight if it hadn't been for Baroody and killing Beruri because he split Rocky's nose and he couldn't hit him anymore.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Dettlaff doesn't believe that EZ was close to a KO though.

[Ray Arcel]

But even though Ezzard was close to winning that fight in those terms, he was getting his ass kicked almost from the opening bell. And the fight was never competitive.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Marciano later starred in a video looking back on that rematch with Ezzard Charles. And for some reason recounted the tale of the fight while sitting beside the singer Tony Bennett.

[William Dettloff]

Tony, being that you're a stand up singer, why don't we surmount?

[Ray Arcel]

Okay,

[Ezzard Charles II]

Tony, I gotta ask you one question. What is it?

[William Dettloff]

Your favorite number? Do you have one?

[Ricky Mulvey]

Well, yes, it's actually Rocky Marciano and Tony Bennett carry on like this for some time before the fight actually starts. But when it did, Marciano completely dominated and completely overpowered the ex heavyweight champion.

[William Dettloff]

I'm not Worried about my nose. I'm worried about losing the title. Come on, knock this guy dead with a shot. Forget the blood, let's get this guy.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Marciano knocked out EZ in the eighth round. And that would be the Cincinnati Cobra's last shot at the heavyweight title.

[William Dettloff]

Believe me, it took some doing. This guy came with a steel chin.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Fighters always have and always will have a tough time leaving the ring for good. The 41 year old former UFC heavyweight champion Daniel Cormier compared fighting to a drug. He said, quote, knowing when to walk away is a tough concept for those who scored knockouts against the greatest fighters of all time. You lose the grind, the tight schedule, the entourage, and the thrill of competing in front of thousands. According to William Dettlaff, EZ's wife Gladys encouraged him to stop.

[Ray Arcel]

But she recognized there was a point when Ezzard had to stop because he was just getting beat up and there was no good gun to come out of it.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Ezzard's career went out with a wisp instead of a bang. Ezzard started losing to the young contenders he was supposed to test, then to journeyman.

[Ray Arcel]

I can't imagine that maybe, I don't think it's ever happened where a fighter just retired because his wife made him. Because fighters can't do anything else, what else are they gonna do? If you spend your entire adult life and part of your childhood really, let's face it, learning a craft and then you're 30 or 32 or 35 and somebody just says you can't do it anymore. Well, you don't know anything else. That's all you've ever done.

[Ricky Mulvey]

EZ fought whoever he could. The now 84 year old George Logan is the only guy alive who faced Ezzard in the ring. Logan knocked Ezzard out when he was 22 years old in Boise, Idaho facing Ezra Charles.

[Ezzard Charles II]

Yes, I was rather kind of concerned because he was an ex champion at the time, but he was only, and that was coming up and he was kind of going down, that's about it. Anything particular about the fight? I don't remember.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Ezra descended from Yankee Stadium back to Cincinnati's music hall, finally to a high school basketball gym in Lincoln Heights. A few Cincinnatians watched their champ outbox a 250 pound police officer from a nearby suburb. He fell and Cincinnati left him on the bottom, so he had to leave.

[Ezzard Charles II]

And the people who he gave to would walk across the street when they saw him coming and not go out so they wouldn't see him.

[Ricky Mulvey]

That's Ezzard Charles ii. Ezzard was forced to give up all that he ever knew and start from scratch. The money was gone, and Gladys kept the family together.

[Ezzard Charles II]

We were in Cincinnati. My dad at 59, after he started boxing, he would be in Canada someplace trying to get some money. And we were there on our own. We were raking the leaves one fall, and we would set the leaves, you know, used to burn the leaves, right? And we were out there roasting hot dogs on the fire. And I was like 22 years old. I was sitting in my mom's, eating a bowl of cereal. Came by her house, you know, I was eating some cereal she had there. And I told her about that day when we were out there roasting hot dogs on the fire. She said, because the gas was off. See, I didn't even know that. This is the kind of mother I'm. She didn't. She didn't bring us that. That father, your damn father, you know, she. She wasn't like that. She was just peaceful and taking care of us. I thought we were having fun.

[Ricky Mulvey]

And the heavyweight champ took jobs wherever he could. His advantage as a former champ was being allowed to work at a Dodge dealership.

[Ezzard Charles II]

Then he struggled a little bit. He worked at Esterman and Dodge. He was one of the first African American Dodge salesmans that Dodge had in the Midwest. There were no African American seller. Dodge, he was one of the good boys they had on the tires.

[Ricky Mulvey]

The Dodge boy, the greatest light heavyweight of all time, Then worked at the dmv, as was a lenient judge of the driving test.

[Ezzard Charles II]

Then he went to the license plates, the DMV in Illinois, and he was helping people get their driver's license. He'd come home with $50 bills in his pocket. Those were guys giving him tips because he would help him pass the test.

[Ricky Mulvey]

He made good money as a fighter, but he shared it casually, made investments with his heart, paid high taxes, and lived in the moment. And while he was quiet, he was

[Ezzard Charles II]

never a pushover, because he came from Lawrenceville, Georgia, during the times of segregation. And I remember when I was a kid, I used to always get on the bus with him, and I would run to the back of the bus, and he would say, come on, sit up here. He wanted to sit up front because, see, he remembered a time when he wasn't allowed to sit on the front of a bus. So, you know, he knew those things, and he knew what Dr. King was trying to do to make it give equal rights to everybody.

[Ricky Mulvey]

And when the Charles family lived in Chicago, one of the most famous boxers to ever step foot in the ring. One of the most prominent critics of the Vietnam War going on at that time was a regular visitor at the apartment. I never knew that your father had a relationship with Muhammad Ali.

[Ezzard Charles II]

Oh, yeah, he was a neighbor of ours. He would come by all the time. It was a December day and it was real cold and I was like 15 and I was taking his coat to hang it up there in the front living room closet. He said. I said, yeah. He said, it's so cold. I saw Superman catching a. Know stuff like that. It was always great.

[Ricky Mulvey]

The most striking difference between Ali and Charles was their relationship with the US military as served in World War II.

[Ezzard Charles II]

He was drafted and he stood forward. He stood forward. He got. He was in the army until the duration because that's where it was during World War II. You were in for the duration. You didn't have 13 months in combat like with Vietnam. You were in for the duration. And he stepped forward because that's what people did in the country. You know what I'm saying? You have very few people who evaded the draft, especially during World War II after the sneak attack by the Japanese emperor, you know, on our troops at Pearl Harbor.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Ali later said about the Vietnam War, quote, my conscience won't let me shoot my brother or some darker people or some poor hungry people in the mud for the big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me the N word. They never lynched me. They never put no dogs on me. They didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father. Shoot them for what? How can I shoot them? Poor people just take me to jail. But Ali and Charles had immense respect for each other, despite their political differences. And when Ali met up with Charles, he was there to learn too.

[Ezzard Charles II]

He asked my father, this was in 64, if he would teach him the twister punch so he could bring cuts on a person quickly. You know, there's a twist to your jabs. It makes it. When you. When it hits a person's face, it makes skin cut and get the cut out quicker.

[Ricky Mulvey]

While Charles talks boxing with Muhammad Ali, he wasn't quick to relive the glory days or talk about past fights.

[Ezzard Charles II]

Yeah, he was talking about. He said, yeah, I fought him and he was a tough guy, but I got him. You know, he would talk like that, but he didn't. He didn't really. He didn't really get into all the people. He knocked out my dad. He didn't later on that stuff really didn't mean that much. It was me and my sisters and my mom that got to be more important to him.

[Ricky Mulvey]

He lived quietly with his family. He worked and maintained a middle class lifestyle. He didn't ask for anything. But Chicago's mayor, Richard Daley, let him take a test to become a social worker.

[Ezzard Charles II]

He got that job and he was so proud because he said they was down there taking a test with college guys when they hired him. And I know Merrick Daly didn't just put him on there. He passed that test. He was so proud of himself, you know, that he passed the test. We know college guys. He had a high school diploma, that's all.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Many pro boxers, especially from that era, end up with less dignified ends. Some former champs die broke making pennies on the glory of their past fame. Jack Johnson worked in a flea circus in New York's Times Square. Joe Louis worked as a greeter at Caesar's palace in Las Vegas. He relived the time he knocked out Max Schmeling over and over again to blackjack tables. The Brown Bomber assuaged high rollers who lost thousands to the house. Ezzard had a harder time getting around. His ALS became noticeable and Gladys jumped in to help him.

[Ezzard Charles II]

And they had no handicap stuff, nothing, standicap, ramp or anything. He wasn't even in a wheelchair. He was walking, but he had to hold on to her arm to walk. And she would hold him up.

[Ricky Mulvey]

And when EZ lost control of his motor functions, when he got real bad

[Ezzard Charles II]

where his ALS was really affecting him, she used to take him to the toilet. I would do it sometime, but my mom did more than anybody. Bathing, shaving, I mean, everything. She did everything.

[Ricky Mulvey]

While Ezra's body failed, he managed to stay happy by focusing on the positive things like his family. Ezra Charles ii, the minister. Ezra Charles also says that his father grew closer with his faith towards the

[Ezzard Charles II]

end because he could see what all that was about. There's nothing, you know, it's just like I know now this is temporary, you know what I mean? This is not going to be forever.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Ezra Charles inspired his son to carry himself with restraint, treat people with respect. And that may have saved his life. When Ezra Charles II worked as a church jail guard.

[Ezzard Charles II]

And I went to the Cook County Jail. I was a sheriff down there at the jail, deputy sheriff. So I mean, it's okay. I did it and you know, I didn't have no problem. I would see guys, we were at barbecue and I heard, hey, Officer Charles. I turned around. Some of those inmates they saw me before I saw them. You see what I'm saying? So had I been an ass, who knows what would have happened to me? These are gang bangers, you know what I'm saying? I treated guys, right? I gave them what they had coming. And I wasn't, you know, trying to abuse anybody. I went with Lieutenant MacDonald. I remember this, the west segregation at the prison. And this Spanish Latin king, he was in there throwing stuff. And, you know, he came in and sprayed him with the mace. And we came in, I restrained him. McDonald was hitting me over here with a flashlight, a plastic flashlight, you know, he was doing. And I came back the next day and one of the guys said, yeah, Charles, you was beating up my guy. And he said, charles wasn't beating on me. See, he knew who was doing that. It's a gang banger, right? And he's like, the guys I saw at the park, we were barbecuing. Officer Charles, I'm trying to say, hey, what's that? They saw me before I saw them. So had I been in the ass, who knows what would have happened to me, right? They might have shot me.

[Ricky Mulvey]

Today, Ezra Charles has a mural, a street named after him, and will soon have a statue in Laurel Park. To me, he's the enduring symbol of mental fortitude and is the paternal spirit of Cincinnati, Ohio. Total Fighter is written, produced, hosted by me. My name is Ricky Mulvey. A big thank you to everyone who lent me their time, who allowed me to interview them, in particular Ezzard Charles II for this episode. I don't believe he's done a podcast besides this one. Also, a big thank you to William Dettloft. If you're interested in learning more about Ezzard Charles, I highly recommend his book, Ezzard Charles A Boxing Life. Also thank you to Hamad Youssef, Buddy LaRosa, Daryl Peman Jones, Bud Buzowski and Kevin Grace. Thank you Carolyn Ayre, for always being the same second set of ears on this series. And if you're interested in helping the statue of Ezra Charles get made in Laurel park, you can go to ezzardcharles.org you can find the fundraising campaign there. Season two will be out in a couple of months. I am looking for ideas on people who would be a good representation of the Total Fighter. They could be a boxer, they could be someone else. Leave a five star review, give your thoughts in the comments. I will certainly look at them. And I know you hear this in every podcast you listen to, but please rate this show if you're listening on Apple Podcasts. It helps other people find the show. And as I'm doing this show by myself, it helps me tremendously and I I really appreciate it. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you in Season two.

[Ezzard Charles II]

By. Sa.