Bookstore Owner + NYT Bestselling Author Jenny Lawson on How to Be Okay When Nothing is Okay

Summary

Totally Booked with Zibby
Episode: Bookstore Owner + NYT Bestselling Author Jenny Lawson on How to Be Okay When Nothing is Okay
Date: April 9, 2026
Host: Zibby Owens | Guest: Jenny Lawson

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and heartfelt episode, Zibby Owens welcomes back Jenny Lawson—bestselling author and bookstore owner—to discuss her latest book, How to Be Okay When Nothing is Okay. Known for her candid humor while tackling tough subjects like mental health and chronic pain, Jenny shares personal insights, practical tips, and vulnerable stories from writing her new book. The conversation covers topics from ADHD and imposter syndrome to the realities of running an independent bookstore, creativity, and self-acceptance. The episode is a blend of laughter, wisdom, and genuine connection—offering listeners encouragement to embrace imperfection and find their unique paths through challenging times.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Jenny’s Approach to "How to Be Okay When Nothing is Okay"

• Writing for the Overwhelmed:
  Jenny admits she struggles with self-help books and wanted to write for people who, like her, might feel "overwhelmed" by traditional advice.
  Quote:
  “I've never done like self helpy kind of stuff and I'm not good at reading self help myself because I get so easily overwhelmed... I thought, well maybe I'll write a book for people who are not good at self help but who maybe need a little bit of encouragement and inspiration."
  (04:03, Jenny Lawson)

• Tips & Tricks for Hard Times:
  Emphasizes her book isn’t about offering definitive answers, but sharing small, manageable strategies for facing tough moments.

Mental Health, ADHD, and the Reality of Daily Struggles

• Living with ADHD:
  Jenny details how ADHD is more than forgetfulness—it’s exhausting and frustrating, with sensory distractions like the hum of fluorescent lights making it hard to focus.
  Quote:
  “It's very easy to look at it in sort of a whimsical way... But truly, when you're struggling with it, it is absolutely exhausting and incredibly frustrating."
  (05:33, Jenny Lawson)

• Tools for Coping:
  Describes using “pink noise” (a type of color noise) for focus and being forgiving of her productivity struggles by tracking work in short sprints.
  (06:30)

Creativity, Imposter Syndrome, and Redefining Success

• Facing Self-Doubt:
  Jenny admits to chronic imposter syndrome, even after publishing multiple bestsellers.
  Quote:
  “I constantly doubt myself, I feel like at any moment somebody's going to say, 'Oh, this is the book where we realize, you know, she's not that funny or she's not that interesting.'"
  (08:01, Jenny Lawson)

• Rethinking Success:
  Achieving external markers didn't cure her self-doubt. Instead, success became about "knowing my family's happy" rather than bestseller lists.
  (09:32–10:15)

• Turning Criticism into Strength:
  Jenny shares a favorite story about turning a one-star review of her bookstore into a bestselling sweatshirt—a lesson in "leaning into" rejection.
  Quote:
  “Sometimes, you get those nasty reviews and you have to just lean into them."
  (10:57, Jenny Lawson)

• On Reviews:
  She avoids reading most reviews and relies on trusted friends to filter feedback:
  “Your reviews technically are not any of your business."
  (13:16, Jenny Lawson)

Bookstore Ownership & Community

• Challenges and Rewards:
  Running Nowhere Bookshop in Texas is “so much harder than you think it's going to be, but it is also so much more rewarding.”
  (16:37, Jenny Lawson)

• Creating Community:
  Shares a moving story about a customer honoring her late mother by donating kids’ books with sticky-note messages.
  Quote:
  “It’s really found its feet as just a wonderful community place where people come together and to talk and to meet and to just hang out in the bar and... it makes me so happy.”
  (14:52–16:13, Jenny Lawson)

• The Magic of Bookselling:
  Both Zibby and Jenny reflect on the joys and anxieties of handselling books and running book clubs.

Embracing Mistakes and Lifelong Learning

• Admitting and Learning from Goofs:
  Jenny recounts a funny moment misunderstanding book release dates, and views such errors as evidence of growth, not failure.
  Quote:
  “Maybe this is exactly the path I'm supposed to be on. Because I'm continuing to learn. And that's the only way that you have a life that's exciting.”
  (22:04–23:33, Jenny Lawson)

Creativity, Accountability, and Self-Compassion

• Substack Doodles & Public Accountability:
  Jenny finds motivation for her creative doodles by sharing them on Substack:
  “If maybe, you know, five people join the substack, then I'll have five people who were like, okay, I'm waiting for you. I know this is the deadline..."
  (24:14, Jenny Lawson)

• Why Taking Time for Yourself Matters—Especially for Women:
  “If you're doing the work that gives back to you, then you have the strength to give back to others. Plus, I'm, like, demonstrating for my kid. This is how you take time for yourself.”
  (25:25, Jenny Lawson)

• Mindset Shifts for Self-Kindness:
  Jenny gives herself permission to treat herself with the same care as her beloved pet or child, reframing self-care as essential, not selfish.
  Quote:
  “If I'm not giving myself the same things that I would give to a dog, then I need to kind of reassess..."
  (30:16, Jenny Lawson)

The Power of Connection (and Cats)

• Courage to Ask for Help—Even in Quirky Ways:
  Jenny describes asking neighbors on the Nextdoor app if she could borrow a kitten for company, building unexpected community connections and spreading kindness.
  Quote:
  “Reaching out and asking for help, even in the weirdest possible way, there's almost always going to be somebody who's like, 'Oh, yeah, same, same club. We're the same kind of weird.'"
  (33:10, Jenny Lawson)

Memorable Quotes & Closing Reflections

• On First Drafts:
  Zibby highlights a favorite quote Jenny included:
  “I’m writing a first draft and reminding myself that I’m simply shoveling sand into a box so that later I can build castles.” —Shannon Hale
  (33:40, Zibby Owens)

• Affirming Each Other:
  The episode ends on a mutual note of gratitude, creativity, and hope.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• “Maybe I'll write a book for people who are not good at self help but who maybe need a little bit of encouragement and inspiration.”
  (04:03, Jenny Lawson)

• “Any sort of little distraction can be something that I'm actively having to focus on in my head instead of the thing that I really want to be focusing on, which can be so incredibly frustrating.”
  (05:33, Jenny Lawson)

• “It is so much harder than you think it's going to be, but it is also so much more rewarding.”
  (16:37, Jenny Lawson)

• “Your reviews technically are not any of your business.”
  (13:16, Jenny Lawson)

• “If you’re doing the work that gives back to you, then you have the strength to give back to others.”
  (25:25, Jenny Lawson)

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Important Episode Segments (Timestamps)

• 03:37 — Jenny greets Zibby and discusses the vulnerability of writing her first semi–self-help book.
• 05:33 — Living with ADHD; sensory overload and focus hacks.
• 08:01 — Imposter syndrome, self-doubt, and redefining personal success.
• 10:57 — Transforming negative bookstore reviews into a positive, community-driven experience.
• 14:52 — Building community through Nowhere Bookshop and touching tribute by a customer.
• 22:04 — Learning through mistakes as a bookstore owner.
• 24:14 — Using Substack as daily creative accountability.
• 30:16 — Treating oneself with same compassion as a beloved pet.
• 33:10 — Finding help and community in unexpected places.

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Episode Takeaways

• Success and happiness look different for everyone.
• Mistakes are part of growth, not signs of failure.
• Meaningful community can be built through bookstores, creativity, and vulnerability.
• Small, practical strategies help you “be okay when nothing is okay.”
• Even “strange” self-kindness rituals—and feline therapy—are valid forms of healing.
• Creativity and connection are vital, especially when the world feels overwhelming.

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This episode is essential listening for anyone feeling overwhelmed, self-critical, or uncertain—offering not just inspiration but concrete permission to embrace your own “weird,” make mistakes, and find strength in connection and self-acceptance.

Transcript

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[Zibby Owens]

hi, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. Bottomless apps for $9.99 are back at Buffalo Wild Wings so you can mix and match favorites like mott sticks, fried pickles, onion rings, hatch queso and chips and salsa. It's perfect for a girls night, a double date, or just a full on yapping session. Order your apps and keep them coming while you spiral on the same gossip from every possible angle. So grab your besties or your frenemies and head to Buffalo Wild Wings to get bottomless apps for $9.99 while you still can. Today's episode is sponsored by Nutrafol. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. I love Nutrafol. I started feeling like my hair was thinning a little bit. So I started researching and found that Nutrafol has growth supplements that are peer reviewed, NSF certified for sport and clinically tested. They seem to be the best and I only want the best for my hair. So I want you to worry less. Don't let hair be something on your worry list. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol and enter promo code Zibby. So please go do that. That's Nutrafol.com spelled N u t r a f o l.com promo code ZIBBY. Please do it right now. You won't regret it. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram IBBEowens. Jenny Lawson is the author of how to Be okay When Nothing Is okay. Tips and Tricks that Kept Me Alive, Happy and Creative in Spite of myself. Jenny, who goes by the Bloggists, is the number one New York Times best selling author, known for her humor in writing about hard subjects including mental illness, chronic pain and more. Her books include let's Pretend this Never Happened, Furiously Happy, Broken, you Are Here and Now, how to Be okay When Nothing Is okay. This is Jenny's I don't know, second, third, fourth multiple times on the podcast. She also owns Nowhere Bookshop in Texas, which we talk about and was fun to talk shop with another bookstore owner. Jenny, welcome back on Totally Booked to talk about how to be okay when nothing is okay. Congratulations.

[Jenny Lawson]

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be back.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh my gosh. I think. I mean I have to say, am I allowed to say this? This is definitely my favorite book of yours. They're all so good but this one has something for everybody. There are things that I've taken away in all different parts of the book cause you have so many great helpful sections which will help me, which will help people I love. Which I mean it's just awesome and it's so funny and so you and so perfect. I loved it. It was really good.

[Jenny Lawson]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This was a scary book to write because I've never done like self helpy kind of stuff and I'm not good at reading self help myself because I get so easily overwhel and so I thought well maybe I'll write a book for people who are not good at self help but who maybe need a little bit of encouragement and inspiration. Even though I don't technically have any real answers, it's really more just. I always like to tell people it's really just more little tips and tricks and things that can help you through some of the worst parts of the world and your own brain and yeah, all of that stuff because there's a lot going on right now.

[Zibby Owens]

There is a lot going on. And by the way, I have left my clothes in the washer too many times to count. I know not, I don't know that they've actually started to smell mildeweed but that's because I just like quickly toss them in the dryer without inhaling. So perhaps. But it was nice to know that even that we're all just so distracted. And obviously having an ADHD brain is one thing, and you clearly differentiate that. Maybe start there, talk a little bit about that and the way you write about it. And you said at one point when the lights were getting louder or something, and you're like, that will make sense to people with adhd. I love that.

[Jenny Lawson]

Yeah. So different things show up in different ways for different people. So this is gonna be. This is really sort of my experience, but I have seen it sort of across the board for a lot of other people who struggle with adhd. And that is. It's not just a like, oh, I'm kind of forgetful. Oh, I'm kind of lazy.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh.

[Jenny Lawson]

Because it's very easy to have it. Look at it in sort of a whimsical sort of way. But truly, when you're struggling with it, it is absolutely exhausting and incredibly frustrating. And even things as simple as the noises that come from fluorescent lights can be enough to make me feel like I'm losing my mind. Any sort of little distraction can be something that I'm actively having to focus on in my head instead of the thing that I really want to be focusing on, which can be so incredibly frustrating. And for me, I talk about all these little tips and tricks and tools, but that one in particular is, well, first of all, I turn off any of the fluorescent lights if I have access to them. And then the other thing is that I listen to color noise. So, like, pink noise is the one that works best for me. Or, you know, I talk about all the different types in my book. And in particular, pink noise is really helpful for me because I will put on. There's just like a YouTube thing that's a 30 minute pink noise that I'll put on and I'll notice as I'm working, all of a sudden I'll start to get really distracted again. And then I will look up and I'll be like, oh, the pink noise is over. And first of all, it just reminds me that this is a legitimate thing. But secondly, it's really kind of wonderful because every time I get to the point where I'm like, oh, oh, okay, I got to start it again. I'm like, oh, I actually did work for 30 minutes because it's so easy to get to the end of the day and think, I did nothing. I didn't accomplish anything. But if you're really in the moment going, oh, wait, okay, that 30 minutes that I spent writing or answering emails or that actually was legitimate work that got done.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah, it counts. It all counts.

[Jenny Lawson]

Exactly.

[Zibby Owens]

And I love how you talk about even getting into your creativity and imposter syndrome and not like judging yourself too much and just letting the stuff come out. A lot of people need to hear

[Jenny Lawson]

that, talk about that. Yeah. So I struggle with imposter syndrome. And I thought that, I thought that, well, you know, if I can prove to myself that I'm not an imposter, that because for me, it comes out as I constantly doubt myself, I feel like at any moment somebody's going to say, oh, this is the book where we realize, you know, she's not that funny or she's not that interesting. We actually don't like her. What's going on? And so when my first book, it was a number one New York Times bestseller, and people were like, look, overnight success. And I absolutely was an overnight success, if you didn't count the 12 years it took me to write that book. But what I found is that when I did succeed and do the things that I thought would prove, oh, okay, well, this is how you get out of imposter syndrome and self doubt. What happened was the cognitive dissonance was even stronger because first of all, it felt like, oh, okay, well, there's no, no place to go but down now. And secondly, it just felt like the stakes were even higher and I didn't feel any relief from the self doubt and the imposter syndrome, which was so disappointing. But it was really helpful in the end because it gave me an idea to look again at. Well, what does success really look like? What is that? If this is not it, if it's not that I have to be on the New York Times bestseller list or I have to sell a certain number of this, or I have to this or that I could go through and really decide, but what does success really look like for me? And everybody's different, right? For me, success, it turns out success means that I'm secure enough that I know that my family's happy. And that's the thing that I strive for. And because I can look at it and go, okay, this is the actual thing. Instead of what the world is telling me what I should want, it gives me such a better idea of how to prioritize. And when I can prioritize those things, that's good for me, for my family, for everybody.

[Zibby Owens]

And then it makes you kind of lean into the strengths that you have and that make you you. Which is what I also think people need to take away from this because you have a moment in here where you're like, you know, can I even write this way? I'm cursing all the time. Some of this is train of thought. Like, can I do these snippets? Can I write like this? And you took inspiration from other authors and you're like, well, I'm just gonna do it. And then when someone gave you a one star rating for it, you were like, thank you, go away. And like, all these people rallied around you, so you actually twisted what could have been, not in your head, what you feared would be a liability into like a major, major strength.

[Jenny Lawson]

Yeah, so that story actually is one of my very favorites. So that came from when. So I own a bookshop. And we got a one star review. And I was really. I was like, oh, my God, one star. What did we do? And I looked at it and it was basically just somebody saying, like, how dare you be progressive? You know, how dare you care about people? And so we ended up like, leaning into it and selling sweatshirts with the one star review across the top. And it sold it out. And we were able to, you know, do employee bonuses with it. And. Yeah, it's just sometimes, sometimes know, you get those nasty reviews and you have to just lean into them. I also, the. One of the things that I write about, because I talk a lot about, because I deal with, and I think everybody deals with it to a certain degree, is rejection, sensitivity of just, you know, some people are really, really. It's hard to deal with. And for me in particular, it's hard to deal with because everything. If somebody says something negative about me, I've already said it to myself a hundred times. And so it's easier to believe that. So a lot of the tricks that I have in here are the tools that I use for reframing, and they are stories that I've been through that have really helped me. So, for example, when my first book came out. So when a book comes out, you want these certain reviews, and they're called trade reviews. And there's. I don't know how many there are. You probably know five or six different places that you want to get a review from. And one of those came out on my first book, and it was. Not only was it negative, but like, they used a couple of words that I had to look up. I was like, oh, so not only am I a bad writer, I'm also stupid. And it really crushed me. And for several weeks, I could not write. I was just. Just destroyed. I was like, I have let down everybody. This is the worst thing ever. And then the book came out and the exact same place wrote another review, and they were like a tour de force. And it was for the exact same book. But the only difference was it was the audiobook, which I was reading out loud. And I was like, this doesn't make any sense. And I talked to my agent and she was like, each one of those reviews, it's just one person. And maybe they're on the worst day ever. And you can't let it get to you, especially because your reviews technically are not any of your business. And what I have taken from that, quite a few different things. But one of the things is I have learned to not look at my reviews. I just avoid them. And instead what I do is I have somebody who I really trust and love go in and take a look at them and let me know they'll pass on the good ones that will encourage me to keep going. And then if there are negative ones that have some validity to them. Because sometimes criticism can be good. Like, sometimes it can hurt. But, you know, we're all learning as we go, right? We all look back and go, oh, that was stupid of me. Or that was problematic, or what was I thinking then? And so she can tell me, like, all right, well, this is something that people have some concerns about. And I can look at it and either go, oh, okay, well, that's legitimate. Or I can go, I still want to be true to what I feel. So, yeah, I think it's good to have people on your side who want the best for you, who aren't going to over protect you, but also aren't going to throw you out into the wolves.

[Zibby Owens]

Very good. Very good advice. How is everything at the bookstore these days?

[Jenny Lawson]

It's really good. It's Texas. And Texas is a tough place to have an independent bookshop, but we have such a great community and it's really kind of found its feet. We have a great online community and people that are parts of the book club and things like that. But it's really found its feet as just a wonderful community place where people come together and to talk and to meet and to just hang out in the bar and I don't know, it makes me so happy. I was in yesterday and a woman came in and her mother had just died the week before, and she was down to help with the funeral and everything. And she said this was my mom's favorite store. And so in memory of her, we went and picked 20 books in the kids section that she really loved and just wrote little. Little sticky notes on them about, you know, this is a gift from my mother. And then just put them up at the. At the front so that people could just have a free book and. And be thankful for, you know, as a stranger who had passed, but who loved stories. And. I don't know, it was kind of wonderful.

[Zibby Owens]

That is so nice. That's so nice. Oh, my gosh. I know there are a lot of tasks involved in owning a bookstore and can seem overwhelming, but the people who come in and the book magic that happens, and from frontless spying to having someone walk out holding a book, I mean, there's nothing better except when they come back and say, like, oh, my gosh, I loved it.

[Jenny Lawson]

Yes.

[Zibby Owens]

Yes.

[Jenny Lawson]

When they're like, oh, no, that was a great pick. What's the next one? Oh, isn't that the best? People don't realize how it is, really. I mean, you know, it is so much harder than you think it's going to be, but it is also so much more rewarding. So, yeah.

[Zibby Owens]

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[Capital One Bank Announcer]

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[Zibby Owens]

Someone came in when I was at the store two days ago and she was Like, I want a business book, but I kind of want, like, a women something or other. And anyway, I suggested they all came to Barney's by Jean, and she's like, oh, that's perfect. But now I found myself thinking the last couple days, like, is she liking it? I don't know. If you're out there and that was you who bought the book, let me know if you liked it.

[Jenny Lawson]

It's really hard. Yeah, I pick. There's two book clubs that I pick for, and then we send off the books. And every single time, I'm like, is this the right book? Is this the right book? And in the end, I have to just say, like, okay, well, what's the book that spoke to me the most that month? And just trust that the majority of the people will go, okay, all right. Yeah, I see where you're going. Okay.

[Zibby Owens]

As a bookstore owner, when you were doing this book, how to Be okay When Nothing Is okay, were there things you used where you're like, you know what? No one's writing about how the world's on fire and I need to write this. Or were you like, I haven't seen a lot of blue covers lately. Like, how much do you feel like you took the bookstore knowledge to inform the book, if at all, and maybe not?

[Jenny Lawson]

Yeah, let's see. Well, I think what I pulled the most from is the knowledge of all the things that I was doing wrong or the things that I learned in the time that I've been there, because I continually screw things up. I think I wrote about this in the book that when I was picking books for the book club, I wanted to find books that published on the beginning of the month so that we could mail them all out.

[Zibby Owens]

It was really 2020.

[Jenny Lawson]

Yes, exactly. Yes. I was like, come on. Every time I would look through, I would be like, all of these books, they all come out on the 20th. Why do books always come out on the 20th? And my team was like, what are you talking about? On the 20? They come out on Tuesday. Is that where. And I was like, no. And I showed them on the spine. And I was like, see, March 20, February 20, and 20 was the year it was not. And, you know, I continually made mistakes like that over and over. And I think it's very easy when you're making dumb mistakes to be like, maybe I'm on the wrong path. Maybe I shouldn't be doing this, but instead I just have to look at it like, okay, well, maybe this is exactly the path I'm supposed to be on. Because I'm continuing to learn. And that's the only way that you have a life that's exciting. Because if I got to the point where I was like, I know everything, I'm done, then how boring would that be?

[Zibby Owens]

You also write about in the book how you took to substack to motivate yourself, kind of a daily accountability partner to yourself by putting out these drawings on a set schedule and coming to the end of it. And then you talk about how along the way you really loved Austin Kleon. Is that how you pronounce? And you were like, I'm just going to write him. I'm just going to email him and say, it's the middle of the night. You're probably never going to hear from me again, but I love what you're doing. And now I'm going to go back to my crazy life and whatever. And then he wrote back, and then you were like, actually, I'm not. I don't think I ever wrote him back. But I got his email. You're so funny. Talk about the substack love between you guys and you and your own accountability partner.

[Jenny Lawson]

So I love to draw. That's one of my. And I think creativity is so important. It's such a gift that you give to yourself and to others. And I always just call them my doodles because then the pressure is off and if I screw something up, it's like, eh, no big deal, whatever. But I found that I was much more likely to give myself time every night to draw, which was such a wonderful therapy for me if I knew that somebody was in some way counting on it. And so I decided I would do this one year thing where I would, every Monday I would post a doodle and write a little thing about it. And I thought, you know, if maybe, you know, five people join the substack, then I'll have five people who were like, okay, I'm waiting for you. I know this is the deadline and I don't even know. I think there's maybe thousands of people who are subscribed to it. Mostly free subscribers. Most of my stuff is just free and just out there because I really just need somebody to go, hey, what are you doing? Why haven't you done this thing? And I don't know why it is that it's not easier for me to just say, but I enjoy this, or, but this is good for me. But for some reason it becomes harder. I think for some reason, especially for women, I think we can feel like, well, but if I'M not getting something done if I'm not doing the laundry or the dishes or working on my deadline or whatever it is that I'm doing, that this isn't valid work. But in fact, it's just the opposite. Because if you're doing the work that gives back to you, then you have the strength to give back to others. Plus, I'm, like, demonstrating for my kid. This is how you take time for yourself. This is how you show up for yourself. This is how you show the world how you deserve to be treated. And all that other stuff can fall by the side. The dishes are going to be there later, all of that. It's okay if we have cereal for dinner three nights in a row. Nobody's gonna die. It's okay.

[Zibby Owens]

Your point about maybe there are, like, five people out there and that's okay. Cause they're gonna be looking for it. I don't know if you ever watched the show the Middle. It was on, like, a while ago. Anyway, I'm sort of obsessed with the show right now. But there's a kid on the show who decides to start a podcast. He's obsessed with fonts. So he's like, I'm gonna write it. I'm gonna do this whole podcast about fonts. And he does it for a week. And then after a week, he decides to stop. And he's like, oof, that was harder than I thought. You know, I have to say Goodbye to my 1 fan. But then at the end of the episode, you find out his one fan was actually Jimmy Kimmel. Who? Like, so the point is, like, you don't know who the one in five. Now, of course, you tell us. There are, like, tens of thousands of people who are following you, but you don't know who the one person is. You don't know whose life you're changing. And by you putting your doodles out there, who knows where they'll go.

[Jenny Lawson]

Exactly. Exactly. Yes.

[Zibby Owens]

And I love by the way that you put that sticker about. Just write it makes you feel better, right? It's going to make me feel better. And sometimes that's enough to get you to write. Not like, you must do this. You must do this many words. I'm going to feel better after I do this.

[Jenny Lawson]

Exactly. It's like a gift I'm giving to future me. So often I'm like, okay, well, what's one healthy thing I can do today? And, you know, I'm not. I wish I was the kind of person who's like, oh, I think I should train for a marathon or I should, you know, stop drinking vodka or whatever it is. But instead, if I can say, what's one healthy decision I can make that tomorrow I'm going to feel like, oh, yeah, I'm glad I did that. Those are never things that I regret. And so it makes it a little bit easier to make slightly healthier decisions. And I. You know, one of the things that. That I do, which I think this. A lot of this stuff is not going to make sense to people who are, I would say, super well adjusted, because my husband looks at this book and he's like, why would you. Why would anybody need to tell you how to. How to say no? How to set boundaries? Just say no. And I'm like, whatever, you're crazy.

[Zibby Owens]

That goes on the heels of just relax and exactly. All those things. Don't worry. Just don't worry about it.

[Jenny Lawson]

Yeah, you're depressed. Just smile. It's okay. Everything's.

[Zibby Owens]

Just be happy.

[Jenny Lawson]

Okay, Exactly.

[Zibby Owens]

Okay. Anyway, sorry I cut you off.

[Jenny Lawson]

Oh, no, that's okay. But now I forgot what I was going to say. Wait, what was I talking about? Can you tell I haven't taken my ADHD meds? I think it's very obvious. It is very obvious.

[Zibby Owens]

We were talking about how you don't regret things that you never regret when you do things that make you feel good, like writing with a little sticky note.

[Jenny Lawson]

Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah, sorry. So what I will often do is. And this is probably somewhat unhealthy, but if I feel like I really am sort of slipping and I'm not doing the things to take care of myself, what I will do is I will think of. I'll pretend that I am somebody I love. And if I'm overwhelmed because I have this deadline that's looming, but I have this executive dysfunction, so I'm super stressed about it. And I just keep thinking about it and thinking about it, but I don't actually, actually do it. I will think, what if my kid was in this position? And I would go, oh, I would so easily open that up and be like, whoop, da, da, da, da. Okay, it's done. It's done. You don't have to worry anymore. And so sometimes I will pretend that the things that I have to do are things that I have to do for somebody else. And it's so much. It's so much better. Or sometimes I will think, okay, so my cat hunter, as tomcat, who I absolutely adore, has saved my life multiple times just by existing. And he's just a Cat, Right? Like, he's just a cat. I put that in quotes. And so sometimes when I start to feel like when depression starts to tell those lies and tell me that I'm not worth it, I think, well, I mean, the only thing that Hunter did today was, like, poop in a box and lay on my chest, and he was just the best thing ever. So maybe I'm. Maybe, like, all bets are off. Maybe you don't have to judge yourself in a particular way. And then I also look at. Am I taking care of myself as much as I would take care of my pet? Because my pet needs fresh water, and they need time to sleep, and they need a comfortable, warm place where they feel relaxed and safe, and they need to be able to play a little bit. And if I'm not giving myself the same things that I would give to a dog, then I need to kind of reassess and be like, well, wait a minute. Because I wouldn't be like, you know what? I think this dog needs to work more. I think this dog needs to get up off her ass. She just looks so lazy. Does she not have work to do? Get up, have a Diet Coke, dog. Let's get some caffeine so that you can get things done. No, I would never do that. So why am I doing it to me?

[Zibby Owens]

That's such a good point. Oh, my gosh. I love that total mindset shift about expectations. And I love that you go on the nextdoor app and tell your neighbors that, like, you just want to snuggle one of their kids. Does anyone have a cat I can snuggle with? Like, I'm just in the mood. And that your neighbors are like, okay, Jenny, sure. And next thing you know, you have somebody, some kitten in your lap that you can just nuzzle into and make yourself feel better, and then they feel better having helped you achieve that. The things you put in are, like, it's not that they're. I mean, not to demean. They're simple, but, like, nobody thinks about doing them. And so that's what's the genius behind them. Like, easy to accomplish and really helpful, but just a little bit different, right?

[Jenny Lawson]

Exactly. Exactly. Just doing something in a strange sort of way can sometimes end up being something that becomes a normal part of your life. And I did, like, when I put it out on the Nextdoor app, I was like, please don't murder me. Also, I'm not a serial killer, but if you happen to have a kitten that you need, because my cats are like these big fat loafs and I love them, but I just really am having a really rough day. And I would love, if somebody has a kitten, if I could just play with it for 30 minutes, that would be great. And yeah, all these people were like, oh, I'm fostering kittens and I'm this. And so not only was I able to do that, but so many people in the comments saw all these people saying, oh, I have this and this. And then they started making connections and saying like, oh, can I play with the kitten for, you know, and then they ended up adopting a whole bunch of these kittens and having these connections in such an amazing, wonderful way. And I think it's very easy for us to forget that most people out there are lovely and kind and want to help you. And so reaching out and asking for help, even in the weirdest possible way, there's almost always going to be somebody who's like, oh, yeah, same, same club. We're the same kind of weird. And that's so affirming and reassuring.

[Zibby Owens]

Amazing. And just to close, you had one quote here at the end and you have quotes scattered throughout this whole book, which are amazing. And like, if, you know, you could have just done a quote book and that would have been helpful. Shannon Hale. I'm writing a first draft and reminding myself that I'm simply shoveling sand into a box so that later I can build castles.

[Jenny Lawson]

Isn't that good?

[Zibby Owens]

I love that so much. I love that so much.

[Jenny Lawson]

Me too. Me too. And it's so true.

[Zibby Owens]

Jenny, thank you so much. I could have talk to you, like for 100 hours. Every single little tidbit that you put in here is useful and fun and interesting to read and people are going to love this book. So thank you for writing it.

[Jenny Lawson]

Oh my gosh, you are the best and you're amazing and I. Same thing. I would love to just sit on here and pick your brain about a million different things, but I know that you're busy and you have lots of things going on, but I'm so glad I got to talk too.

[Zibby Owens]

As to you. Okay, I'll be rooting for you.

[Jenny Lawson]

All right, see you later.

[Zibby Owens]

Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

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[Jenny Lawson]

hi,

[Zibby Owens]

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[Jenny Lawson]

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[Jenny Lawson]

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