Anne Berest (3:55)

It was perfect.

Zibby Owens (3:58)

So Anne and I are together here today in person, which is so wonderful.

Anne Berest (4:02)

No, it's a great honor for me being here.

Zibby Owens (4:05)

Oh, my gosh.

Anne Berest (4:06)

Thank you.

Zibby Owens (4:07)

Runner up of Dayton Literary Peace Prize. Unbelievable. So exciting. Obviously, many people know you for the postcard, and I cannot explain how many people talk about the postcard all the time. Have you read? Have you read? Have you? Book clubs everywhere. It's amazing. You're amazing. Your story is amazing. Why don't we start with you explaining that book to people who don't know it, and then we're going to talk all about this book.

Anne Berest (4:35)

Okay?

Zibby Owens (4:35)

If that's okay.

Anne Berest (4:36)

But first of all, what I want to say is that can you imagine what does it mean for a French writer, first to be translated in English and then to have all these readers here in America? You cannot imagine how it's so strong and emotional for me, it's like a dream. And so I really want to say thank you to all the book clubs, all the people here, the booksellers who supported my book, they say, you're welcome.

Zibby Owens (5:15)

It is amazing. Did you ever expect when you wrote any of this? What did you hope for?

Anne Berest (5:20)

I remember. I remember when I was in the plane from Paris to New York and I had this thought. I thought someone. Someone bought a ticket for me to come and it's already huge. I already thanks for that. I already thank for that. I'm already grateful for that. But I couldn't expect what will arrive.

Zibby Owens (5:53)

Unbelievable. So tell the short version of your family story and the postcard.

Anne Berest (6:01)

Yes. So the postcard tells the story of this postcard, the true story of this postcard. My mother received in 2003, an anonymous postcard with only four first names written on it. Nothing else, no signature, only four first names. Her first names of her grandparents, uncle and aunt, who were killed during the Second World War because they were Jews. And so my book is my investigation to find who was this anonymous sender. The investigation to find who were these people of my family because I didn't know nothing about them. An investigation also. And also a quest like a quisp of identity, because I grew up in a totally secular family. And a quest for identity to discover what does it mean to be Jewish now, today, for me.

Zibby Owens (7:15)

And what does it mean for you to be Jewish today?

Anne Berest (7:19)

I wrote several pages in the book to explain. Exactly. But if I. If I sum up.

Zibby Owens (7:27)

Yes, sum up.

Anne Berest (7:28)

I would say that maybe for me, being Jewish, it means maybe spending my whole life asking to myself, what does that mean to be Jewish? Yes.

Zibby Owens (7:44)

I understand. It's a deep investigation.

Anne Berest (7:48)

Yes.

Zibby Owens (7:49)

And we are always tested.

Anne Berest (7:50)

Exactly. And always asking.

Zibby Owens (7:53)

Yes. How can we do it? Better, Better person, better Jewish person. How can we help? Give back. Well, you give back. With your storytelling and with the postcard, we learned all about one part of your family. And now with Gabrielle, we are learning about the other, another part of your family, which I found really interesting. When you write in the book that your mother did not necessarily want you to do this.

Anne Berest (8:23)

No.

Zibby Owens (8:24)

Tell me about that.

Anne Berest (8:24)

She was furious.

Zibby Owens (8:25)

Yeah. She was not happy.

Anne Berest (8:27)

I have to explain that I wrote this book first with my sister, and it's very important for me to explain that she's a writer, a French writer, an amazing writer, and we wrote it together. And I wrote it before the postcards.

Zibby Owens (8:44)

Oh, interesting.

Anne Berest (8:45)

Yes. Here. Here in the usa, it comes out after, but in France, it was before it was a previous book. And for me, it was a little bit like the trigger to understand that I loved writing on my family. And this book was like opening a door on my writer process. And so the story of. Yes, my mother. Yes, she was furious because she didn't want us to write a book about her grandmother.

Zibby Owens (9:29)

And I'm not so sure how happy Gabrielle would be either.

Anne Berest (9:34)

That's a good reflection because you write.

Zibby Owens (9:38)

About her relationship to her kids and her identity as a mother. And it's not like she was so into that to begin with. Right. I mean, as you mentioned, the book, the kids are like ghosts. They're not in the story all that much.

Anne Berest (9:55)

Yes. For her and for her husband, the interesting kids were the paintings.

Zibby Owens (10:02)

Yes. And this mad, obsessive, dysfunctional relationship that she found herself in at a young age. And despite all the infidelity and the opium addiction and the madness and all of it that she could not extract herself from and didn't want to.

Anne Berest (10:26)

No. Often it said that they were geniuses.

Zibby Owens (10:41)

And it's also said that you can't be a genius and a good parent. You can't be a genius and a good parent. Well, now a lot of parents are thinking, well, great, now I'm not a genius.

Anne Berest (10:51)

So they were genius. And they had no time for kids. So it's a good news for art history.

Zibby Owens (11:01)

Yes.

Anne Berest (11:01)

It was not a good news for my grandfather and my mother. And if you read the postcard, you know how my grandfather committed suicide.

Zibby Owens (11:13)

And usually that's young to age 27.

Anne Berest (11:17)

Yes, exactly. Usually that's parents who. Who tells the story of the family to the children. But in our case with my sister, we wrote the story that our mother didn't know. And so when we finished the book, we said to her, now that's the story of your grandmother. She knew nothing about her. So it's like.

Zibby Owens (11:49)

There'S an inversion.

Anne Berest (11:50)

An inversion about the way to how you tell the story in a family.

Zibby Owens (11:54)

Yes. Wow. And actually, what you did in terms of the structure of the book was so interesting because you end it with the birth of your grandfather.

Anne Berest (12:05)

Yes.

Zibby Owens (12:06)

Before. And you fast forward and tell us what happens later and go back and forth in time, but essentially it's all the back story. And then we stop there. And then you just have like a little bit about some of the other great stuff or crazy stuff in the family, but it's also about what does it mean to be the descendant of one person in the family line who was born with so much darkness? And you have all these references to the light and the weight of the light versus the dark, which I found fascinating.

Anne Berest (12:38)

You know, it makes me think that when I was 25, something like that, I was going through a depression and I went to meet a therapist, and this therapist was an expert on family tree therapy.

Zibby Owens (13:01)

Family tree therapy. Interesting.

Anne Berest (13:03)

And it really changed my life. And this person explained to me that if you cure your family tree for your dense, you also cure it for your ancestors.

Zibby Owens (13:24)

Oh, love that.

Anne Berest (13:27)

So that's why it's really important to try to understand what happened before you, because you move everything. And for example, this therapist, she explained me all the repetition cycles and crazy things. Like, for example, my grandfather, who was born at the end of the book, he has the exact same birth date as me. And if you work on your family tree, you will find a lot, a lot, a lot of coincidences who are maybe not coincidences, but how, for example, how we are given the first names in your family, what does that mean? If you bear the first name of your grandmother, of your great grandfather, it means that you come on earth with something like a backpack.

Zibby Owens (14:40)

Yeah. Baggage. Baggage, yes.

Anne Berest (14:42)

And it's really interesting to know that you have it, because you can feel something heavy on your shoulder and you don't know what is it. But if you work on your family tree, you can discover that maybe that's my grandfather, maybe that's my grandaunt. And in my books, Gabrielle, and also the postcard, that's this work. I try to understand, not only for me, but for everybody, how you are influenced by things that happen before you. And that even with the cells, memory, the memory you have in your cells, memory of emotions, of traumas, that's all that aquarium that I try to discover with these books.

Zibby Owens (15:45)

Yes. This notion of inherited trauma.

Anne Berest (15:47)

Yes.

Zibby Owens (15:48)

Which I'm so glad is rising to attention and getting validation, because we know this, Right. But now, as we know science, but now as it becomes more scientific and accepted, it's like, good, that's what we thought. It's hard to escape our past. Of course, there is a lot about the art world and all sorts of characters, how they intersect, Marcel Duchamp and Picasso and like all these people throughout, which, as someone who loves art was. It was very exciting to see. But despite all of that, I feel like the most interesting parts is the relationship between Gabrielle and her artist. What is his name again? Oh my God, your grandfather.

Anne Berest (16:34)

Blah, blah, Picabia.

Zibby Owens (16:35)

Picabia, yeah. I only read it like a thousand times. Yes. The relationship between her and Picabia was so passionate, but without the physical passion, so intellectually charged, this meeting of the minds. And you have a funny scene towards the beginning where they first physically get together and they're both like, really disappointed with that, which I'm like, how did she find that out? Like a diary or something. I'm like, this is going deep here. And then, you know, because of Picabia's dalliances and his affairs with other women throughout their relationship, towards the end, where he inscribes to my friend, to mes amis, and she is just a friend, it shows, like, the trajectory of what happens when two people sort of link in life for better, for worse, for real. Tell me like what do you do with a, with a relationship like that? And then what does it do to like you and your relationships? Today's episode has been sponsored by Quince. It is spring and I have so many travel plans, from book touring to travel with my kids to everything else. So this year I am treating myself to the luxe upgrades I deserve. Quince's high quality travel essentials at fair prices. And seriously, these prices are amazing. Whether you get this beautiful cashmere blue throw which I got because you know, how nice is it to wrap yourself in a cozy blanket because airplanes don't give you blankets anymore and a navy blue suitcase. They have this fabulous hard shell carry on suitcase that I am just so excited to use. The best part about Quint, all items are 50 to 80, 80% less than similar brands. By partnering with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes, which I just love. So for your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quint. Go to quint.com zibby for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U I N C E.com Zivi to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinns.com Zivi today's episode has been sponsored by Fast Growing Trees. Did you know Fast Growing Trees is the biggest online nursery in the US with thousands of different plants and over 2 million happy customers. They have all the plants your yard or house needs like fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs and so much more. Whatever plants you're interested in, Fast Growing Trees has you covered. Find the perfect fit for your climate and space. Fast Growing Trees makes it easy to get your dream yard order online and get your plants delivered directly to your door in just a few days without ever leaving home. Their alive and thrive guarantee ensures your plants arrive happy and healthy. Plus get support from trained plant experts on call to help you plan your landscape, choose the right plants and learn how to care for them. I am obsessed with the fiddle leaf fig tree, an indoor plant that I got from Fast Growing Trees. It is so beautiful and it just came right to my door. No annoying trip to a nursery or I once had to go in Midtown in New York City, not even Midtown. All the way to the flower district to find a tree and put it in the car. And that was such a pain. Anyway, now these came right. Everything comes right to my door. And it's amazing. This spring they have the best deals for your yard. Up to half off on select plants and other deals. And listeners to our show get 15% off their first purchase when using the code Readbooks at checkout. That's an additional 15% off at fast growingtrees.com using the code readbooks at checkout fastgrowingtrees.com code readbooks now's the perfect time to plant indoors or out. Use readbooks to save today. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply.

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Zibby Owens (21:48)

He found letters in the archives at almost the end of his life. Yes.

Anne Berest (21:52)

Yes.

Zibby Owens (21:52)

We found the archives of the letters.

Anne Berest (21:55)

That he had sent to Gabriel.

Zibby Owens (21:56)

All through until the end of his life. All through until the end of his life.

Anne Berest (21:59)

That's amazing. Divorced for years and years and he is still writing to her. Gabrielle, what do you think of that? I need your help of that. And you know what? In these letters, they never, never speak about their children. Never.

Zibby Owens (22:20)

They would not make it today. No helicopter parenting and no thanks.

Anne Berest (22:26)

They are only speaking about paintings. That's fascinating. And sometimes he writes poems for other women and he sends it to Gabrielle to know what she thinks they were. Yes. Lincoln linked forever in something that is bigger than ego. And that's fascinating and also encouraging.

Zibby Owens (22:54)

Courageous.

Anne Berest (22:55)

No, Discouraging.

Zibby Owens (22:58)

Oh, discouraging, yes.

Anne Berest (23:00)

In regard of your own life. And you say, okay, yeah, they found them each other. And what's interesting is that when she was young, as a young adult, she was a. She wanted to be a composer.

Zibby Owens (23:19)

A composer? Yes. She was clearly talented. She had all this early success.

Anne Berest (23:24)

She was very good, very talented. But what's interesting is that she knew that she would be a good composer and well known. But when she met Picabia, she knew that together it will be a revolution. So she accepted to quit her ego as a composer to become a crew, a couple, a partner which will go through centuries. You have to be very smart to understand that being two is better at being alone.

Zibby Owens (24:03)

Yeah, you mentioned that. At first it seems sort of anti Feminist, right, that she gave everything up. But then you point out, no, no, no, this is her choice. She made this choice.

Anne Berest (24:14)

Yes. And a lot of women at that time were under masculine power. She's not representative at all of this period. Her freedom, the way she could travel, her relationship with her husband, the freedoms they had. They had a love triangle with Marcel Duchamp. It's not representative. And maybe you can find that it could have been that it was a.

Zibby Owens (24:57)

Shame that she gave up everything.

Anne Berest (24:59)

But in this case, as you were.

Zibby Owens (25:00)

Saying, it was her choice.

Anne Berest (25:03)

It's a period in art history, and that's what fascinating us, where artists were a crew. They wanted to live together, to create together, to travel together. It's not like today, or every artist is alone thinking of the art market. And no, no, no, it was not about money, a movement. It was a movement. It was about love and it was about feeling alive. And the other thing very important that she discovered that she had a skill, she was gifted of something that has no name, no word to say that is that she could see inside an artist, how to help him to give the best part of himself. That's a skill.

Zibby Owens (26:06)

Yes.

Anne Berest (26:07)

And all artists know that some people has this skill and that need them. That's why all artists needed her. Picabia, Marcel Duchamp, Apollinaire, Schiaparelli, Varese. The night she spent with Varese helping him to compose his music. And what's interesting is that all the artists know that, that some people have that inside them. And they were all very grateful to Gabriel. When you read the letters, the books, they always says how important she is. But what's interesting is that when this story was written by art historians, they forget to write that. First because she was a woman, and then because that kind of job of talent was like, not interesting to the storytelling. And you have to imagine an artist like God, alone, making masterpieces with nobody to help him. But that's not the truth. Writers know that, painters know that, musicians know that you need one, two persons around you.

Zibby Owens (27:49)

So tell me who you're. Who do you surround yourself with when you make your.

Anne Berest (27:54)

A lot of. I need. I have around me some readers. I know that each book I had to ask them, they will help me. Of course, my editor, she has this skill. But I think that you can't create alone. You need the other. And that's beautiful to say that you need the others. And that's what you see in this book. They are always chatting together, always. What do you think? What are you come with Me, we can exchange or paintings. You will paint on my painter and I will paint on yours. And I think that maybe the good moment now to remember that these guys, these women that revolutionized art, they did it as a crew, as a generation.

Zibby Owens (28:59)

Yes, it's amazing. So how did learning all of this about both sides of your family and all of this background and the family tree therapy and all of it, how do you live your life differently if you do or like, how has it impacted your relationships? Like, what do you do with all this?

Anne Berest (29:21)

Me, I am kind of irrational person. So I really think that they are on my shoulders. I really think that they are talking to me. And I will give you an example. In the book, Francis and Gabrielle, they went to New York for the Amory show. And what happened that Gabrielle, she was the only one to speak in English. They were the only French to come. And because she was the only one to speak in English, she could say whatever she wanted. And she said, the most important painter in France is Marcel Duchamp. It was totally false. Totally. Marcel Duchamp. He was little brother's brother of two brothers. The two brothers, elder brothers, were the known guy the stars in Paris, but not Marcel at all. But because she was the only to be able to speak, she could explain that he was a star and people starting here in the USA to have interest on Marcel. And of course, because he was a very smart guy and a great artist, he became so well known in the usa. But that's funny to know how did he start? And because of that, when I knew that my book will be translated in the USA in English for the postcard, I had in my head, like a voice who tell me, now you have to learn how to speak English because you go to the usa. And so my great granddaughter, like, you know, like your grandmother, who give you advices, I heard her telling me, now you work and you learn how to speak English. Now every day you learn.

Zibby Owens (31:46)

You just learned how to speak English?

Anne Berest (31:47)

Yes, but because I knew that for them it was something so important.

Zibby Owens (31:56)

Wow, that's very impressive.

Anne Berest (32:00)

But I heard this voice inside me.

Zibby Owens (32:02)

No, I understand. It's still just like. That's awesome. That's really great. I feel like I can't learn too many new things at my age anywhere. I can learn everything about books and history, but I don't know languages. I don't know. So hard, so hard, so hard.

Anne Berest (32:20)

And my. My big problem with English is the pronunciation.

Zibby Owens (32:25)

But it sounds so good when you speak English.

Anne Berest (32:27)

It's so pronunciation.

Zibby Owens (32:29)

No, it's amazing.

Anne Berest (32:30)

So difficult.

Zibby Owens (32:33)

It sounds great. You're doing great. No, it's, it's. You make it sound so. So much prettier than it is. So.

Anne Berest (32:40)

Thank you. Because me, I feel as. As if I were a 10 year old child.

Zibby Owens (32:46)

No, no, no. This is so impressive. And also, you know, we know how you write. Like you and your sister written this amazing masterpiece of so much information that you turn into this beautiful story. I mean the amount of trips these people took. Like, and now they're in Switzerland and now they've gone to Buenos Aires and now you're going to New York. And now they've crazy. I'm like, what are these? They never sat still. That's crazy, right? Like, I feel like as fast as the ideas were flying, they were moving. And I felt like at that time there wasn't quite as much non stop moving the way we do. But these like everybody was all over the place.

Anne Berest (33:23)

I was also fascinated by that, how often they move. But we made three years of researches because we knew nothing. We are not art historians. So we had everything to discover. And after three years of researching, like as if we were writing, I don't know, like essay or we started to write. And we are not historians, we are novelists, we have writers. So we wanted to write it as an extraordinary novel. But everything is true. And in the French version you have all the knots in the footnotes. Footnotes. Because we wanted to show to people that it's true. It's true. And after. So we started to write. And because my sister is also a writer, she's very famous in France as a writer, we started to write a chapter. I wrote a chapter, she wrote a chapter and then we exchanged and I rewrote what she had written and she rewrote what I have written. And so it was amazing to see how the other cat change a world. It was a unique experience.

Zibby Owens (35:12)

And do you feel like it brought you closer together?

Anne Berest (35:16)

We were very close and we had also a lot of arguing. It was so funny. But it was like the same experience, the same thing as playing together when we were child writing together and playing together was the same thing. And so it was so emotional to refound this feeling you had when you are playing as a child with your sister and. Yes, and now we want to do it again.

Zibby Owens (35:58)

Oh, good.

Anne Berest (35:58)

Yes.

Zibby Owens (35:59)

What are you going to write about next?

Anne Berest (36:01)

We want to write about. I don't know if you remember in the postcard, Gabrielle, because that's the young Gabrielle. Gabrielle. But in the postcard she's old and with her daughter. They are in this resistance network. Yes, in the postcard. This resistance network takes three chapters. But we discovered that we can write a novel just about the network. So we want to do that only on this period of the war.

Zibby Owens (36:40)

I can't wait to read that. That will be wonderful. So after all of this, do you have advice for people taking on big historical, deep dive family projects?

Anne Berest (36:53)

Okay, first advice. If you search, you will find. Because what is amazing is that all people, all they give them.

Zibby Owens (37:10)

Everybody leaves a trace.

Anne Berest (37:12)

Everybody leaves a trace. Even you think it's impossible. I will find nothing. No, no, no. Because it can be irrational too. But I'm sure that when you start to work on your ancestors, they are so happy that they start to give you signs, they start to move. And if you really are concentrate and if you follow your instinct, you don't know why you feel that you have to read this book. You don't know why. Something through you to see a museum on a subject. You don't know why. But that's the signs of your ancestors, really. And it can take 10 years, 15 years. It's a long travel. But I don't know one person who told me I don't have found something. No, no, because the dead people, they are so grateful to you that they help you. Really?

Zibby Owens (38:36)

Wow. Now I feel bad I haven't been helping my ancestors enough. I have to get to work, make them happy. Yes, yes, yes. Who knows what we'll find.

Anne Berest (38:49)

You will find. And you have now with Internet, for example, for the Jews you have in Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, you have all the files to find the names. You have now with Internet, it's easier to find clues and yes, a trice.

Zibby Owens (39:16)

Amazing. Well, congratulations. This was amazing. Your story is amazing. Both sides. I learned so much. I feel like I had this whole education, particularly in this time of intense creativity, that I didn't feel like I knew enough about that now I was just like living with all these important people.

Anne Berest (39:38)

I'm so happy you say that.

Zibby Owens (39:40)

So thank you. It was really, really amazing. And of course the postcard. Oh my gosh. So congratulations. Thank you, thank you, thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the book foreign.

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