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Hey everyone, I'm Michele Norris, here to welcome you to your Mama's kitchen.
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Every Tuesday, we bring you new stories from the childhood kitchens of fun.
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Guests like Stephen Colbert, John Legend, Ina Garten, Big Frieda, Roy Wood. So many more people.
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I'll talk to guests who are artists.
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Actors, chefs, musicians and more about how.
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The food and the culinary traditions of.
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Their youth shape their lives in interesting.
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And sometimes surprising ways. It's delicious.
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Make sure to listen wherever you get your podcasts. Today's episode is sponsored by gab. The youth mental health crisis is all over the news and we know social media is driving it. This shocked me. The US Surgeon General warns that kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to have depression and anxiety, which is with four kids of my own. We are constantly debating when is the right age to give some of our kids a phone? How do we monitor the phone usage for others? It is non stop, but now there's a solution. Here's the good news. A company called Gab has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech in Steps. Tech in Steps works by providing kids safe phones and watches tailored to every age, offering the right device at the right time. From GPS tracking enabled watches for young kids to increased features and parent enabled apps on the phones for tweens and teens. Each device grows with your child. Bottom line, you don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Get them Gab, which keeps them socially connected safely. I can't recommend Gab enough. Use our code to get the best deal on something that will make parenting easier and give you peace of mind. Visit gab.com that's g-a b b.com totallybooked and use code totallybooked for a very special offer. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibbeowensk Christine Pride is back on the podcast this time to talk about all the Men I've Loved A Novel. Christine Pride is a writer, editor, and longtime publishing veteran. She has held editorial posts at many different trade imprints, including Doubleday, Broadway Crown, Hyperion, and Simon and Schuster. As an editor, Christine has published a range of books with a special emphasis on inspirational stories and memoirs, including numerous New York Times bestsellers. As a freelance editorial consultant, she does select editing and proposal content development as well as teaching and coaching, and pens a regular column, Race Matters for Cup of Joe. She lives in New York City Hi Christine, thanks for coming back on my show to talk about all the Men I've Loved again. A Novel. Congratulations.
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Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here to chat.
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Solo Novel I know you have been here with Joe Piazza before and now you are on your own. How does it feel?
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A
It feels good. It feels so different. It feels like different evolutions, I guess, or different steps of becoming a writer. But it's different in its own ways. And I still miss Jo. Right. And we're working on another book together, so it's kind of like I have the best of both worlds. But it was fun to try to tackle this solo. It felt like a good next step.
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B
Amazing. Well, this is very fun and I feel like you actually were with friends with the book because there was so much friendship here. So I feel like even though you didn't write it with a girlfriend or anything, like, I still got that, but I feel like putting it down. I feel like I've just spent a lot of time with friends, so.
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A
Well, that's because the group chat did help a lot with the book. There was a lot of dropping in the group chat as I was writing, like Guy, especially with the time frame because the book is set in the early aughts and so a lot of it was like, wait a minute, did we have this then? Did we dance to this? Then what? You know, it's like an historical novel in that way. You have to go back to your.
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B
Youth, but also your funny commentary on everything you're like, why do we even call it the odds? Like, what the heck? Like, why are we so that was also amazing. Why don't you talk a little bit about what the book's about?
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A
Sure. So it's about a woman named Cora, and she dates the same two men in her 20s and then reunites with them and dates the same two men in her 40s. And so in both of those time periods in her life. Right. She obviously has different things going on, but she, you know, sort of really emotionally torn between these two men. And so how she, you know, has to make a decision to follow her heart, both at 20 and 40, I don't know.
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I was Team Lincoln, I have to say.
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A
All along.
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B
I was like, okay, come on, come on. You have in Cora walks into a bar for October 2021. Because all the chapters are, Cora does this, Cora does that, which I loved, by the way. You say the first thing Nisha demanded to know was, what's it like having sex with the someone after two decades? And then you go, our minds want to know. Yeah, exactly. And you go into everything from, well, I'll let the reader use their imagination, but that's part of the girlfriend nature of the book is you tell everybody, as open as they would be to a best friend, about everything. So I feel like I got to know Cora so well. Talk a little bit about how you crafted these two guys. And were you not Dame Lincoln? I don't know. How do you feel about the whole thing? Yeah.
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A
So it's interesting because this really is based on, you know, it's ripped from the headlines of my own life, and that I did date the same two men in my 20s and 40s. But I stress it's very much a novel because, you know, I really then created these characters whole cloth. Right. Especially because I didn't want it to skew memoir at all. And so that really made me have to make Cora so different from me. So where I'm, like, super outgoing, core's a little more reserved, et cetera. But that meant that she would obviously not be attracted or vibing. Right. With the same two guys that might. I might have. And so, you know, I really did have to dig deep to figure out, you know, sort of who Korra. And that's at the heart of the book. Right. Like, who would be right for someone like Korra, which is what she's also trying to discover for herself. But I also wanted to make them both obviously, like, viable, alluring, you know, great quality guys, and each in their own distinctive ways. Because it was really important. You know, Cora was truly torn. And I hope that people are like you. Like, some people are Team Lincoln, some people are Team Aaron, but that they're both guys that you want to root for in the end.
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B
Yes, I was. I'm. I was really just rooting for her happiness, and whatever she wanted would be great. And I'm glad, you know, she made whatever choice she made for her, which we will not discuss, but, you know, as long as she's happy, like, that's what everybody wants, right? In addition to navigating relationships, her relationship with her father is a huge cornerstone of this. And you have a scene in the middle. I don't know if I can talk about or not, but something goes wrong with her dad. And that part, for me, was so emotional and so vivid. What happened over those few days and her feelings before, after ongoing about it. Talk a little bit about that and how you decided, because she doesn't have her. You know, she's been raised by a single dad, and they are still super, super close.
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A
So the single dad thing was important to me because we don't actually see that very often, right. Where, you know, it's just really been Cora and her dad as, like, a little bubble. And so they are so close. And though, you know, I had two parents, I was very close to my father. And, you know, a lot of. I drew from a lot of that to create this relationship between Cora and her dad. And it was really important for me to do that because I really do think that who, you know, end up with as heterosexual partners, you know, a woman attracted to a man is so influenced by our early relationships and is so influenced by the relationships that we have with our fathers, for better or worse. And so I felt like the reader really needed to see that and feel that and feel their connection and, you know, sort of their dependence on each other and particularly Cora's dependence on, you know, her father. And what happens if that story threatened, you know, And a core, you know, coursing through the book is this theme of what happens when we lose those we love. Right. Or the threat of that, be it a, you know, a. A family member, a friend, a friendship in jeopardy, or a romantic partner, you know, sort of how do we hold on and how do we let go? And Cora's relationship with her father was, I thought, a tender and heartfelt way to show that angle. So I'm glad that it's shining through for people, especially since, you know, I'm so close to. To my own father, who Actually died six months ago. I know. So it's been really bittersweet to be, you know, on this journey now. He's been such a huge supporter, obviously, of my career, and I got to show him that the book is dedicated to him before he passed away last summer. And so that's just meant a lot to me. Right. To bring this relationship alive on the page that, like I said, is just so much informed by my close relationship with him. So I'm very grateful that it's sort of memorialized forever in the pages of a book.
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B
Oh, I'm really sorry, but that was hard, having to talk about it and, like, face it over and over and maybe you're not in the mood to talk about it and.
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A
Yeah, it is hard. You know, it's getting easier, which is good. I went through a phase where it was, like, almost impossible, or I, you know, just sort of burst out into tears. And I think anybody who's experienced loss knows, Right. That you go through all these waves now. I'm actually really grateful to get to the point where I can talk about it and talk about him in a way that doesn't immediately result in tears, but is also nice. Right. Like, I feel good talking about him now and feel good talking about, you know, his. You know, the context of the book and how, you know, it brings that up. So that's nice to get that back. Right. To feel like I have that now. It's not just immediate sorrow still.
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B
Thank you. Well, sometimes I feel like the things that we write are the things that, like, we're trying to process and cope with our own fears. And, like, what if. What if this were to happen? What if that were to happen? Like, it's like our dress rehearsal almost for, like, the tragedies of life.
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A
Like, it's so funny that you say that, because it's. Yeah. I mean, I wrote this book. I mean, it took me, like, a year and a half, almost two years to write, but this was over, you know, 20, 23 and 2024, I guess. You know, where I think you get to a certain age and you always think about one day I might lose my parents. But it was not top of mind. My dad was perfectly healthy, you know, so I wasn't, you know, sort of writing about loss in that way. But it is. It's like you said, I think we all. There's a subconscious part of our mind that starts playing out the what ifs. And that's really at the heart of this book. Right. The ultimate what ifs for everything. What if this happened? What if I meet him? What if we reconnect with him? You know, and so it did. You know, art imitating life and life imitating art. It all gets very blurry all the time in novels.
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B
Can I ask how your dad died? You don't have to answer.
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A
Yeah, no, it's not. He's just. I mean, he was 83 years old and just, you know, sort of his body, you know, kind of ran out. There was no specific, you know, immediate cause of death. And, you know, it's. It's. So many of my friends are at this phase of life, right, of losing parents at this point, and it's always like, is the long goodbye where you're prepared and you have, you know, sort of months to come to terms with this better, or is the sudden, you know, which one is sort of more traumatizing? Which is a really fun party game to play, which is the more traumatizing way to lose people. But turns out, spoiler alert, there's no good way to lose anybody that you love. But I'm glad I did have, you know, some real final months of a lot of quality time with him that I consider, looking back, a real gift.
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Well, sorry to have brought this conversation, too. It was, you know, a sadder place.
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A
It's meaningful territory, if not sad.
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B
Okay, yes, meaningful territory because I. I feel the book is not just a rom com. Right? There is a heart to this book, and not that there isn't in rom coms, but you know what I mean? Like, there is an underlying thing of, you know, who are we? Like, who is Korra? What does she want? I love all the indecision at times, you know, because, you know, who hasn't been there? I've certainly been, like, I don't know, like, what do you guys think? What do you think? And especially because Korra has a secret that is really affecting one relationship a lot in particular. And what do we do with the things in our past that maybe we wish we had handled differently? Is there still time? Will that ruin things now? How did you decide to put in that? Did you always know that Cora would have this thing in the past that she would then tell me about that? Today's episode is sponsored by Quints. With summer in full swing, I feel that familiar urge to refresh my closet. But I'm not trying to waste money on pieces I'll only wear once or for just one season. That's where Quince comes in. Their clothes are timeless, feel luxurious, look elevated, and the quality is way beyond what you'd expect for the price. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that just clicks. Think 100% European linen tops starting at $30, washable silk dresses and skirts and soft cotton sweaters. Versatile warm weather pieces you'll reach for again and again. The best part? Everything with Quints is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love Quince. I love the sweaters, in particular the oversized cotton sweater for summer. And I can't recommend this anymore. I'm totally obsessed. Give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.com zibby for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U I N C E.com zy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com zibby Today's episode is sponsored by Wayfair. It is so much fun to entertain, particularly in the summertime when we can be outside and enjoy outdoor space with friends and family alike. If you're having a backyard get together, Wayfair is your one stop shop for outdoor entertaining. Cookout shop, patio tables, grills and dishware. Pool party? No problem. Kick back with lounge chairs, daybeds and umbrellas. Game night. Wayfair's got cornhole croquet and string lights to set the scene and with fast and easy shipping, it has never been easier to get ready to party. So however you kick back outback, go to Wayfair for effortless entertaining and game filled gatherings. I particularly love the outdoor smokeless fire pit which makes any gathering even more festive. And who doesn't love s'? Mores? It's so convenient that Wayfair has everything your home needs this warm weather season. Wayfair's huge selection of outdoor items makes it easy to find exactly what's right for you. In fact, while shopping for outdoor stuff, I got my daughter a vanity which has light bulbs and everything and she just loves it. So you can find anything. Plus, we got a new carpet on Wayfair recently too. Pink and white and she loves it. There is something for every style in every home, no matter your space or budget. Wayfair makes it easy to tackle your summer home goals with endless inspiration for every space and budget, including the outdoors. And there's free and easy delivery, even on the big stuff. No more huge delivery fees for patio furniture, get big stuff like patio sets, gazebos, hot tubs, outdoor dining sets and more. Shipped free. Find all your outdoor must haves from seating to garden trellises, to pool lounges, to trampolines, all in one convenient place. Shop outdoor furniture, grills, lawn games and way more for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to explore a huge outdoor selection That's W A Y-F A I R.com Wayfair Every Style, Every Home BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.
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A
Yeah, I did. I mean, without revealing too much, I think we're all dealing with something, right? And so part of the book was exploring how authentic and honest we can be both with ourselves, right? About what's going on in our lives and with our friends and with our partners. And obviously in a perfect world, your truest partner is somebody that you can lay it all bear with, right? That you can be completely honest and vulnerable, but that in and of itself is a process. And that, you know, as you mentioned, a lot of this book is, is a coming of age story, right? Cora is like learning to be a grown up on an adult in the world. And so that's part of the skill building, right? Like how, how to open up to somebody else. And so, you know, it's really a journey for her to figure out how to do that and to see what parts of yourself that different people bring out. That was really a fascinating thing for me and that was one of the biggest like learning experiences for me in my real life and dating two different people at two different times. It's like all these interesting variables, right, of who we are in those times and then who they are right at these times and then how you interact in these times, you know, so it's just like a fascinating case in human interactions and in love. And so it gave me a chance to explore all that.
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B
So do you find it hard since you have your editor hat that you can put on at any time versus your author hat, do you find it hard to write without immediately going back and correcting? Like how does that work in your head?
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A
I am sort of. I mean, I think I've trained myself from writing, you know, Two other books with Jo that we really had a philosophy. It was like, just get it on the page, you know, like, pour it all out and then go back and edit. I mean, I have to fight my perfectionist tendencies that are not just about editing, but. Right. Like, I always want a first draft to be perfect, which is completely impossible. And yet each time, you know, I'm like, this chapter needs to be perfect out of the gate. So the expectations are here. But being an editor for all these years, I mean, I've been a book editor for 20 years, and so I do feel like it's helped me and have a natural, intuitive sense of how to structure a book. Pacing, right, momentum, character development, things like that. But the line by line, right, is. Is the struggle for everybody, you know, like putting beautiful words together into beautiful sentences, into beautiful paragraphs. And no matter how much editing you've done or writing you've done or how many books you've written, it's. It's, you know, a challenge each and every time. And so I sort of just let the. Just try to get the words out without worrying about them, editing them too much in that process.
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B
Oh, that is good advice. Hard to. Hard to take, but easy to say, perhaps, but, you know, it's so hard.
- [21:33]
A
So the emotional aspect of writing a book does not get easier. Right. Like, you think each time it's like, well, I've done this before, so, you know, I know I theoretically can do it, but each time it's like a different emotional beast, and it brings different, you know, parts out of you and different frustrations and different challenges. And it's frustrating to say, like, I've done this before. Like, you know, why isn't it easier this time? And so I just finally had to accept that it's never going to be easy. And once you kind of surrender to that, you're like, the point is not that it's easy. The point is that you do it. So that's something that I really tried to keep in mind.
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B
I think it's like going back to the friendship theme of the book, too. It's like, I am a certain way with some friends and different with other friends. And sometimes, as much as I like someone, our relationship isn't as easy. And sometimes it's super easy and you don't know why. And in relationships, the same way I feel I just wrote a book that I am throwing out because I'm like, I never wanted to write it and da, da, da. Like, not every book is easy. And maybe you have to Pay attention to that. Like, maybe it's not the right book.
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A
Right.
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B
I have a teenager.
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A
Or learn to let things go. Right. I think sometimes we, like, there's this balance in life, you know, in relationships and art and whatever, where you really have to make a distinction between what is worth holding on to and fighting for as hard as it can be. And I think we're kind of conditioned to think in that way. Like, marriage is hard. Relationships are hard. You know, friendships take work, work takes work, et cetera, et cetera. But there's also this flip side of what should we let go of? Right. Like, what is not serving us? What is not worth it? What is. Even if you love this person, be it a romantic partner or friend or book. Right. If it's not working, then there's some, you know, power and meaning and agency in acknowledging that and making room for something else. And I hope this book shows Cora kind of exploring both of those routes.
- [23:33]
B
Yep, absolutely. So, what, you're already writing another book with Jo? What's on the horizon? Because it's not an episode coming out.
- [23:40]
A
There's all the things all the time. Yeah. Joe and I are writing a third book together, which is due to our publisher in 2016. Six days. Not that I'm counting the end of this month. So we're deep in it and excited about that. And then I'm noodling on another novel. I have, I think, a good idea. This is breaking news here because it's just. I mean, it's maybe, you know, a couple weeks old at this point. So it is a. An amber of an idea. But you know how when you get that little spidey sense, I'm like, oh, there's something there. And I'm more excited than terrified. And so I think that's a good sign.
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B
Very good sign.
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A
Oh, my gosh.
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B
Well, I. I won't ask you anymore because I don't want you next.
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A
Next time I'm here. Yes. We'll hopefully be talking about that.
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B
Amazing. Oh, that's so exciting. When you're not editing for your job, writing for your job. Like, what. What is, like, your go to vice or pleasure? Like, do you have time for anything else that you're, like, super into?
- [24:39]
A
I. I do. I really make time, actually, for other stuff. TV is a big vice of mine. I. I mean, I think just because if you're a storyteller and if you love stories, then you love them in all formats and all the ways they can, you know, materialize in the world. And so TV is The thing I do that helps me decompress the most, honestly, right. Like, after a long day of writing or working or even traveling, whatever I'm doing, right, Finding a really good TV show to lose myself in is great. It's maybe the same way that other people then lose themselves into books, but because I'm doing that all day as my day job, reading, and though I enjoy it very much and do it all the time, doesn't feel like the same sort of mindless escape. So I love tv. I love working out. You know, friendship is such a big part of my life. I spend so much time with my friends and in my myriad group chats, and so that's why that bubbles up so much as a theme, really, in all of my books. I mean, Joe and I wrote a book together essentially about friendship, and I wanted it to be a huge part of all the men I loved again as well. Like, it's a love story for sure, but it's also a love story about friendship. And that is so important to me. Even in the book, Corey says something like, you can't go about a relationship alone. Right. You need your friends to be in a relationship. And I found that in my personal life that that holds true.
- [26:05]
B
Amazing. Well, congratulations, Christine. So exciting. Fabulous cover, by the way, too.
- [26:10]
A
Love it.
- [26:11]
B
Hot pink and red. And it's just so fun and captures the feeling of the book. And. Yeah. Thank you for taking us on this ride.
- [26:20]
A
Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having. Really excited to be here and I'm excited. There's so many great books coming out this summer, so I'm just, like, excited to be one of many. But it's a good summer reading list this year. So excited. For all the people who listen to this podcast who are obviously big readers and have so many good offerings, Yay.
- [26:40]
B
All right, thank you so much.
- [26:41]
A
Thanks so much.
- [26:42]
B
All right, take care.
- [26:43]
A
Take care.
- [26:43]
B
Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
- [27:06]
A
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- [27:46]
B
Love music.
- [27:47]
A
We do, too.
- [27:48]
B
Well, if you ever feel like it's hard to keep up, though, don't worry.
- [27:51]
A
We'Re here to help. Monday through Friday, Daily Music Headlines gets you the top happenings in music from chart toppers, news releases, concert announcements, and more, all in less than five minutes.
- [28:03]
B
Don't miss out. Get the show at DailyMusicHeadlines.com Acast helps.
- [28:15]
A
Creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.