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- [00:00]
A
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Term supply see capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC
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B
a better help ad hold on one second. I just need to. What if you had a room where no one interrupts? No notifications, no expectations, just space to talk with BetterHelp Therapy happens in a space that's yours. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy. Today's episode is sponsored by Nutrafol. Do you ever worry about your hair? I was convinced that my hair had gotten a little bit thinner once I reached a certain age, which had me in a complete panic. So I started taking Neutrafol and it helped. Neutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement and the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. Nutrafol offers multiple formulas for men and women tailored to different life stages like postpartum or menopause, and lifestyle factors. For all of you who abide by a plant based diet, I do not. Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. You just order online, no prescription needed. You get automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. Plus, with a Nutrafol subscription, you can save 20% and get added perks to support your hair health journey. You just take four supplements a day and you'll be on your way. Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster Growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol. And for a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrafol.com and enter promo code ZIBBY. That's nutrafol.com spelled N u T R a F o L dot com promo code ZIBBY. Go do it. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time as a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster. I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibbeowens Anna Quindlen is back on the podcast, talking about More Than Enough, a novel. I did two live events with her recently, both at the Stryker center and at Totally Book Live. She has been my book club pig. She has been someone I've idolized for many years and have become friendly with, which is such a joy. And now we get to talk about More Than Enough, which is absolutely lovely and touches on themes like love and loss, friendship, book clubs, and how to really appreciate the people in our lives while they're still here. If you don't know about Anna Quindlen, which you must, she's a novelist and journalist whose work has appeared on fiction, nonfiction and self help bestseller lists. Some of her books include Object Lessons, One True Thing, Black and Blue Blessings, Rise and Shine, Every Last One, Still Life with Breadcrumbs and Miller's Valley. Her memoir, Lots of Candles, Plenty of Cake was a number one New York Times bestseller and her book, A Short Guide to a Happy Life has sold more than a million copies. Her book After Annie was my book club pick while she was a journalist at the New York Times. She won the Pulitzer Prize and published two collections of essays which I loved called Living Out Loud and Thinking Out Loud. Her Newsweek columns were collected in Loud and Clear. And Anna, thank you for coming on the show again, for doing the live events with me, and for being such an ally in a crazy world. Welcome to Totally Booked Live at the Whitby. I'm so excited to be here with Anna Quindlen, who's here to talk about More Than Enough. Welcome. I actually just interviewed Anna about this book for the Temple Emanuel Stryker center earlier this week. So we're going to have a brand new conversation about it. Right? We're going to just.
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C
We were supposed to do it in person but the snow intervened so we had a great time with about 1800 people online.
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B
Yeah. So this is like nothing.
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C
No, but these are real folks. That's fantastic.
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B
Okay Anna, tell us about this book, More Than Enough.
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C
Well, it's the story of Polly Goodman, who is in her early 40s and is an English teacher at a girls school in New York City. And she tells the story. It's A first person novel and her three closest friends who are the members of her book club. I should pause here to mention the specifics of the book club. They pick the book, they buy the book, but they are not allowed to read the book. That's the deal with this book club, because early on one of their members said, I'm never reading the book. And also many book clubs on tour have said to me, well, one member has taken me aside and said of one of her friends, she never really reads the book. So that's where I got the idea for her book.
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B
Wait, how many people here are in a book club?
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C
How many people here are not in a book club?
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B
Well, you are.
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C
Now,
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B
do you read the book? Yes. Do you read the book? Okay, they read the books. Well, now for the people who aren't in a book club, you can now just start buying the books.
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C
Anyhow, her three closest friends from the book club buy her one of those DNA kits. As they say, it's a goofy. But Polly actually takes it and discovers that there are things in her family that she didn't know about. And that sort of was the initial impulse of the book. And then it sort of turned into something else, something that I write about all the time. It turned into a novel about family and the complications of family and about female friendship and how the bedrock of so many of our lives are our female friends.
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B
See how this is expertly linked to the ones from this morning? We got the teaching, we got the friendship. I didn't do that on purpose. I wish I did. Okay, let's start with the friendship of the women in this book club and how they lift each other up. How did you figure out who these characters were? All the different things that happen within the group, the illness? How did you figure all that out? Or did it just happen as you started?
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C
Oh, I have such a problem with this question because I don't ever want to make what I do seem easy or natural, because it's never easy and it doesn't feel at all natural. But at some level, it just kind of happens. I mean, I always start thinking about the protagonist, so I start fleshing her out in my mind. And the more I know about her, the more I know about the kind of people who'll be her friends and the kind of family she'll have and the birth order that she has and the profession that she has. You know, sometimes people say to me, her name's Polly Goodman. Did I choose that because she's the daughter of Jack Goodman who is in Fact, a good man. The answer is my characters come with their names. From the moment I started thinking about her, I knew her name was Polly Goodman and I have no idea why. And I know again, this makes it either seem easy or crazy. And the easy part is not true. Who knows about the crazy part? So it's a weird, subconscious process writing fiction because I'm not a particularly plot driven writer. And in terms of style that's been baked in for so many years that I scarcely think about it. I'm completely character driven and the characters sort of come to me over time.
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B
I love how in this one there is more of a highlight on the adult sibling relationship, particularly between Polly and her brother. I have a brother and so I just was seeing shades of that. Talk a little bit about that and having Polly as daughter, sister, mother, the whole shebang.
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C
Well, it's so interesting that you mentioned that.
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B
Not mother, but you know.
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C
So as you know, there's a fairly long Runway between having a finished manuscript of a book and having an actual book. It's usually between 12 and 18 months most of the time. So this book has been locked and loaded for a while and I started another one. Now, this makes me sound like I'm driven. I'm the least driven person you'll ever meet. But what happened was this was all locked and loaded and I said to myself, I'm going to take the summer off. It was the best feeling. I'm going to take the summer off. I'm just going to read stuff and walk around the pond and hang out with the Labrador and make meals when the kids come. And then about two weeks in, like, these people started to appear in my mind. And I literally thought to myself, stay there until October. I'm taking this summer off. And about two weeks later I started writing again. And it's three adult siblings, two brothers and a sister who are planning their mother's 80th birthday party as a surprise. And it really goes into the sibling relationship and also that pinball ping, ping of each sibling against the mother and the father and then how that makes the other siblings feel, you know, that kind of thing. And maybe it was inspired by the fact that Polly and Garrison have such a great relationship in this book and one of the reasons they have such a great relationship is because she takes his counsel seriously. So when the DNA thing looks like it's going to turn into something, he's the first person that she goes to and he tells her that this is nonsense and that there's obviously been a mistake. And over the year of the book, he becomes more and more concerned that somehow this has become important to her because he's not as important to her as he'd like to be. And that's where the title comes from. Near the end of the book, he's concerned about that. And she says, oh, Gary, you're so much more than enough. And I think that that's true of the siblings who really help and support us and who sometimes drive us crazy and who sometimes we want to ignore, but who have been with us from the very beginning. I mean, except for our parents, they're the only people who have. And there's a power to that relationship that's so important I should know this.
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B
But tell us about your siblings.
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C
I'm the oldest of five. If you look up oldest child in the dictionary, my picture is right there. That's the kind of person I.
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B
But you said you weren't driven, so I don't know.
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C
I'm an eldest daughter, too. I'm the oldest of five. I have three brothers, and then the youngest is my sister, who is 10 years younger than I am. And I have kind of a peculiar kind of sibling relationship because I was kind of an alternate parent to my siblings from my teen years on. But again, my brother Bob, who is so wonderful and is less than a year younger than I am, at one point said to me, anna, we're grownups now. You don't have to do that anymore. And, you know, that's the kind of guy Garrison is to Polly, too. He will always have her back.
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B
I mean, it's like parenting. You're not supposed to stop just because everybody gets older.
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C
Yeah, but when you're parenting, you need to change when everybody gets older and maybe back off a little bit when everybody gets older.
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B
I mean, I'm not planning on backing off.
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C
Well, believe me, when you have a 42, a 40 and a 37 year old, your plans will not be as important as theirs.
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B
Is anyone else in your family and the siblings a writer?
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C
No, but I am from a very large Irish Catholic family that told stories all the time. And one of the things that was so noticeable was that the stories got better and better and different and more richly ornamented. And it sort of made me think, well, yeah, there are facts, and then there are facts with ruffles. I mean. And so I really feel like growing up, there weren't writers, but there were storytellers, and the writers were all on the shelves. I mean, I started reading when I was really little, and I sort of felt like it was a time and a place where there really was no room for a person like me. I mean, my career choices were either mom or none, and I didn't think either of those would suit my skill set. And so what I found in books was kind of my real ancestral home. I always felt that way.
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B
Amazing. Today's episode has been sponsored by Wayfair. Refresh your space and make your home better for you with Wayfair. From furniture and decor to organization solutions and outdoor essentials, Wayfair makes it easy to find exactly what fits your style and needs. I recently upgraded a space of my own by helping my mother redo her guest room after my kids wanted a little bit of a refresh from sort of a more outdated oh gosh, she's going to hear this room into something a little more modern. So we went on Wayfair. We got new beds, side tables, carpet, lamps, the whole room and it looks absolutely amazing. It all arrived within a week and we are obsessed with any unique style that you have. Wayfair can help you bring your vision to life. It is so easy to use. The search and reviews and filters and visual tools all made it so easy for my mom and me to agree on what we should buy and it all came so fast and in such great condition and we are absolutely thrilled. So so you will be able to do the same from Wayfair and fit it into your home and lifestyle. Find furniture, decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home Today's episode has been sponsored by Quince. These days I am all about quality over quantity, especially in my closet. If it's not well made and versatile, I am just not wearing it and it's not worth it to me. That's why I love Quince. The fabrics feel elevated, the cuts are thoughtful and the pricing actually makes sense. Quince makes high quality wardrobe staples using premium fabrics like 100% European linen, 100% silk and organic cotton poplin. Lightweight cotton cashmere sweater is perfect for the changing seasons and can't miss seasonal colors and prints for spring or are amazing. They're versatile, well made pieces that make getting dressed simple. Quinn's clothing is consistently rated 4.5 to 5 stars by thousands of customers. I personally would rank them five stars. That's just me. Real people wearing these pieces every day are actually loving them and they work with safe ethical factories and cut out the middleman. So it's just quality clothing. As I have told you all and post on Instagram. My winter coat is Quince so I think about quince every single day. It is my go to and it's gotten me through this dreary, terrible winter that we've all had and that I can't wait to be over right now. Go to quince.com zibby for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q-U-I-N c-e.com zibby for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com zibby
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A
with no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank Capital One NA member, FDIC.
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B
And with your siblings, what was it like? I know we've spoken a little bit, but becoming a surrogate parent at such a young age yourself, how did that change things? What was that like in your family?
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C
Oh, it was horrible. I mean, you know, nobody should ever be placed in a position where they have to do it, even though a lot of women and girls are placed in the position where they have to do it. And it changes the relationship in that to some extent you have power that they don't have. But luckily it sort of smoothed itself out over the years. But I remember when my daughter was a toddler and my sister was coming around, my daughter was really bothered by her and I realized that it was because Maria couldn't figure out whether I was Theresa's sister or Teresa's mom. Which is what happens when, you know, you're 19 and your sister's eight and, you know, all hell breaks loose.
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B
My gosh. Well, you have more than enough material to mine for your work as well. Talk a little bit more about the DNA piece of the story. You found yourself fascinated. You didn't realize so many people had these surprises come up. It's now more and more frequent. It affects all the Relationships in the family, obviously, as one person tries to find out the hidden, you know, pull the hidden threats.
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C
I didn't expect to encounter it in real life. And I was doing a signing the other night and this woman came up and I signed for her and she went to turn away and she came, turned back to me and said, I have a pop up nephew. And I thought, I wish I had heard that term before I finished this book. A pop up nephew. But it goes to a deeper question, which is, what does DNA really mean? Is blood thicker than water? And part of the answer to that is embedded in her friendship with these three women who are her created family. I mean, she doesn't have any sisters, but she does. She has three sisters to whom she's very, very close. They just don't happen to be related by blood. And so I think the results of these tests and how people feel about them reveal the fact that sometimes it's relationships that make family and not DNA that makes family. And I think that's a thread throughout the book that the DNA test becomes very important to Polly in a variety of ways, in part because she has some thorny family relationships. But ultimately it's the family she's embraced and the family that she's built that really is the bedrock of her life.
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B
Yeah, talk a little bit about Polly's mom, because that's a complicated relationship.
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C
Yes, very complicated. And actually, I realized as I was working on the book, I tend to write novels in which the mother and daughter have a very positive, not necessarily uncomplicated, but warm relationship in After Annie, for example, or in Miller's Valley. And I realize that it isn't since One True Thing that I've written a novel in which the mother and daughter have kind of this kind of relationship. But the difference between when I was writing One True Thing, which is very much told from the point of view of Ellen golden, who's the daughter, observing her mother, Kate, who is dying of cancer. The difference is that I'm very sympathetic to Polly's mother, Mary Goodman, because she's very much of my generation. She's around my age, and she's done the thing that some women of my generation did, which is to go back to school, to get a terrific job as a lawyer, to eventually become a judge, a very esteemed judge. And Polly can't quite articulate the fact that that's one of the reasons why she resents her mother. They're very different people. And that's part of the push and pull, but part of it is because of that. And there's that moment when Polly is talking to her sister in law, Emily, who's a therapist and is really hilarious and is the one who sort of says the thing that most people won't say. Polly, for example, very much wants to have children, but hasn't so far been able to. Emily has three of them and she's watching them like raise hell on the beach and says to Polly, oh, it's so magical, isn't it magical about motherhood? But Polly says to her about her mother, I felt that maybe Garrison and I weren't enough for her. And Emily says, what if you weren't? You know? And it raises that question about how motherhood gets ahold of you in your life. You know, will it be the only thing? Will it be the biggest thing? Will it be among your things? There's all different kinds of ways to be a mother, to see yourself as a mother. And Polly hasn't had that experience yet. But at some level she feels like she wasn't enough for her own mother in a way that has really gotten under her skin.
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B
And what kind of mother do you feel like you have been?
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C
Oof. I gave it my best shot every day. But I do have to say, you know, you disappear into this world. If you don't, then the book's a failure because you're asking the reader to disappear into this world. And so sometimes when I was writing, I was pretty abstracted. You know, I once said in public while my kids were there that I knocked off writing every day when I was still doing a column at 2:30, so that by the time I got to school pickup at 3 o', clock, my mind had shifted completely from writer person to mother person. And as I said this, I looked at my three kids and. And they had such expressions of incredulity on their faces that I realized I had totally blown it on. So. But you know, the bottom line is I have these three people who are fantastic humans. And I think that's the best you can say to yourself. Three people that I would want to hang out with even if I wasn't related to them.
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B
Oh, that's so nice. I love that. Yeah, let's give that applaud the three humans. I am always struck by how funny you are about writing and how you always make it sound.
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C
You mean about how much I hate it?
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B
Yes, yes. You can't possibly hate it as much as you say because you keep doing it.
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C
I have one skill set. I have bills to pay. No, no, look, I Don't mean to denigrate what I do that way, except that people talk all the time about inspiration and passion and so on and so forth. And all of those things are true. But for all of us at a certain level, this is how we make a living. And it's really important not to lose sight of that. Because I think there are some times when you don't feel like pushing the rock uphill, when you just think, I have a family, I have these homes. I have this Labrador who wants to eat twice a day. Actually, she wants to eat all the time, but twice a day is how much I feed her. So that there's this weird balance in what I do and what you do between, I suppose, kind of an art, a craft and a job that you sort of have to balance all the time. And the reason that I say I hate writing and I and every day I would prefer not to trudge to that table with that laptop is because, as I say to students all the time, and this is so important, talking to kids who are doubting themselves all the time. Writing is not an exercise in putting words together. Writing is an exercise in confidence. So that every time you're putting the words together, you have to look at them and say, this is good. I have something to say. People should pay attention to it. That's a huge leap to make constantly. I emphasize that to kids because it makes clear what I'm asking of them. The other thing that I do with kids that's so important is I now have a new editor for the first time in my professional life, which is a little challenging for me, but I think it's gonna be great. But my old editor used to edit on paper. So I have paper manuscripts and I always try to take one to a high school or college because there is stuff written all over them. And I want students to understand that if they get back a paper that has writing all over it, it doesn't mean they can't write. Cause I get back one every time. It means they can write better. And that's so important to communicate to them because I think most of them look at red marks on the page and think, I'm not good at this. And I want them to know that someone who is considered good at this gets all the red marks on the page.
- [28:18]
B
Amazing. When you think about your career. I know you said something last time you were here a couple years ago about the manuscripts you leave in your kids closets and the legacy of that. Can you just say that again? Because it made me cry.
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C
Well, there was that time I pulled together first editions of all of the books and put a tote bag in each of their closets with first editions of all of the books. And Christopher, who's my most puckish child, my second child, who's a young adult novelist, he's the one who used to call a Short Guide to a Happy Life a short guide to a big tuition check, came to me and said, what's the deal with the books? And I said, well, I just really felt like, you know, you all. And he sort of looked at me skeptically. And then I realized, you know, Martin Amos once said to Salman Rushdie, allegedly, what you want is to look at a shelf, and from here to here, it's you. Okay, if I look at a shelf now, from here to here, it's me. But more important, from here to here, when I'm gone, if my children want to access me, they would all argue that there is an omnipresent voice in their heads which will not shut up even after death. But they can also pull any of those books out and over and over again, they can be told who I was and. And what I really cared about. And that's important to me.
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B
I love that. Anna, congratulations on More than enough. Thank you so much for being here today.
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C
And Siby, thank you first of all for how supportive you've been of my work, but also what a gift you've been to readers in terms of producing books, producing bookstores, producing podcasts. You just really, you've been such a friend at such an enormous level to readers. Thank you.
- [30:23]
B
Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibyowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
- [30:45]
A
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member, FDIC.
- [31:15]
B
Lunch was great, but this traffic is awful. Um, can we stop at a bathroom? Are you alright? And keep having stomach issues after eating, like diarrhea, gas and bloating abdominal pain and sometimes oily stools.
- [31:27]
C
Sound familiar?
- [31:28]
B
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- [31:39]
C
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- [31:41]
B
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- [31:44]
A
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- [32:10]
B
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C
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