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- [00:01]
Zibby Owens
I'm Dr. Susan Swick, a child psychiatrist and the host of Talk About Able. This season, I'm talking with parents and experts about how we tackle the everyday challenges of raising kids. We'll get real about those pebble in the shoe issues we all face as parents and how to build resilience and community through our own experiences. Talk About Able Season 2 from Lemonada Media in partnership with Montage Health and their Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health is out now.
- [00:31]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
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- [04:55]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Yep.
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Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Who has not picked this book? And what is wrong with them?
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Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
I know, it's amazing. It really is. It's just the most humbling thing, isn't it? Like, I mean, I don't know.
- [05:06]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
I've never been a reason to look humbling. I will be really humble. Should I be picked?
- [05:11]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
No, it's incredible. I mean, I've done this before and. And I know this is not what normally happens to books, so it's just incredible. I couldn't love this project more. And so for it to be happening to these characters that I just adore with every fiber of my being. It's just, like, the most incredible thing.
- [05:31]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
I think they deserve it. They've been through a lot.
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Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
They have. They have been through so much.
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Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Yeah. It's really nice. They feel very real to me. I feel like.
- [05:39]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Me, too.
- [05:39]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Okay, tell everybody. I want to hear your whole backstory. And we haven't met before a few minutes ago, so I'm so excited to dive in your backstory, but I also really want you to tell everybody what the book is about and why do you think it's hitting such a nerve?
- [05:54]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
So crazy. Okay, three great questions. So my backstory in a nutshell.
- [05:57]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
No, don't do a nutshell. I want the whole thing, so go straight to what the book is about.
- [06:01]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
It was 1987, and my parents were on the Vineyard.
- [06:04]
Zibby Owens
No,
- [06:06]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
no. I am a career editor, so I've worked in book publishing for 15 years. I work at Clarkson Potter, which is the premier illustrated publisher, so we're known for big cookbooks like Martha Stewart, Ina Garten. I don't work on those. I work on the stuff you buy near the checkout counter or on the coffee table. So we probably have some things in my realm behind us right now. And I've always wanted to write, so it's been a really nice compliment where I get to work with lots of visual artists, lots of experts in their field, but it's not fiction editing, so it's incredibly complimentary. And I've gotten a real education on the business, on just creative art in general through my job. And then on the side, I've always written. So I published my first book in 2021, Songs in Ursa Major. And then into the Blue is my sophomore book. So it's been a really interesting ride for the last five years, figuring out how to do it again. I really feel like it's different every time you sit down to write a book. You're bringing different energy to the table. You're bringing a different set of values and a different past. So. So that's how sort of I got here in the raw bullet points. Not the shortest version, the second shortest version. And then into the Blue is an epic love story about AJ Graves and Noah Drew, who meet working at a video store in the year 2000. They form a deep, cosmic artistic connection, and then Noah disappears without a word. So the book then follows them for 13 years, and you get to watch them evolve as they go from being these nerds that work in a video store to being people that actually produce the Media that's in the video store. So he becomes an Academy Award winning actor, she becomes a writer for snl, and then along the way, they star in a cult TV show called into the Blue. Through the 13 years, they never stop longing for each other. They never stop loving each other. And ultimately, I think this book is about two people figuring out what lights them up and how to make a life around that and whether they can actually find the courage to do it. So it's been amazing watching it translate to different people because there are aspects of it that I think are so timeless. I was really inspired by classic epic love stories like Romeo and Juliet and Wuthering Heights, but I was also really inspired by the Force Connection in Star Wars. So there's an absolute nerdy edge to this book. But what I'm loving seeing the reception and seeing as readers begin to get their hands on it, is that people are finding ways to connect with it that I never even imagined. So I think that's the most incredible thing about art. Like, you can. You have your places where you're touching the creation, but there are whole other, like, dark sides of it that you don't even necessarily realize. So I'm excited to see it out there and see what people actually find and discover that resonates with them. It's the best part.
- [09:06]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Oh, my gosh. Amazing. Well, you have so many themes. There's so much about family. There's family, health, loyalty, risk taking, longing, regret. People getting in their own way.
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Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Yes.
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Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
People trying to find a way. It's like a backstop against pain, which is impossible.
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Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
I love that.
- [09:31]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
You can use it.
- [09:33]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Taken. Yeah, you heard it here first, folks. No, it's really true. I think control and self protection are two big themes in the book. And I think AJ and Noah come at it from different angles. I think she's very afraid of being exposed and being seen. She's a middle child from a very large family, and her mechanism for coping with life is just to constantly make jokes out of everything. And she views herself at the beginning of the novel as this sort of side character. Like she views herself as the comic best friend. And I think what's so cool about her relationship with Noah is that he sees her as having main character energy. So he's constantly pulling her into the main character spotlight, both literally and figuratively throughout the novel. And then he is. He is so amazing. He is just so hot and he's.
- [10:25]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
And so tall.
- [10:26]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
And so tall and. And he's brilliant and he feels very deeply and he's an incredible performer, and he really views himself as a loner. So AJ Is constantly challenging his narrative. Like, he thinks he's on a hero's journey, which is essentially like, I have to sacrifice myself for my values, and I will end up alone. And I think the constant tug between them is she's constantly pulling him into a heroine's journey, where she's like, no, we can do this together. And it's very cool watching these two tensions play out between these two people over the course of such a long period of time. Cause they never really go away, but they find new ways of orienting themselves towards it. And they feel very real to me, too.
- [11:06]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Well, Noah, who, as I think my kids would say, is giving Jacob Elordi love.
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Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Yes. Love is for us.
- [11:15]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Noah is from an acting family.
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Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Yes.
- [11:17]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Right. So he is like a Sutherland or something like that.
- [11:20]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Yes, a Barrymore. Yes, a Barrymore.
- [11:22]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Something like that. And when they have this very deep connection, it happens through acting. Yes, in the beginning. And his aunt has taken quite an interest in Noah and AJ who had never acted before. And they have this, like, incredible chemistry and dynamic, and they both just throw themselves into this improv. And the acting itself is a through line in the book. And how they interact together, how they watch each other act. And even that piece of it I found really fascinating. What does it take to be a great actor or actress? Today is a two in one episode with two amazing cookbook authors and talk about that through line. And I was. As I read it, I was like, is Emma. Did Emma ever act? Does she want to act? Does she study acting? Because there seems to be, like, a big lens on the mechanics of that.
- [12:17]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
I love performers. My mom's a performer. My first book is about a musician. I think performance is such an interesting space because really, performance stories are ultimately about integrity and honor. So I love those values. And I do think there's so much fun to be had when you have this sort of area in a book that's a break from real life that's built into the storytelling. So I love getting to play with that. And we really play with that. And into the blue. There's so much where there are times where what's happening on stage is actually the truth, and what's happening in life is the performance. And it reverses. And there's a lot of really fun push, pull within the show about that. I had such a blast. I really enjoyed myself playing with all of those dynamics. So to answer your question, one of the other main through lines that sort of goes along with the acting is improvisation. So I think this is a massive motif in the book is like, do you have to follow the script in your life? Like, is there a normal life? And are there benchmarks we all have to hit to feel good about ourselves, to feel like we've done it, done this thing called life? Or can you just make it up as you go along? And that push and pull is mirrored by them being in scripted productions versus unscripted productions. So it all kind of weaves together. But I think it's all an incredible metaphor for love at the end of the day. And the idea of the long conversation where you meet this person and you just have so much in common. I think there's a lot about fandom in the book that also plays into that dynamic. And they're all different kinds of connections that happen in a contemporary setting where, you know, we meet, we connect about Jane Austen. I can talk to you for an hour. It doesn't matter. You have no past, you have no future. But we both love Jane Austen. I'm assuming that I don't actually know
- [14:08]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
that she's alright,
- [14:12]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
but fill in your blank. And I think having having the ability to fan over something together, like that's one of the. That's one of the truest forces for instant connection I've ever seen. And with improv, it's really similar as well, where. Where if you. Who's a good partner, who's willing to support you and go with the things that you're saying, and where you can have a sort of deep level of trust, where you can sort of let anything come out of your mouth. I've seen that happen in real life too. And it's another version of that soul connection happening in a contemporary setting where I just wanted to have every single ability, I wanted to have every single venue I could for dramatizing that for these characters. So that's sort of where it all came from.
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Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Well, after we develop sort of deep attachments to both characters, we go through some major health family type stuff. I'll just keep it quite vague. But both of them have to wrestle, as so many of us do at some point or another, with something happening to someone we love or who's a huge piece of our family or our inner circle or whatever. And they both have to handle the lack of control of that, the pain of that for themselves, how to help someone else through what that means. Like, these are big questions. Tell me about where all this comes from for you, how you put this in the book.
- [15:35]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
I've had lots of experiences that feed into the book. And I think what you can see in the book is it reflects my capacity to sit with pain and grief and also my capacity to sit with joy, which comes from, like, too much to go into here. But I think one thing I wanted to paint, and I think this is another reason why I chose actors, is how when you're. When you are going through a major health thing, like a chronic long health thing, you sort of have no choice but to put on a show. You can't go to work and be falling apart. You can't be falling apart for your kids. You have to be able to put that on a shelf. And I think this is something that we see over the course of the book, that some of the deepest performances that are happening in the book are actually coming from a struggle like this. And all the acting is kind of an offshoot of it. And at times it's actually a vent showing, like, the pain that's actually underneath. And one of the things I wanted to sort of poke at with this is the idea of a safe choice, because I think, you know, we all kind of know in the Vegas terms that we're not going to be here forever. But I think there are lots of deals and bargains that we make where we're like, oh, well, this person's young. They'll be around for a long time. Oh, this person's healthy. They'll be around for a long time. And in reality, we actually don't know at all, any of us. And I think that sort of playing around with that filter and having it be something that moves throughout the book, where it's not just one character who's affected by health difficulties and. And challenging the response to it in multiple ways, I think was just a really great way to process a lot of grief that I've been through and to sort of give a voice to a lot of people who are silently struggling with this stuff, because a lot of it happens behind closed doors.
- [17:25]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Do you want to open any of the doors?
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Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
No, I didn't think so.
- [17:31]
Zibby Owens
And that's fine.
- [17:31]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
That's totally fine. I have to say, I feel like my whole Instagram is just other people's terrible news all the time. Like, I have stumbled into some sort of algorithm where every time I open it, it's like, this happened to this teenager. This happened. It's like tragedy after tragedy. And in my head, it's like, I know there are billions of people or however many, but every day getting Shown some terrible things specifically changes how I view the world, view the day, that view, you know, the events of that day. And I feel like in portraying these things that happen here, it's almost like you're letting us take the time to process where we're not just being bombarded by the bad stuff in the world ourselves. So it's like we get a chance to metabolize it through the story.
- [18:21]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
I love that so much because one of the things that I think is really beautiful about science fiction, which is one of the decorative pieces of this novel, like, I would say that the novel's an epic, but there are science fiction sort of decorations throughout, is that it's traditionally a genre that allows you to examine very terrestrial problems, but mapped onto distant worlds so it's safer and you're able to do that. And I think to your earlier question about, like, why is this resonating? I think books about yearning and longing are about grief. Like, I think they're a safe way to process things. The same way that it's safe to process aggression while watching sports, or it's safe to process a need for control while watching a murder mystery where every single clue buttons up nicely. And doesn't that feel so good? In stories about longing, I think you are processing your unprocessed grief and you're able to get some closure when the characters find their closure or their catharsis. Because I'm not giving away the ending. We don't know if they find closure. You're gonna have to read it. But. But I think that that is a piece of it as well. I think, to your point, there's so much ambient dread and sadness, and there's so much need to find a way in a safe corner to process that. And I do think books are an incredible. An incredible resource in this time where there doesn't seem to be a lot of safe corners.
- [19:40]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Yes. Amen to that. Okay, so tell us about either or. How about both? Having Jenna pick the book for the publishing. What was that like? And then fast forward to January, where you found out you were Reese's Book Club pick.
- [19:56]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Both were very exhilarating. So we sold the book to Ballantine in December of 2024. Jenna was in from the beginning. So the way that her imprint works is that she's a part of the acquisition process. So she was on our very first phone call. I was so impressed by her seriousness and how game she was, because we're talking about a lot of the deep themes in the book. There's Also a space whale in the book. Like, there's a lot of whimsical, crazy stuff that is so fun, and I think you're really gonna enjoy it. But I wasn't sure. I'd never met Jenna, and she jumped in with both feet. Like, our first conversation, we're having chats about the space whale. We also cut several characters. Like, we. She was really involved in the shaping, so she really came to this as someone who had the right values about the book, really wanted to help translate it to the largest number of readers possible, and she had great feedback. So she's been an incredible support and incredible resource. Like, I've worked with a lot of publishers as an editor, and it's great to have one who has such a strong eye for these themes that you were talking about. Like, she has such a great bone and instinct for the family relationships and what's going to sink in on that more primal level. So she's been such an incredible advocate and partner. And then, yeah, because Jenna was involved, I didn't even know. I didn't think we were eligible for book clubs. So this wasn't even remotely on my horizon. I found out on January 13, we were supposed to get a washing machine installed and they didn't unplug the propane. So I was at home with five dudes who were arguing about how this washing machine is gonna get installed. And I get a crazy text from my editor who's like, can you get on the phone? And I was like, what now? And then it was this news that Rhys wanted to make it the April book. So that was a complete shock. I think I burst out laughing and told Jenna to shut the fuck up. It was an absolute shock and just the most joyful, unexpected boon to this publication. So I was so grateful. And then it's a lot of work to pull up a book. So my team was unbelievable because they all had other books slotted for April 7, so they found the time to work on this campaign. And we were through the editorial process, thankfully, but the COVID wasn't finished. So these amazing end papers that are in here that you'll get to glimpse at some point, they were produced in, like, 48 hours. It's just everyone. It was all hands on deck, and it's been a blur the last few months. And not getting to tell anyone has been interesting because you have to keep it completely confidential. Isn't that beautiful? So the comets are sort of AJ and Noah coated. There's a pink one for AJ and a blue one for Noah. So pretty. So, yeah, it's been really.
- [22:42]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
These are my colors, FYI. The light blue, navy. Oh, love that.
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Zibby Owens
It's okay.
- [22:45]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
I'll lend them to you. That's wild and exciting and amazing. Were you. And you were free, you were okay to do all this stuff in April instead of the summer?
- [22:56]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Of course, of course, of course. It actually, it worked out great. Like, my biggest fear was that I was going to have a book on the day that I was publishing, and luckily it was in a free week. And that's amazing. And, yeah, my colleagues have been very supportive, and it's just been a complete whirlwind. But how thrilling, right?
- [23:15]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
What was your writing ritual like? Take us through your writing setup. Do you have, like, special snacks that you like or you have, like, a hideout that you like to write in or.
- [23:26]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
I have an office, so I do my. My job on my. In my desk and I do my writing on my couch. So I'm sort of facing a different window. And because I work full time, I don't have a set hour or anything like that. I kind of have to take each day as it comes. But I have components, like Julia Cameron would call it your grid as a writer that I need to sort of hit my grid every day. So it doesn't have to be in the same order, it doesn't have to be in the same time. But I need an hour walk, which is just pure imagination time. I leave all devices that have any connection to the outside world. I listen to whatever weird music I want. I am not perceived. I'm in nature. No one can see me. And that's really important to take seriously. I think if you're a fiction writer, like, you gotta make time for your imagination. I do morning pages, which I think of as sort of a safety deposit box for your worldly cares and woes. So they're prescribed to be first thing in the day. I don't do it first thing in the day every day. But it's three pages longhand, stream of consciousness. And I think of that as sort of the warmup before doing the workout. And then my. It's not a treat, but I have earplugs, and I love them. And earplugs go in. And I like total silence when I'm writing. And that's just a me thing. Like, some people write to music, there's no right way to do it, but for me, I want to completely discorporate. I don't want to be there. I don't want to hear the sound of My own typing, it's annoying. So I go into a completely silent cone and do whatever I have to do that day.
- [24:52]
Zibby Owens
Wow.
- [24:54]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
So how many, like, how long does it take to write this length of a book with a full time job and everything else?
- [25:02]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
So I wrote the first draft in five months. It was pretty long. So a typical novel is 90,000 words. And the first draft of into the blue was 150,000. And then by that point, I think it took me that long to sort of form the attachment I needed with the characters and really understand aj. Noah was actually easier for me. And then I was like, okay, I know what to do. I'll rewrite it, and I'm going to streamline this and make it shorter. And the second draft was 180,000 words. So by this point, I have this enormous book, and I think actually getting it into fighting shape, the final product's 130,000 words. And the constant argument with myself is like, we're putting out romanticies all the time now that are 700 words. Like, I know readers can do a long book, but this is heavier in some ways. So I did want it to be within the bounds of what we would normally do on a commercial novel. And I think getting it down to fighting shape was actually the thing that took the longest. So between my agent and my editor and Jenna, we did multiple passes, and I think that process took 16 months.
- [26:10]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
If AJ and Noah were in the room, just describe them for someone else. What would they be doing right now? Would they even be in here? Where would they be sitting? Would they be sitting next to each other?
- [26:21]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
They'd be in the back. I think they would be sitting next to each other, looking directly ahead, like maybe 3cm apart. Not touching, but almost touching. And I think they would be listening or pretending to listen and listening. Maybe occasionally making jokes under their breath about us, but secretly, like, the whole inner monologue would just be thinking about each other. So that kind of like, maintaining the connection in public in whatever way they can. And, yeah, whoever would be in front of Noah would have, like, his legs under the chair. Like, you'd be like, who's this person who's crowding me because he's really tall, as Zibby mentioned. And, Yeah, I think AJ's a good girl. So you wouldn't notice her. Like, if you were sitting behind aj, who's also a little tall, she'd be like, oh, I'm sorry, that's aj. So, yeah.
- [27:12]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, any advice to aspiring authors? Last question.
- [27:16]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Yes, Just start. And I know that's not original advice, but I think the way you learn to write a book is by writing a book. And there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't. I think writing is ultimately an act of service, where ultimately the work that you're doing is to make it worthy of a readership. But I also think there's got to be something in it for you, because if you don't find joy and you don't like what you're doing initially, you're not going to have the stomach to sit with it for two to three years if you need to. And I think that starting and just letting yourself play is the best advice that you can possibly listen to, because if you enjoy what you're doing, it's going to translate and it's going to make the work worth it. So get in there.
- [28:06]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
I know I said that was the last question. What did you get out of writing this book?
- [28:10]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Oh, my gosh, I got so much out of writing this book. I mean, first of all, just going through it with them and witnessing it was absolutely a transformative and intense emotional experience. Like, it. I was crying every day. Like, it was an amazing catharsis just to. Just to witness this love and get to be so close to it and carry it and shepherd it. And I was both bereft and relieved when it was over. And then having to see it through to publication transformed my life. Like, I switched editors, I switched agents. Like, following this story and staying true to it ultimately brought me to, like, the bravest team in the business. And it's been the honor of my life getting to work on this book. So, yeah, there's not been one. One relationship in my life that hasn't been shifted in some way because I spent so much time with these characters.
- [29:02]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Emma, congratulations. We're so excited for you.
- [29:05]
Zibby Owens
Thank you.
- [29:07]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Thank you for having me.
- [29:09]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Of course. Today's episode is sponsored by quints. As you guys know, I am obsessed with quints. I've been talking about them for a while because I love the quality of the clothes, the fit, the price, really everything about it. My two latest finds, which I'm sure you'll see me wearing on Instagram, are this adorable white dress. It goes to the. The ankle, basically, and has a tank top on top. And I also got a jean jacket from Quince, and I plan on wearing them together all summer long, and I'm just super excited about it. Quince has always been my go to, but now the fabrics just feel elevated. The fits are so flattering. Everything just works and I don't have to overthink it. Quince uses premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton and ultra soft denim. Maybe that's why I like it all so much. Their lightweight linen pants and dresses and tops start at $30 and are effortless, breathable and easy to wear on repeat. Everything at Quint's is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. It's amazing. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not brand markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quints.com zivi for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Quincy for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Zivi Today's episode is sponsored by Whatnot. Okay, so Whatnot is a live shopping platform where you can get items across all different divisions from beauty, apparel, bags and more. But what I have found is it is the perfect place to get kids birthday gifts. There are neatos for those of you who don't know, Neatos are these little plastic toys which are all the craze people go neato hunting anyway. They have neatos and squishies and everything you can imagine for better prices than competitors. There are great deals and it is so fun to shop in this dynamic interactive platform. My steals included a Jelly cat Heart for $5.38 and Jelly Cat Toasty Marshmallows for $9.89, not to mention Anito for $6.26. I'm not surprised that Whatnot is the largest live shopping marketplace in the country because it's a trusted shopping experience in a real time format and There are over 10,000 fashion, beauty and bag sellers all over and you almost never pay full price, which of course is amazing. So let me tell you, I had the best time with my kids going on Whatnot and then there were things for me too. But it was more fun for them in my opinion. So download the Whatnot app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search Whatnot w h a t n o t Whatnot in the App Store and start scoring amazing deals. Today's episode is sponsored by Wayfair. After the fire in the Palisades, we had to redo our entire outside area and we found the best stuff on Wayfair. We found adorable throw pillows that looked fabulous. We found one round carpet, one square carpet we found coffee tables and all sorts of things that made our outside feel like home again. Wayfair is amazing because it has everything you could possibly need and it's so easy to find. Wayfair made it so simple for us to narrow it down to what we wanted for our style and budget. It also features reviews, films, filters and visual tools that help us find the right fit. Every style, every outdoor space. Whether your vibe is modern, coastal, farmhouse or eclectic, Wayfair has the options you need to help you create an outdoor space that's uniquely yours. And everything is in one place from outdoor seating and grills to storage, patio, lighting and rugs and decor, which is what we got. Wayfair is your one stop shop for Home Plus. You can trust in the delivery, installation and assembly services are available for a truly seamless experience. It was so easy for us to order and receive all of our items. Plus over 20 million verified 5 star reviews helped me make the right call. Real customers, real feedback and real homes. You can also shop with Wayfair Verified your shortcut to the good stuff. Their team of product specialists vets everything by hand using a 10 point quality inspection. So you know you're getting a quality piece no matter your budget. Get prepped for patio season for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Wayfair Every style, Every home. Welcome to Totally Booked Live. I'm so excited to be here today with Morgan Radford, the author of Now Then so Exciting Civvy.
- [34:08]
Zibby Owens
Thank you so much and thank you for coming. I feel so cool. I'm like, I can't believe this is the first, first time I've seen my book at scale in the wild. So it's a completely wild moment. Thank you. Thank you for making the time to come and thank you for having me.
- [34:20]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Of course.
- [34:21]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
I'll just read your bio so people know who we're dealing with here. But Morgan Radford is an anchor for NBC News. Raised in Greensboro, North Carolina, she received her bachelor's degree from Harvard University, a master's degree from Columbia Graduate School of Journalism and a Fulbright Fellowship. She lives in New York City with her husband David and their daughter Adelana. Now then, it's her debut novel, Woo Hoo. Thank you, Morgan. I DMed her because the book was so good I could not put it down. I couldn't. You know what, you tell everybody about it But I just. Let me preface it by saying, you will not want to put this book down.
- [35:02]
Zibby Owens
That is the kindest compliment one could give a very nervous debut author whose book has not yet hit the shelves.
- [35:09]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
So thank you.
- [35:12]
Zibby Owens
The book is about a black Cuban girl from the mountains in North Carolina who goes to Harvard. Shocker. Her name is not Smorgan Schmadford. And she falls in love with this British Indian postdoctoral student. And there they begin this on and off again romance that explores a lot of themes. Right. Intercultural relationships, what it means to belong, what it means to feel out of place. Place and out of water when you go to college in a system that wasn't necessarily built for your inclusion. And then the other half of the book is told through her mother's perspective. Marisol, who fled during just before the height of the Cuban Revolution. And what it was like for her to come to America and to try to belong in sometimes the binary cultures of America as she was finding her way as Cuban immigrant. And their stories intertwine through letters and conversations that the letters spark. And we follow their stories together. And I hope you read it, and I hope you fall in love with them as much as I did.
- [36:14]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
It's like two books in one, because we're getting multiple stories and a love story and a mother daughter story and history. I mean, it's a lot all packed in. I just wanted to read one line from chapter 17 from Marisol's perspective. And it starts. Do you know what it's like to have your body ripped apart from the inside out? To feel your soul leave your frame, rise above you and stare back down at you, mocking you with its freedom? Powerful. Do you know what this is like? Tell us about the point of view here and why in one part of the story, you want to take us into what is a quite traumatic experience for Marisol.
- [36:56]
Zibby Owens
Yeah. I mean, and without giving too much away. And also sensitivities for people who have had those experiences, one that I have not personally had, but I think had read enough and learned enough to be able to empathize with what I imagined an experience with sexual assault like that would feel like. And I wanted to explain what that divorce looked like between body and mind in a moment like that. I've interviewed many, many survivors of sexual assault. And one of the most chilling things is the way that they say they have to disassociate to get through that moment. And I thought having this moment where this woman is an immigrant and she is already dissociated from her Home country. She has already dissociated from everything she knew. And then to have the additional trauma of having to dissociate for her own survival in that moment, I thought was a powerful way to express what many women unfortunately have gone to. Many people and a lot of people who are in, you know, political experiences or prisons and things like that. So with the context of the book, I think it becomes more clear. But I think that sense of dissociation was something that was important to explore.
- [38:17]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Tell me a little more about the fish out of water feeling. And in your bio, you went to Harvard. There is a whole storyline at Harvard. Adjusting, finding your way, finding the right relationship for you, all of that talk a little bit about that feeling and how it felt to write about it.
- [38:35]
Zibby Owens
It felt natural to write about it because the feeling I feel and have felt often through my life, I mean, I think there is an otherness that comes with many of these experiences, right? I mean, my mother is a mixed race black woman, part Jewish, part black. My father is an, you know, Afro, Caribbean, Jamaican and Cuban roots. And they grew up in West Virginia. I grew up in North Carolina. West Virginia is a pretty white state. Like you imagine growing up as like a black person with an accent in a place like West Virginia. There's an othering that I think happens. And out of that othering, for me, it really bred a sense of compassion and it really allowed me to see multiplicity in people and in spaces and environments. But it meant that it was, you know, my parents always taught me that your job and your duty is to love the world, but the world may not always love you back in the same way that you love it. And that was a hard thing to reckon with as I got older. And so when I went to Harvard, I mean, I had never met anyone who went to Harvard. Like, my dad's a first generation college student. I went to a public high school in North Carolina. I remember being on campus. I remember where I was when I found out that you could pay to study for the SAT to get into Harvard. I was someone's like, yeah, my, like, you know, Kaplan tutor, whatever. And I was like, there are services that you could have. Like, I was in a dusty church basement where I took this test, right? I just didn't know. And you learn that there's so much that you don't know. And I'm still asking the question myself. What do I not know as I'm trying to raise my daughter, right? What spaces should I be opening for her? What tools should I be giving her that I'm yet unaware of, right? And so that fish out of water experience, I think many of us feel it, whether we feel it privately, whether it's racially based, whether it's, you know, gender based or sexual identity, whatever it is. Like, we've all had that experience of otherness. And I think there is profound connection that can be found when we are vulnerable enough to express it, to explore it. And ultimately, my dream for the world, my dream for the readers of this book, my dream for my daughter, is that when she approaches difference, she approaches it with compassion and with curiosity, not with defiance, not with disdain, certainly not with exclusion, but embraces the person who is bearing the weight of that otherness with inclusivity. And so that is what I hope the readers take, right? These Wikipedia pages, these bios, they're so deceiving. You would read my bio and see all these peaks, but no one would ever see the valleys. They would never see the moments of crippling self doubt when I'm crying at night, not only asking, now then, now what? Right? And so I think it's really important that we are brave enough, you know, and courageous enough to humble ourselves in front of this experience of life and say, I don't have all the answers. I've actually never had all the answers. I might not get all the answers. And that too is okay.
- [41:55]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Your voice is so soothing. Don't you feel like I'm like, wait, am I doing something here? I feel like I'm just gonna, like, you know, drift off in a land of, you know, self acceptance and pleasure. So let's go back to some of the peaks in addition to the valleys. How did you go from Harvard to being on NBC and all, like, what happened in between?
- [42:22]
Zibby Owens
Well, girl, I don't know if I can answer your question without a valley because. No, you don't have to. You can go.
- [42:29]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Just take us through that journey. Ups and downs.
- [42:31]
Zibby Owens
No, the devastating truth is that I graduated and I had applied for a Fulbright fellowship to South Africa, where I was teaching in university. But the South African school school year is January to December. And so I had these dead months after I graduated, and I was honestly quite depressed. My family had just moved from Greensboro, North Carolina to Atlanta, and I didn't have a job. And all my friends, like, you know, you graduate college, hell, you graduate from Harvard, and, like, the promise is that you're gonna, you know, hit the job market, everyone's gonna want you, you're gonna make all this money. No, I was like, living in my parents home, all my friends were coming to New York, making all this incredible money at investment banks. And I was just looking for something to do before I left for South Africa. And when my parents moved to Atlanta, I went to CNN as an intern. Again, I had never, like, met a journalist. I had not written for my school paper. And when I walked in, it was like a scene out of a movie where you hear like, angels in the sky. Like, oh, you know, it was just, you know. And remember, this is when internships weren't paid. So I'm coming in at 2am for a 2am shift, essentially taking out the trash and loved it. And so my new metric for like, success or even just guiding how I determined what I wanted to do was not looking at the person with the most power in the building. It wasn't looking at the main anchor and being like, I want that job. It was, I have the lowest job and I still want to be here. And I'm still excited and I'm still waking up before my alarm. And so I just started asking, like, how does a, like, regular degular person, you know, go from here to. In that little TV screen? And I started finding out, like, you need what's called a resume reel, which is a string of stories that may or may not have actually aired to kind of show what you can do. And so I gathered that data. I went to South Africa. And when I was in South Africa, knowing that I didn't have all these skills because I, you know, had only had this one internship, I applied to Columbia Journalism School from South Africa, and I got rejected. And I was like, oh, shit, what do you. What do you do now? Like, I. I just. If you won't even allow me to pay you to teach me the skills, this must be a wrap for me, right? So I came back to America. I applied to every local news station from, like, here to Juneau, Alaska, Biloxi, Mississippi, you name it. And I got rejected from every single one. It wasn't like, in the end, one said yes, and my career, like, like, literally no. The answer was no. And I remember driving back from the last interview in Augusta, Georgia, where I'd been told no. And I'm like, crying in the car and I'm like, calling my dad, and I'm like, dude, do I need to go work at Starbucks so I can get, like, health insurance? Like, what do I do? And my dad was like, you are never too proud to take care of yourself, so whatever you need to do, you are never too proud Never be too proud to take care of yourself. And so I, you know, I applied for other jobs and things like that, but I remember my mom saying, you know, you have had all this experience because you went to South Africa. I had started a program with the first generation of Born frees who were 16 years old at the time, and they were born the year that Mandela was freed. So they were the first generation of South Africans who had really experienced freedom. And I had taught them how to make little documentaries and videos, and I had taught myself how to edit while I was there, thinking, look, if I can't pay someone to teach me how to do it, at least I'll teach them how to do it. And so I had come back with all this footage, and she was like, you know, why don't you reapply to Columbia and try again? And I'm like. They said, no, they don't want me. You know, I'm so proud. And I went home that night and I said, all right, let me just look it up. And I looked up the admissions deadline. It was the next day. And I'm like, yo, God, do you hate me? Like, do you actually profoundly hate me? And I remember I was like. I just relinquished control. I went to bed that night, I said, I need my sleep to function. Well, I woke up and I just crammed the application the next day. And I'll never forget the last line. It essentially said, I've learned that I'm a journalist whether or not you officially stamp me as one, so I invite you to come enjoy this ride. And I got in with a full ride scholarship. But because of that experience. Experience, I always stayed, like, strapped with my resume reel. So even when I went to Columbia, they would say, oh, you know, you can. You can network and you don't need to have a resume reel. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. I had been, like, you know, rejecting so many jobs. I always had my resume reel. At this time, it was like CD ROMs in my purse. Like, I was selling, like, you know, hotcakes in Harlem, like, out of, like, my, like, discs out of my boot of my car. And so then I met the woman who had talent at abc, got hired, and then Al Jazeera America was starting when my contract was up, so they could kind of poach me. And then NBC found me when I was there, and the rest has been history.
- [47:21]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Oh, my gosh, let's applaud that. I find so often in people's stories, there's one person, one person saying the Right thing at the right time is the difference between giving up and keeping going towards a goal.
- [47:36]
Zibby Owens
Totally.
- [47:36]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
So I'm glad you're. Your parents were supportive that you didn't give up.
- [47:41]
Zibby Owens
Have a good village.
- [47:42]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
You have a good village. That's amazing. So you're at the height of success in your journalism job. Why tackle writing a novel? Like, don't you have enough going on?
- [47:53]
Zibby Owens
I had a lot going on. I did just have a baby, you know, I. It spoke to me. The truth is, I never thought I would write a novel. I'm an avid reader. Like, what you do is my dream work. Like, I would love to just, like, read and curate and recommend. Right. Like, I never. I love music, but I'm not gonna, like, pick up a drumstick. I can't even. I'm illiterate. Like, I can't read music, you know? But I. Shortly after I was married, this guy who I had had this sort of romantic, amorous relationship with in college, circled back after 12 years. Like, in the. You know, never. Never heard from. We're not on. I don't think he's on any social media. Like, there was no following just out of the blue. And I remember where I was, and I got a LinkedIn message, and he always used to start every conversation with now, then. And the subject said, now, then. Would you fancy a cup of coffee? And I look at my husband. We were walking in Miami, and I was like, hey, this guy. College. Would you feel okay if I just. Yep.
- [49:02]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Bop.
- [49:02]
Zibby Owens
Popped over on the Upper west side, you know? And again, my husband and I went to college together, so it's like, I've seen every iteration of his girlfriends. We were just friends during uni, and he's like, yeah, dude, you know, no problem. And I met with him for what I thought would be just like a normal, you know, coffee. And in this conversation, I mean, he kind of went right in. It was sort of like no time had passed, but he was clear that he was, like, processing, I guess, if you wanted to call it, like, a breakup or what had. And I had not thought this was the conversation. I had not thought this was where we were headed. But, like, there's actually a beauty, I think, in someone else holding your reality with you. There's. There's actually a beauty in saying. Because otherwise, like, I would have just gone the rest of my life, and I would have had some recollection of this experience and what it meant to me, but to know that someone else actually had the same experience. And here we are 12 years later. And you shared that little pedacito, that little piece of reality is actually quite powerful. And. And I say this to say this is also someone who is a very person. And what was also powerful about that experience for me was that we talk about belonging. Here was a guy, a British Indian guy from Yorkshire, the son of a shopkeeper, and this black Cuban chick from a public school in North Carolina who had met on the grassy knoll of a university that by all odds, like, neither of them would have, like, gotten into, right? And completely saw each other. He completely saw who my parents had raised. He completely saw who I was, but who I was trying to become. And that is a gift for any human to see you in that way. And so, you know, we have this conversation and it was just this kind of, like, wild reckoning for me. I had gotten married three months prior, and it was this moment. I remember walking away from that coffee turned dinner, whatever the heck, and I remember thinking, gosh, if there were ever like, a rom com drama ba ba ba, like in me, this would be it. Because I was struck by the multiplicity of lives that we live as women. How, like, even though I was now this freshly minted married woman, the idea that, like, all of your life before didn't exist. Like, somehow now this man has chosen you and you're supposed to go forward into the distance and never look back. Like, no, that life still resides within me. That experience I still carry with me and every other experience. And I will continue to carry this experience into my future life. And I think as women, I was like, it feels taboo, but I think a necessary conversation to open the door to say we're allowed to engage in, to find, delight in, to express, explore all the multiplicity of lives that currently reside within us. And that's what I was trying to capture in the book.
- [52:07]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Wow. Well, knowing that this stemmed from you and a personal experience, it's so powerful in the book. And I don't. I told you an email, like, you're just kind of not. Not even sure. You're, like, rooting for everyone so much. I literally took a moment reading this book and, like, put it on my chest and I was like, wait, who. Who do I want? How do I want this to end? I'm actually not sure it could go.
- [52:31]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, I'm glad you felt that way.
- [52:33]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Oh, my gosh. I feel like that makes it excellent for book club because I feel like people will want to dissect this and the choices that she makes and does that make. Yeah, so where is the guy now?
- [52:47]
Zibby Owens
Tbd. I'm afraid of. I'm afraid of doing one of these talks and I'm gonna like, look in the back and there he's gonna be like. That's how I feel. This story ends. I. Full disclosure. I've never said this. Full disclosure. When press about the book started to come out. Cause I meant we're not on any connected thing. And I was sitting in my office a few months ago, and when the book was announced, And I get one number, one text from a 44 number, which you know is England. And nothing attached, nothing saved. And it just said, now then smiley face. Wish I had gotten my acting chops up for the Netflix adaptation.
- [53:36]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Ooh.
- [53:40]
Zibby Owens
And that was that.
- [53:42]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
How's your husband feeling about the coffee now?
- [53:44]
Zibby Owens
My husband is. Is God's favorite son. He is a soldier. He is. He is really a soldier. And you know what's cool, man? My husband is such a mensch. He is so the person for me and my best friend Eric, who is also a character in the book. You know, I remember telling him about David, my husband. When I knew David was the one, which I knew pretty early on, he said, well, how do you know? I said, and he's a fact of my life. And he said, that doesn't sound romantic. I said, I don't know there's any more romantic I could say. I said, he is a fact of my life. It's like he was always meant to be there. And when everything else feels uncertain, he is the only thing that feels immutable. Like, I can't tell you where I'll be living in 10 years. I can't tell you where I'll be working. I can't tell you what you know, but I can tell you who I'll be with. I can tell you I'll be beside. And that certainty I carry with me and he carries with him. So I don't. You know, I don't. I think that's what being loved in freedom looks like. It's. To be able to write a book about, you know, a dude you had a thing with in college. It's being able to, you know, live your life and go on book tour and talk about it. It's loving you exactly as you are and as you were meant to. To be. And that feeling is my helium. Wow.
- [55:10]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Beautiful. So why include the whole mother? Like, you could have just written that book, but it's so much deeper because you include the mother story and her transcendence and how. And then you have it all coalesce at the end. Why?
- [55:26]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, I mean, it's funny someone said, I know this is a love story, but it really feels like at its core, it's actually a mother daughter story. And I don't disagree with that. I think part of it is where I was in my life writing it. I mean, I had just given birth, and I wrote this in the first year of my daughter's life. And I think our relationship to the people who bore us is so essential. And having a daughter and thinking about my relationship with my mother and. And the things that go unsaid and the things that you want to say and the things that you press at the membranes of saying but don't quite get there, and how we choose to get there I think is really important. And so what I did is I actually sort of, like, inverted my father's story and my mother's story, because it's my father's story that. My father's story that came here from Cuba, and it was his grandmother, actually, who at the time, I think about a woman in the 1800s who was this black woman of mixed race who dared to ask the question, where can I go to become whole? Where can my family go to become whole? And that question haunts me to this day, and it inspires me, it propels me. It's also chilling. I think it's timely. And so when I think about what it took for a woman to carry her children, to bore her children in another land where she thought there could be opportunities, and, like, this is before there were resources for a black. I mean, you were talking, like, if slavery hadn't just ended. Right. Like, to have that courage is so profound to me that I think exploring what would drive a woman to do such a thing and how do you pass that on, especially when, like, you probably have the language to communicate all those reasons to your daughter. And I just thought that was a really worthy portion of this, because I think even our amorous loves are often colored by and shaped by our, you know, familial loves and our experience of the world and what the world tells us about ourselves and what we're told, who we are and who we can't be. Where do we get those messages? It usually starts at home. It's our parents who say, no, reapply, who, you know, try again, and you're worthy. And so I thought that, as a core, was really important.
- [57:54]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
Wow. Morgan, I am so delighted to have had this time with you. Thank you so much. You are so authentic and brilliant. And articulate and soulful. It's been like. I feel like I just had a massage. Thank you so much, Zibby.
- [58:10]
Zibby Owens
Thank you so much. Thank you for coming. Thank you so much.
- [58:13]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
This was so much fun. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram Iby Owens and Spread the Word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
- [58:37]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
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- [58:39]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
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- [58:46]
Zibby Owens
Now even more rewarding. Learn more@chase.com SapphireReserve cards issued by JPMorgan
- [58:50]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.
- [58:52]
Zibby Owens
I'm Dr. Susan Swick, a child psychiatrist and the host of Talk About Able. This season I'm talking with parents and experts about how we tackle the everyday challenges of raising kids. We'll get real about those pebble in the shoe issues we all face as parents and how to build resilience and community through our own experiences. Talk About Able Season 2 from Lemonada Media in partnership with Montage Health and their Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health is out now. Apro vecha los ahoros de Memorial Day in los y compra los vasicos pare lo gar pormenos ahoro centadolares en la
- [59:30]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
parria gas de cuatro que madores charbroil
- [59:32]
Zibby Owens
performance series domestico selectors no estra mejor
- [59:38]
Emma Brody / Morgan Radford
selection estaki and Lows Lowe's Nosotros ayudamos dua horas validos
- [59:46]
Zibby Owens
and Lows punto Com
- [59:47]
Host (Totally Booked with Zibby)
visita to Lowe's Mastercano.