Ada Calhoun, CRUSH: A Novel

Summary

Totally Booked with Zibby: Episode Featuring Ada Calhoun on CRUSH: A Novel

Introduction

In this engaging episode of Totally Booked with Zibby, host Zibby Owens sits down with acclaimed author Ada Calhoun to delve into her debut novel, CRUSH. The conversation explores the intricacies of love, relationships, and personal growth, offering listeners a deep dive into the themes that resonate with Generation X women and beyond.

Guest Introduction

Ada Calhoun, the author of CRUSH: A Novel, joins Zibby Owens to discuss her latest work. Ada is renowned for her insightful non-fiction, including Why We Can’t Sleep, which explores the lives of Generation X women. Her novel, CRUSH, marks her foray into fiction, showcasing her versatility as a writer.

Overview of CRUSH: A Novel

Ada begins by outlining the premise of CRUSH:

"It's about a woman who's happily married and then she meets this other man, and they develop this super strong connection, and she tries to figure out a way, mostly through reading a lot of books, to keep both men amazing." [03:53]

The novel intricately weaves themes of love, devotion, and the complexities of maintaining multiple relationships, all while navigating personal desires and societal norms.

Exploring Themes of Love and Loss

Ada shares a poignant passage from her novel, illustrating the emotional turmoil of her protagonist:

"They say crying clears out the residue of what was there before. When you're disoriented, crying is a proper response. But what about when you can't stop?... I kept switching roles the way I had at times in a moment of orgasm, sexual situations flashing through my brain. Only this version was depressing." [04:09]

Zibby praises Ada's fresh take on a timeless subject:

"People have been writing about love forever. You think like, how can people write about love in a new way? And yet you can't and you did." [05:10]

The Unpredictability of Love

Ada reflects on the universal yet unpredictable nature of love:

"Everybody has been trying to figure this out for a very long time. And it is so unruly and it is so surprising to every one of us individually and to every culture." [05:14]

She emphasizes that despite widespread experiences, love remains intensely personal and often defies logical understanding.

Open Marriage and Relationship Dynamics

The conversation shifts to the concept of open marriages, a central theme in CRUSH. Ada explains:

"The boundaries are very hard. It’s very difficult because love is so unruly. And in her case, it just runs roughshod over every attempt that she makes to keep it under control." [08:18]

Ada clarifies that the novel neither champions nor condemns polyamory but instead portrays one woman's quest to balance her desires with her existing commitments.

Passion in Midlife

Ada discusses the portrayal of midlife passion in her novel:

"Women in midlife often are working a lot more than 9 to 5 and also might have little kids or no families or just any kind of permutation of a very full and complicated life. So finding passion can be maybe more jarring in that state where suddenly you have these feelings or cravings that can be confusing." [09:28]

She highlights the evolving roles and challenges faced by women in midlife, making the pursuit of passion both a personal and societal exploration.

Literary Influences and Writing Process

Ada shares her journey as a writer, revealing her initial struggles and eventual transition to fiction:

"When I tried to do a memoir about the last few years of my life and it just was not working. And so this was this way to actually talk about these ideas I had and not have to stick to the fact." [07:36]

She contrasts the constraints of memoir writing with the creative freedom of fiction, finding solace and expression in crafting her own narratives.

Balancing Fiction and Nonfiction

Discussing her diverse body of work, Ada touches upon her previous projects and future aspirations:

"They’ve all been different. And so I'm always working on at least one or two things. And I think the next one might be a novel, but I'm still trying to figure it out." [21:17]

Her ability to navigate between genres underscores her versatility and commitment to exploring various facets of human experience.

Advice for Aspiring Authors

Ada offers valuable advice for writers striving to find their voice and community:

"Finding a community like that for whatever kind of writing you're doing... It makes such a difference just to be around other people who know what you're doing or trying to do." [24:58]

She advocates for creating supportive networks, emphasizing the importance of collaboration and mutual encouragement in the writing journey.

Closing Remarks

As the conversation wraps up, Ada expresses her gratitude and excitement for her ongoing projects and upcoming events:

"There’s a couple in New York and then I'm going all over. I’m going to like books and books in Miami... It'll be really fun." [18:06]

Zibby thanks Ada for her insightful contributions and encourages listeners to explore CRUSH and Ada’s other works to gain a deeper understanding of the nuanced themes she presents.

Final Thoughts

This episode of Totally Booked with Zibby offers a captivating exploration of Ada Calhoun’s CRUSH, delving into themes of love, personal growth, and the challenges of modern relationships. Ada's candid discussions provide listeners with a profound understanding of her creative process and the compelling narratives she crafts, making it a must-listen for book enthusiasts and aspiring writers alike.

Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• Ada Calhoun on Love and Writing:

  "Everybody has been trying to figure this out for a very long time. And it is so unruly and it is so surprising to every one of us individually and to every culture." [05:14]

• Ada Calhoun on Open Marriages:

  "The boundaries are very hard. It’s very difficult because love is so unruly." [08:18]

• Ada Calhoun’s Writing Process:

  "Doing fiction, you can just make everybody do what you want. It's just magical." [18:58]

• Advice for Writers:

  "Finding a community... It makes such a difference just to be around other people who know what you're doing or trying to do." [24:58]

Conclusion

Zibby Owens' conversation with Ada Calhoun provides a rich and engaging exploration of CRUSH, offering listeners profound insights into the complexities of love and personal fulfillment. Through thoughtful discussion and meaningful quotes, the episode encapsulates the essence of Ada's work and her contributions to contemporary literature.

Transcript

[Zibby Owens]

Hi listeners. Just a quick note. I'm super excited because today I found out that On Being Jewish now hit the USA Today bestseller list for the 13th week. Thank you to everyone who supported the book that I edited and came out to events last week and in other weeks to support the book. We have two giant events coming up on Being Jewish now live in New York and LA on March 23 and April 5. We have discounted tickets for $25 for those who need them and would love to see there. You can find them on Eventbrite and also if you go to my Instagram at Zibby Owens, I put the link in bio and they're on zibi media.com so anyway, please come and in the meantime enjoy the podcast. Sorry for the interruption. I was just so excited I had to share. And if you haven't left a review or a rating or anything of this podcast and you love it, would you please do that? That would really help with discovery and everything else. Thanks so much everybody.

[Unknown]

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[Zibby Owens]

Hi, this is Zibby Owens.

[Unknown]

And you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbemedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibeowens.

[Ada Calhoun]

Ada Calhoun is the author of Crush, a novel. She is also the author of Also a Poet, named one of the best books of 2022 by the New York Times, NPR, and the Washington Post. Long listed for the Andrew Carnegie Medal for Excellence in Nonfiction and featured on the Today show and PBS NewsHour. Her other books include St. Mark's is Dead and the New York Times bestseller.

[Zibby Owens]

Why We Can't Sleep.

[Ada Calhoun]

Welcome Ada. Thank you so much for coming on to talk about Crush, a novel debut novel. Very exciting.

[Unknown]

Thank you. So it's great to be here.

[Ada Calhoun]

Can you tell listeners what your book is about, please?

[Unknown]

Sure. It's about a woman who's happily marri and then she meets this other man and they develop this super strong connection and she tries to figure out a way, mostly through reading a lot of books, to keep both men amazing.

[Ada Calhoun]

Can I start by reading this passage about devastation and love and loss and all of that? Okay. They say crying clears out the residue of what was there before. When you're disoriented, crying is a proper response. But what about when you can't stop? What about when you dissolve into a puddle that needs to be mopped up by cheerful stalkers in Hawaiian shirts? I felt dead, only I felt like a graveside mourner, too. I kept switching roles the way I had at times in a moment of orgasm, sexual situations flashing through my brain. Only this version was depressing. Now I was the corpse and the doctor and the widow, the candy striper who asks the grieving family if she can get them anything, and the we're losing her doctor nurse, the medical examiner leaning against the morgue bay after a long day of autopsies. Love killed her, he says, snapping off his gloves. Oh, so good. The way you always write about. I mean, people have been writing about love forever. You think like, how can people write about love in a new way? And yet you can't and you did?

[Unknown]

Well, yeah. I mean, I. When I was trying to work on the book, I tried to read everything I could going way back and trying to find historical books and things from different cultures, talking about love. And it is kind of amazing to me how everybody has been trying to figure this out for a very long time. And it is so unruly and it is so surprising to every one of us individually and to every culture.

[Ada Calhoun]

Well, anything. Just because it happens to everybody doesn't mean that it makes it easier for it to happen to you.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Ada Calhoun]

Like, you can learn and you can digest. I mean, we were just talking about, like, you can. You can know that it's happening to so many people, and yet when it happens to you, it all feels personal. Because how else can you interpret anything like love and relationships? It's you, right?

[Unknown]

And I think it's also true that we all keep thinking we. We have figured it out. We. We will solve it by rules, by marriage, by. By all these different stories, strategies and boundaries. And it's just, it's. It's infinitely surprising to me how there really is no fix, right? There is no one way to make sure that it never. It never gets us and never turns our life upside down. Yes.

[Ada Calhoun]

Although you do suggest, in part, some coping strategies. At one point you said, I'd always liked books by drunk, older male writers. And I finally realized why. By 8:30 in the morning, I'd fed my child and gotten him off to school, listened to the news, done a load of laundry, answered a dozen emails, edited a stack of pages, and by 2pm A Harry Crews character had drunk two beers and checked on his captured bird of prey. Who needed fantasy novels when there existed such exotic tales of dissipation?

[Unknown]

Well, it's funny. I wrote this book about Generation X women a few years ago called why We Can't Sleep. And I interviewed about 200 of. Of them of us. And there was this consistency of. Of effort, right? Of like. Of working super hard, of trying to be this good girl and all things to. And pushing down desire and pushing down one's own needs in favor of other people's. And so what I tried to do in the novel was to make the narrator, who is like me in many ways but not me, be an embodiment of that woman who suddenly thinks, wait a minute. What if I do what I want for the first time?

[Ada Calhoun]

So how is the narrator like and unlike you?

[Unknown]

Well, I mean, as somebody who's done fiction and nonfiction, I'm sure you know, it's there's something kind of magical about being able to make things up whenever you want to. So I think the voice is a lot like. A lot like my voice. And then some of the things that happened are also similar to things that have happened to me. But, you know, like when I tried to do a memoir about the last few years of my life and it just was not working. And so this was this way to actually talk about these ideas I had and not have to stick to the fact.

[Ada Calhoun]

So one of the topics, of course, of the book is open marriage. Does it work? Does it work for every party involved? What do we think about it? Talk a little bit about that. Yeah.

[Unknown]

So I think that in trying to figure out how to have all the things that she wants, the narrator thinks like, okay, maybe this will work, right? There is some way to. There is. Okay, there's a framework and you have your spouse and then you also are allowed to have this other person. France. France does it. Right. Like there's this and there are. Maybe there's models. And what I think she finds is that the. The boundaries are very hard. Hard for her to maintain the rules. It's just, it. It's very difficult because love is so. It's just so unruly. And in her case, it just runs roughshod over every attempt that she makes to keep it under control. Yeah, it's definitely not like a. A pro or anti polyamory book. I think there are. There are a lot of both of those out there right now, which is. Which is great for people who are exploring different ways to think about relationships. But yeah, this is really just one. One woman's quest to have all the things she wants.

[Ada Calhoun]

And what about passion sort of in midlife? I know that's a broad question, but where does that fit in? Does it fit in? What do we think about how people talk about it in general versus reality?

[Unknown]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think things have changed quite a bit. Right. I think. And that was one thing. When I was doing that, the book about Gen X was our mothers and grandmothers would hit midlife and they were probably empty nesters. And if they worked, it was like a 9 to 5 job and the phone hung on the wall. And there were all of these different things that made their lives not necessarily easier or better or worse or harder, but just different.

[Ada Calhoun]

Right.

[Unknown]

And I think that right now, women in midlife often are working a lot more than 9 to 5 and also might have little kids or no families or just any kind of permutation of A very full and complicated life. So I think finding. Finding passion can be maybe more jarring in that state where suddenly you have. On top of everything else, you have these feelings or cravings that can be confusing.

[Ada Calhoun]

True. In the beginning of the book, you talk about literary birding when you see books by friends out in the wild. And I love that expression. I love applying that birding. I just thought that was hilarious because I'm always, like, walking to bookstores and being like, oh, hi, yes, look. Look who's here. I'm in a new place. But now I don't feel like I'm in a new place because I have my friends here.

[Unknown]

It's so fun, right?

And it's like.

And I think, I don't know about your friends, but when I send my friends, like, their books, it's like, it's always joyful, right? It's always, oh, my God, like, here you are in the Dallas airport. Of course, you get to check in with your friends that way. And it's just. It's. It's a real. It's a real plus of being an author and having friends who are authors.

[Ada Calhoun]

It's amazing. So start at the beginning a little bit about how you became a writer and how we got to these books that you've written lately.

[Unknown]

Oh, sure. So I grew up in the East Village in Manhattan, and I started working. I was like, 13. I worked at the farmer's market, and I mostly babysat. So I babysat for all these people in the neighborhood, and some of them were editors. There was one who's an editor at Spin magazine and one who was an editor, Esquire magazine. And they would say, okay, when you're done with the children, go into my office and transcribe this thing for me or do this research. And so I started working when I was 16 at magazines and then kind of parlayed them into jobs in some. In some ways. So I was working at Spin in the early 90s of the music editor's assistant. And then I was like, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to work in magazines. And I went to college and tried to become a Sanskrit translator. I did five years of Sanskrit, but then, you know, I couldn't find a job job that was Sanskrit. So I wound up working at the local paper, the Austin Chronicle, when I was in. At school at UT Austin. And that was so fun, right? Like, every day was different being a reporter, and I just thought that was so great. And then I came back over to Vogue I wrote to New York magazine, and then eventually I was able to go freelance.

[Ada Calhoun]

Wow. And talk about why you started. Why we sleep.

[Unknown]

Yes. So I had a very bad summer, like, terrible summer. I was super broke. I had this credit card debt. I was fighting with my husband. I was just, like, miserable at all these jobs that had fallen through, and it was just. It was so rough. And that was the exact moment when this [e-mail] called me and said, would you be willing to do a story about how Generation X women are sad? And I thought, yes, indeed. I would love to do that right now. Your timing could not be better. And so what I did was I looked at all the things that were different for our generation and the ways in which we had kind of come of age in a time that was uniquely unlucky for various reasons, and especially for women. And we were getting this message, you can be anything. You can do it all, and aren't you lucky? And it really meant we're able to do everything for everybody and become exhausted and with very little help. So that became an article. I think it was 8,000 words or something, and it was. Went super viral. And then it led to this book where I expanded it, and that came out in 2020, in January.

[Ada Calhoun]

Great timing.

[Unknown]

Well, I was on book tour, and. And it was this amazing tour, right, where, like, I'm in these rooms with all these women who are close to my age, and so many of them were basically standing up and giving testimonials about their experience and how they connected with the book and what it meant to them. And just this sense of, wait a minute, we're not. We're not crazy. There's something going on. There's some. There are some factors beyond our control that relate to how we're feeling or where we are in life that we didn't think we would be. And it was just this magical experience, this tour. And I was on it for a few weeks, and then it shut down, obviously, for Covid, and a lot of it went online. And then my. Every night, I was, like, looking at these screens of like. Like, hundreds of squares of crying women, like, became this incredibly sad, mournful kind of experience. So I'm hoping. I'm hoping this tour can be more. The More the first one, less the second one.

[Ada Calhoun]

Yes. And what are. What are your plans for the. For the tour and everything coming forward? Coming ahead.

[Zibby Owens]

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[Unknown]

Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails.

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

Over.

Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?

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So I think it's like 15 events or so. There's a couple in New York and then I'm going all over. I'm going to like books and books in Miami, which I love so much. They're. Those guys are so great. And print up in Maine and Left bank on St. Louis. Just like a lot of my favorite indie bookstores invited me. And so I'm going to do some, some road tripping. I'll have some friends come with me. It'll be really fun.

[Ada Calhoun]

Amazing. Oh, my gosh. Well, the book is so great the way you just write about everything from the everyday things to deep thoughts about love. And it's just great. It's like you can't put it down. It's really, I love the way you write.

[Unknown]

Oh, I'm so glad. Well, thank you. Thank you so much.

[Ada Calhoun]

Was it harder to write fiction? I know you said the memoir wasn't really working, but when you went to write this as a novel, did you start from scratch? Like, what was, what was the whole thing like?

[Unknown]

It's, I mean, I feel like I'm like, so late. I'm so late to the party, right? I'm just like, you guys, you can just make stuff up. It's wild because it's for so long and you have to work so hard, right, to do the interviews and do the research. And then with fiction, you can just do whatever you want. It's kind of incredible. So, no, it was just, it was just pleasurable. It was just a joy. And I feel really lucky because also, like, when I was doing the last book was a memoir called Also a Poet. And it's about my father and the poet Frank O'Hara. And I was writing it while I was living it, and I kept trying to make everyone do things that would be good for the book, right? I'd be like, okay, now you're really nice to me. And then I have a happy scene to end the book with where you just say lovely things and then it's Over. And nobody would do it, right? Like, nobody would act how I wanted them to act. And then doing fiction, right, you can just. You can make everybody do what you want. It's just. It's just magical.

[Ada Calhoun]

Yeah. And we talk more about that book as well.

[Unknown]

Oh, sure. So that book, which came out in 2022, it basically what happened was I found all these cassette tapes that my father had made. There were interviews with the poet Frank O'Hara's friends. He. So he died in 1966. Frank O'Hara. And then in 1976, when I was a baby, my father was supposed to be the biographer. And so we'd made all these tapes of these interviews. And then he hadn't finished the book. And I couldn't believe it. I mean, he had like 40 hours of material. And so my day job is I ghostwrite. And a lot of times you get like a dozen hours maybe, right. And sometimes a lot less to write a whole book. And I was like, how did you not finish this? It's crazy. And then I was like, I will finish it for you. I will magnanimously show up with all my skills and I will do this for you. And he was like, okay, whatever. And I thought I was going to knock it out. And it would be such a great relationship builder for us because we'd always had a sort of strained relationship and it would be so good. And then it wound up being really, really hard on all kind of levels. And then it became like a memoir about my dad and me.

[Ada Calhoun]

I have to go back and read that. I have not read that one, but add it to cart. So that's a lot. I mean, you've been nonstop writing to get three books out so fast. That's a lot. And do you have more coming up? Like, have you already written another one?

[Unknown]

I have a draft of another one. And so nothing has been very strategic. And everything has been in a different part of the bookstore. Right. So like, you know, memoir and essays and then like women's studies. And my first book was called St. Mark's Dead the Many Lives of America's HIPAA street, which is like a 400 year history of the street I grew up on in the East Village. And so, yeah, they've all been different. And so I'm always working on at least one or two things. And I think the next one might be a novel, but I'm. I don't know, I'm trying to. Still trying to figure it out.

[Ada Calhoun]

That's exciting. And where do you like to write so this is.

[Unknown]

I'm in my office right now. So I'm here maybe half the time, and then half the time at the New York Public Library, which has been so good to me. I love librarians and libraries so much and eternally in their debt.

[Ada Calhoun]

I love that. That's amazing. Are there any genres you particularly like to read? I know you write all kinds, but do you love. Are there any authors you're obsessed with or just books that, I don't know, have meant a lot to you?

[Unknown]

So Sigurd Nunez. I just. I think she's brilliant. And Emmanuel carrer. I'm reading B13 now. Have you done this one?

[Ada Calhoun]

I haven't, no.

[Unknown]

I just think he's a genius. I've been reading Annie Baker plays. Do you know her? I'm sort of like. I used to be a theater listings editor at New York Magazine, and one of my good friends is a Times arts writer, and so we go see a lot of plays, and he's taken me. Every time there's an Annie Baker play, he has to take me. So, yeah, I don't know. I blurb a lot. So I have a lot of, like, books coming out. There's this memoir, Destroy this House, I really enjoy. Middle Spoon is a Viking book. Anyway, I just. Yeah, I. Piles of everything. I like philosophy and religion and fiction and memoir and. Yeah.

[Ada Calhoun]

History and. How did you get drawn to Sanskrit?

[Unknown]

I traveled alone when I was 18 for, like, three months through India and. And it was kind of random. I just. I got this sort of volunteer program thing in Bangladesh, and then I was like, well, I'm already over here. I might as well travel for a while. And I went up working at Mother Teresa's mission in Calcutta. And then I just was, like. Went on the road and took trains and ran around. And while I was there, I was, like, reading the Upanishads, and I was like, this is the best book that's ever been written in the history of the world. I was like, wouldn't it be incredible to read it in the original? And then when I went to college, I first went to McGill at Montreal, and they had this incredible Sanskrit program. And so I just took it and I. It's. It was such a revelation. I'd done a lot of languages before, but it has more grammar than any other language. It's. And it's so sophisticated, the way the grammar works and all the things you can do with that language that you can't do in other languages. So I. You know, I just. And I just did it for five years. I loved it so much, and I've taken it, like, again, I've tried to, like, refresh where I went to the Indian consulate for a while and took classes there, but it's really hard if you're not doing it all the time to. To keep it up, unfortunately.

[Ada Calhoun]

I mean, I would imagine Sanskrit is hard even if you're keeping it. I mean, even if you're keeping it up. But.

[Unknown]

But it's really pleasurable. And during the pandemic, one of my. One of my friends who's a Stan, who's this. I have a few Sanskritis friends still. And one of them, she and I did. We took the hymn and from the Betas and we did like a line every week. Like, it would take us a whole week to do, like, a line and talk through it. It was a really fun, fun way to pass the time.

[Ada Calhoun]

Oh, I love that. Wow. I mean, here's to creative interests, right? It's amazing. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?

[Unknown]

Yeah, I mean, I. The way I was having so many breakfasts with young writers because I'm always happy that people want to. Want to write, and I. And I love hearing what they want to do and trying to think of ways to make it better. And so I wound up starting this, like, women. Women's journalist Night journalist women. Anyway, we started this. This thing called sobs. There's a couple friends of mine and I where we have, like, you know, women who are starting out as writers and then some who've, like, won a bunch of Pulitzers. And we all get together in a room and just support each other and help each other and talk through. Talk through issues, talk through things we're excited about. And it's so, I think, like, finding a community like that for whatever kind of writing you're doing, whether it's fiction or poetry or history, and just getting people in an actual room together. It makes such a difference just to be around other people who know what you're doing or trying to do. Because it's hard, right? It's hard to do these things. And so it's good to be reminded that other people are trying to do it, too.

[Ada Calhoun]

Amazing. Ada, thank you so much. Thank you for this fabulous book Crush and all your other work, of course, and for uplifting Gen X women my age.

[Unknown]

Exactly.

[Ada Calhoun]

Thank you for all of it. I appreciate it.

[Unknown]

Well, thank you so much for having me on and reading the book and also for everything you're doing for writers and for books in the world.

[Ada Calhoun]

Yeah, my pleasure. All Right. Thank you.

[Unknown]

See you soon.

[Ada Calhoun]

Thank you.

[Unknown]

Cute coffee in the background too.

[Ada Calhoun]

Thank you. Okay, bye.

[Unknown]

Bye. Thanks again.

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, Follow me on Instagram, Instagram, ibyoens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

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