Beth Macy, PAPER GIRL: A Memoir of Home and Family in a Fractured America

Summary

Totally Booked with Zibby

Episode: Beth Macy, PAPER GIRL: A Memoir of Home and Family in a Fractured America
Host: Zibby Owens
Guest: Beth Macy
Date: October 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features journalist and bestselling author Beth Macy discussing her latest book, "Paper Girl: A Memoir of Home and Family in a Fractured America." Host Zibby Owens guides a conversation about Macy’s deeply personal exploration of her hometown in Ohio—a microcosm of America’s social and political divides, economic shifts, and eroding sense of shared reality. Macy draws on her journalistic roots to chronicle family estrangement, community upheaval, and the decline of the American middle class, while searching for hope and ways forward.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Origins of "Paper Girl"

• Catalyst for the Memoir
  • Macy explains how the book began with a 2020 New York Times op-ed, inspired by witnessing her family’s deepening divisions while her mother was dying:

    "My mother was dying... The hospice nurse said they called it for Biden. And my sister... said, 'You wait, it's fraudulent. He won't win...' And I just thought, what the heck has happened?" — Beth Macy (04:09)

  • Macy notes that political divides are now so extreme that "20% of Americans are estranged from family members because of politics." (05:09)

Portrait of a Fractured Hometown

• Changing Landscape & Hidden Struggles

  • Macy describes how her Ohio hometown, celebrated for historical progressivism, now displays Confederate flags and deep poverty beneath a picturesque veneer:

    "If you're driving through this town, which just won some 'best hometown in Ohio' award, it looks like Mayberry on the surface... but a block or two from town square, you see the underbelly playing out." — Beth Macy (06:54)

  • Shocking stats: Plummeting graduation rates, a tripling of foster care cases, and public institutions—like the local paper—hollowed out by hedge fund ownership (07:01).

• Disconnection and Isolation

  • The town’s class divide is stark:

    "It's the country club set and the ghetto set. And with the demise of the middle class, these two sets have no idea what's going on with each other." — Beth Macy (08:30)

The Local News Crisis & Misinformation

• Collapse of Community News
  • Macy describes how the local paper dwindled to "a couple Instagram posts and some press releases," leaving residents with little access to local happenings and vulnerable to misinformation:

    "People were watching hours of what was going on in Russia and developing fake ideas, and yet they don't know what's going on a mile from their house." — Zibby Owens (08:52)

Searching for Solutions & Personal Engagement

• Getting Active Locally

  • Macy urges listeners to engage civically—supporting local media, public education, and better political candidates. She connects broader policy changes to direct impacts in people’s lives:

    "We have to make alliances, and we need to start running better people for office. We need to support what little local media we have. We need to shore up our public education system." — Beth Macy (09:18)

  • She highlights public education funding loss as middle-class families flee public schools, compounding decline for those left behind (09:45).

• Encounters with Conspiracy and Estrangement

  • Macy reveals a personal saga: reconnecting with an old boyfriend (formerly liberal, now mired in QAnon), who suddenly becomes a local anti-immigrant leader. The relationship grows hostile:

    "A cop buddy of mine said, you need to carry a gun… I've never owned one. And it was just like, wow, are we really at this verge of being in a civil war? It really shook me." — Beth Macy (11:41)

Reporting, Substack, and Hopeful Stories

• Continuing to Report

  • Macy discusses using her Substack newsletter to cover underreported stories, connecting policy to individuals—like updating readers on a former addict who became a nurse thanks to Medicaid expansion:

    "I am a nurse!" (in all caps)—Ebony, Macy’s long-term profile subject (13:44)

  • Macy highlights Medicaid’s essential role for addiction recovery, expressing concern that cuts could reverse progress on the opioid crisis (14:55).

• Personal Activism

  • She describes joining regular rallies outside her congressman’s office, demanding accountability and local accessibility (15:53).

Pell Grants, Opportunity, and New Barriers

• Decline in Support for Poor Students
  • Macy recounts her own rise through Pell grants and how today’s aid covers far less:

    "Now if you're as poor per capita as I was, a Pell Grant is only going to pay for 30%. So me, born 15 years later, would not have been able to go to college." — Beth Macy (21:39)

  • She critiques the ongoing cuts:

    "LBJ said the secret to every problem of the world is education... But Reagan comes along... His secretary of education, William Bennett, says the idea that if a poor kid goes to college that's going to help America is sociological flim flammery." (25:37)

  • The barriers faced by contemporary “new Beth Macys,” such as Silas, illustrate why even scholarships are insufficient without broader support (26:35).

Division, Connection, and Glimmers of Optimism

• Family Estrangement and National Polarization

  • Macy and Zibby reflect on the increasing impossibility of even talking politics within families:

    "I'm certainly not the only one that has a hard time talking to her sister about politics. I mean, we don't even talk about it—like period anymore." — Beth Macy (28:12)

  • Zibby’s candid aside:

    "I feel like we are going to have a civil war. Where else is this leading?" — Zibby Owens (28:40)

• Small Shifts, Seeds of Change

  • Macy mentions hopeful moments: a lifelong friend deciding to "change my media diet" after reading the book, suggesting incremental personal shifts are possible (29:27).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It just opened me up in so many ways that people who don't get that experience not only don't get to see that, but they don't get the opportunity to give back and do meaningful work." — Beth Macy (22:55)
• "I was so busy raising my kids and having a career, it didn't really occur to me what had happened with the Pell Grant. And it got virtually zero press because who would be the lobbyist that would stand up for that?" — Beth Macy (24:31)
• "I wish I would. So, yeah, happy day." — Beth Macy, laughing at the heavy subject matter (29:20)
• "If it gets a few people to just go beyond that simple story that we have been fed in order to make corporations and wealthy people wealthier. That's all I can ask for." — Beth Macy (29:52)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:56 — Beth Macy introduces "Paper Girl" and its origin story
• 06:41 — Discussion of the decline in hometown institutions and social fabric
• 09:14 — Macy’s call to local civic action and media support
• 11:31 — Story of Macy’s ex-boyfriend, radicalization, and personal safety fears
• 12:29 — Using Substack for community storytelling and reporting on recovery
• 21:28 — Pell grants, education as an economic engine, and the impact of policy cuts
• 26:35 — Profile of Silas, the new generation facing compounded barriers
• 28:02 — Rebuilding dialogue and trust in a divided America
• 29:27 — Hopeful examples and small changes inspiring optimism
• 30:02 — Episode wrap-up

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Overall Tone & Concluding Thoughts

The conversation is candid, empathetic, and often sobering, yet interspersed with flashes of humor and hard-earned hope. Macy’s voice is that of an engaged reporter: dogged, nuanced, and always human-centered. Both Zibby and Beth leave listeners with urgent questions about community, democracy, and connection—and with stories that illuminate the consequences of ignoring what’s happening at home.

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For Further Engagement

• Beth Macy’s Substack and reporting can be found online.
• Zibby encourages listeners to seek out "Paper Girl" for a much fuller, in-depth portrait.
• The episode underscores the critical need to rebuild local news, support education, and find common language across America’s divides.

Transcript

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Today's episode has been sponsored by Paramount Pictures Corporation. Okay you guys, there is a movie coming out called Regretting youg based on Colleen Hoover's best selling book of the same name. I know many of you already know about this because I sent out an invitation to a screening when they so kindly gave us some tickets and over 250 of you asked for tickets even though at the time we only had 20. We got a lot more. Anyway, I know you're all already excited about this movie, but for those of you who don't know, let me tell you more about it. This is about Morgan Grant, played by Allison Williams and her daughter Clara, played by McKenna Grace, as they explore what's left behind after a devastating accident, reveals a shocking betrayal and forces them to confront family secrets, redefine love and rediscover each other. Regretting you as a story of growth, resilience and self discovery in the aftermath of tragedy. Also starring Dave Franco and Mason Thames. With Scott Eastwood and Willa Fitzgerald. In theaters October 24th. Are you excited? I am so excited. Director Josh Boone is the one who did the Fault in Our Stars, obviously Colleen Hoover. It's about mother, daughter, relationships, heartbreak, grief, first love, second chances. It's the perfect film to share with your best friend, mom, grandmother, high school niece. It's filled with love and tears and laughter. Everyone will love it. Honestly, I cannot wait to see this movie. Come with us to one of the screenings. Watch it along. Send me notes on Instagram. I want to hear what you say. We'll all watch it together.

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Regretting you.

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Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram. Iby Owens Beth Macy is the author of Paper Girl, A Memoir of Home and Family in a Fractured America. Beth has won more than two dozen national journalism awards, including a Nieman Fellowship for Journalism at Harvard University, a Guggenheim Fellowship, and a Los Angeles Times Book Prize for Dopesick, which was made into a Peabody Award winning series for Hulu. Three of her books have been New York Times bestsellers. She lives in Roanoke, Virginia. Welcome Beth. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about Paper, a memoir of hope and family in a fractured America. Congratulations.

[A]

Thank you so much, Libby. It's an honor to be here.

[B]

Oh my gosh. Can you tell listeners what your book is about?

[A]

Sure. This book grew out of a op ed piece I wrote for the New York Times in 2020. It was right after the election and I couldn't figure out what was happening to my hometown and my family. My mother was dying. She was in her 90s and had had a stroke. And it happened to be this Saturday after the 2020 election and she was literally breathing her last breaths. And the hospice nurse said they called it for Biden. And my sister, who was evangelical and had long been but had never really been political before, said, you wait, it's fraudulent. He won't win and mom is. And I just thought, what the heck has happened? And so I grew up in this small town in western Ohio. It was a place that had been a celebrated stop on the Underground Railroad. And when I had noticed, as I was going home more as my mom was sick, I live in Virginia. There were now Confederate flags dotting the streets and my relatives and I no longer agreed on basic facts, even the weather and what was causing all the storms. So I thought after I wrote this piece in the Times and I got so much feedback in like one hour, I thought, wow, I'm not the only one going through this. And it turns out 20% of Americans are Estranged from family members because of politics. And we weren't exactly estranged, but I decided to like. For two years, I went home, I spent about a week every month embedding in my hometown, which I hadn't lived in in 40 years, to find out what was left of the people I loved, who raised me, and what, if anything, was left of my family.

[B]

Wow. Well, the way you tell the story, sort of weaving in your own experiences and the experiences of people in the town paints a portrait of a town not just affected by politics, but just so much strife, so much bad luck, so many, such a lack of opportunity for the people there and sort of the whole class of people who can no longer find their way. And you show us example after example of this and you show a lot about your own family and your parents and all of that, which let us see who you are as a person, which I also found fascinating. And then to see you digging deep into what happened since I found absolutely, absolutely fascinating and eye opening about what, as you said, is happening in so many places.

[A]

So, yeah, I mean, I think we all live in bubbles no matter what our bubble is. Pretty much everybody. And so it was, quite frankly, even though I was always in touch with my relatives, it was a shock. It was a shock to me that graduation rates had plummeted in 10 years, that the number of kids in foster care had tripled. That. I mean, these are things you would never know. If you're driving through this town, which just some won some best hometown in Ohio award, it looks like Mayberry on. On the surface, and it's got some cool stuff going on, some new stuff, but, you know, a block or two from the town square, you see the underbelly playing out. And. And the thing that, I mean, the reason why I was so just. It felt so urgent to me is because I had once delivered that paper. I had written for papers. I wrote for papers for almost 30 years, including the paper I delivered when I was little. That was one of my college internship jobs. It's still there, but it's owned by a hedge fund. And there are basically one and a half reporters. They can't even cover city council anymore. All the stuff I was finding out on my research, I was telling other people and they didn't really know. I mean, some did. The teachers know what's going on. The guy who runs the youth center knows what's going. What's going on. The police chief. The police chief who has watched emergency mental health calls increase by a factor of nine in 40 years. He knows what's going on. But as someone near the end of the book says, in Urbana, it's the country club set and the ghetto set. And with the demise of the middle class, these two sets have no idea what's going on with each other. So the whole exercise was really eye opening, and there were some hopeful parts, but it was also a mixed bag.

[B]

And so after this whole experience and having written the book, what next? What can we do before more towns keep sliding? I mean, your example of the paper, I know you mentioned that, you know, the paper became like a couple Instagram posts and some press releases, and, like, where is the news? How do people record that? People were watching hours of, you know, what was going on in Russia and developing all these fake ideas, and yet they don't know what's going on a mile from their house. Like, how do we combat things like that? What do we do about it?

[A]

Yeah, well, I think we all have to get active in our own communities right now. I have gotten much more politically active since. Even since I finished writing this. I think we have to make alliances, and we need to start running better people for office. We need to support what little local media we have. We need to. I mean, one of the reasons we need better people running things is because we need to shore up our public education system, which is so under attack these days with all these private school vouchers. And, you know, in my hometown, as the middle class thinned out, the middle class families who were still there, they were witnessing the decline. They start sending their kid to an adjacent school district, and then that money goes with them to this more rural farmland. Not so distress. And when that money goes with them, it just hurts everybody that's left behind. And the same with the private school. The real shocker was just every single factory owner I talked to was hard up for employees and were having just terrible attendance issues. And in the school, there was a parallel glut of people showing up as well. So, you know, we know that attendance went down during COVID but in the places least likely to really go out there and do some of the programs, I write about the good examples happening elsewhere. I mean, they just don't have the funding for stuff like that. So it's the same kids not showing up for school are the kids of parents who aren't showing up for work. And, I mean, I was shocked when that Springfield story with the Haitian migrants blew up. I mean, that's like 20 minutes away from Urbana. And I had been interviewing my ex boyfriend, who I hadn't seen in 38 years. And I knew he had gone from being extremely liberal Bernie Sanders to holy cow, a total 180 deep into QAnon and other conspiracies and watching four to seven hours of Russian propaganda every day. And then suddenly I felt like I was in the Forrest Gump movie. He emerges as the leader of the anti Haitian pushback in Springfield. And there he is on PBS NewsHour and all these other shows. And at that point, he had gotten so almost verbally abusive to me that I cut off contact. And a cop buddy of mine said, you need to carry a gun. I'm not totally anti gun. I think there need to be serious restrictions, but I've never owned one. And it was just like, wow, are we really at this verge of being in a civil war? It really shook me.

[B]

Wow, my gosh. How do you then go back to your life in Virginia after a week? Like, how are you doing that emotionally? The shifting back and forth, uncovering and writing and trying to process something that shifted quietly and in a deadly way right under our noses. Right.

[A]

I know. Well, one of the things I've done, and I'll admit I started doing it just as a way to promote that the book was coming out. I've also always had author newsletters I did with Dopesick and Going Back to Factory man, where I would tell people it was mostly about my stuff. And then I was like the local media here, where I live in a moderate sized city, it's about an urban area of about 300,000. We also have experienced the same decline in news. So I started using my substack as a way to tell stories of how the new Trump administration's cuts and policy choices were impacting real people on the ground here. And that's been, I mean, it's really fun. I'm basically a paper girl at heart. I'm still a reporter. And so, like today I just published a substack about it was an update on this woman I had written about in 2014 who, when she got out of prison, heroin, drug related crime, she was able to be hired by this nail salon that was only hiring felons as a way to help them reenter the workforce. And when I first wrote about her, like, she was a huge success, but in her goal of goals, she always wanted to be a nurse. And the salon owner took her under her wing. One of her patrons happened to be the hospital CEO and encouraged her to go into nursing. And she did with a lot of help. And I was on vacation recently, and I got an all caps email from her 11 years later and on her third try at nursing school. All caps. I am a nurse, exclamation point. So, like, and you see when, I mean, that's what I think we fall for the easy story. But I know I learned best through a person. And when you can see a woman like Ebony, that's her name, like, she had to rely on Medicaid, she had to rely on snap. Both of those programs are being cut. She's now a. She works for a rehab, a drug rehab center, and she helps people in recovery, some of whom are also coming out of jail. But that rehab is paid for because of the Medicaid expansion in Virginia and which was a huge portal for particularly men who we know die at a rate of two to three times more than women with substance use disorders die. That was really. Medicaid has become their lifeline. And a lot of people who are more experts than I believe that these Medicaid cuts are really going to set us back 30 years on the opioid crisis. So I'm just learning how to connect the dots because I'm not, not to disparage my media colleagues. There just aren't enough of them. And so that's been really eye opening and interesting, too. And then I've also just become like, I go to these rallies every Monday at noon. A bunch of people meet outside of our no show congressman's office, asking for a town hall. We've done it every single week since President's Day in February. Asking for a town hall and trying to get him to explain his support from these policies.

[B]

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[A]

And that's something you wouldn't notice if unless it was on your radar. I didn't notice it until I started teaching at our local community college and I realized there was this huge stigma against Pell grant holders and I'm like wait guys I was a Pell Grant holder. Now when I went to college and went to a four year state school in Ohio, we were so poor that I got a full Pell Grant and it paid for everything. You know, College was like $2,300 a year, right? It wasn't a lot, but it paid 100%. Now if you're as poor per capita as I was, a Pell Grant is only going to pay for 30%. So me, born 15 years later, would not have been able to go to college, which would have been awful for me. I say going to college saved my life. But also, if you think about it, it's just, it's not fiscally sound. I have more than paid back 100 times over anything I got from a grant with my taxes because I earned so much more money and have been able to have a family and a very stable middle class, middle class life that otherwise had never been available to me before. And you know, I get asked to give graduation speeches a lot. And I always tell the story of feeling like a food stamp recipient in line at a Whole Foods the first time I showed up at my cost cutter college because everybody had beer and pizza money. You know, I had to have three jobs, but. Which was fine, but it was just, it just opened me up in so many ways that people who don't get that experience not only don't get to see that, but they don't give, they don't get the opportunity to give back and do meaningful work that helps their communities. Not everyone, but by and large, particularly since the dumping of opioids in these very same communities where the factory jobs went away. I mean, I write about that a lot in Dopesick and then in the follow up book in the communities where the jobs went away, or in particular the same communities the big pharma companies targeted because there were lots of people on Medicaid, people with workplace injuries, legitimate injuries, who needed meds. And then they, you know, they did their pitch saying that this drug is non addictive. And so you saw that playing out in Urbana as well as Appalachia and in cities and towns all over America. But I was so busy raising my kids and having a career, it didn't really occur to me what had happened with the Pell Grant. And it got, it got virtually zero press because who would be the lobbyist that would stand up for that? Like they're just. There were a few but not many. And so that was a really interesting thing. I had this hunch that that happened. But really to Go out and report it and, and see the figures. It was, it was astonishing. And you know, it goes back to Reagan's secretary of Education called the idea that education, you know, lbg, LBJ said the secret to every problem of the world is education. That's profoundly moving to me because it was for me. But Reagan comes along in the 80s and starts the first real cuts of these programs. His secretary of education, William Bennett says the idea that if a poor kid goes to college and that's going to help America is sociological flim flammery. And I mean we were just sold a bill of goods about that. And it's that same thread that you're seeing coming out now in Project 2025 and the dissolution of the Department of Ed that's coming. And just, just one more story if I may. I knew that when I started going back because I learned through people better than I learned through studies and academics. I wanted to pick a young me. I went all over town asking teachers, counselors who was a. Because I was a good student. I wasn't top of the class, but I was in the top 15 who was a promising poor kid. And everybody pointed to the same kid. And he happened to be the director, the student director of the band, the drum major. And I was the president of the band. So the same Urbana Hill Climbers marching band. Only the, only the band is now a quarter the size we used to spell out the word hill climber in the field with our bodies. Now they can barely spell out the word Ohio. And Silas, I watched him at graduation. He gets a full scholarship to a nearby community college. But it's actually, it's rural, so it's an hour away. And that full scholarship isn't going to pay for him to have reliable transportation. So I watch him go through a series of five clunker car, something like four different jobs just during this ten month certificate program to become a welder. And the difference in us because I would go back to these teachers and I would report what I was seeing, what was happening with Silas and so much family drama. Dad overdosed and died. Mom is in and out of prison. He was homeless junior and senior years of high school. I mean so much my trauma would fit on Silas's pinky. He has so much more trauma than I have. But when I would go back to report that to the people who suggested he's the one I profiled, they would said, yeah, that's the new Beth Macy. And that was like, oh, that just got me. Because it, because he is he's gutsier and grittier and smarter than I was and hats off to him. And he's now raising his two younger siblings. He just turned 20.

[B]

Oh my gosh. Well, I appreciate you introducing us to Silas in the book and all of breaking it down the way you described it now, but really in detail in the book of this is why this is not going to work out for him. These are the obstacles people don't think about. This is what's getting in the way. It's not enough to give a scholarship even if you're lucky enough. And just really spelling it out for people who haven't thought a lot about the ins and outs and what that means and, and therefore how change can happen as a result is really important.

[A]

And also it's also an explanation for why we're so divided too, you know, so like, I'm certainly not the only one that has a hard time talking to her sister about politics. I mean, we don't even talk about it like period anymore and. But we have to find a way to have a common language again. Our trust is so broken down now. Yeah. And I don't know how you do that other than having conversations, getting really active in your local communities and rebuilding up networks that can help build back trust and community.

[B]

I did say the same thing, by the way, to my husband the other day. I was like, I feel like we are going to have a civil war. Where else is this leading? Everything is so divided. I feel like this is actually in the cards. And anyway, the fact that every day.

[A]

There'S a new fresh hell about it. Yeah. Like the gerrymander in Texas. So they flee and then the people in California are going to do the same thing. And it's like somebody in my book says we're going to end up in little districts all clustered with like minded people, like in the Hunger Games. I think of that almost every time I read the news.

[B]

My gosh. Great. Well, this is depressing. Thanks for sharing.

[A]

I wish I would. So, yeah, happy day.

[C]

I was having no time for ice cream.

[A]

There is hope. There were people like that I reconnected with and you know, one of my best friends, I've known her Since I was 4, she's a business leader in the town. She read an early copy and she said, you know, I think I'm going to change my media diet. Wow, Betty, good on you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And some people aren't going to like it. And you know, if it gets a few people to just go beyond that simple story that we have been fed in order to make corporations and wealthy people wealthier. That's all I can ask for.

[B]

Well, thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate it.

[A]

I appreciate it.

[B]

Okay, take care. Bye. Bye.

[A]

Take care.

[B]

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, izippyowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

[C]

Today's episode has been sponsored by Paramount Pictures Corporation. Okay, you guys, there is a movie coming out called Regretting youg based on Colleen Hoover's best selling book of the same name. I know many of you already know about this because I sent out an invitation to a screening when they so kindly gave us some tickets and over 250 of you asked for tickets even though at the time we only had 20. We got a lot more. Anyway, I know you're all already excited about this movie, but for those of you who don't know, let me tell you more about it. This is about Morgan Grant, played by Allison Williams, and her daughter Clara, played by McKenna Grace, as they explore what's left behind after a devastating accident, reveals a shocking betrayal and forces them to confront family secrets, redefine love and rediscover each other. Regretting you as a story of growth, resilience and self discovery in the aftermath of tragedy. Also starring Dave Franco and Mason Thames. With Scott Eastwood and Willa Fitzgerald. In theaters October 24th. Are you excited? I am so excited. Director Josh Boone is the one who did the Fault in Our stars, obviously Colleen Hoover. It's about mother, daughter relationships, heartbreak, grief, first love, second chances. It's the perfect film to share with your best friend, mom, grandmother, high school niece. It's filled with love and tears and laughter. Everyone will love it. Honestly, I cannot wait to see this movie. Come with us to one of the screenings. Watch it along, send me notes on Instagram. I want to hear what you say. We'll all watch it together.

[B]

Check it out.

[C]

Regretting you.

[A]

Acast powers, the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[E]

On his first day back in the White House, Donald Trump signed a controversial executive order stating that there are only two genders, male and female, and that those genders are tied to biological, sexual. This statement was simple and devastating, and it signaled that the gender backlash had reached a boiling point. I'm Julie Koehler, the host of White Picket Fence. This season we're examining the many faces of this gender backlash, how it's showing up in our politics and culture. It's a scary time, but it's also a moment for imagination. What becomes possible when we imagine a better future? Subscribe to White Picket Fence Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[D]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[A]

Acast.com.