David Denby, EMINENT JEWS: Bernstein, Brooks, Friedan, Mailer

Summary

Podcast Summary: Totally Booked with Zibby – David Denby on "EMINENT JEWS: Bernstein, Brooks, Friedan, Mailer"

Episode: David Denby, EMINENT JEWS: Bernstein, Brooks, Friedan, Mailer
Release Date: April 30, 2025

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Introduction to David Denby

In this enlightening episode of Totally Booked with Zibby, host Zibby Owens welcomes esteemed author and film critic David Denby to discuss his latest work, Eminent Jews: Bernstein, Brooks, Friedan, Mailer. Denby, a New York Times bestselling author and former film critic for both New York Magazine and The New Yorker, delves into the lives and legacies of four influential Jewish figures: Leonard Bernstein, Mel Brooks, Betty Friedan, and Norman Mailer.

David Denby’s Journey as a Film Critic

Denby begins by sharing his unique path into film criticism. A graduate student at Stanford, he recounts how legendary critic Pauline Kael recognized his potential, catapulting him into a prominent role in the industry. Despite being dismissed by Kael after five or six years, Denby considers this a fortunate turn, allowing him the freedom to explore a broader range of subjects beyond film. Over a 45-year career, his essays graced publications like The New Republic and The Atlantic. However, a decade ago, Denby took a hiatus from film criticism, immersing himself in literature until his passion for cinema rekindled.

Denby [04:56]: "I became one of Kael's disciples. And then she threw me out because I never would have written half of what I've written."

Exploring "Eminent Jews"

Zibby Owens steers the conversation towards Denby’s book, Eminent Jews, probing his rationale for selecting the quartet of Bernstein, Brooks, Friedan, and Mailer.

Zibby Owens [07:02]: "I watched the movie and everything. I should know this about Leonard Burns."

Denby explains that while each of these figures is deserving of individual biographies, their collective impact during a pivotal moment in history—post-World War II America—made for a compelling narrative. This era saw the explosion of mass media, with the advent of the long-playing record, television as a mass medium, and the mass market paperback revolution. These mediums provided platforms for these Jewish intellectuals to influence millions.

Denby [07:28]: "They emerged after the Second World War by means of their own gifts and temperament."

Anecdotes and Insights

Denby shares fascinating anecdotes that highlight the resilience and ingenuity of these figures:

• Mel Brooks: Denby recounts Brooks' transformative approach to comedy and his reclamation of the term "Jewish," making it a proud identifier rather than a marginalizing label.

  Denby [16:30]: "He told Johnny Carson, 'This is all a Big fraud... because I wanted to be a Jew comic.'"

  Brooks' ability to infuse humor into sensitive subjects, as seen in his films like Springtime for Hitler from History of the World, Part I, serves as a testament to his innovative spirit.

• Leonard Bernstein: Denby discusses Bernstein’s profound influence on music and his encounter with the Vienna Philharmonic in 1972, where Bernstein confronted the orchestra's lukewarm reception of Mahler's works—a poignant moment illustrating the enduring impact of Jewish artists.

  Denby [11:50]: "He heard grumblings from the ranks. 'Scheisse Musik.' He was shocked. This was their own music, and he had to teach it to them."

• Betty Friedan: Highlighting Friedan’s groundbreaking work, The Feminine Mystique, Denby emphasizes its role in igniting the second-wave feminism movement by reaching a vast audience through the mass paperback format.

  Denby [08:23]: "Betty Friedan's book, the Feminine Mystique, which sort of kicked off Second wave feminism... she sold 1,300,000 copies."

• Norman Mailer: Although briefly mentioned, Mailer's intricate portrayal of characters and exploration of profound societal themes are noted as integral to the book's exploration of Jewish intellect and cultural influence.

Thematic Essence of "Eminent Jews"

Denby articulates the central message of his book: a call for Jewish communities to remain unafraid and vocal, especially in challenging times. He underscores how each of the four figures leveraged their respective mediums—music, film, literature—to advocate for and shape liberal civilization.

Denby [21:40]: "If this book has a message... be not afraid. Everyone needs to hear. Jews need to hear that, get together in groups, talk over what's happening."

In light of recent events (alluded to as post-October 7th), Denby reflects on the contemporary state of Jewish identity and resilience. He posits that these eminent figures would continue to inspire and mobilize the community through their unique talents.

Personal Reflections and Current Relevance

Addressing the current social and political climate, Denby expresses concern over the resurgence of antisemitism and its manipulative use in political discourse. He emphasizes the importance of unity and proactive engagement within Jewish communities to counteract these challenges.

Denby [23:42]: "Trump invites Holocaust deniers to his dinner table... This is all about crushing liberal civilization and starting with the universities."

Despite the potential risks associated with publishing such a work in turbulent times, Denby maintains a stance of courage and advocacy, encouraging others to speak out and uphold the values that these four figures epitomize.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with mutual appreciation between Zibby Owens and David Denby. Zibby commends Denby for empowering Jewish voices, while Denby acknowledges the vital role of Zibby’s platform in fostering important conversations.

Denby [25:34]: "What you do is very important... keep on going."

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Key Takeaways

• Eminent Jews explores the lives of Leonard Bernstein, Mel Brooks, Betty Friedan, and Norman Mailer, highlighting their contributions to arts, culture, and societal change.

• Denby emphasizes the significance of Jewish resilience and influence in shaping liberal thought and media post-World War II.

• The book serves as both a historical account and a motivational message for contemporary Jewish communities to remain unified and proactive amidst rising antisemitism.

• Personal anecdotes from Denby provide deeper insight into the personalities and philosophies of the featured figures, illustrating their enduring legacy.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Denby on Pauline Kael's Influence:
  "I became one of Kael's disciples. And then she threw me out because I never would have written half of what I've written."
  [04:56]

• Denby on Mel Brooks' Identity:
  "Jew still has some power... it's like a brand. It still startles."
  [16:30]

• Denby on Bernstein Teaching in Vienna:
  "He heard grumblings from the ranks. 'Scheisse Musik.' He was shocked. This was their own music, and he had to teach it to them."
  [11:50]

• Denby on Betty Friedan's Impact:
  "Betty Friedan's book, the Feminine Mystique... she sold 1,300,000 copies."
  [08:23]

• Denby on Contemporary Challenges:
  "Trump invites Holocaust deniers to his dinner table... This is all about crushing liberal civilization and starting with the universities."
  [23:42]

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This episode of Totally Booked with Zibby offers a profound exploration of Jewish intellectualism and cultural influence through the lens of David Denby's Eminent Jews. Listeners gain not only historical perspectives but also contemporary relevance, encouraging active engagement and resilience within the Jewish community.

Transcript

[Zibby Owens]

Are you interested in being part of the live studio audience while I film a series for Totally Booked with Zibby Live in New York City? Sign [e-mail] I have a little Google form that you can fill out and if you get selected, you can come sit in the audience, hear from authors before their books have even come out, and be a part of the show again. Go to zibbyowens.com Filmings will be on April 16th, 23rd, 30th and May 7th in New York City. Be a part of it. BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority skills. Wait, did I say job title yet?

[David Denby]

Get started today and see how you.

[Zibby Owens]

Can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply. Hey everyone, I'm Jenna Bush Hager from the Today show and I'm excited to share my podcast, Open Book with Jenna. It is back for season two. Each week, celebrities, experts, friends and authors will share candid stories with me about their lives and new projects. Guests like Rebecca Yarros, Kristin Hannah, Ego Wodom, and more. Like a good book, you'll leave feeling inspired and entertained. Join me for my podcast Open Book with Jenna. To start listening, just search Open Book with Jenna wherever you get your podcast. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibbeowens. David Denby is the author of Eminent Jews, Bernstein, Brooks Frieden, Mailer. David Denby is the New York Times best selling author, also of great books. His other books include American Sucker and Lit Up. He was a film critic for New York Magazine and the New Yorker, where he is now a staff writer. His essays have appeared in the New Republic and the Atlantic. He lives in New York City with his wife, novelist Susan Rieger. Welcome, David, thank you so much for coming on to talk about eminent Jews. Bernstein, Bernstein or Bernstein. I always get it wrong.

[David Denby]

Bernstein. Yeah, Bernstein.

[Zibby Owens]

Right? Yeah, yeah, Bernstein, Brooks Frieden and Mailer. I mean, I watched the movie and everything. I should know this about Leonard Burns. I mean, the one with Bradley Cooper. I mean, that's not the only reason why I should know it. But anyway, welcome.

[David Denby]

Thank you, thank you. I think my throw is pretty good, by the way. A lot of people didn't like it because, oh, it didn't have, you know, more about his Broadway career or more about his Jewishness. But when you make a biopic, I learned this through many years of film criticism. You have to have a plot. And if you're as gifted as Leonard Bernstein and you were good at five or six things, you're just going to go swinging from one thing to another. There are many documentaries about him that do that. And what Brad Cooper decided was, we'll tell a family story, that's what we'll do. And I thought it was very moving. And other parts of his life were sort of stuck in the sides. You saw him conducting a lot. That's, that's true.

[Zibby Owens]

I. Yeah, I loved that movie, to be honest.

[David Denby]

Oh, good.

[Zibby Owens]

And with his wife. Oh my gosh. Anyway, off track. But of course, somehow I find myself talking about film with you. Wait, start off, I want you to talk about this book, but give a little background about your film critic career and all of that. Cause it's quite unique.

[David Denby]

Oh, I was a graduate student at Stanford and the great movie critic Pauline Kael plucked me out of nowhere's ville. And I became one of her disciples. And suddenly I had a job. And then she threw me out after five or six years, said, you don't have it, kid, this is not for you. And that was the first lucky thing that happened, was that she took an interest in this sort of moldy graduate student. And the second great thing that happened was she threw me out because I never would have written half of what I've written. I wrote a Book about Columbia's Western classics course. I've written a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with movies. But I was a critic for 45 years, including at New York magazine and 16 at the New Yorker, going on and off with Anthony lane. Until about 10 years ago when they said enough, Zibi. I just sat on my couch and I read. I didn't want to see any movie at all. Not even Casablanca, not even the Godfather. I just sat there reading, you know, Dickens and Mark Twain. And anyway, now I'm drifting back into. I loved Honora. Yeah, I think it's hilarious. So I wanna see the Bob Dylan movie. And I'm sort of swinging back into moviegoing again.

[Zibby Owens]

I won't tell anyone that you're starting to tread into the movie universe. You can quietly do it and keep it a secret.

[David Denby]

Yeah, exactly. It's become a kind of private communion with you and the screen. What it should be. I like going to the theater. The old magic was you went with strangers, right? And it was a kind of religious. Everyone felt the same thing at the same time. And if you look at people as they come streaming out of a movie theater, they have this kind of glazed look, right? They're not quite. They don't want to, you know, yield up that image and go back to life. And you can see their eyes when they come out into the street. They're still playing the movie and they're still held even a bad movie. So I'm, you know, beginning to enjoy that again.

[Zibby Owens]

I'm so glad. I'm glad you're going back to what you obviously love and, of course, writing, too. And this book in particular, Eminent Jews. So you profiled four different notables. Why these? How did you pick? How did you narrow it down? And why these four? And did you ever consider, like, just writing a book about Norman Mailer or just writing a book about any of them individually? Like, why put all four together?

[David Denby]

Well, they certainly each one deserve a book of their own. And there are very good books about Mailer and Leonard Bernstein. But I thought these four form a kind of moment in time for me. They were born after the First World War and they emerged after the Second World War by means of their own gifts and temperament. And also because it was a time that media were exploding. So if you just look at 1948, the long playing record becomes a mass medium and television becomes a mass medium. And then a few years later, the mass market paperback, Betty Friedan's book, the Feminine Mystique, which sort of kicked off Second wave feminism. Not that she was the only feminist around in the early 60s. She wasn't. But this was the one. It sold about 60,000 copies in hardcover, which is good. 1963.

[Zibby Owens]

I mean, I would take that.

[David Denby]

No, Exactly.

[Zibby Owens]

I'll take 16,000 in hardcover.

[David Denby]

But anyway, go on, we'll take it. Right, exactly. But then it went into mass market, paperback, and you remember when we were kids. Well, maybe when I was a kid, there were those metal circular racks.

[Zibby Owens]

I remember that very well. Yes, right.

[David Denby]

And it would have Shakespeare's tragedies and maybe, I don't know, a novel by Pearl Buck, something like that. And that's where Betty went, and she sold 1,300,000 copies. So in other words, these people, very gifted, little crazy, very egotistical, but also very generous at the same time, which is the paradox. I spend a lot of time working on, entered into the media and reached millions of people in a way that others would not have. Also, I thought this was a period in when Jews were not afraid. Mel Brooks is walking across 57th street near Carnegie hall, and he's the sketch writer for Sid Caesar the Great, your show of shows that was on in the early 50s. And his colleagues are with him from the show. And three nuns are approaching across 57th Street. And the guy on his left says, no, Mel, no. He said, what? And the other guy on his right, who was Neil Simons famous playwright, eventually he said, what is wrong with you? He said, nothing's wrong with me. The three nuns come up close. They're sketch writers for Sid Caesar. They come up close and he says, take off those costumes. The nun's sketch is out. I said to him, how did they react? He said, they hit the ground. Okay. One other very brief anecdote. Leonard Bernstein is in Vienna with the great Vienna Philharmonic in 1972, and he's teaching them their own music, Mahler's Fifth Symphony. Mahler had been head of the State Opera and the conductor of the Philharmonic. He played some of his fantastic symphonies with them. He was a Jew. He was banned from the Anschluss 1938-1945. And they had played some of his music after the war, but they didn't know it, they didn't love it. And he heard grumblings from the ranks. Scheisse Musik. We won't translate this. This is a family network, right? And he was shocked. This was their own music, and he had to teach it to them. So my point is, in those two cases, and I could give you cases for the other Two was, I don't mean to say that being tough with Gentiles is some sort of Jewish virtue. It is not, of course. They were not afraid of being punished. They were not afraid. And I thought, okay, that means something. We're Talking about the 60s in the United States and also overseas. This was an American Jew from provincial Boston teaching the great Vienna Philharmonic how to play their own music. I mean, it's rather extraordinary. And then he went on to have an incredible career as a conductor, as well as a composer and a pianist and a writer and a lover and a teacher and, you know, on and on. Lenny. So I thought this was a period after the war anti Semitism had gone down. I mean, we don't have to say too often it's a kind of foul underground stream that pops up again as at the current moment we've got it popping up again. But after the war, I mean, it was horror over the Holocaust and it was obvious that American Jews were doing well financially. Except the Jews didn't want to say so shush, don't poke the bear, right. It wasn't until the late 90s, Zibby, that scholarship like sociology and economic history caught up with the fact that the Jews had done really well. The working class by 1950 had diminished to like 10%. I mean, it was a middle and upper middle class and upper upper middle class. And, you know, because the enormous number of people went into the professions, not into oil or railroads or steel, not those professions, but certain parts of investment banking, of course, and every kind of manufacture of clothing, retail and lawyering, doctoring, you name it. So there was that. And then there was a powerful group of intellectuals in New York, the so called New York intellectuals who were setting literary standards. A whole bunch of things that suggested that Jews had really enjoyed a kind of success and liberty that in my reading of history they had never had anywhere else before. So that was how would. How, if you were completely free in a way you had never been before, how for good and for ill this is. I don't ignore their terrible faults. For good and for ill. How would you behave as an American Jew? That was the idea of the book.

[Zibby Owens]

And I love that you're like, my story is remarkable and how unremarkable it is. I was just a kid from Park Avenue that moved to West End Avenue.

[David Denby]

That's a New York joke. But I think other people. I got it.

[Zibby Owens]

I'm here. You've got it. I'm here for it. G'day, America. It's Tony and Ryan from The Tony.

[David Denby]

And Ryan podcast from Down Under.

[Zibby Owens]

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[David Denby]

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[Zibby Owens]

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[David Denby]

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[Zibby Owens]

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[David Denby]

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[David Denby]

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[Zibby Owens]

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[David Denby]

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[Zibby Owens]

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[David Denby]

Get started today and see how you.

[Zibby Owens]

Can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply. BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. You know, I found so much of Mel Brooks story interesting because I didn't really know as much about his life as I knew about some of the others. And you know, one thing that you point out is his use, his ownership, taking ownership of the word Jew that before it could be, you know, Jewish was sort of, the more, I think you called it, the more anodyne way to say it. And Jewish, like, you know, something that, you know, hit to the core but by taking ownership of the word and by Mel Brook saying like, you know, I'm a short Jew from whatever and like, you know, actually I'm trapped and I was all the funny things, I can't even do it. That was terrible. But anyway, his use of this word, how it changed things too. Why don't you speak about that for a sec?

[David Denby]

Yeah, he told, he said to Johnny Carson, this is around 1980. I mean, he's very famous. He said this is all a Big fraud. Right. I was born 5 foot 11 inches, perfect straight nose, blonde hair. And I went into. I think he said Mount Sinai, actually. And they knocked the stuffings out of me, and they shortened my legs by 2 inches. And they broadened my nose and they brought my voice down, what you were just saying. Because I wanted to be a Jew comic.

[Zibby Owens]

Yes. Jew comic.

[David Denby]

It doesn't say a Jewish comic. He wants it branded, you know, and it's just a quirk of the language, what you were just saying. Jewish just seems, like, descriptive, you know, and neutral. Jew still has some power, you know, it's like a brand. It still startles. And for the rest of his life, Zibi, the word Jew popped out of him like candy from a gumball machine. Whenever he could say it, he would say it. And, you know, Mel, he's still alive, of course. And I got a note from him, by the way. He said, you got most of it right. I'm taking that as a semi compliment. He did something. I mean, a lot of his jokes are about death. I mean, if you look through his kind of humor. I mean, it's an expression of bodily life. You know, the body and all of its joys and all of its humiliations. Everything we don't need to enumerate, but everything that the body does. And he was saying, I'm alive. You tried to kill all of us. You didn't do it. We're still alive. To the point where he could make fun in his movies of these atrocities. You know, Springtime for Hitler and the producers, which in 1967, caused a lot of shock, I bet. Yeah. And then even more shocking was the Inquisition, another musical number, this one from History of the World, Part 1. Zibby, I panned that movie in New York Magazine.

[Zibby Owens]

No.

[David Denby]

Yes. And he remembered, oh, no. Yes. And I now think that number. I mean, it's part of a whole bunch of sketches in that movie. And some of it is hilariously funny. But there he is as Turquemada, the Grand Inquisitor, in a red cassock with singing and dancing monks and Jews strung up on the walls and being tormented in various awful ways. And I said to him, were you making a message here to the Jews? Like, you're alive, they're dead. Get over it. Get over it. And now, I don't want to put words in his mouth. And I don't know that he would say that since October 7th. But we're talking about 40 years ago, that movie. I thought he was saying, asserting, we have survived, we have survived. And so I can revive these Jew killers, Hitler, Toko, Maddo, in order to kill them again with humor. And so I take him a little more seriously than without, I hope, killing the fun. Because, of course, mainly he's extremely funny, but he's also a kind of critic of manners, you know, in his way. I mean, all those Old west movies when they went out there in the plains for nights and had dinners of beans, what happened then? I mean, certain noises emerge, which has given five generations, four generations of teenagers a great, great thrill. I mean, he's the critic of hypocrisy, of false appearances, false gentility. He's very Russian. He kept telling me I had to read the Russian classics. I mean, he had no education at all. He just ran out of class and got thwacked on the head as he was leaving. But he became a great reader. And when you talk to him, even in his middle, late 90s, he's very precise, very precise. And I said, well, how do you always do that? You say exactly what you want to say in the fewest number of words. And he said, look, you're a kid in the Catskills. You've got three minutes out there. You have to be, you know, can't waste words. But then he also said, not at that moment, but at another moment that you can tell an amateur comic because he rushes to the punchline. You have to learn when to delay or even go off the beat. So those two things, on the one hand, concise, on the other hand, don't rush what you have to say. Build a little suspense.

[Zibby Owens]

We can all learn from Mel Brooks. This is great.

[David Denby]

I think he's one of a kind. It's pretty hard to learn from a genius. That's the problem.

[Zibby Owens]

So how do you feel? I mean, to our discussion of the word Jew, you named it Eminent Jew. So you're using the power of the word even in the title here. And of course, this is coming out post October 7th. How do you feel about since October 7th? Or maybe it made just. How are you feeling about being Jewish yourself, coming out with this type of book? Now, just tell me more about that.

[David Denby]

I feel that if this book has a message, and it certainly didn't begin that way, because I started, I don't know, sometime during the Korean War, you know, but a long time ago. And if there's a message, it is, be not afraid. Be not afraid. I don't have to tell you that, but everyone needs to hear. Jews need to hear that, get together in groups, talk over what's happening, what Donald Trump is doing, what's happening to the universities, what's happening to things that you love, get together, be not afraid and speak up. So that's, I mean, you know, how would they all respond to this moment? Norman Mailer would have written descriptions of Donald Trump's inner life and lack of inner life in a way that would have been just overwhelming, as Prose Betty would have hated the fact that the white Christian male has now been reasserted as the central figure for all humanity. Right. So Lenny would have made music. He would have made speeches too. He made too many speeches, but basically he would have made music because he thought music creates souls, music creates humanity. I mean, and, and he conducted everywhere. And you know that west side Story is. It's put on by Japanese 8 year olds. I mean, it's, it's close. I'm not joking.

[Zibby Owens]

I know, I know you're not.

[David Denby]

Jamie Bernstein, his, his daughter Sundays, particularly in 2018, which was the centenary, it's as universal as any American artwork is. And I mean, it resonates everywhere. So in this moment, he would have continued to make music, certainly, but they all would have. And Mel would have been just disgusted. Well, he is disgusted by Donald Trump and would have created some travesty of the Trump administration that I'm sure would have been great. So they would have responded, each in his own way, in his own genius, I think, and say, be not afraid.

[Zibby Owens]

And are you afraid?

[David Denby]

I'm concerned. I think Trump's using antisemitism on the campuses as a way of denying the great universities the federal funding that's been coming very successfully since the end of World War II. That's a pretense. And the Jews are being set up as the heavies because a lot of people are suffering. And they keep claiming, oh, we're doing this to combat antisemitism. I don't think he gives a damn about antisemitism. I mean, he invites Holocaust deniers to his dinner table in Mar a Lago, he makes vaguely anti Semitic jokes. This is all about crushing liberal civilization and starting with the universities.

[Zibby Owens]

Are you afraid to go on the road with a book like this at this current time?

[David Denby]

I'm not. I mean, I don't. Nothing nasty has come my way. I mean, it's only been out a week, but I'm not at the moment. But let's check back again in six months. So, I mean, yes, cautious, yes. Wary, yes. That's a kind of Jewish characteristic in any case. But no, I don't think I'm afraid and I'm sort of leading with my. With the noses. If you look at the COVID there are some people. Those are David Levine caricatures that were all in the New York Review of Books. A Jewish artist, two Jewish editors. What they were saying is, we can have fun with ourselves with cliches about ourselves. We're not afraid. And some people have said, oh, I don't like those. You know, those. But they're caricatures. They're not photographs. And you know, everyone who got caricatured by David Levine. But these have a particular, you know, you know, fun aspect to them, which I think suggests that the editors and the writer were not afraid. And this was in the 60s and 70s when those pictures were drawn.

[Zibby Owens]

Amazing. Well, David, thank you so much. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for discussing and thanks for empowering other Jews to feel that they can speak out. Thank you.

[David Denby]

Well, let me just say what you do is very important and keep on going. It's very important. You know, this kind of world that you've created is very, very seriously important. So thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Okay, see you next time.

[David Denby]

Until next time.

[Zibby Owens]

Bye. Thank you. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibyoans and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books. Everyone has a reason to change. Growing old, heartbreak, a fresh start. Whatever it may be, Peloton is here to get you through life's biggest moments. With workouts you can do on your time and motivation that keeps you coming back. Peloton's tread and all access membership help you track progress in classes, from runs to Pilates, making you stronger and your fitness goals a reality. Find your push, find your power. Peloton. Visit1peloton.com Live from the Internet's red carpet, it's Vrbo's 2025 Vacation Rentals of the Year, our annual showcase of the very best of Vrbo. Selected from over 2 million private vacation.

[David Denby]

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[David Denby]

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[David Denby]

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[Zibby Owens]

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