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Did I talk too much?
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Can't I just let it go? I wish I would stop.
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B
I wish I was thinking so much. Take a breath. You're not alone. Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals. Get matched with a therapist online based on your unique needs and get help with everyday struggles like anxiety or managing tough emotions. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel free. Better why Choose a Sleep number Smart Bed Can I make my sight softer? Can I make my sight firmer? Can we sleep cooler?
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Check it out at a Sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today. Hi, this is Zibbee Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram @zbe Owens.
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A
I.
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B
Recorded this episode with Heather Amy O' Neill at our Zibby's Greenwich retreat, which was so much fun and we had a bunch of authors come and Athena Books hosted us for a bunch of talks and then we all had lunch next door. We'll be doing more of these in the future, but was so honored to have Heather there. Let me tell you more about her. Heather Amy o' Neill is the author of the Irish Goodbye, a novel which is the Jenna's Book Club pick. Heather is a poet, a teacher, and the assistant director of the Sackett Street Writers Workshop. She lives in Brooklyn with her wife and two sons. The Irish Goodbye is her first novel. Welcome, Heather. Thanks so much for coming on. Totally booked.
- [02:56]
A
Thanks for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
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B
Congratulations. Since we booked this PODC and everything, the Irish Goodbye became a read with Jenna Pick. So exciting.
- [03:06]
A
Yeah, very exciting.
- [03:07]
B
Well, you must have known about this for a long time.
- [03:09]
A
I found out in May. Whoa. Yeah. So I've been holding it as a secret essentially for five months. My editor, Serena called me and told me, and I was just shocked and thrilled. And I think I screamed. My older son came into the room to make sure everything was okay, and I went to tell him, and Serena was on the other line saying, you can't tell anybody. And I was like, oh, gosh. Okay. So they did. Let me tell.
- [03:32]
B
I'll tell a young child.
- [03:33]
A
That'll be fine. Yeah, he's not that young. He's 18. And would have been thrilled to share it with everyone, but I was allowed to tell my wife. So my wife and I have kind of held this, but I didn't tell. The joke is, and I'm serious, I didn't tell my mom, my sisters, my therapist. I didn't tell anybody. I know I'm very. I'm good with secrets, which, if you've read the book or if you plan to read the book, the sisters have a lot of secrets.
- [03:57]
B
I was going to tie it in. I was going to get there, actually. Tell everybody what your book is about.
- [04:02]
A
My book is about three sisters who are returning to their home on the North Fork of Long Island. Speaking of locations. And when the older sister invites someone from their past to the dinner, the family is forced to confront a tragedy that's haunted them for years.
- [04:20]
B
And are we allowed to know about the tragedy? I know it unfolds. What can we know up front about what happened?
- [04:26]
A
Yeah. So I know it's hard. I was at a reading yesterday last night with one of my teachers and friends, Victoria Riddell and Michael Cunningham, and he was talking about how it's so hard to talk about books without giving away the secrets. But I don't think it's giving too much away to say that the tragedy that they are kind of working through, still working through over a decade later, is the loss of their brother to suicide. And that experience has kind of paralyzed them all in unique ways and is showing up at this particular moment in time over the weekend. And kind of one of the questions of the book is, what contributed to the brothers downward spiral? And that's another tragedy, actually, which you get in the opening pages. But I think a more important question is, are these sisters going to be able to come together and find forgiveness and take off their masks and, you know, really allow for the kind of intimacy and vulnerability that grieving requires, you know, to move through?
- [05:36]
B
So, and there's also a thread of how the tragedy affected each sister and impacted their lives and their development. And you have a quote later on in the book where you are talking about exactly this. It says, Maggie, who's one of the sisters. Maggie wiped the tears from her face and stood irritated. Of course, she said, but maybe. Wait, let me back up. Hold on one sec. Alice passed a tissue to Maggie, then turned to them both. Do you ever think about who we would be if none of this had ever happened? She asked. Maggie wiped the tears from her face and stood irritated. Of course, she said, but maybe we'd be exactly the same. Maybe we've always been this way. We'll never know. And then she goes on to say, I mean, mom let this sit in her closet and haunt her for years when she could have just faced it and maybe even found some healing in it. Instead, she hid it away, stuffed it down, you know, like we all do, like Topher did, until everything implodes. Talk a little bit about that.
- [06:32]
A
Yeah, I think. I don't know if I doubt I'm alone in this, but I have had experiences in my life. We were talking earlier about coming of age, not just being something that happens when you're an adolescent, but kind of throughout your life. And I think I also have sisters, and I've had different moments in my relationship with them where when we go home, we all regress. We all turn into our younger selves, I think, to some degree, but particularly with our siblings. I think there is an experience of meeting each other over and over again and kind of being reminded, like, oh, you're an adult, like out in the world, and, you know, you're not this, you know, young kid or, you know, I'm the youngest. So I'm always thinking of my older sisters. But with these sisters, I. Because I felt like they were really stuck in their grief. I was aware that I didn't want the story itself to be stuck, you know, that I wanted it to be about Them kind of finding this way forward. And sometimes to do that, you do need to be shocked. You know, you do need a stranger from the past to kind of come in and shake things up. And the older sister, Kate, I loved writing her. She is, to me, an interesting character because she's holding a secret that's quite connected to the brother's death. But she's also, at the same time, the character that kind of calls everybody else out, you know, so she is wearing this mask, and she's very protective of her own secret, but she is very willing to say the thing no one else will say. And that does. I mean, it's upsetting to the family and shocking, but it does move things forward, you know, so sometimes that's necessary, I think.
- [08:30]
B
And all three of the sisters really feel responsible in some way, which also highlights. No one is essentially responsible ever for what happens in the world. A suicide, a plane crash is in one of the other books. Like, talk about that a little bit and how they all wrestle with that.
- [08:49]
A
Yeah, I think, you know, so I originally began writing this book about September 11th. My family experienced a lot of personal loss in the terrorist attacks. And I was about six months into writing and writing it, and I just thought, I don't. I can't write about this. It's too personal. I didn't want to spend time in that pain. And I was kind of shortly after that, I was at a event with my wife for the Jed foundation, which is this incredible organization that provides resources for suicide prevention to college campuses.
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B
I've been to an event.
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A
Have you? Yeah.
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B
I know somebody who knew Jed.
- [09:31]
A
Okay.
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B
And now I can't remember who, but.
- [09:33]
A
If you're listening, yeah, it's an extraordinary organization. And I know people who've died by suicide. I think most people know someone who died by suicide. And listening to these stories, I thought, this is something that I have experience with, but I also feel like I can kind of spend the time that's going to be required to really unpack it in the story. And so once I picked that and figured out who the sisters were going to be and how the loss was going to affect them specifically, things kind of took off. But it really began with identifying, like, what is the source of loss here? And I think particularly with suicide, guilt can have. Can play a role in that. But I think also in any tragedy that's. There's always this kind of reverse engineering of, if only I had done that, if only I didn't leave the house then, or if only this happened. I Think that's a really natural part of grief. So, you know, that definitely played an important role.
- [10:35]
B
So we first connected via DMs and Instagram about our experiences with 9 11. Can you share. Do you mind talking a little bit more about it and your family's involvement and just how that affected you and exactly sort of what. What happened with you?
- [10:49]
A
Yeah. My father's company was on the 104th floor of the South Tower. He was out of town, but he lost 66 employees, including a lot of our friends and family. My cousin died, and it was just. It was. It was such a tremendous loss. And I got to see the impact of grief on so many different levels, on the level of community, nationally, on the level of community, certainly on the level of family, friends, and on the individual self, on my father. But I will say, you know, I come from an Irish Catholic family, and humor is a big part of. I don't know if anyone here is Irish, but there you go. So it's, you know, that also was an important part of the experience of grief, was like, how are we going to new start? And so I wanted that to be a part of the story as well, you know, to like, what. What are the elements of resilience for this family? And a lot of that I pulled from the experience I had of that loss.
- [11:58]
B
And how old were you at the time? Not to reveal your answer.
- [12:00]
A
Yeah, no, I was in my early 20s.
- [12:02]
B
Okay. It's hard to get grief on the page and explore it in such a beautiful way, but you absolutely do that in this instance. Tell us a little bit more about all the backstories of the characters and why you chose that. You have Maggie, who's a schoolteacher, you're a teacher. She has just made a mistake. There are lots of secrets and mistakes.
- [12:22]
A
Yeah, lots of mistakes.
- [12:23]
B
Well, maybe I shouldn't say call it a mistake. Why don't you talk about it? She is just. Okay.
- [12:27]
A
Yeah. So Maggie is the. It's three sisters. Maggie is the youngest sister, and she teaches at a boarding school in Vermont, and she's bringing her girlfriend Isabel home for the first time. And her mother is very Catholic. And this is obviously going to be a conflict. And Maggie has recently had an indiscretion with an ex girlfriend, and that's kind of showing up over this weekend. So she's dealing with a lot of things, but to your point, like, yes, it was a mistake, but it was a mistake that taught her something, you know, and there's a lot of mistakes that happen in this book. The original tragedy is kind of a mistake. And one of the main things that I wanted people to take away from the book was to have more forgiveness and more compassion and more understanding that people make mistakes and they shouldn't be defined by their mistakes. I think, you know, I was, I started writing this in 2020 and I just, and I continue to feel so tired of our lack of compassion for each other and, you know, our willingness to like, just publicly call somebody out and that's it. And I was like, God, we're all such nuanced, complex people that if you catch us at any moment in our life, you might, you know, it may not show the best of us. And so much of us, so many of us, all of us have to make mistakes in order to learn something. So rather than be defined by our mistakes, like allow the growth to come, you know, so I was feeling particularly frustrated on a cultural level about, you know, how we were not allowing that for each other. And so that became more and more important to me in the book. And with Maggie, you know, Maggie, this isn't giving much away to say she finds her brother and this is such a traumatic experience for her and again, really kind of paralyzes her in the way of intimacy. And so I think when Isabel comes into her life, she is a character who is able to show Maggie another side of herself. And that's incredibly intimidating to Maggie. And so she, you know, there's some self sabotage there, you know, but she had to do it in order to learn the lesson. And so for me, the real question was, what is going to the be of consequence of that and is Isabel going to forgive her? I also really loved Isabel and I was like, I don't know, Isabelle, do you forgive her? You know, but. And then the middle sister, Alice, is the kind of caretaker of the family. She stayed, she moved back home to the town after her brother died. And she's a mother and her, her husband is a principal at a Catholic school and he's very religious. And Alice is dealing with something that really threatens her marriage and she has to make a choice. And then the oldest sister, Kate, lives in London and she's recently divorced. She's kind of a high power attorney and she is returning for the first time in five years. And she carries this secret about how she feels responsible for her brother's death. And through the process of this weekend, she learns new things and again is able to, you know, her journey is will she be able to confront the mistakes that she made, forgive herself and kind of set herself free.
- [16:04]
B
Today's episode is sponsored by Wayfair. The holiday season is just around the corner and it's time to start getting your spaces ready with Wayfair. I recently just purchased a beautiful blue console table to go behind one of our couches on Wayfair. For such a good deal, it's unbelievable. They have holiday deals on everything and Wayfair's Black Friday sale is the perfect time to score on everything for your home. No matter what your style is. Because Wayfair is the place to shop for all things home. Everything from sofas to spatulas. You name it, they have it and you can get up to 70% off. That's 70% off during Wayfair's Black Friday sale. Wayfair also has styles you can't find anywhere else. No generic things that you've seen everywhere. You can make your home more you get this. It starts October 30th. You can shop Wayfair's can't miss Black Friday deals. Not just on one day, but all day month long. Plus you can sit back and relax because Wayfair has free and easy shipping just in time for the holidays. Again, I am obsessed with everything that I buy from Wayfair, which is probably way too much actually. I also just got desk chairs for my office from Wayfair as well. Wayfair is the go to destination for everything home. You can earn rewards and get the best savings in the neighborhood with Wayfair's loyalty program. And you'll just get a huge selection of home goods from appliances and area rugs to beds and wall art. Did I convince you I am obsessed? Don't miss out on early Black Friday deals. Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for 70% off. That's W A Y F A I R.com sale ends December 7th. Get going. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. As the air turns crisp and the holidays draw near, comfort becomes the best gift of all. Quince delivers layers that last, sweaters, outerwear and everyday essentials that feel luxurious, look timeless and make holiday dressing and gifting effortless. Quince really has it all. $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday wear. Denim that never goes out of style, silk tops and skirts that add polish and down outerwear. Built to to take on the season. Perfect for gifting or upgrading your own wardrobe. Honestly, Quint's Italian wool coats are at the top of my list. The cuts feel designer and the quality rivals high end brands, but without the high end markup. By working directly with ethical top tier factories, Quince skips the middlemen and offers prices 50% less than similar brands. Personally, I just got a new down parka in Storm blue which is so gorgeous and at retail would have been like 10 times the cost. Go check it out. So step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince, perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to Quince.com Zibby for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Zivi Z I B-B-Y to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Zivvy.
- [19:26]
A
Ready to order?
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So let's just get one of everything.
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Yes, chef.
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B
This is so nice. Had a feeling you'd want 3% cash back on dessert. Ooh, tiramisu. Earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with the capital One saver card.
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Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms apply.
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B
See capital1.com for details. So the middle sister really shows us in into the behind the scenes of a long term marriage and what happens when maybe the spark dims and does that mean the relationship is doomed or is this just a phase or what does that mean? I was actually thinking how interesting in fiction that you can take just your one life and slice it and make little pieces of the life in each character to explore so many things at once. It's almost like this, like magic because we dissection, right?
- [20:31]
A
We're different people. We're not different people, but we're confronting different things at different points in our life. We were talking, the panelists were talking earlier about how even sometimes when we don't want to change, kind of like life forces us to change. And that's good. It should. Otherwise, what's the point? So, yeah, so I definitely, with the character of Alice, I really love her marriage to Kyle. You know, I mean, it's not all romance, but it felt really very real to me. And even with the conflict that they're having, I wanted to allow for a lot of compassion for Kyle's perspective, even though that's maybe not a, you know, a perspective That I have. I. I didn't want to render him as wrong. Like, I didn't want there to. The book deals with some pretty controversial topics, but I didn't want or expect for there to be a moral, you know, a tidy moral takeaway. I wanted that nuance to exist within all of the relationships and characters.
- [21:30]
B
I feel like your oldest character really gives us a glimpse of. Into sort of hashtag, mom life.
- [21:35]
A
Yeah.
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B
And how do you deal with small children and not that small, but how do you deal with kids and the stress of that and on a plane and losing your phone and the kids and the whole thing?
- [21:46]
A
That was fun to write.
- [21:47]
B
Yeah.
- [21:49]
A
That pulled a little bit from some of my own experience of traveling with young kids. And again, she was kind of a fun character to write because she doesn't really have a few. And yet it's almost like her lack of filter is its own wall. You know, it's almost like I'll say the thing so that you don't see what I'm not saying about me, about myself. And so it becomes a kind of.
- [22:13]
B
Protective layer and then another sort of slice of the one person. You also have aging parents, and how do you deal with that and talk a little about them?
- [22:25]
A
Well, I think that, you know, one of the things that felt important to me about incorporating the aging parents was, I mean, for myself and so many people I know, that's. That's a very real experience to have. And I'm very close with my parents, and they're very independent, but there's always turns, right, and there's always shifts and developments. And I knew for the. Like at the beginning of the story, the sisters are very separate from each other. They're kind of like in their own echo chamber of the story they're telling themselves. And that's very isolating. And by the end, I wanted them to find connection, not only because I felt like it was important for them as individuals, but also because things are going to happen. More things are going to happen in the family. Like, it doesn't just stop right when you have, like, one tragedy or one experience. Life continues to go on, and life will continue to go on. And so I felt like I wanted to kind of pepper in some concerns about what. What the next chapter of their lives are going to be, but will they be able to be there to support each other through it, you know, which is one of the blessings, I think, of having siblings. I love that if you're lucky enough to, you know, have a close relationship.
- [23:44]
B
And I think it's a way also to have compassion for yourself, to see these different sides of you. I think it would be an interesting exercise for anyone to say, okay, this is one piece of me. This is the frantic mom piece. Like, let me write that character. And let me write the character who's dealing with loss. And let me write this character who has her mom aging or whatever, dad having an issue. Because if you see it in someone else, you're much more likely to say, oh, my gosh, look what she's to do. Going, going through. And then you realize it's all what you're going through. Yeah, I think it would help.
- [24:15]
A
It's so true. I can't tell you how desperate I am for more compassion and empathy in the world. I just. I just. Somebody I was at my launch the other day. Not somebody. My very good friend Leo, who was the person I was in conversation with, asked me, like, what do you think the job of an artist is right now? And obviously, everyone is going to have a different answer and should have a different answer. But. But for me, I really think it is to help us see each other's humanity and to not just see each other's differences, but to see what are the points of connection and what are the ways that we are more alike than different. I mean, it sounds cliche, but it's really lacking in the world right now.
- [25:01]
B
No, it's not cliche. It's actually true. Every relationship could use a little dose of that. I feel like everyone can use a dose of that. You are a teacher. You help other people with their manuscripts, and yet this is your debut novel, You've written poetry. Talk about that. And how did you end up teaching before publishing? And why now? For this book and everything.
- [25:24]
A
So I got my MFA in fiction, but I primarily wrote poetry and have two poetry collections. But I started. I also wrote short stories and essays, and I started teaching at the Sacket Street Writers Workshop and then moved on to editing, working with writers one on one. And a couple of the writers I worked with went on to do very, very well. And then I started to be able to do that more. And I was telling Zivi that I also, you know, I mean, I. It's hard to be a writer. You gotta, like. You have to hustle, you know, like. And I've done a lot of things, and one of the hats I wore was a copywriter and copy editor. And I got to work on some incredible projects, including one for her father, for Schwarzman scholars, which was so thrilling. I mean, it was Just like enormous.
- [26:15]
B
Beautiful book, by the way, on my coffee table.
- [26:18]
A
Amazing. So love it.
- [26:19]
B
You had come over.
- [26:20]
A
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I love it. I love it. So, yeah. So I wore lots of different hats, but over the past decade, I've shifted mostly to editing. You know, one on one editing. And I. Again, not to. Not to sound like a cliche, but even I've had such extraordinary teachers. But my students have definitely been my best teachers because I. The first novel I wrote was many years ago, and. And when I shared it with my mentor's agent, she was like, I really like the writing, but there's no plot here. There's no story. And I had absolutely no idea what she was talking about. I was like, of course there's a story here. What you know. But then as I began to edit and to teach, you begin to see it more and you're like, oh, yes. When there's not a plot, when things are not like, you know, you don't want to turn the pages are a.
- [27:11]
B
Lot better when they have plots.
- [27:12]
A
Yeah, they are. Who knew? They are. So it's something I wish I had learned earlier, but it was something that my students taught me.
- [27:18]
B
So amazing. I just wanted to read one more quote. This is about secrets again. I should have told you about her. This is Maggie and Isabella talking. She said. I should have told you about her, she said, about everything. But I was ashamed and wanted to forget it ever happened. Isabel leaned against the wooden bed frame and picked at the green polish on her nails. That's kind of your family's thing, isn't it? She said. Pretend everything's okay even. Even when it's not. Isn't that every family's thing? Maybe, but it's not my thing, and it doesn't have to be yours. I like that message.
- [27:49]
A
Yeah, I do, too. Again, Isabel was kind of my character to hold a mirror up. And so she was very useful to me, you know, as. Cause I'm sure everyone here has had the experience of when you bring somebody new into a group or your family or place, you suddenly see it through a different lens. And that's what happens with Mackie. When she brings Isabel into that space. She sees her family through this different lens. And it's enlightening. And it reveals both the cracks, but also the beauty. And she can kind of hold it all.
- [28:24]
B
Do you have another project coming out at any point?
- [28:27]
A
I do. I do. I just sold my second book, which is called Winter island. And it is about a high stakes surrogacy where three lives collide, and I'm really excited to write it.
- [28:41]
B
Amazing.
- [28:41]
A
Yeah, I'm about halfway through it, but have to finish.
- [28:44]
B
Not sure about the title.
- [28:46]
A
Oh, yeah, I don't know. Okay.
- [28:49]
B
Winter Island.
- [28:49]
A
I don't know. Well, it's based on another island, but I didn't want to use the exact name, so.
- [28:56]
B
Okay, well, we'll see what happens with this.
- [28:58]
A
Well, and if you have other ideas.
- [28:59]
B
Okay, I'll read it. I'll let you in. Okay. Thank you so much. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
- [29:06]
A
Keep showing up for yourself. Keep showing up for yourself, because then you give yourself a chance, and that's everything.
- [29:12]
B
Amazing. Well, congratulations on all your success on this beautiful book and can't wait to watch you in the world.
- [29:18]
A
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
- [29:20]
B
Pleasure. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read. Read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review. Follow me on Instagram, Iby Owens, and Spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
- [29:44]
A
Ready to order? Yes.
- [29:46]
B
We're earning unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with a Capital One Saver Card. So let's just get one of everything. Everything. Fire everything. The Capital One Saver card is at table 27, and they're earning unlimited 3% cash back.
- [29:59]
A
Yes, chef.
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B
This is so nice. Had a feeling you'd want 3% cash back on dessert. Ooh, tiramisu. Earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with the Capital One Savor card.
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A
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- [30:54]
B
Ladder, you've had your moment. You're linear and one dimensional.
- [30:59]
A
Ambition doesn't just go up anymore. It zigs and zags and squiggles.
- [31:05]
B
We're CEOs, executives, founders. We're advising companies, launching side hustles, taking breaks, defining our next act ambition on our terms. The possibilities are endless, Chief.
- [31:23]
A
Lead on.
- [31:24]
B
Join us@chief.com.