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- [00:01]
Zibby Owens
Hey everyone, it's Zivi. I am so excited to tell you about something I've created just for you, the Zip Membership Program. ZIP stands for Zivi's Important People. It's for anyone who loves books, stories and wants a little peek behind the scenes at what I'm up to and what's on my mind as a Zip member. You'll get exclusive essays, a new podcast called Zivvy's Voice Notes. No interviews, just usually discounts at Zibby's Bookshop, a free ebook, and more perks. I wanted to create a space to connect authentically and deeply, and I'd love for you to be part of it. If that sounds like your kind of thing, become a Zip today. You're already important to me. Now let's make it official. Go to zibioens.com and click subscribe. And if you already subscribe, you can upgrade to the membership program. And now onto today's episode of Totally Booked with Zibby. Thanks for listening.
- [00:56]
Equip Health Sponsor
We live in a culture obsessed with dieting, weight loss and exercise, and that can make eating disorder behaviors easy to miss. But the reality is eating disorders are serious mental illnesses that take a major toll on your health and your life. But recovery is possible. Eating disorders are more common than you might think. Chances are you know someone who is struggling with one, or maybe you're struggling yourself. If you're concerned about an eating disorder in yourself or a loved one, I want to introduce you to Equip. Equip is a fully virtual evidence based eating disorder treatment program that helps patients achieve lasting recovery at home. Every EQIP patient is matched with a multidisciplinary care team that includes a therapist, dietitian, medical provider and mentors. And you get a personalized treatment plan that's tailored to your unique goals and challenges. Equip treats patients of all ages and all eating disorder diagnoses. It's covered by insurance and there's no wait list. If you think that you or a loved one could be struggling with an eating disorder, don't wait to get help. Visit Equip Health to learn more. That's Equip Health.
- [02:01]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
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- [02:57]
Lowe's Sponsor
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- [03:29]
Zibby Owens
Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbemedia.com and follow me on Instagram. Ibeowens Belle Burden is the author of A Memoir of Marriage. This is my Zivvies Book Club pick, by the way, and I am obsessed with this book.
- [04:21]
Interviewer
You have to read it.
- [04:23]
Zibby Owens
Belle Burdon holds a BA from Harvard College and a law degree from the.
- [04:26]
Interviewer
New York University School of Law.
- [04:28]
Zibby Owens
Her writing has appeared in the New York Times.
- [04:30]
Interviewer
She lives with her children in New York City. This is her first book.
- [04:34]
Zibby Owens
Welcome Belle.
- [04:34]
Interviewer
Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about A Memoir of Marriage, which, as you know, I am completely obsessed with in every way.
- [04:44]
Belle Burden
Thank you so much for having me Zibby. I'm really thrilled to be here. It's my first one, so I'm glad.
- [04:50]
Interviewer
It'S you I feel like publicist put me first because I'm just like, so excited and happy and like, and kind. There are no trick questions.
- [04:59]
Sponsor Voice
I just like, like to boost.
- [05:01]
Interviewer
So anyway.
- [05:02]
Zibby Owens
Okay.
- [05:03]
Interviewer
Tell listeners a little bit about your book.
- [05:06]
Belle Burden
My book, A Memoir of Marriage, is about the sudden end of my marriage in 2020. I believed I was very happily married. I was very much in love with my husband. We had a very stable and calm life together. During the second week of COVID lockdown, we had moved to Martha's Vineyard where we have a house. And I got a phone call from a man while I was mopping the floor saying that his wife was having an affair with my husband. I was completely shocked that night. I believed that we would get through it somehow. I didn't know how, but that we would get through it. But by the next morning, he had packed a bag and said he wanted a divorce, got in his jeep and left the island, and then really became someone I did not recognize at all and gave me no information about why he was leaving, what he was unhappy about. And I had to really try and figure it out on my own or figure out how to move forward without information. And the book is about that aftermath and how I put my life back together. It's also about our love story, really, about how we met and fell in love and the many years we had as a family that were very happy. And also exploring my own family legacy that ties in because there's a history of infidelity in my family, which I thought I was avoiding, but seemed to have replicated. So it's about, oh, my gosh, why.
- [06:35]
Interviewer
Put this painful, personal story out there?
- [06:37]
Belle Burden
Well, it's actually really contrary to my personality to put this out there. I'm actually very shy and very private. And my family generally does not talk about personal matters publicly. But this started when I wrote a Modern Love piece. And I wrote it not thinking it would get published. I just have always loved the column and I felt this need to record on paper what had happened because in the absence of information from my ex husband, and when this happens, there are often other narratives floating around. And so I just really wanted to write it. And I used the Modern Love word count and format and then I submitted it, not thinking it would ever get published. And then another piece of that is that I have always loved since I was a teenager, the art of writing and putting words together and creating something. So I was doing all of those things and I felt like, yes, it's very embarrassing, actually, and humiliating to put this out into the world that my husband left me and rejected me. But I have always felt like there was a greater purpose to it and that maybe it would help people for me to speak out about it.
- [07:52]
Interviewer
It doesn't read as embarrassing or humiliating at all. I mean, if anything, and you really show us this sort of break that your husband seemed to have with what was your reality? Like, this cognitive, I don't know, distortions. There's some sort of mental something going on, not diagnosable. Just, like, you take us through that in a way that's like, how can this man have done this? Like, how did this line in the sand just get drawn like that? And, you know, how does somebody you feel like you know so well become someone you suddenly don't? And I feel like that is something that so many people wrestle with in one way or another, with one person in their lives or another. And it's empowering to hear your side of it because it's not that you did anything wrong. Right. Anyway, how do you process all of that?
- [08:48]
Belle Burden
Well, I think the one piece of information he did give me was that he felt like a switch went off for him, and that had happened at other points in his life. And that's really what it felt like. It felt like something changed in his constitution, in his brain and his being, that made him decide that this part of his life was over. And in deciding that, it just was a complete shedding, which is, you know, I think he's built differently than I am. I could not have that kind of switch, I don't think. But that's really where I land. It's just something really changed for him. And in the book, I explore what he may have found lacking in me and other reasons that he may have decided to leave. But that's what it feels like. It really feels like a switch went off and there was no going back.
- [09:45]
Interviewer
But isn't that just terrifying to think that anyone you love and trust could one day flip a switch and just abandon everything? Like. Like, how do we go through life if we don't without holding on to some sense of continuity and consistency and stability and knowing that this could happen to James, it could happen to anyone. Like, how. How do we then just, like, you know, make a cup of coffee and go on with the day?
- [10:12]
Belle Burden
It really is frightening. It really is scary. And I think. I think my experience is unusual. I don't think, you know, other married people have to really worry about this. I think it's a very unusual experience. But it can happen. And you and in different ways, different crises, different things that can turn your life upside down overnight. And then it's really just a matter of how you go on from there. But it's still. It's still chilling to me because I trusted him so much and really believed in our connection, intimacy. And, you know, even the day before, he was bringing me a cocktail by the fire and making dinner, and it just went from very normal to very not normal.
- [10:57]
Interviewer
Well, I'm really sorry that this happened to you. I mean, seriously, this is so, as you said, unusual but unfortunate as well. Like, just that you had to go through it and you share in such detail, your brain sort of trying to wrestle with what happened and make sense of it all and parent. And parent and Covid. I mean, this is like the perfect storm of terrible times here. And you delicately and beautifully just like, take us through this, this time. Were you keeping. Were you writing your way through it at the time? Is this all in retrospect? Like, how did you tap into this and include so much sort of detail and. And all that?
- [11:40]
Belle Burden
First, I'll just say it was awful, but there are many worse things that people go through. So I do have that perspective. And I also believe I have a different life now. And I like my life now a lot. So I think new doors can open when other ones close. But I was not writing at the time. I was completely wrecked, unable to get out of bed, just really devastated. I did not start writing until 2030, gosh, 2022, when I wanted to put this story down on the page. And then I started writing about different things in my life. The death of my father, different things. So I had to go back and really reconstruct what had happened when I started writing the book and I looked at texts, I looked at, you know, photographs, and. But I could remember. I could recall those feelings. So it wasn't easy to write, but it was all in there.
- [12:43]
Interviewer
You have a scene, you know, towards the end. Can I. Do you mind if I read a passage or two? It's a scene later when you are trying to sort of process everything with James. And you said to him, you said, why are you doing this to me? He replied, I'm not doing anything to you. I said, you left us. You never told me why. His voice was calm, cold. I didn't leave you. I changed residences. I felt myself spin, losing control. You did leave. You told me you were leaving me. You told me you were continuing your affair. You left me alone to take care of the girls, to deal with COVID By myself. I sobbed through my words as I did when he first left. When I begged for some explanation, he said in a sing song voice, like a taunting child, boo hoo. Poor Belle, Always the victim. He had never spoken to me like this before. He had never mocked me then loud and pointed. You were in a nice house on Martha's Vineyard. You had everything you needed. I paid my share of the bills. What was so hard about that? He was right. I had everything I needed. I was more privileged than 99% of the world. The same set of facts had been recast in his hands, molded again into a different narrative. In his version, I was lucky. In his version, he hadn't done anything wrong. In his version, he had never left. Was he right? Had I made it all up? Had I spun his stuff that was false? That unfairly made me the victim and him the villain. Wow.
- [14:06]
Belle Burden
That happened. And it was astonishing to me that something that felt so clear to me about what had happened, he could rewrite it and view it entirely differently. And in that scene, you can feel how he had really changed as a person because he had never talked to me like that. He was a very kind and sweet. So it was like this different side of him had come out. And, you know, I did. In my narrative, I do become the victim. And it's hard. I was very conscious in writing the book to not really go even further into that place and try and be more factual about what happened.
- [14:52]
Interviewer
Wow. Well, you can just feel it and see it and we're just with you on the phone. I mean, it's. Anyway, thank you for showing us what happened so we could sort of be there with you. I mean, I feel like in reading this book, you feel like it happens to you. I mean, it's so vivid and immersive. You do talk about a big loss that James had with his. With Mark. Can you talk a little bit about that? And do you feel like linking past traumas explains anything? Is it. Talk a little bit about that and putting it in context.
- [15:26]
Belle Burden
Well, I think one thing that was helpful to me in processing all of this is to think of him as a complete person and to think about things that had happened to him in his childhood and as an adult. And a big one of those was losing his best friend suddenly and in a horrifying way to a drug overdose. Their friendship was very special, very intense. I loved Mark too, and I think Mark provided him a sense of adventure. And I think I say this pleasure in the unpredictable. And it was a devastating loss for him. I did not think it would kind of come back in this way, but I think it is a part of it in some way, because I think it may have made him feel his mortality more and that he wanted to have a different part of his life at this age.
- [16:20]
Interviewer
Wow. And you talk in the book also about your family history, which you alluded to earlier. And at one point you say, hold on. You say in the living room each night, as I worked on my puzzle with my grandmother's ghost sitting calmly beside me, I'd wonder, what is it about the women in my family that attracts this kind of betrayal? Will the same thing happen to my girls? Did James have his own legacy of men behaving badly, walking out without explanation, of women stoically enduring it? Did we both have another legacy of adults remaining silent, never explaining what had happened, pushing it underground into the subconscious lives of the next generations, creating a destiny where the bad thing could be and would be repeated? Tell me more about that.
- [17:05]
Belle Burden
I really did struggle with that during that time, and I thought a lot about it since then. My grandmother, their are stories that have attached to her about her husband, her second husband, being unfaithful. We don't have proof that that was true, but it's something that we've grown to accept. And we loved him very much. And then my mother also had a history of unfaithful men in her second marriage and in a long relationship she had during the last couple of decades. And my mother and my grandmother are fantastic women. They're very strong. They were very accomplished in different spheres, but they were attracted to and attracted by men who were superstars and big personalities, and they were, you know, there was infidelity. And why did that happen? Did they choose that? Did they tolerate it? And I really thought I was avoiding that. I really did not want that in my life. So I chose someone who I believe was very steady and consistent. He was a lawyer at the same law firm. He was very calm and mild mannered and polite. He never yelled. And I just did not think that would happen to me. And it happened to me in just this spectacular fashion where he, which was even worse than my mother and my grandmother because their partners did not leave, did not want to leave, wanted to keep the relationship going, begged for forgiveness, and mine did not. So I think there is something, especially when it's not talked about, that stays in families and often gets repeated. And I think that's part of why I wanted to write the book. I think in speaking it and writing it, maybe you can stop that legacy.
- [19:00]
Interviewer
Wow. Beautiful. This may feel more minor, but not really. One consequence of this betrayal in the time and place that it happened during COVID on Martha's Vineyard in this sort of rarefied small community is that you were also sort of outcast in a way from some of those circles as well. And being a single woman and access to clubs and all of that, which may feel minor but is actually huge because it's your support network and your life there and it is an effect of divorce that happens quite often. It's like you're not only losing your your primary relationship, but also your support network and all that. Talk a little bit about that.
- [19:45]
Sponsor Voice
Today's episode is sponsored by Wayfair. The new year is here. It's time to get back into an at home routine that you love and you can elevate your space with Wayfair. As you all probably know, Wayfair is like my favorite brand and I actually have a whole new storefront that I put together of all of my favorites which you can check out on my Instagra and then go to Wayfair.com to explore. From bedding and mattresses to storage solutions for every room in your house, Wayfair is your one stop shop. Refresh your living room with accent pillows, mirrors and even faux plants. For way less I've refreshed some of my kids rooms with carpets and mirrors and blankets and it's so easy and convenient. Everything that Wayfair has for your home is easy to find and there is a huge selection. Get organized, refreshed and back on track this new year. For Way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home and don't forget to check out my storefront. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Starting the year with a wardrobe refresh. Quince has you covered with luxe essentials that feel effortless and look polished. They're perfect for layering, mixing and building a wardrobe that lasts. Their versatile styles make it easy to reach for them day after day. Quince really has all the staples covered from soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the markup to 100% silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up to perfectly cut denim for everyday wear. Their wardrobe essentials are crafted to last season after season. Their Italian wool coats are real standouts. They're beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and built to carry you through years of wear. Not just one season. The quality shows in every detail. The stitching, the fit, the fabrics. Every piece is thoughtfully designed to be your new wardrobe essential. And like everything from Quint's, each piece is made from premium materials and and ethical trusted factories then priced far below what other luxury brands charge. You've heard me say this before because I'm obsessed with Quint, but I love my winter coat which I wear every day and I actually just got a blue cashmere sweater as a gift from Quint this holiday season and I am obsessed. Refresh your wardrobe with Quint. Don't wait. Go to quince.com zibby for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U I N C E.com zibby to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com zibby.
- [22:36]
Equip Health Sponsor
We live in a culture obsessed with dieting, weight loss and exercise and that can make eating disorder behaviors easy to miss. But the reality is eating disorders are serious mental illnesses that take a major toll on your health and your life. But recovery is possible. Eating disorders are more common than you might think. Chances are you know someone who is struggling with one, or maybe you're struggling yourself. If you're concerned about an eating disorder in yourself or a loved one, I want to introduce you to Equip. Equip is a fully virtual evidence based eating disorder treatment program that helps patients achieve lasting recovery at home. Every Equip patient is matched with a multidisciplinary care team that includes a therapist, dietitian, medical provider and mentors. And you get a personalized treatment plan that's tailored to your unique goals and challenges. Equip treats patients of all ages and all eating disorder diagnoses. It's covered by insurance and there's no wait list. If you think that you or a loved one could be struggling with an eating disorder, don't wait to get help. Visit Equip Health to learn more. That's Equip Health.
- [23:44]
Belle Burden
Yes, it was interesting to go through this on Martha's Vineyard. We arrived in March and then as the summer started people started coming back to this small area where we live where there is a private club. It's like a tennis club and it's a very married place. I had only known of a few people who were divorced and to navigate that as a newly not just single woman, not just divorced woman, but someone who was left by their husband was a strange thing and a challenging thing. And I do write about the difficult parts of that, which I think people focus on. But there was also so much kindness. It's a really loving, wonderful community, too. And people really took care of me. I had one friend who had me over to dinner every week and just fed me and took care of me and people walking with me and just checking in all the time. So there was so much kindness. But there were a few moments that felt very alienating and sexist as I look back on it. And that really devastated me in terms of, you know, recasting my story in a different way, in terms of saying that maybe I should not continue to be a member. And those were very painful. And some may look back at that and think, oh, she was very hurt. She's looking at it through different glasses. But these things happened. And I think I'm hoping it might be helpful for people to read about it and think about how they react to someone who's going through something like that. I talk about people moving towards me and people moving away from me, and there were just wonderful people who really moved towards me. I talk about that one man who just gets off his bike and comes to me and says, I'm so sorry that this happened. And what I've learned from that is when I have people in my life who are going through something difficult, the answer now is always to move towards them and to try and, you know, be upfront about it and just say, I'm sorry you're going through this.
- [25:52]
Interviewer
Which is such a good lesson. I mean, nobody's ever like, oh, I wish that person hadn't been so nice to me. When does that happen?
- [25:59]
Zibby Owens
Right.
- [26:00]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Yes.
- [26:01]
Belle Burden
Or I wish they hadn't said anything about it. You know, when you're. I think in general, even with someone who you perceive as private, it's just better to say something.
- [26:11]
Interviewer
Yeah. Because when everyone knows you're thinking it anyway, then it's just, like, weird, right?
- [26:16]
Zibby Owens
Yes.
- [26:17]
Interviewer
How is James and the book like, how are you handling this? Does he know this book is coming? He must, obviously. Was it legally okay to write all this stuff? Does he care? Just talk about that. How do you feel that this is out there?
- [26:32]
Belle Burden
And so I've been through four very rigorous legal reviews, both in the US and abroad, and I feel very comfortable with the book legally. I had to make choices about what to include and what not to include, which felt complicated at times. I don't really know because we don't communicate in that way. But I know that he has read it, which was a relief to get past that. And beyond that, I don't think he's happy about it, but I don't know anything in detail beyond that.
- [27:06]
Interviewer
Okay, well, at least it's the worst. May be over. I don't know.
- [27:12]
Belle Burden
And I do think this might be naive, but I do think there are parts of it that I think are helpful to him and to my kids, which are. I really try and reconstruct our life as a family, that we're really happy years. The years that he was a wonderful father. And I think when marriages end, the way minded you focus, people focus only on the ending. You focus only on the. I mean, myself, I only focus on the ending. And there was so much that came before that I wanted to bring back into the story.
- [27:50]
Interviewer
Yeah, well, you captured all of that really, really beautifully with your daughters. How. I think a lot of people go through when they go through traumatic events of their own. The question is how to parent your way through it and how will this affect the kids and all of that. Can you talk a little bit about that? And I know you go in detail in the book, which I loved, but just talk a little about that.
- [28:16]
Belle Burden
You know, I'm a child of divorce, and I'm very conscious of not wanting to speak badly about their dad, which may feel ironic because I've written a whole book about this, but I really try to be careful about that because I hated it when that happened in my life. But I also think kids need to have their reality acknowledged and not pretend that something is normal when it's not normal. So I really tried to say, like an example, because he did not want to create a. A place where they could spend the night. And I say, your dad, I don't know why, but he's not able to create a home for you right now. And that, to me, is better than saying everything's fine. What do you mean? There's nothing strange about this when they have friends who go back and forth. So I try and walk that line, but it's tricky. It's still tricky to do that. To try and be compassionate and not complaining, but to also make sure that they. I don't know, that they feel like their reality is acknowledged.
- [29:29]
Interviewer
That makes sense. Your writing style is beautiful, and I just ate it all up. What are some books that have been influential for you or that you love or have loved lately? Or a couple books on your shelf that you're like, oh, if only I could write like them, or I want my memoir to be like this one.
- [29:50]
Belle Burden
I'm so glad you asked that. I'm a big reader, and I love your podcast for that reason. I learned different books from you, but I love. I wanted this to not be a long book. I wanted it to be a book that you could read in one sitting where you get totally absorbed in it. I love Elizabeth Strout, so I thought a lot about her. I loved the recent Lily King. Same feeling. I just devoured it. And I love her writing style, so I would say both those were kind of guiding lights, both those writers. And I loved all of Lily's books, and I really liked to write in a more spare way, so they were inspiring in that way, too.
- [30:38]
Interviewer
Have you connected with Lilly King at all?
- [30:40]
Belle Burden
No, I have not. I would be starstruck if I did.
- [30:45]
Interviewer
Oh. I feel like I want to connect you. The two of you in conversation would be amazing. I want to somehow make that happen. That would be wonderful.
- [30:52]
Belle Burden
That would be amazing. Me.
- [30:54]
Interviewer
Oh, my gosh. Now that you have gotten this writing bug and realized, you know, you're good at this and all of that, like, what next do you want to keep writing? Is this. Do you want to try fiction? Like, what's coming up for you?
- [31:09]
Belle Burden
The most exciting part of this for me is that I hope that I can now have a life as a writer. Like, I just. That's just so thrilling to me and exciting to me that I can spend my days doing that. I still work on some nonfiction short pieces, but I don't want to write another memoir. I think one is enough for me, so I am turning to fiction, and I find it a lot harder, but it's what I loved to do when I was a teenager, so I'm really trying, and we'll see where that leads.
- [31:40]
Interviewer
That's great. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, it's a skill, right? You have to teach yourself how to do it.
- [31:46]
Belle Burden
And with memoir, it actually happened, so you have something to follow. But fiction is, you know, a lot harder.
- [31:52]
Interviewer
I. I agree. Any advice to an aspiring author?
- [31:56]
Belle Burden
Oh, just really go for it. I had no idea that this would happen. And I'm 56 years old, so it is truly never too late. And just write every day. That is, at whatever time of day works for you. For me, it's very, very early in the morning. But just write something every single day and then just submit it, because you just. You just don't know. And also, if you submit to modern love, be patient. It took nine months for me to hear back.
- [32:25]
Interviewer
Wow. And now that I heard you're 56, tell me your secret to skincare. Here because you look amazing and so.
- [32:31]
Belle Burden
Much younger than that. I do absolutely nothing. So it's a miracle that you are saying that, because there's no secret. There's a little moisturizer, and that is about it.
- [32:42]
Interviewer
Oh, my gosh. Okay. Very jealous.
- [32:45]
Belle Burden
Oh, my God.
- [32:46]
Interviewer
No, seriously, look at you. Oh, my God. Thank you so much. Thank you for this beautiful book. I'm so excited to talk more about it at book club and all of that, and I'm just. I just loved it. And I know other people are going to just love it, and I'm so excited that it's out there. And, yeah, I'm a huge fan.
- [33:06]
Belle Burden
Thank you so much, Siby. This is a perfect way to start. I really appreciate it.
- [33:10]
Interviewer
No problem. All right, well, I hope to see you in real life.
- [33:14]
Belle Burden
Me, too.
- [33:14]
Zibby Owens
Okay. All right.
- [33:16]
Interviewer
All right, bye.
- [33:17]
Zibby Owens
Thank you for listening to Totally booked with Siby, formerly Moms don't have time to read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ippyowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.