Brian Buckbee and Carol Ann Fitzgerald, WE SHOULD ALL BE BIRDS: A Memoir

Summary

Episode Summary: "Brian Buckbee and Carol Ann Fitzgerald, WE SHOULD ALL BE BIRDS: A Memoir"

Release Date: August 7, 2025
Podcast: Totally Booked with Zibby
Host: Zibby Owens
Guests: Brian Buckbee and Carol Ann Fitzgerald
Book Discussed: We Should All Be Birds: A Memoir

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Introduction to the Authors and Their Journey

Zibby Owens warmly welcomes listeners to the episode, introducing Brian Buckbee and Carol Ann Fitzgerald, the co-authors of We Should All Be Birds. Owens provides a brief background on both authors:

• Brian Buckbee resides in Missoula, Montana, co-founded the 406 Writers Workshop, and has had his stories published in esteemed journals such as The Sun, The Georgia Review, and Shenandoah.
• Carol Ann Fitzgerald is a former editor at The Sun and the Oxford American. Her work spans both fiction and nonfiction, featured in publications like Plowshares and The OA Book of Great Music Writing. She currently lives in Chapel Hill.

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The Genesis of We Should All Be Birds

[04:05] Brian Buckbee:
Brian expresses his delight in joining the podcast to discuss their memoir. He outlines the inception of the book, detailing how a simple Facebook post about a special pigeon sparked a profound narrative.

Key Points:

• Initial Inspiration: Brian shared a Facebook post on National Bird Day about a pigeon that had become significant to him. Contrary to his expectations, the post garnered substantial attention, leading to more interactions and dictations despite his severe headaches caused by a medical condition.
• Transition to Writing: Encouraged by responses, Brian continued to dictate stories about his interactions with the pigeon, eventually exhausting himself but realizing the potential for a larger narrative.
• Collaboration with Carol Ann: Entering the collaboration phase after connecting with Carol Ann Fitzgerald, who initially hesitated but was inspired by the charming and poignant stories Brian shared about his pigeon, Two Step.

Notable Quote:
[04:21] Brian Buckbee:
"I put out my hands, and the bird jumped into my hands, and Brian took the bird home. And that is the bird who became Two Step."

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Brian’s Personal Struggles and Connection with Two Step

[06:10] Carol Ann Fitzgerald:
Carol Ann delves deeper into Brian's relationship with Two Step, highlighting the emotional and therapeutic role the pigeon played in his life amidst his health challenges.

Key Points:

• Brian’s Illness: Brian suffers from a condition resembling chronic fatigue syndrome, causing intense pain and exhaustion, significantly impacting his daily life and passions, such as teaching and hockey.
• Emotional Impact: The bond with Two Step provided solace and purpose, allowing Brian to navigate his illness by caring for the injured pigeon.
• Writing as Therapy: Through storytelling, Brian found a meaningful way to cope with his pain, while Carol Ann assisted in structuring and refining his narratives into a cohesive memoir.

Notable Quote:
[09:38] Brian Buckbee:
"I think about what, you know, high school was hard for me. What would it have been like to try to suffer through high school with migraine?"

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Themes of Isolation and Connection

[10:57] Brian Buckbee:
Brian reflects on his feelings of isolation exacerbated by his illness and how Two Step became a beacon of connection in an increasingly isolating world.

Key Points:

• Isolation Due to Illness: Chronic fatigue syndrome not only limited Brian’s physical capabilities but also intensified his sense of loneliness.
• Pigeons as Metaphors: Two Step symbolizes the overlooked and marginalized, drawing parallels to societal neglect of certain groups.
• Human Connection: The memoir underscores the importance of relationships and community support in overcoming personal struggles.

Notable Quote:
[14:46] Brian Buckbee:
"We should all be rats. Coming soon to a bookshelf near you. I think regardless of whether you are or are not a bird person or whatever, I think that the book makes everyone just more aware of the fact that we are sharing the world with creatures who have thoughts and feelings not necessarily our own."

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Collaborative Efforts in Crafting the Memoir

[27:12] Brian Buckbee:
Brian speaks about the collaborative nature of creating the memoir, emphasizing the pivotal role Carol Ann and others played in bringing his story to fruition despite his limitations.

Key Points:

• Carol Ann’s Support: Carol Ann’s dedication in editing and expanding Brian’s dictated stories was crucial in developing the book’s depth and narrative flow.
• Publishing Team: The support from their agent, Farley Chase, and the Tin House team facilitated the seamless collaboration necessary given Brian’s health challenges.
• Shared Vision: The authors highlight how their partnership transcended traditional author-editor relationships, fostering a mutual respect and shared commitment to the memoir’s success.

Notable Quote:
[29:28] Brian Buckbee:
"And so it's been just really great to be able to be this collaborative process, and I feel like the reader is part of it. They're in my head. I talk to them all the time."

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Impact and Desired Outcomes of the Memoir

[22:39] Brian Buckbee:
Brian and Carol Ann discuss their aspirations for the memoir, aiming to provide comfort, inspiration, and a deeper understanding of personal struggles through their narrative.

Key Points:

• Emotional Resonance: The memoir is intended to make readers feel less alone in their experiences, whether dealing with physical pain, emotional turmoil, or loneliness.
• Awareness and Empathy: By sharing his story, Brian hopes to increase awareness about chronic illnesses and the importance of empathy towards both humans and animals.
• Inspiration and Hope: Carol Ann emphasizes the uplifting aspects of the book, portraying how Brian’s relationship with Two Step brought joy and meaning even in difficult times.

Notable Quote:
[24:10] Carol Ann Fitzgerald:
"I just felt like people around the world, anybody who reads this will benefit from this feeling like they're not completely alone and isolated in whatever they're going through, their grief, their physical pain, their loneliness."

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Reflecting on Personal Growth and Lessons Learned

[27:31] Brian Buckbee:
Both authors reflect on the personal growth derived from the memoir writing process, highlighting themes of letting go, unconditional love, and the interconnectedness of all living beings.

Key Points:

• Letting Go: Brian discusses the emotional difficulty of releasing Two Step back into the wild, symbolizing broader themes of loss and acceptance.
• Unconditional Love: The bond between Brian and Two Step serves as a testament to the capacity for love and care, even towards creatures that society may undervalue.
• Interconnectedness: The memoir illustrates how caring for another being can lead to greater self-awareness and understanding of one’s place in the world.

Notable Quote:
[29:49] Carol Ann Fitzgerald:
"But really, you don't have to be a pigeon person to respond to this Two Step character. Brian would always say, you know, who wants to read a whole book that's just about one character? And I was like, it's not, you know, he was talking about himself and I was like, no, Two Step is like the main character. So there's two characters."

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Concluding Thoughts and Final Reflections

[31:23] Brian Buckbee:
Zibby Owens commends the authors for their vulnerability and the heartfelt nature of their storytelling, emphasizing the memoir’s ability to resonate on multiple emotional levels.

Key Points:

• Emotional Depth: The memoir successfully conveys the complexities of dealing with chronic illness, the solace found in unexpected friendships, and the universal struggle with isolation.
• Authentic Storytelling: Brian’s openness about his fears, doubts, and inner life adds authenticity and relatability to the narrative.
• Collaborative Success: The seamless collaboration between Brian and Carol Ann serves as an inspiring example of overcoming personal limitations through collective effort and mutual support.

Notable Quote:
[31:44] Brian Buckbee:
"And so it's been just really great to be able to be this collaborative process, and I feel like the reader is part of it. They're in my head. I talk to them all the time."

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Key Takeaways

• Resilience through Connection: We Should All Be Birds underscores the importance of connections—both human and non-human—in navigating personal hardships.
• Visibility of the Overlooked: The memoir brings attention to chronic illnesses and the often-overlooked suffering of marginalized communities, symbolized through Brian’s relationship with Two Step.
• Power of Storytelling: Through Brian’s dictated narratives and Carol Ann’s editorial prowess, the memoir exemplifies how storytelling can serve as a therapeutic outlet and a means to foster empathy and understanding.

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For more information about Brian Buckbee and Carol Ann Fitzgerald’s memoir, visit zibbymedia.com or follow Zibby Owens on Instagram at @zibbyowens.

Transcript

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[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

Hi.

[Zibby Owens]

This is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books in my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibyoans Brian Buckbee and Carol Ann Fitzgerald are the authors of We Should All Be Birds and memoir. Brian Buckbee lives in Missoula, Montana. He is co founder of the 406 Writers Workshop. His stories have appeared in the sun, the Georgia Review, the Mid American Review, Shenandoah, the Southern Review, and elsewhere. Carol Ann Fitzgerald is a former editor at the sun and the Oxford American. Her fiction and nonfiction have been published in Plowshares, the Oxford American, the Sun, the OA Book of Great Music Writing, and elsewhere. She lives in Chapel Hill.

[Brian Buckbee]

Welcome Brian and Carol. I'm so delighted to have you both on to discuss We Should All Be a Memoir. Thanks for coming on.

Thank you for having us.

So explain how the two of you met up and how this book came to be, please.

Okay, so I think there's two different periods here which I think of as BCA and aca. That's before Carol Anne and after Carol Anne. So before Carol Ann, I was simply putting up a post on Facebook and I really never use social media, but I found this pigeon and this pigeon had been very become very special to me. So on National Bird Day a few years ago, I put one post on Facebook with a link to a couple charities and a short description of why I was asking people to donate to charities. But the thing is, people who read the post wrote me back and said, well, I'd like to hear some more about this. So and when I say write, I actually wasn't writing because I've had a medical condition and I my headache is so bad I really can't look at screens. So I was dictating the posts. So I put it more the second day. And people I had heard from in since, like, high school even were saying, gosh, I want to hear more about this. And I thought people didn't read more than a sentence or two on Facebook, but they were reading it. And so I kept dictating these chunks, one chunk at a time, until I felt like I kind of got to an end, and I was completely, totally exhausted. So then these people who I call the Facebook people, and they are so special to me because I wouldn't have done it without them. When I talked in my head and told the story, I talked directly to them. They said, you should publish this thing. And then we move into the ACA period after Carolyn and Carol Ann. You can probably take it from there, right?

[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

Okay. So we overlapped. Brian and I overlapped a little bit in the publishing world in the past. And he reached out to me and said, hey, I've got some posts on Facebook. You know, you want to read them? And I was like, facebook writing? Not sure about that. And I started reading these Facebook posts, and basically they were about Brian encountering a pigeon who. Basically, he was following Brian around for three nights in a row. The pigeon suddenly appeared in Brian's vicinity, was looking at Brian like he wanted something from Brian. Finally, Brian put out his hands, and the bird jumped into his hands, and Brian took the bird home. And that is the bird who became Two Step. Brian was writing about Two Step, and it was so charming and so funny. He was taking walks around the block, and Two Step, who had an injured foot, would be hopping around down the block, all the way around the block with Brian. So they're like two buddies. They'd go down to the Orange street bridge, which is in Missoula. I don't know Missoula, but I know it now from the book. And on Two Step would be on Brian's head, and people would come up and say hi. And I mean. And then Brian taught Two Step how to fly because Two Step was injured. And so Brian, despite his condition, which makes him extremely weak, would take Two Step out to the softball fields, and he'd run. So that Two Step would have to, like, hop and sort of fly after him. And finally, you know, Two Step started flying. And it was this incredible moment. And Brian wrote about it just so beautifully. It was so cinematic, you know? Know, I was like, oh, my gosh, I need to know more. I think Brian had in mind publishing an essay, which, you know, I was happy to help him publish an essay, but I Was like, I have so many questions. What is this illness you have? Like, you never talk about that in these posts. You know, he alludes to it, this woman you love, like, what? And there was clearly so much more to the story, and I wanted to know the answer. So just for the sake of satisfying my curiosity, I was like, know, Brian, let's try to write a book. Or. Or, no, Brian, why don't you write a book? And he's like, I can't write a book. And I was like, of course you can. He's like, I can't do it. I'm physically incapable of doing this much dictation of sustaining a story in my head, blah, blah, blah. He's like, if you. If you agree to. To do everything except for the dictating, we can do the book. And I was like, I mean, I wanted to read the book so bad. I was like, yes, I had no idea what I was getting into, but it was just complete joy. And the only other thing I want to say is that what really I noticed about the Facebook post is that here's Brian, who's very sick. Clearly I didn't know with what, but he was so funny. I mean, these stories about the bird and the. I mean, it's just hilarious. And that's something that I don't know if everybody gets from the book, but for me, I laugh a lot when I read the book.

[Brian Buckbee]

So what a story. First of all, Brian, when you wrote let's talk about the illness first, so you write about it and you said it's sort of like chronic fatigue syndrome in a way, that you get exhausted from doing very little, and that it's excruciating to look at the light. And now here we are on zoom, and I'm feeling incredibly guilty right now and being like, oh, my gosh, this is. I'm like, torturing this poor man who's been through so much. But you said, you know, if people like that, you had to sort of come to terms with the fact that you are ill and you're not going to live necessarily the life that you thought maybe you were going to live. Like, can you just talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, I think I was a teacher. I loved teaching. I loved my students. And I played hockey. I was a hockey player, loved hockey. And I had this partner who's very dear to me. She's the one in the book, Elle. Referred to as Elle in the book. And I was in Kuala Lumpur one day and found myself in the hospital because I was having Very odd symptoms. And since then I've had a headache and kind of intense body pain that increases when I do activity. And this sounds kind of like or is what is called the chronic fatigue syndrome. And it pretty much is making my life. I kind of think a lot about those old horror movies. I don't know if you've seen them where the walls like literally close in on people. That's kind of what I feel like, that the world just gets smaller and smaller and smaller because there's less and less and less I can do. And that's why this pigeon was so important to me, because it was. That's. That's what I did with my life, was take care of two step.

Oh my gosh. Well, the way you wrote about it, the monster, so to speak, and how it felt, waking up to so much pain and just like longing for the night where you could go back to sleep. I mean, that was really, you know, really emotional treat.

So I had never had really headache problems before, except maybe hangovers and stuff. When I was younger, I never had a migraine. And then I got a migraine and I don't know, Zibby, have I had one? You had migraine?

I just had one. Yeah, I just had one when I was pregnant. They said it was like related to the pregnancy or something. Yeah.

Oh, well, I'm sorry for that. It seems like migraine happens a lot with people. It comes on, the onset is hormonal. And so it's a lot of like high school age girls start getting migraine problems. And for me, when I got this, this headache that became intractable. You know, I've had it for five years straight. I began thinking about these people I went to high school with. And most migraine sufferers are girls. The proportion is like three or four to one. The same as it is with me. Cfs my illness. And I think about what, how, you know, high school was hard for me. What would it have been like to try to suffer through high school with migraine? And I'm just kind of awestruck that these people did it. And I'm embarrassed because I had no idea. I had no idea that these people were kind of suffering around me and I paid no attention to them. And so this headache that I've gotten has made me kind of see those people. And it also kind of made me see pigeons, which are also kind of similarly neglected.

And interestingly, about pigeons, you point out early on that the refuge center wouldn't take the pigeon, whereas they would have taken lots of Other different types of birds based on its sort of history and captivity and how it's, you know, ended up here and how pigeons get the short end of the stick and aren't as revered necessarily early as other. As other birds because for a while people just wanted to eat them.

Yeah. Or sacrifice them.

Or sacrifice them.

Or show them off for display. I think, Carol Ann, probably when I contacted you, the first question I probably asked you was, are you a pigeon person or not?

[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

Perhaps I don't remember that. But the thing was, I was always a bird person. I had parakeets when I was little. And you and I had a lot of similarities with our relationships with our moms and our connection to animals through our moms. So I was not a pigeon person, though. But I mean, you don't have to be a pigeon person to respond to this Two Step character. Brian would always say, you know, who wants to read a whole book that's just about one character? And I was like, it's not, you know, he was talking about himself and I was like, no, Two Step is like the main character. So there's two characters. But anyway, I mean, this bird is very funny, very charming, very loving. Just really, I don't know, I had never read a story about a bird that touched me so deeply. Yeah. So I do now. I, like, love pigeons, of course, and I see now how maligned they are. I mean, there's some movie where they say the character calls pigeons like rat with wings or something. You know, I wasn't really sensitive to all that until meeting Brian and learning about, you know, pigeons really are not beloved and, and they're poisoned and, you know, towns and cities even poison them to get rid of them. And it's, you know, it's just an interesting issue to me, so. And it's good to open your eyes up to. To these maligned things around us that, you know, you just like. Even rats. I mean, why do rats get such a bad rap? You know?

[Brian Buckbee]

But anyway, yeah, that can be your next book. We should all be rats. We'll see. You could compare them, see how they do relative to each other.

We should all be rats.

We should all be rats. Coming soon to a bookshelf near you. I think regardless of whether you are or are not a bird person or whatever, I think that the book makes everyone just more aware of the fact that we are sharing the world with creatures who have thoughts and feelings not necessarily our own. But if you haven't fallen in love with an animal, like now's the time with the book. I mean, I feel like so many people have dogs. Like I have my dog behind me and you know, I'm like convince. My dog is human, my cat is.

[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

My cats are human.

[Brian Buckbee]

Right?

Yeah. But really, if you ascribe that much meaning and emotion and all of it to every creature, it's almost like hard to live with ourselves knowing what happens in society. So I think that people almost like block it out in the way people kind of like block out death so they can get out of bed every morning. You know, I think they just don't necessarily want to leave room for that. I don't know. What do you think about it?

Yeah, I think it's. It is kind of crushing. You know, my parents, when I was little, made me watch the movie Old Yeller, like a lot of our parents did.

Me too.

And like, I, I still am mad at them for this, even though it was supposedly good for me. Those things are hard. And for me, when I was so sick and my life had changed and at that point had so much pain, I didn't. I'd be around for all that long. It was just not sustainable. These little creatures who were so vulnerable and the little two step hopping along next to me on the street, it was just heartbreaking. And it was so hard to take care of them and just keep them alive because it wasn't just two step, because I had two step. But then he found a partner and I had to kind of feed her. And then a flock started coming and then they started coming in the house. And soon I had like 12 birds flying around my house and they were having babies in the house, which were adorable, but it was hard to watch, to worry. And I think that's, that's part of our culture is we were really sort of scared of, of exposing ourselves to sickness and pain like that.

Have you had like second opinions, like third opinions of your medical diagnosis? Have you? Like, I'm sure you have. I just, I feel like I want to try to help, give you some ways, you know, like maybe there's a misdiagnosis or because the girls in high school, having had a girl in high school with migraines, like there are medicines and you take the pill and the migraines stop. Like the fact that your migraines don't stop to respond to medication is, you know.

Well, I think thank you for caring and trying to help. That's wonderful. My headache, even though I still have the headache, it's, you know, like six years old now or something, it's much less intense than it was when I was writing the book and prior to that. And that, I think, is because of some of the medications that I've taken. But for these chronic fatigue syndrome things, there's not really anything that they can do about that. And a lot of people, a lot of people in the medical profession don't want to even try to do anything about it because, like, for instance, when I was in the hospital in Kuala Lumpur, we had been there for like six days, and I did not think I could physically make it back to the States. I had so much pain. And one day, my doctor, and this is a really good facility, my doctor brings in an associate of his and says, hey, look, I want you to meet this other doctor. I think she can help you. I'm like, wonderful. And he says, he introduces me to her, and she's a psychiatrist. And so this is a big story with chronic fatigue syndrome is that we are not believed. And again, it's this long history, especially with. Because, as I said, most of the sufferers of this illness are women. And so when it started, started kind of popping in the 80s 90s, they weren't believed. It was kind of written off as hysteria or depression. And it's still that way even after Covid and people sort of suspecting that what long Covid is kind of overlaps a lot with what chronic fatigue syndrome is.

Interesting.

[Zibby Owens]

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[Brian Buckbee]

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[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

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[Brian Buckbee]

So in putting the book out there, what are both of you hoping that people feel, think, do like, what is the ultimate goal for you?

Carol Ann maybe you want to answer that one.

[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

I mean I've just always felt from the moment I read the post the post on Facebook that Brian's story was brought me inspiration during tough times to Keep going to laugh, to find beauty in the midst of pain. I don't. I myself am lucky to have not had physical pain. But obviously, you know, we all suffer emotional pain at various points. I just felt like people around the world, anybody who reads this will benefit from this feeling like they're not completely alone and isolated in whatever they're going through, their grief, their physical pain, their loneliness. I want people to feel uplifted by it. And I don't think everybody will feel that. I mean, some people will just feel like, oh, this is a book about sickness. And it never really was a book about sickness. It's really a book about a bird and how a bird, like, kept Brian going. I mean, Brian had some very dark thoughts along the way, and he. I mean, he wrote very beautifully about those dark thoughts. Very bravely, I thought. And so I don't. But I'm not saying every reader is going to feel like, oh, my gosh, this is like a hopeful book. But I know there are people out there who will respond like that and feel comforted.

[Brian Buckbee]

Well, it's all about sometimes how specific you are. I feel like the more granular you get in something about your own life, the more people see themselves in it or get something out of it. And this particular interaction over a short period of time, relatively, can do just that. Like, what does it say about our relationship to others and what we need to keep going? And human connection especially contrasted with the pandemic where, you know, you were starved for company, Brian, and, like, everybody, and no conversations even. And then suddenly you get a new type of friend. And, I don't know.

Well, one of the great things about. About having an illness that isolates you like this and mine coincided with the start of the pandemic. So there was a ton of isolation. There was all this kind of weirdness going on. I'd already been isolated, and so people who are now isolating because of COVID were calling me for, like, advice on how to be an isolated person. But it turns out when you. You. When you need help, which I did, people come to help you. And I grew up in a really small family. We were very isolated. My father kind of retreated from the world. He kind of became a hermit. And all these people, including the Facebook people, including you today, Zibby, have kind of entered my life and have. And Carol Ann especially, have participated in this collaboration of making this thing that only is so collaborative because I have so many limitations. The people at Tin House had to do so much because I have limitations. Our agent and our agent's name, by the way, is Farley Chase, which is, like, the best agent name, I think, ever in the history of the world. He had to do so much because of my limitations. And Carol Ann, I mean, it was just heroic what she did. And so it's. For me, it's been just really great to be able to be this collaborative process, and I feel like the reader is part of it. They're in my head. I talk to them all the time. So, yeah.

And do you find, like, can you listen to audiobooks? Like, do you get relief in the same way from other people's stories as other people are getting from yours?

Yeah. I don't know, Zibby, you probably have had a lot of people talk to you about audiobooks over the years. For me, it's just not the same as reading. I do listen to them, and I use Speechify now. Do you know Speechify?

Yep. My husband uses it.

So Speechify has a bunch of different voices who can read to you. And I've chosen Gwyneth Paltrow. So Gwyneth Paltrow reads me everything. So the newspaper, if there's news going on in the Middle East, Gwyneth Paltrow is reading it. If it's a book I'm listening to on audio. Gwyneth Paltrow is reading it, though. I do listen to things on audio, but I haven't really read a book, including parts of my own book, since I get sick.

Well, yeah, Gwyneth Paltrow. I mean, I hope my husband's not listening to Gwyneth Paltrow all day, every day. I guess I should ask him who he uses in Speechify. He uses it to read scripts and all these characters. And anyway, my goodness. Okay, so what is the most important thing that Two Step taught you? Both of you?

Yeah, I mean, I feel like for me, it is being the invisible. That was. Pigeons are all around us. And I lived in Chicago for a long time. I was always around pigeons. And Zibi.

I think I'm in New York.

Yes, you're in New York.

Yeah.

Pigeons are everywhere. And people like, oh, pigeons. And a lot of people hate pigeons. They despise them. But I was around pigeons all the time in Chicago, and I never saw them. And really sort of the first pigeon I ever really saw was Two Steps. And it was such a gift because he made the invisible world visible. And a big part of that invisible world for me were these people, people who suffer. And there's just a lot more of them than I realized, and it was such a gift that he gave me. And still, Carol Ann, you probably maybe have something different.

[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

Well, I mean, you know, I love Two Step. The book is about Two Step for me. But really, Brian, you know, Two Step is also about you and all the love you poured into that relationship and respect for his. His wildness, you know, and, you know, you took him in, you rescued him, he was wounded, you healed him, he taught him to fly. You had some funny incidents with him. He got hit by a car and all this stuff. But then you had to release him to the wild, and you definitely didn't want to do that because he was, like, your best friend. He was your only family member at that point, but you released him to the wild. And that's really the arc of the book, which is having to let go of something that you love so much just to honor who they are, what they are. So Two Step, for me is also about Brian and the love that Brian has that I find so inspiring, compelling. It makes me want to be a better person to. To the earth, to the creatures, to other humans. You know, it's just. It's just good. It just. It pushed all the right buttons for me. I'm not saying it's going to do that for everybody, but for me, you.

[Brian Buckbee]

See how Carol Ann is. Zibby. This is what Carol Ann was doing while I was, like, exhausted. I was like, there's no way I can send you more. And she was so aware of what the book needed. She said, I need another chunk about so and so and so I'd send her another chunk. And she was just so positive and so encouraging, with so much flattery and so sweet, that somehow she carried me over the finish line.

[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

But you also were carrying me over a different sort of finish line. So it definitely went both ways, this relationship.

[Zibby Owens]

Aw.

[Brian Buckbee]

Yeah. Well, I mean, just this dynamic alone is another wonderful thing that seems to have come from this. From this experience.

[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

We've never met. What. In fact, we didn't even see each other on Zoom until we met with our agent.

[Brian Buckbee]

I think that's right.

Carol Ann, I think you need to get on a plane and go meet Brian.

[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

Well, I'm going out for the launch.

[Brian Buckbee]

Okay, good. All right. There you go. Wow. Well, I feel like, as I contend with empty nesting out there somewhere, for me, with my four kids, which is back of my head all the time, and for so many parents, like, this particular story of taking flight and someone you love sort of leaving the nest and all of that, and the emotions of caring for something and how that just elevates all the experiences you have with that creature. This hits home in ways that are not only about birds. This is not about pigeons. To me, the story is so much bigger, but it's told through this sort of story, allegory, if you will. So anyway, I appreciate it very much and I appreciate your writing, Brian, and how open you were about your health and your relationships and your inner life and your fears and doubts. And it was a very vulnerable piece of writing and very well done. So congratulations to both of you.

Thank you for saying that.

[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

Thank you so much, Zivi. It's been really great talking to you.

[Brian Buckbee]

You too. Congratulations. And I still think, Brian, you should get some more opinions because you never know what's coming down the pike. You just don't know about new treatments.

[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

And that was my dream ending. Brian was going to meet the right doctor and all this is going to be figured out.

[Brian Buckbee]

Yeah.

Just saying.

Okay, thank you, Zibby. I'm working on it.

Okay. All right. All right. Thank you both.

[Carol Ann Fitzgerald]

Okay, bye guys.

[Brian Buckbee]

Bye.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby formerly Moms don't have Time to read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

[Brian Buckbee]

Foreign.

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