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- [00:00]
A
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A
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- [00:48]
A
Today's episode is sponsored by Nutrafol. Do you ever worry about your hair? I was convinced that my hair had gotten a little bit thinner once I reached a certain age, which had me in a complete panic. So, so I started taking Nutrafol and it helped. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement and the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. Nutrafol offers multiple formulas for men and women tailored to different life stages like postpartum or menopause and lifestyle factors. For all of you who abide by a plant based diet, I do not. Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. You just order online, no prescription needed. You get automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. Plus, with a Nutrafol subscription, you can save 20% and get added perks to support your hair health journey. You just take four supplements a day and you'll be on your way. Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster. Growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol. And for a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrafol.com and enter promo code ZIBBY. That's nutrafol.com spelled N u T R a F o L dot com promo code ZIBBY. Go do it. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underra authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibeowens. Marie Benedikt is the author of Daughters of Egypt, a novel. This was recorded live from our Palm beach retreat. This was the luncheon for book lovers that we hosted. And Marie is just such a rock star. She is the New York Times and USA Today best selling author of the Queens of Crime, the Mitford Affair, Her Hidden Genius, the mystery of Mrs. Christie, the only Woman in the Room, Lady Clementine, Carnegie's Maid, the Other Einstein, and with Victoria Christopher Murray, the Good Morning America Book Club pick, the Personal Librarian and the Target Book of the Year. The First Ladies all have been translated into multiple languages and many have been selected for the Barnes and Noble Book Club, Target Book Club, Costco Book Club, Indie Next List, and Library Reads List. She lives in Pittsburgh with her family. Welcome Marie, thanks so much for coming back on Totally Booked to talk about Daughter of Egypt.
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B
Thank you so much for having me. You know how much I always love to talk with you, but it's a special, huge treat to get it to do in the context of the Palm beach retreat. Can we get a round of applause for how fabulous it's been? I mean, it is just Chef's kiss, every aspect of it and getting to be in person with you. Usually I'm on zoom with Zippy and to be with so many incredible readers has just been such a gift and a treat.
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A
Well, I really appreciate you coming here and bringing your sister and everybody. So it's just very exciting.
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B
It's been wonderful.
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A
Yay. Okay, tell everybody about your latest book.
- [04:22]
B
Oh, gosh. All right. So Daughter of Egypt, let me invite you into the world of Daughter of Egypt. Let's start with that. So when you open the book, you're going to be stepping into the world of Lady Evelyn Herbert. She lives in Highclere Castle. Is anyone familiar with Highclere Castle? I see a lot of nodding. I love that it is the real life Downton Abbey. Lady Evelyn Herbert is the daughter of Lord Carnarvon. It's just after World War I and her father is a famous patron of Egyptian archaeology. And during the years of World War I, when they couldn't go on digs. She became a student of archeology with the famous archeologist Howard Carter. And she is determined to find the tomb of the only female pharaoh, Hatshepsut, who had the most successful, the most peaceful, the most egalitarian reign of any pharaoh of all time. But in the years after her reign had ended, her successor went around and chiseled out her likeness, her name, from every statue, every relief, every papyrus. So she was not known for millennia. That's how her book opens. And she sets out with her father and Howard Carter to find this tomb of this incredible. But instead, and this is kind of a spoiler, kind of not. She makes the largest archeological discovery of all time. She finds the tomb of Tutankhamun King Tut. Woven into this story is my take on the story of the pharaoh Hatshepsut. How she rose up to become this magnificent ruler, leader, peaceful leader, who brought together all these nations at a time when it was absolutely forbidden for a woman to do that. And the way in which she harnessed the power of symbolism to do so. Woven into both of their stories are two very different love stories as well.
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A
Well, you also, when you talk about how. Hatsheppet.
- [06:31]
B
You got it. Hatshepsut. Yeah, it's a tough one.
- [06:34]
A
My Egyptian is just not up to snuff.
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B
Me neither, Me neither.
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A
How she became pharaoh, you have a really heartbreaking scene where her brother passes away and the moment where she finds out and the family finds out. Talk a little bit about that and how she realizes in subsequent scenes that, like, she is the one who's gonna have to step up.
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B
Yeah, you know, the lineage in ancient Egypt and I have had to learn a lot about ancient Egyptian history. I don't read hieroglyphics, but, boy, it would have been handy. But the way in which people became rulers was it went family to family went from usually the sons. It was a solely male based leadership. But interestingly, the way in which you were kind of anointed as the leader is that you also came from a royal mother bloodline. So it really came from both sides. She had many brothers, but as was very common in the ancient world, most of her siblings died. And she had three or four brothers from the selected, the preferred bloodline who were meant to succeed or meant to be pharaoh. And all of them died. And she was left as the only really pure heir to the throne. Of course, because she was a woman, she wasn't considered worthy. So they married her to. And this is gonna sound really gross, and it is gross to her half brother. They married within the bloodline always. And the pharaohs had many wives. And he, without getting too many spoilers, she later has the opportunity to rise up and rule in her own stead. And what was amazing for me to see is the way in which she harnessed and every possible avenue available to her to do that and to do it for the common good. You know, she really, she became not only a ruler as a woman, she became a ruler unlike any other ruler. You know, she ruled by peaceable, forward progress. She formed alliances, she made treaties, she paid people fairly. She had the longest, most peaceable reign ever in Egypt. And because it was so unpalatable for a woman to be a ruler. If you go to Egypt, you can see on all these monuments, like literally the chisel marks still remain. But they just wanted to erase cancel culture event. Exactly. I love that. Let's bring it forward. It was the first cancel culture. Really. They were erasing her from history.
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A
Who, who would she be today? Like, is she like, if she was a modern day figure in some way, shape or form?
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B
Oh my gosh, that's such a good question. I think she's so many women. She's every woman who hasn't been given her due. It doesn't necessarily have to be a woman who was going to be a president or a leader of a company. She could be anyone in this room. We all have been at different points in our own lives, erased. Whether it's erased very overtly, like some of the other women I've written about who weren't giving credit for their scientific discoveries, or women who were behind a husband or a father who helped them lead a country. It could be so many. It could be just those of us in our lives who are, you know, the wheels behind everything, keeping everything afloat, but whose stories are never told. And that's why I think in many ways I've always wanted to tell Hatshepsut's story because I think she's so emblematic of so many women. And it's just that her story's really plain to see. The injustice of the way she was erased was, you know, I always talk about the way in which I go into the past and excavate these women whose stories have been erased. Well, like Hatshepsut was actually erased, you know, and so she really is a stand in for so many of us.
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A
I also really loved Eve's character. It's Eve, right? Yeah. Eve's character is so interesting because she is also doing groundbreaking things as A woman in the early 1900s who wants to be an archaeologist, who is like you talked about when the book opens, but she literally leaves a dance where her mother is desperately trying to marry her off, and she's, like, hiding in a back library, which I'm sure we can all relate to a little bit, trying to find all these. The latest discoveries, and has no interest in getting married off. She wants to do her thing and trailblaze and all of that. And her dad is, like, not so on board with that.
- [11:01]
B
Exactly. I mean, she had this. As many of us do, had this strong, abiding passion for the past. I mean, really, in some ways, Eve is me. I mean, that's who I was. I fell in love with the culture of ancient Egypt and some of these stories, like when I was a middle schooler. And so it's taken me. I don't want to date myself, but decades to get to the point of telling her story. But I think, you know, she. She was in a culture in many ways. There's so many parallels between her and Hatshepsut. It was very regimented. What was expected of her was very clear. Right. You know, you turn a certain age, you're presented into society within two years, you find a spouse in this particular society. These are who your acceptable sort of options are. And to have something else that you are passionate about that drives you just simply wasn't done for women. Her father could have 12 different pet hobbies. Car racing, running a stable, and racehorses. And he could be an Egyptologist. But her main job was to keep highclere Castle af, hopefully with money, because they were running out at this point.
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A
Well, it was also interesting that you put this in the context of the end of World War I and how essential her mother had been with the war effort and running a hospital and how she had been in helping all of that. And then suddenly, everything's supposed to be back to normal, which I also found to be something quite relatable, too, that sometimes the world shakes. And then you're like, wait, now we go back, like, post Covid. Like, this is it. This is now. We're not gonna even talk about this anymore.
- [12:36]
B
It's so funny you say that, because that's exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote that. You know, for those of you who've watched Downton Abbey, it is actually true that they converted Highclere Castle into a hospital during World War I. Her mother, Lady Elmina, she really became a totally different person during World War I. She rolled up her Sleeves. She became a nurse. She was, you know, one on one, tending to some of the worst wartime injuries. And Eve was right at her side doing that. And then it was over. And everyone was, like you said, supposed to pretend like nothing had happened, that they hadn't been transformed by this worldwide cataclysmic event. And isn't that all of us? Weren't we all stuck in our homes, worried about wiping down our groceries? I mean, I don't know about how many of you guys wiped down your groceries, but I sure did. Trying to figure out how to protect my family, how to do the next right thing, and then suddenly we're back out in the world. And I think that's very. You know, I always look for women who've left crucial legacies, which both of these women have. But I'm also looking for stories that are both historic and modern, that have threads that we can all relate to, tease out, and then bring something to our own lives. So think about the way in which we have experienced the world and maybe a fresh lens to look at that.
- [13:55]
A
Aside from pandemics and things that have affected all of us as a society, have there been any events or losses or things that happened to you where you're like, and now I'm supposed to go back into normal life again?
- [14:09]
B
Well, yeah, for sure. I mean, personal things that have happened. But I would say for me, it was more insidious always. You know, I grew up, I think I mentioned, as a lover of history. I went off to college. I thought I was going to be an archaeologist or a professor of history. And I kind of got diverted and became a lawyer, a commercial litigator in New York City for over a decade. My very dear friend who we started with on day one is right over there. But I always knew it wasn't what I was meant to be doing. I always knew this call to ferret out these little corners of the past and bring them out into the light of day. It was still there. I just didn't know how to manifest that. And yet I still had to get up every day, work 18 to 20 hours at the law firm, pretend as if I. I didn't know this truth about myself. And I think that also is something that a lot of us have experienced. You know, we mold and shape and transform ourselves into what is palatable or acceptable or celebrated by society. And yet that may not be the thing that's truest to ourselves. Right. And to go back in and have the courage to bring that thing forward and stop living as if everything was acceptable and normal is is a big. I mean and so that was Eve and that was me also.
- [15:31]
A
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- [17:23]
A
When you've done the work, you want your hydration to do the same. Introducing new Gatorade lower sugar now with no artificial flavors, sweeteners or colors and 75% less sugar and all the electrolytes of regular Gatorade now available nationwide. So I love all of your books because I learn about periods of time in a new way, from a new perspective. Things I didn't know this time about ancient Egypt and not that I've studied it in quite some time, but just you put us in the room where it happened, so to speak, and let us visualize ourselves and feel like we were there. What draws you to these particular periods of time? Yes, the women. But why these periods? And how do you find your next targets?
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B
Well, first of all, you know, as you know, I go where the women take me. You know, I find them, I follow. It could be any continent, any time period. I mean, this is definitely the furthest I've gone back. You know, 1500, 1400 B.C. it could be any subject matter. So I've had to learn physics and I mean, I'm not a scientist, you know, I've had to learn all these areas and I feel like so honor bound and so privileged to tell their stories that I will do whatever it takes to do that. But of course, there's always time periods that are especially attractive to me personally, like Ancient Egypt. I mean, obviously I didn't go to that very first time that the exhibit of King Tut's treasures toured the United States, but I certainly read about it, I've been fascinated by it. And so the opportunity to meld these two stories together and me, myself go into the past and learn about these time periods. You know, as a kid I always wanted to be like a time traveler. And like this is the closest I'm ever going to get is to learn enough that I can put myself back in that time and try and see that world through the eyes of somebody from that time period. And this was definitely the most challenging way to do that. I mean, ancient Egypt, in many ways, this is so seemingly inaccessible to us, but with a lot of research, a trip to Egypt, working with an Egyptologist, the incredible Dr. J.J. shirley, like I really, I did my best. We'll never know, but I write it down.
- [19:34]
A
Oh my gosh.
- [19:35]
B
But the thing about what I love that I do now, which I'm so glad I didn't become an archaeologist or professor, is that if you're a professor, you're stuck with one time period your whole career. That's it. I can go and shape shift into different time periods. And so there's so many eras that I love. Whether it's medieval times, I'm particularly drawn to kind of that Gilded Age, early 1900s time period. I also love the time period between the interwar period, between World War I and World War II. But I've written broadly about many periods. And most important to me is that it's a time period where I'm not just going into the past for its own sake. Although I did do a little bit of that with ancient Egypt. But normally it's because there's something in that time period that I can extrapolate from and learn from and bring back to this time period. So there's a lot of kind of elements. It's like some of the panelists earlier today were talking about the secret sauce, like how you put it all together. There's no one thing, but there are certain time periods which are, like, I don't know, especially glamorous or like in ancient Egypt, like, very gilded. You know, it just has something to it that's inherently alluring and I'm very drawn to.
- [20:54]
A
I'm wishing my high school history teacher had your enthusiasm for history.
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B
Thank you.
- [21:00]
A
So not only do you write your own historical novels, but you and Victoria Christopher Murray, who is amazing, co write books as well. Like the Personal Librarian. What is it like when you're writing? How do you even balance the ones you're writing yourself, the ones you're writing together, and what do you have coming out from both of you and also you yourself?
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B
Well, let's just clarify. I can't write them both at the same time. I would have to have, like, split personalities in order to do that. For sure. I write them in succession.
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A
I mean, you were doing even Headships, but at the same time. But.
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B
Well, that's true. Now that you say that, that is true. And with with the books with Victoria, you know, I'm so still, it's like there's a different layer. I'm still looking, as I always have been, to tell a story about a crucial woman from the past whose legacy we benefit from today. But we might not know their stories. Right. But my partnership with Victoria and our friendship and the kind of relationship we have with each other allows us to explore topics that are otherwise really hard to access. Issues around race, issues around building bridges across communities and differences and approaching it from a historical perspective, whether it's in one character, as we did in Personal Librarian, whether it's through the friendship of Mary McLeod Bethune, who was a black activist, and Eleanor Roosevelt, who I think we all know in the First Ladies and their friendship, or the book we have coming out, which I'll tell you about that relationship, that interplay that we have allows me and us to go places I can't go on my own, you know, and it's been a relationship and a collaboration that has changed my life, utterly changed the way I look at the world and how I interact with the world. And she and I are always looking for ways to kind of push and explore and utilize that relationship to kind of get into new nooks and crannies on these issues. So we have a book coming out at the end of June. It's called A Pair of Aces. And Victoria likes to put it this way. It's the story of a black prosecutor, a white madam and the mob. It's much more involved than that, to be honest. But that is. It's actually the story of one of the very first black assistant U.S. attorneys in the 1930s, Eunice Carter. And she was part of the Dewey Administrate, the Dewey Task Force. And the way in which she teamed up with the era's most famous brothel owner, Polly Adler. And the way these two women came together to bring down the most notorious mobster of the time period, which was Lucky Luciano. And it's a true story. It's kind of crazy, but again, a complete departure from ancient Egypt and from Lady Evelyn Carter. But you know, again, I always wanted to be a time traveler. And what's better than that, I get to go to 1930s New York where swanky Polly Adler is running unironically a brothel that has a bar with a King Tut theme. I mean, that's real. I could not possibly make that up and then actually write about the excavation and the discovery of King Tut's tomb. So in what other world could I do all those things?
- [24:16]
A
And are you also working on a solo book?
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B
Yes, I have another solo book coming out. It'll be next spring. I don't know that it's been publicly announced, but now's the time. Let's just put it this way. It's the story of a woman who was a self made woman, the richest woman and possibly the richest person in the world at a time period when you thought that JP Morgan, Carnegie Rockefeller were the most important influential financiers and industrialists and multimillionaires, it was really her. And she formed the foundation of sort of not banking specifically, but investment strategy that we still use that is the most successful strategy today. And she utilized her skill set to not only build this immense fortune, but ultimately you use it for good at a time period when most of her peers were using it to build Newport mansions. Not that there's anything wrong with a Newport mansion, mind you, but she just had a very different life philosophy and her life is really interesting and a very interesting juxtaposition with her Gilded Age peers.
- [25:36]
A
Does anybody know who this woman is?
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B
No.
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A
Any other guesses who just said that?
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B
You got it, girl.
- [25:45]
A
Whoa.
- [25:48]
B
It's the story of Hetty Green, who was actually reviled in the press. They created a whole Persona around her, really, to disparage and discredit her perspective. And in many ways, it was, like, such a great example of the way in which journalism is used for ill. But the good she did and the brilliance with which she approached investing and not just building wealth, but creating these enormous enterprises that were efficient and using that ultimate wealth for the betterment of other people.
- [26:27]
A
How do you even, like, first of all, how do you choose? I mean, there's so many amazing forgotten women in the world. Like, you don't have enough time to excavate all of them. How do you pick?
- [26:39]
B
It's so hard, Sibi. I mean, I have this, like, long, long list that I keep. I liken it to, like, a laundry list or to do list, but it's actually much longer than that.
- [26:49]
A
Why do they call it a laundry list? I don't know.
- [26:51]
B
Because I don't write a list of my laundry.
- [26:53]
A
Who writes their laundry in a list?
- [26:55]
B
Right. I don't want to ever write down.
- [26:58]
A
Does anyone know what they call it? A laundry list.
- [27:00]
B
That's so boring.
- [27:01]
A
It's things, too. I don't even like to do laundry anyway.
- [27:04]
B
Actually, that's my hated chore.
- [27:05]
A
But I don't mind laundry. Really? Yeah. I don't like unloading the dishwasher.
- [27:09]
B
Oh, I hate.
- [27:10]
A
Rather do laundry.
- [27:11]
B
Dishwasher.
- [27:11]
A
Now we're really off topic.
- [27:12]
B
Yeah. But a very, very important part of life. So I keep this running list because, you know, very often I find these women everywhere. Like, I could be. Let's take as an example. I could be writing a book about Belle da Costa Green, who was the star of the Persona Librarian. I didn't know anything about Ann Morgan, who was JP Morgan's daughter when I started that research. But the more I uncovered about her, she was leading a totally avant garde life. She was a gay woman in a world that was very unaccepting of that, who had all of these important projects that she did that really helped in the war effort. Just incredible. And, you know, so you've come across these women as your. So I add them to my list, and then I find them other ways in research and whatnot. But there's usually something about the time that I'm in or something that's going on in my own life that will attract me to one of the stories. Right. And sometimes I can't actually identify it. Specifically. But then afterwards, I'll look back and say, oh, that character was really struggling with, like, work, life, balance, and, like, mother issues. I have two boys, and I was trying to work through something I was struggling with but didn't consciously know it at the time. Or it could be something that's going on our world that I'm trying to process and make sense of. Sometimes it's conscious, sometimes it's subconscious, but that's usually how I land on one versus someone else. But I do feel bad. There's so many people on that list, and I would have to live to, like, 150 to get my way through all of them.
- [28:50]
A
Chop, chop.
- [28:51]
B
I'm trying. I'm doing a couple books a year. I don't know if I could write any faster.
- [28:57]
A
Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
- [29:00]
B
Oh, gosh, yes. Write like it's your job. I mean, it's. You know, I hear a lot of people who have fantastic ideas and a desire to write, but unless you approach it like it's a job that you do every day or at a set time, every day, regardless of whether the muse strikes you. Because sometimes the muse comes out to play, but very often the muse is, like, asleep or behind a cloud or. And you just have to keep going. And if you keep working, the muse will come eventually. Maybe not every day, but showing up is so important to that. Making it, treating it with the reverence and the respect that the act of creation deserves is a big part of that. That. This is gonna sound weird, but music, I always have a certain, like, soundtrack that I'm listening to or series of music that I'm listening to with a specific book. And there's been all these studies that show that that allows you to tap into almost like where you left off creatively. And I didn't believe it, but it actually works. It helps you a lot.
- [30:08]
A
Amazing. Marie, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you.
- [30:13]
B
It's been an absolute delight. Such a delight.
- [30:18]
A
Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review. Follow me on Instagram ippyowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books. All right, ladies, when you've done the work, you want your hydration to do the same. Introducing new Gatorade lower sugar, now with no artificial flavors, sweeteners, or colors. And 75% less sugar and all the electrolytes of regular Gatorade, now available nationwide.
- [30:55]
B
Hey, y' all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone. Picture this, you're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfair's app when you spot it. A brand new patio set.
- [31:07]
A
Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it
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B
right to your patio and sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill too. Alright, Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast expert setup on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app Wayfair Every Style, Every Home ACAST powers the World's best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.
- [31:35]
A
Hey, it's Christy and I'm Kelly. You might remember us as the OG
- [31:38]
B
Partners in Crime from Dance Moms.
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A
Well, this is Back to the Bar, the podcast where we drag out every insane, chaotic and iconic moment from the show.
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B
We're spilling the tea, calling out all
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B
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A
New episodes drop every week and yes,
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B
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