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- [00:01]
Great Wolf Lodge Advertiser
At Great Wolf Lodge, there's adventure for the whole family. You and your pet can splash away in the indoor water park where it's always 84 degrees. There's a wave pool, a lazy river, and a bunch of massive water slides, including ones your family can all enjoy together. They even have adventure packed attractions from the Northern Lights Arcade to delicious dining. And you can't miss the nightly family dance parties. With 23 lodges across the country, you're always only a short drive away from adventure, so bring your pack together at a lodge near you. Learn more@greatwolf.com greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack.
- [00:38]
John Kenney
Let me tell you the God's gonna cut you It's Holy Week in Jerusalem. Crowds welcome Jesus as king. Rebellion is in the air. Jesus operates outside our jurisdiction. Rome will descend on us all. But instead of taking the throne, Jesus turns the tables. My house shall be called the House of Prayer, but you make it a den of thieves. The world will never be the same. Now in Theaters the Chosen Last Supper get your tickets now. If you've been having your McDonald's sausage McMuffin with an iced coffee from somewhere else, now is a great time to reconsider.
- [01:19]
Zibby Owens
In the Pacific Northwest, it's never too cold for an iced coffee in the morning. Grab yourself a medium caramel, French vanilla or classic iced coffee for just $2.29. Warning Beverage may cause craving for muffin or hash browns. Prices and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer or combo meal. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibbeowens. John Kenney is the author of Iceev Called Him Dead A Novel. This is our Zippy publishing title. We are so excited to publish this. It is an indie next pick, which means all the indie bookstores have voted it one of their top picks for the month. It is so amazing and I am just beyond excited. John Kenny is the author now of three novels and four Books of poetry. His first novel, Truth in Advertising, won the Thurber Prize for American Humor. He is also the author of Talk to Me, which received a starred Kirkus review. And now I see you've called in dead. He is the New York Times best selling author of Love Poems for Married people, which if you haven't read, you have to. It is hilarious and inspired a whole series of love poems. He is a longtime contributor to the New Yorker. You guys have to listen to this.
- [03:17]
Interview Host
You have to read this book. It is so good. Welcome John. Thank you so much for coming back on NOW called Totally Booked the Zippy to talk about your latest novel. I see you've called him dead. Congratulations.
- [03:29]
John Kenney
Thank you so much. And thank you for having me.
- [03:31]
Interview Host
Of course, of course. I am also publishing this book with our company and could not be more proud of this and excited and I will never forget reading your very first draft and just sitting there laughing and crying and wow. So to come full circle and have it about to come out and talking to you on the podcast is just amazing. And sitting in the same place and reading and laughing, crying because it was so funny. You're collected poems. So what a wonderful journey with you and your writing.
- [04:00]
John Kenney
Well, it's great to be here and I'm so happy to be publishing with Zibby Books. And thank you for believing in me and all the wonderful writers who you publish. It's not a small thing.
- [04:12]
Interview Host
Oh my gosh. I have to say we have gotten so many emails from booksellers and I'm hoping someone on my team has sent them to you. If not all copy and paste and send them after about how upset obsessed they are with this book.
- [04:24]
John Kenney
Just they haven't sent them and they I I would love to read them. I love more than reading things about myself. So.
- [04:30]
Interview Host
Okay, good. I will, I'll do that after this. Okay, tell listeners about what the premise of the book is.
- [04:37]
John Kenney
Sure, I'm awful at the elevator pitch, but in a sentence, I think the book is about an obituary writer who doesn't know how to live. The slightly longer elevator pitch is Bud Stanley, the hero is an obituary writer for whom life has taken some tough turns. His wife left him as we meet him. His wife has left him two years earlier for another man, a far more interesting man with an English accent. And one evening, as one does after a few glasses of scotch, he writes his own obituary as a joke and then it accidentally publishes it on his company's website. He works for a big news agency like the Associated Press and it Wreaks havoc in his life. The company wants to fire him, but because he's dead to the company's computer system, they can't legally fire a dead person. And so he goes to the wakes and funerals of strangers and with his best friend, a man who is in a wheelchair, and chaos ensues.
- [05:38]
Interview Host
Oh, my gosh. And where did this whole idea come from? What was the germ?
- [05:44]
John Kenney
Yeah, so the book came from something that happened to me in 2019. I'm from a big Boston Irish family. Five brothers. And my brother Tom, a firefighter, had gotten sick, and he had pancreatic cancer. He was at ground zero as a rescue worker. And we think it. It came from the days on the pile, breathing in as many. Many first responders have gotten sick. Anyway, Tom was sick with pancreatic cancer for about five months. So I would go back and forth as my other brothers would. And the last time I saw him, a few weeks before he passed, I got to his house first, and we were chatting. And it's a big, handsome guy, strong as a bull, but he had lost a tremendous amount of weight, but he was still himself and sitting in a lounge chair with a blanket on. And I heard a car come into the driveway, and I looked out the window, and it was my other four brothers. They had come down together. And I turned to Tom and I said, the others are here. And with this sort of Buster Keaton stone face, but with this little smile, sort of dropped his head, and he dropped his arm, and he said, tell them they're too late. And I remember at that moment being so stunned that someone could be that funny, but be that sort of brave in the face of death, that I was like, I want that. And the two emotions that fascinate me are laughing and crying. And so I wanted to write a book about that. And so that's what I tried to do. And, in fact, the book is, as you know, dedicated to my brother Tom. So I'm. I'm very happy about that.
- [07:19]
Interview Host
Oh, and of course, as we're talking, you've just lost another brother of yours, and I am just so sorry your family has had so much loss. I've interviewed another brother of yours who also who lost his son. I just feel like your family is just. It's so sad.
- [07:34]
John Kenney
We make the Kennedy family look lucky. Yeah. So my brother Michael, what a fun podcast for your listeners. My brother Michael, I just got back yesterday from his funeral. A remarkable guy. He had glioblastoma. But as you and I were chatting before we hit the record button. He lived for a year. He was in no pain. And, you know, before we chatted a bit, before you hit record, and one of the things I was saying is that I don't really have a vocabulary for death. I've been to a lot of wakes and funerals, as you have, as your listeners surely have, but I don't. I don't know what to do. I say the cliched things. I'm so sorry. And it's that awkward moment, and you want to hug them, you want to stand there. It's. Maybe it's a Western thing, and maybe other cultures do it differently, but I'm terrified of death. I want to run from it, but I want to stay in the moment, and I want to help. And I'm egotistical about it. So I put myself in the moment. I think, is that going to be me one day? And that thought is too big. And so that's a long way of saying. Over the past year, I got the great privilege of having many conversations with Mike about death, about what he was feeling. And I think death is a great teacher about how to live. And God knows, after this call, I'll get in the car and drive to the supermarket and get annoyed at someone cutting me off or someone taking too long because I'm an idiot. But if we can shorten those little windows where we react that way and think, this is it, 9,000 weeks, and try to enjoy it. Yeah, it's been a fascinating experience trying to write about it. And as I was saying to you, I don't think I know any more, but I've certainly thought a lot about it.
- [09:20]
Interview Host
Well, I don't think there are any right answers, and there is no tried and true vocabulary. And in truth, there's really nothing anybody can say to somebody who's in pain that will make it any better. Right. It's. It's. All it will do is say, okay, this person cares about me, but nothing can take away the pain.
- [09:38]
John Kenney
No, no, I think that's absolutely right. And I. I hope this comes out right. I think the pain that no one can take away stays there always as a reminder. And gift is the wrong word, but it is. It informs, I think, how we should live. I don't want to walk around with unbridled joy, because I don't think that's. I think real joy comes from having that pain there as the counterweight. I don't think I'm being particularly eloquent here, but I think the idea of. Of loss of the fleeting nature of life can inform the beauty of it.
- [10:26]
Interview Host
Well, the good news is I don't think that anyone will accuse you of walking around with unbridled joy.
- [10:31]
John Kenney
I think that's.
- [10:33]
Interview Host
So we're clear. We're good? We're okay?
- [10:34]
John Kenney
Absolutely.
- [10:35]
Interview Host
Yeah, we're okay. The dark humor and this sort of way of thinking about death and the upsides, if you will, and what it can teach you informs the narrative in this book too, where Bud Stanley is a fill in for you or the reader or whoever, and is going about it, trying to find, honestly the meaning of it all, which is impossible to know. But he has to find a way. And by having Bud go through all these phases and him experiencing the wakes and funerals, like all of that, you're trying to wake up the reader too, right? The book is almost like a service call to be like, hey, guys. And it's funny and entertaining and like page turning and there are many characters and the plot is wonderful and the, the dialogue is hilarious and all of it is great, but I feel like the whole thing could be an alarm clock ringing to say, like, don't miss the plot here.
- [11:32]
John Kenney
Yeah, I hope so. I certainly didn't start out trying to write anything that would. I would never try to teach anyone anything. But I think Bud's little journey mirrors my own. I think I was an incredibly emotionally immature young guy. I think I was pretty clueless. I think I remain fairly clueless, but one of the beauties of age is you get a little. Just a little wiser, a little bit more life experience, a little bit more pain, a little bit more wonder. Children are the great teacher. And so, yeah, I mean, the dark humor, I mean, I think I grew up in a family in Boston where, you know, that was the currency sort of the, the comment that was completely inappropriate and yet perfect for the moment. My mom passed away when I was 12, and it was. She had six sons and she was the. She was the sun and the moon and the stars. And I remember we were in the back of the limousine taking us to the, to the cemetery. It was a really cold November day in Boston. And we pull in and we had to wait. There's a long funeral procession because There was a U.S. mail truck, a postal service truck, and my brother Tom, who was lightning quick with humor, said, oh, this must be the dead letter office. And we're all laughing hysterically, but there are people lining the thing. And I said, it starts to move, people are looking in and we're all laughing. So I don't know. I, I abhor the maudlin and self pity and I like laughing in the face of pain.
- [13:24]
Great Wolf Lodge Advertiser
At Great Wolf Lodge, there's adventure for the whole family. You and your pet can splash away in the indoor water park where it's always 84 degrees. There's a wave pool, a lazy river and and a bunch of massive water slides including ones your family can all enjoy together. They even have adventure packed attractions from the Northern Lights arcade to delicious dining. And you can't miss the nightly family dance parties. With 23 lodges across the country, you're always only a short drive away from adventure. So bring your pack together at a lodge near you. Learn more@greatwolf.com greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack.
- [14:01]
John Kenney
Your customers are scrolling past your social ads, using ad blockers and paying for ad free streaming. But when they're listening to a podcast, they're hearing ACAST ads, which are 4.4 times more engaging than with display ads. So if you want real attention, start advertising on podcasts with Acast. Start today at go.acast.com ads.
- [14:28]
Interview Host
There aren't that many choices. We laugh, we cry.
- [14:31]
John Kenney
Yeah.
- [14:32]
Interview Host
We don't get out of bed.
- [14:33]
John Kenney
I mean, yeah, I'll do the crying on my own in my room, but I'd rather make fun of it.
- [14:38]
Interview Host
Stay tuned for the next podcast. Yeah, it's like an Andy Warhol film.
- [14:43]
John Kenney
He just cries for 20 minutes.
- [14:46]
Interview Host
Remind me, what number are you of the six boys?
- [14:48]
John Kenney
I'm the fifth of six and there's a big age gap. The two oldest boys are Irish twins, 11 months apart, as you do and you know, big Irish Catholic family. And yeah, so there's a, there's a 14 year age gap between oldest and youngest. So, you know, the older boys were like parents. Now they were godlike figures. My oldest brother Charlie and, and Mike who just passed away, they were godlike figures to me. Larger than life. Really, really good guys, old school gentlemen who worshiped my mom. And you know, they're the kind of guys who can just walk into any room and talk to anyone and they have a deep, deep empathy and kindness. But they're, they're tough as nails, cops and firefighters. And my oldest brother is a writer and a wonderful one. But it's, you know, losing a parent is such a hard thing. The world shifts on its axis a bit when you lose a sibling. You know, it shifts a bit and it moves you along the escalator a bit and it's sobering.
- [15:55]
Interview Host
I'm so sorry. Well, back to this Book, which of course is about all of this stuff. When you were crafting the narrative, you had so many funny scenes in the workplace. Like, I know one thing is like, this is like the office meets Six Feet under meets whatever. I can't remember the workplace scenes and the workplace camaraderie and all that is such a nice scene. Counterweight to the sort of the grief aspect of it. Talk a little bit about how the mundane and the day to day stuff contrasts with sort of. It's almost like what we have to do to get through every day, right?
- [16:31]
John Kenney
Absolutely. I mean, you know, the wakes and funerals in the book are intense, but I don't know. I mean, we've all worked office jobs and look, the genius of Ricky Gervais's show was that it took something as mundane as most of us. And I think a lot of us on this listening. The 19 people listening to me are better.
- [16:59]
Interview Host
There's more than 19 that you're offending.
- [17:01]
John Kenney
26. We're the lucky ones because we get to do work we choose. Most of the world doesn't get to do work they choose. It's a job, it's a gig, it's paying the rent. Office jobs are like that a lot of times. No one falls into, you know, people fall into these things. And what, our co workers, they're not family. But man, we see these people every day. And Bud, the main character, has this sort of crazy relationship with his officemate Tuan, a Vietnamese immigrant who is. I don't know where Tuan came from, but I love him. I hope that doesn't sound strange. He. He just sort of wrote himself. He's this very tender, troubled, traumatized gay man who had a brutal upbringing. But I love the connection between him and Bud and some of the other office people because, man, they can make or break a day. Right. We rely on these people in small and not so small ways.
- [18:04]
Interview Host
So very true. And what about Bud's relationship with Tim? Because a lot of the book also is about male friendship, which doesn't often get highlighted enough.
- [18:14]
John Kenney
Yeah, it's a. It's a funny thing. My wife has, you know, I have seven, eight, nine really close women friends and they talk a lot and they talk intensely. And I don't want to make it too simplistic, but I. I don't think a lot of men talk that way. You know, in your 20s, you have a million acquaintances, right? You're figuring out and go out and there's lots of acquaintances. I think life gets smaller, right? You have your Family and your work and stuff. Life gets smaller and it also gets larger because of the beauty of family and stuff like that. But I. I only have a few male friends, and I don't see them nearly as much as I would like. And the conversations are. Sometimes it's like you need subtitles or it would be ideal if you could subtitle it because you're saying one thing, but you're meaning another, whereas my. My wife's conversations don't need subtitles. The main character, Bud, moves into an apartment owned by Tim, who had been in a very, very bad accident and is now in a wheelchair. But it's not stopped him. He. He's a Renaissance man. He's. He's fully alive in the world, despite his. His physical challenges. And Bud isn't. Bud is. Bud is pretty wounded and he's sort of. He's on hold in a way. And I think Tim's ability to be fully male, and I guess by that I mean there's this. There's this pull in men to be men, but we also. There is a part of us that isn't maybe sometimes sure how to show another side. Tenderness and empathy and care and love. I think each of us have in ourselves both male and female tendencies. And children bring out in men their best selves, I think often. And I think what Tim is trying to do for Bud is show him that the only fully formed life worth living is when you're willing to be vulnerable and care about someone else and have the courage to show that and put yourself out there. And Bud loves Tim in a way that is really completely pure and platonic and needs him in a way that the best friendships are where you need that person, where a conversation or a phone call or a coffee for an hour. You know, when you have those great conversations with a dear friend and you. You leave them and you're. You're different. You're full and you're happier and your whole mood changes because you connected in a way that was really lovely. At least I've heard those things are possible.
- [21:07]
Interview Host
And I'm like, when was the last time I did that?
- [21:09]
John Kenney
I know, I know. It's. Well, it's funny. I have a really dear friend. He's a. He's a wonderful writer. His name's Bill Landay. He wrote Defending Jacob. And Bill and I met in high school, and he and his wife hosted me the other night. I left the wake, I went back. They had a bottle of wine open. They had made dinner. We sat and talked. And it Made me whole again. It really made me whole again because he knows me and he knows how to fill in the silences or stay silent. And I love him to death and I feel so lucky to have him as a friend. Read Defending Jacob and read it before my book, because it's really. But yeah, I mean, I do love their friendship. And it's funny, all I would say about the writing is for anyone out there wanting to write, there's that wonderful quote from Somerset Mom. He said, there are three rules for writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are. And I think there's this belief that it's all easily mapped out. Forget who it was who said writing is a bit like driving on a country road late at night with only one headlight. I mapped out the book. I mapped out what could happen. But the development of characters, I think, at least for me, is surprising. And I don't know about you, but I find they. It's going to come out wrong, but I find they can speak for themselves. They speak through you. I really believe that. And when you think about them a lot, you'll write dialogue and think, huh, where did that come from? The friendship between Tim and Bud sort of wrote itself. And perhaps it's a latent thing that I desperately want.
- [22:51]
Interview Host
But yeah, when you were writing the book and you mapped it all out, what does it look like when you're writing? Is this like an all day, you go somewhere, you work from nine to five and you're like, this is a writing day. I mean, I know you also contribute to the New Yorker and you're doing, like, short things and long things and this and that. Like, how do you organize your time?
- [23:09]
John Kenney
Yeah, if you saw me during the day, you'd be like, does that guy do anything? I. Aaron Sorkin talked about how 90% of his day looks like he's a guy just watching espn. I don't have a writing schedule. I write all the time. I get up and we get the kids out and I waste some time on emails and I clean the kitchen and I listen to NPR and quickly turn that off because it's depressing. And I read an old New Yorker piece and it's like, you're on a diving board about, like, cold water. And I'm like, psyching myself up to have the courage to jump in because I don't want to, because it's terrifying. But I'm thinking about it all the time. And then I jump in and I might work for 90 minutes, I might work for two hours. And then I'll come back to it later in the day. But I'm old. I go for a walk later in the day and I'm thinking of things and I write stuff down, and I'm always trying to do it. I can't just sit from 9 to 5 and do something. I often write standing like I am now because of my terrible hips. But I think I tend to write very fast, in bursts. I worked in advertising a while back, and it was a great gift in a way, because you have deadlines. So I try to. I try to make unreasonable deadlines for myself. Certain number of pages a week or a month, and that's so helpful. You have to want to do it because it's hard. There are days where you're like, I wish I had a. I wish I was a carpenter. You know? John Key talks about the great New Yorker writer and teacher at Princeton talks about when he was writing, he would take. He took the terry cloth belt from his bathrobe and tied it through a loop in his pants around the chair. So every time he got up from the chair, he, like, couldn't. It's not pleasurable sometimes, but you have to sit there and do the work. And then there are those days that make it all worthwhile where the book speaks to you and you get a scene and you think, oh, why are there tears running down my face? Or, oh, why am I laughing sort of at that? What? What? Why does that little tingle in your palms happen where you think, oh, I think that kind of works. That doesn't suck completely. And so that's a kind of fun thing to chase, too. So. I don't know. I guess. I guess being a writer is like being a golfer or being a runner. It's the thing you do when you have the time. That's how. That's how I spend my days. I like you. The way I sort of think about the world is through words, how I experience the world. I. You know, for some people, it's like this. I. This is the deal I just did. I did this deal. It's an amazing deal. I built this building. I fix this car. I'm a firefighter. I did this shift. I'm not very good at anything, and so what I try to do is put the words down, and that's how I experience the world. And, you know, I. I hope this doesn't sound ridiculous, but I've been very fortunate and written a few books and stuff, but I've never worked harder on anything in my life than this book through with your good help and Kathleen Harris, my editor and our dear friend. It's this. You know, this. This was. It was a joy. And. And, yeah, so we'll see.
- [26:51]
Interview Host
Well, it is so good. It is so, so good. And you should be just enormously proud of it. So congratulations.
- [26:58]
John Kenney
And I feel very lucky that, you know, people have said it, but, Zibby, you're. What you're doing is amazing, and I feel very lucky that you're. You're. You took this book on. So thank you.
- [27:09]
Interview Host
Well, it's quite a vote of confidence that you came to us, so it's amazing. I'm sorry again for all of the stuff, but I am also very grateful because the way you take your loss ends up helping everybody else in a way that people can consume and metabolize and have it change their lives just a little bit. So thank you so much.
- [27:29]
John Kenney
Thank you. I appreciate it.
- [27:31]
Interview Host
Okay.
- [27:31]
Zibby Owens
Thank you for listening to Totally booked with Siby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, Follow me on Instagram ibyohans and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
- [27:55]
John Kenney
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [28:03]
Zibby Owens
Hey, guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where.
- [28:05]
Interview Host
We make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves.
- [28:08]
John Kenney
I'm Paige Desorbo.
- [28:09]
Interview Host
I'm Hannah Berner.
- [28:10]
John Kenney
Welcome to the squad.
- [28:12]
Interview Host
Giggly Squad started on Summer House when we were giggling during an inappropriate time.
- [28:16]
John Kenney
But of course, we can't be managed.
- [28:18]
Interview Host
So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling.
- [28:21]
Zibby Owens
We will make fun of pop culture news.
- [28:23]
John Kenney
Shit.
- [28:23]
Zibby Owens
We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests.
- [28:29]
Interview Host
Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:34]
John Kenney
Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.