Totally Booked with Zibby

Episode: Cas Holman, PLAYFUL: How Play Shifts Our Thinking, Inspires Connection, and Sparks Creativity
Host: Zibby Owens
Guest: Cas Holman
Date: October 23, 2025

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Zibby Owens interviews Cas Holman, designer, educator, and advocate for play, about her new book PLAYFUL: How Play Shifts Our Thinking, Inspires Connection, and Sparks Creativity. The conversation explores the transformative power of play in adulthood, Cas’s personal and professional journey, and the principles adults need to reclaim a playful mindset. Together, they highlight how play fosters creativity, genuine connection, and resilience—not just in children, but vital for adults’ wellbeing and innovation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cas Holman’s Playful Philosophy and Professional Journey

• Background: Cas is known for her work designing toys and play spaces (like Rigamajig and projects with Liberty Science Center) and as a professor at RISD. Though her early work focused on children, she realized the same play principles deeply matter for adults.
• Book’s Motivation: PLAYFUL is aimed at adults, drawing on conversations with co-author Lydia Denworth and Cas’s long experience as both designer and educator.
• Career Path: Cas reflects on navigating adulthood unconventionally, seeking out adventure and meaningful work outside society's prescribed boxes.
  • Quote: “I adventured my way into what I do now. And in a way, all of it, I think, informed how I do what I do.” (07:56)
  • Quote: “We’re encouraged to follow our passion… Except that following your passion doesn’t always line up with following the rules and norms of adulthood.” (07:03)

2. The Challenge—and Necessity—of Adult Play

• Why Adults Need to Play: Cas outlines that play is not childish, but a critical tool for adults to connect authentically, spark creativity, and build resilience.
• Barriers to Adult Play:
  • Social norms teach us to suppress playful urges out of fear of judgment and a need for acceptance.
  • Many adults use children as a “permission slip” for play, but rarely reclaim it for themselves alone.
• Play as Identity & Connection:
  • After being featured on Netflix’s Abstract, Cas heard from many adults and parents who resonated with her disregard for “adult rules” and struggled to fit in.
  • Play, she says, allows us to touch our authentic selves—sometimes in opposition to community expectations—leading to both liberation and vulnerability.
  • Quote: “Play taps into our authentic selves, but those selves don’t always align with the community we find ourselves in.” (11:39)

3. Three Key Principles for Adult Play (17:12)

Cas distills the “conditions” necessary for adults to reclaim playful living:

A. Release Judgment

• The “adult voice” tells us to avoid silliness or risk embarrassment; playful impulses are often stifled for fear of being judged.
• The judgment often starts in adolescence but can be unlearned.
  • Quote: “It’s not that we forget to play or stop needing to play. I think it’s that we learn to not play.” (18:08)

B. Embrace Possibility

• Pursue curiosity without fixating on outcomes.
• Stay open to new experiences and discoveries, which sparks creativity and resilience.

C. Reframe Success

• Move from a fixed notion of success (being good, getting it “right”) to valuing bravery, novelty, and learning—even through failure.
  • Quote: “If success is that we grow, we’re much more likely to grow when we try new things that may or may not work out or we may or may not be good at.” (19:59)

4. Play Is Not Just for Kids—Or with Kids (20:32)

• The Role of Children: Many adults feel “allowed” to play when with children, but true adult play involves embracing vulnerability and giving each other permission—e.g., playful outings with friends in non-judgmental settings.
  • Quote: "If you and your friends from high school...all say, let's do this, you are giving each other permission." (21:22)
• Forms of Adult Play: Not all play is physical—imagination, creative language, reading, observing, or even rearranging furniture are valid modes of play.
  • Quote: “Poetry is like a playful language…even meditation in certain ways can be quite playful.” (24:23)

5. Playful Environments and Social Contracts (21:22; 29:04)

• Social cues and environments (like Color Factory, art studios, or dance clubs) can lower barriers, but the real shift is internal.
• Cas distinguishes between “generative” play (creating, discovering) and “consumptive” play (being entertained, as in theme parks)—encourages adults to be participants, not just consumers.

6. Cas’s Current Projects and Vision for Grown-Up Play (25:40)

• Cas is working on new toy and play space designs, but sees the bigger need as a shift in mindset, not more products.
  • Quote: “I really think it’s like, the work is with each other and with ourselves.” (26:35)
• She leads adult play workshops, “adult summer camps,” and experiments with intergenerational play, breaking down hierarchies between children and elders.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[P]lay taps into our authentic selves, but those selves don’t always align with the community we find ourselves in.” — Cas Holman (11:39)
• “The child is the permission to play, right? … But if you and your friends from high school are all on the same page…you are giving each other permission.” — Cas Holman (21:22)
• "I don’t think adults need more toys or the perfect space…it’s much more of a mind shift.” — Cas Holman (25:46)
• “[T]he work is with each other and with ourselves.” — Cas Holman (26:35)
• “Playing is a vulnerable state. And…adults tend to be a little bit afraid of failure for good reason. We’ve had a lot of years of experiencing things that hurt.” — Cas Holman (27:22)

Timestamps for Core Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 03:08 | Cas’s introduction, book background, and her discovery of adult play needs | | 07:03 | Reading of Cas's reflections on career path—“following your passion” and societal expectations | | 11:39 | Impact of Netflix series and play as self-actualization amidst community challenges | | 17:12 | The three principles for adults to reclaim play: Release Judgment, Embrace Possibility, Reframe Success | | 21:22 | How adults give themselves (and each other) permission to play—even without kids present | | 24:23 | Multiple forms of adult play—not just physical, but intellectual and creative | | 25:40 | Cas’s current and future projects in adult play, and her shift in focus from products to mindsets | | 29:04 | Generative vs. consumptive play; why self-initiated play is more sustainable and meaningful for adults |

Tone & Takeaways

The episode is a thoughtful yet playful journey, punctuated by laughter, personal anecdotes, and practical wisdom. Cas and Zibby keep the conversation warm and inviting, breaking down high-minded concepts of creativity and wellbeing into accessible actions for everyday life. Listeners are encouraged to see play as essential, not frivolous, and to take small but brave steps—whether alone or collectively—toward more joyful, authentic, and resilient living.

Final Message

Cas Holman’s message is clear: Play does not belong just to children. It is a creative, necessary—and reclaimable—aspect of adult life that shapes how we think, connect, and thrive. Release judgment, embrace curiosity, and redefine what it means to “succeed”—and together, we can bring more play, and more joy, into our grown-up lives.