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- [00:00]
Penn Holderness
Hi, this is Penn and Kim Holderness from the Laugh Lines podcast.
- [00:03]
Kim Holderness
If you're like me, buying anything turns into a nightmare research spiral. But listen, if you're trying to upgrade your phone, I'm about to save you from yourself. Because right now you can get the new iPhone 16e with Apple Intelligence when you switch at your nearest boost mobile store.
- [00:20]
Penn Holderness
That is a brand spanking new iPhone 16e for the incredible price of 49.99. Plus you're getting all the latest Apple Intelligence features like Cleanup, which removes distraction from with just a tap.
- [00:33]
Kim Holderness
Visit your nearest Boost mobile store for full offer details. Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later. Restrictions apply.
- [00:42]
Penn Holderness
I'mma put you on Nephew all right.
- [00:44]
Kim Holderness
Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, Ms.
- [00:47]
Penn Holderness
I've been hitting up McDonald's for years now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back. Death, Sex and Money these are some of the hardest things for people to talk about, but on the award winning podcast, Death, Sex and Money host Anna Sale, writer and Totally Booked podcast guest, helps you realize how expansive stories around these three topics can be. Which is why I can't recommend the show enough. Produced by Slate, Death, Sex and Money dives into the big questions and difficult choices that are often left out of polite conversation. Not to mention Anna interviews a range of guests from famous names and experts to everyday people shining a light on the parts of life that can make us feel bewildered or alone, like motherhood and caretaking, addiction and so much more. So go ahead, follow and listen to Death, Sex and Money wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibeowens Kate/ is the author of Gracie Harris Is Under Construction A Novel. Kate is a Chapel Hill, North Carolina based debut novelist who enjoys creating and consuming stories about dynamic women, unexpected relationships and the complexity that comes with entering midlife she has lived in Italy, run a business, and even appeared on an episode of House Hunters International. One of her favorite two truths and a lie facts. During her four years abroad in the early 2010s, Kate operated a popular travel blog and contributed guides to the much beloved design sponge. Kate is currently the assistant Vice chancellor for IT at the University of North Carolina and is mildly obsessed with college towns and the creative energy they produce. Welcome, Kate. Thanks for coming on. Totally Booked to talk about Gracie Harris is under Construction a novel. Katie, congrats.
- [03:18]
Kim Holderness
Thank you. So happy to be here.
- [03:21]
Penn Holderness
So this is so crazy. You came on our retreat in Palm Springs and happened to mention. You're like, oh, yeah, actually I wrote a book and actually the book is coming out. And I was like, oh, that's so nice for you. You're like, no, it's like coming out in a big way from Dutton and da da da and wme. And I was like, oh, okay. So I couldn't wait to read it. And now I read it and I was like, oh my gosh, I love your book.
- [03:42]
Kim Holderness
Love, love, love. Thank you.
- [03:44]
Penn Holderness
And you were just like bopping along like any other retreater at one of our events. Not to say there's anything wrong with the retreaters, but just like, you're a fabulous writer. Oh my gosh.
- [03:53]
Kim Holderness
Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. That means so much to me.
- [03:57]
Penn Holderness
Okay, tell everybody what your book is about.
- [03:59]
Kim Holderness
Oh, my goodness. So my novel tells the story of Gracie Harris. She's a 40 year old mother of two whose entire existence is kind of rocked first by the unexpected and tragic death of her husband Ben, and and then by this new version of her life that sort of quickly emerges when she writes a modern love essay and it goes completely viral and she finds accidental Internet fame, which I think happens a lot to people these days. And she sort of has to navigate that fame in tandem with her very real, very visceral grief over this huge, sudden loss that she's had. And readers meet Gracie, who a little over a year after this has all happened, when she has sort of dealt with everything and nothing as it relates to her grief. And she's had real life to contend with. And I think a lot of parents who read this novel will relate to, you know, she's raising her kids, she's doing her real job, she's writing this column that she has, and she's just trying to keep the train on the tracks. And she gets this great opportunity for a summer where she can sort of put real life to the side And. And try out something new. And that is really what the novel's about, is her figuring out who she is and who she can be. And there's a great love story mixed in all of it, I think, that really propels her forward. It's this second chance at love that makes her really work through some of the things that she hasn't quite dealt with yet. And I just. I wanted to write a book that really explores the way love can break you and also sort of rebuild you. And I think that's hopefully what I've done with this book. Wow.
- [05:44]
Penn Holderness
Well, this is also so meta to be interviewing you about this, because such a big part of the book is Gracie preparing for interviews with Josh as he asks her all these questions and she answers them, which, P.S. is a really clever device in fiction, Right. To get to hear a backstory without saying it. But anyway, so she's prepping the whole time with interview questions, and I'm like, wait, but now this is one of those interviews that Gracie would do at noon. And now I'm the interviewer, and you're representing Gracie. I don't know. Very cool.
- [06:17]
Kim Holderness
I know it. It's so meta. I was like, oh, my gosh. I hope. Because, of course, the opening scene is she sort of just melts down. Right? And I was like, I just have to make sure this doesn't happen at any point so I don't go viral when I do it. When I do it anymore.
- [06:30]
Penn Holderness
No, no, no, you're not going to. And in truth, she felt like she did a horrible job, but there was a lot of humanity in that moment and a lot of people relating to the meltdown that she had. Because, of course, I was trying to read through the lines of the acknowledgments because I was like, you must have lost your husband, but it looks like you didn't. But you must have. How are you tapping into this? What loss have you had? Because you write about grief in a way that is so real that. Where is this coming from?
- [07:05]
Kim Holderness
Oh, my goodness. So anyone who's read the book asks me, like, a flavor of that question, and it's. On one hand, it's really flattering because I haven't had a loss of this magnitude. What I've had is lots of, like, little loss. So, like, I've lost a parent. Of have. That's not a little loss. I know. Well, compared to little. You lost a parent. I know. And I just think it's what I wanted to do is tap into, like, all the things that get said and unsaid when you have grief. Right? Because with grief, I always feel like there's this universality to it. Like everyone who walks the planet is going to feel some measure of grief at some point and maybe even a cataclysmic loss. And I think there's just an innate understanding we all have with grief in a certain way. But grief is also extremely personal and very individual. And I, and I wanted to make sure in this novel, I tapped into that because it's the reason why some people, you can be in the same house as someone who's had the same loss as you and have wildly different experiences with grief. Right. Because there are these universal elements, these very personal elements, and I wanted to tap into that. You know, I lost my, my father seven years ago. And just seeing the way that everyone in the family experienced it very differently and a lot of it was based on the relationship they had with him, it's just so, so, so interesting to me. And I think grief, it's something Josh says later in the book too. Grief isn't just losing people through death. Like, there are a lot of ways we experience grief in life. And so I've also seen a lot of that, like non death related grief, like through, you know, friends who have been through really hard things, really hard divorces, really, just a lot of really tough stuff that I think tends to happen in midlife. And so just tapping into that as well.
- [08:56]
Penn Holderness
Oh, my gosh. I also, by the way, I thought you were like 25 years old. Oh, my goodness. Thank you.
- [09:01]
Kim Holderness
We're best friends now. I'm gonna just call it.
- [09:03]
Penn Holderness
I know. I'm like, wait, I could have sworn that girl was so young on the retreat. But anyway. Oh, my gosh. Okay. So in addition to everything Gracie's going through, she is also writing a memoir and you are writing a novel. So just to add another meta level. And she is making time for writing. She's going to the coffee shop chatting with like, she's trying to get her words in. She's doing publicity for the book. So there is very much an insider writer thing. But yet this is your debut novel. So how are you getting all of that in here?
- [09:40]
Kim Holderness
I was just sort of imagining what it would be like. And it's been very interesting for me now to see the parts where I was like, oh, yeah, I totally got that right. Oh, and this happens a little differently, or at least it is for me, right? In this experience. I think also because I had never been through it before, I actually think that really was helpful to me in imagining what it would be like for Gracie. Right. Because she's going through it all for the first time. It's sort of this new adventure for her, and she has her agent hand holding her through it all, like, sort of shepherding her through the process. But it was also imagining, because my writing process is different than Gracie's. Right. So trying to think through, like, what it would be like if I had an endless summer just to write or if I sort of got to reorient my mind, if I was trying to tell my own story as opposed to a fictional story, too. Because I think one thing Gracie struggles with is just how much of herself to share. She wants to be authentic, and she wants to share what's really happening in her life and what she's been through. But you can. The reader knows early on that she's also deeply trying to protect herself as well.
- [10:49]
Penn Holderness
And she has the essays every two weeks. I don't know. I feel like I was overwhelmed.
- [10:53]
Kim Holderness
Like, I'm writing it because I need her to feel overwhelmed. Right. Because I think I want people to relate to that overwhelm as well. Because every mom I know is operating at, like, you know, they're one additional thing from just cracking. Right. And so I really wanted to, like, bring that to the table as well.
- [11:11]
Penn Holderness
Oh, my gosh. Well, you have so accurately captured this life, the fears, how you have to bring in your own emotions. And sometimes Gracie has to make time for that, even if it's not in the plan. Like the things that seep in and when and all of that. And then you also do such a lovely job of introducing us to this fictitious town of Canopy and small town life and what that's like and encouraging others to take an interest in other people, which is also a really beautiful thing in the book. And I know it's Josh encouraging Gracie, but it's really you, Kate, encouraging the reader to, like, ask a question of the woman in the coffee shop and teaching us all the art of small talk. Talk a little bit about that.
- [12:02]
Kim Holderness
Oh, my goodness. So I love small towns, and I think that small towns can get just a bad reputation, right? Oh, nothing happens in small towns. And Canopy is this amalgamation of probably five or six different very real places that exist in western North Carolina. I didn't want to set the novel somewhere real. I wanted to, you know, be able to create my own little town. But those places are real, and the people are just so friendly. I feel like I engage on a human level when I'm in places like that, far more than I ever do when I'm in, like, a big city or even here in Chapel Hill, where I'm, you know, sitting today. I think there's just a friendliness and innate curiosity when you get to a smaller town. And I just wanted to capture that magic because I feel like when I go spend times in place time and places like that, that I take a deep breath, I sort of get this big exhale. And I think a lot of people would convey that as well. But I wanted the town to feel just some. Like, I wanted you to want to go there. Be like, I need to go.
- [13:13]
Penn Holderness
I need to go. And I need to buy a house there and take a renovation project. I don't need Josh, but, you know, I need the. I need the reboot of that experience. And she's learned so much about herself, and it's literally and emotionally a rebuilding for her. It's a. You know, I love your title now. It has a thousand meanings, but when, like, taking this old house and restoring it and making it her own and all of that, it just has so many layers. And the house itself, I feel like I could visualize when she's like, I think this wall could use wallpaper. I'm like, yes, it could. I was thinking the same thing. Yeah.
- [13:54]
Kim Holderness
The sense that she, for the first time in a long time, is essentially making her own decisions. And I think that is. That is a really unique feeling. Like, even as I was writing it, I was like, what would it feel like if I didn't have someone to, like, bounce my ideas off of all the time? Because I've been married for, like, 15 years, you know, what would it. What would it be like? And just. I love the house. I love the idea that also the set, even though it's known to her, the setting is fresh. It allows her to step outside of her comfort zone. Because for her, you know, of course, I've said it in Chapel Hill. Like, she lives in Chapel Hill. That has been her familiar territory, but it's also been a cocoon. Right. She's been protected there in a way that's different, I think, than how she's sort of protected in Canopy.
- [14:46]
Penn Holderness
And there's also. Which you have the kids feel as well. Sometimes you don't want to be the one known as the person who's grieving, that you don't want everyone to meet you with a compassionate look on a day that maybe you just want to run in and grab a muffin, and you don't want to Think about it or talk about it, you just want to live. And sometimes when you've had a very public loss and or written about it very publicly, which Gracie has done, you don't have the luxury to just be anonymous. Talk a little bit about that. And when you had the loss of your dad, and I'm so, so sorry to have to hear that, is that something you felt like in your town was like, where is that? Tell me about that.
- [15:23]
Kim Holderness
Oh, my gosh. I remember feeling that in the workplace. So, like, it's kind of like everyone knows the worst thing that's happened to you and it's just this unspoken thing, or people stumble and they'll say things and you know, everyone has good intentions, and then before you know it, you're sort of like managing the emotions of other people. It's like, oh, no, no, it's okay. I'm doing well and you're not. Right. Because you're just. You're falling apart on the inside. You're trying to go through life. And so I wanted to capture that and imagine what it would be like for Gracie, which is sort of this, like, next level loss. You know, she's lost her husband. But then I really love that you've pointed out the kids experience too. Right. Because I think as a mom, you're imagining, like, her. What. What she needs to. To deal with is always gonna be second to her kids. Like, you can just feel that in the novel. Like, she has prioritized what her kids need to process and go through, and she just loves them so much. Right. And so, you know, her grief is always second to it, but just this idea that her hometown or where she lives has protected her, but it's also in some ways suffocated her. Like, you can feel it. Like she's just ready to go somewhere new. And I think is hesitant at first in Canopy for too many people to know her too well. Right. Because when she has that air of anonymity at first, yeah, they sort of know she knows, like the grief lady. Right. Because of course, James has, like, helped make sure everyone know who she is. But it's different. It's not personal. And I think there's a freedom in that that really helps her. There's. There's something to be said for just getting somewhere new where you can say, oh, I've recently, you know, lost someone, but there's no connection to the someone. Right. And there's no connection to you. And I think that's. That's given her at least a chance for A deep breath.
- [17:22]
Penn Holderness
Hi, this is Penn and Kim Holderness from the Laugh Lines podcast.
- [17:26]
Kim Holderness
If you're like me, buying anything turns into a nightmare research spiral. But listen, if you're trying to upgrade your phone, I'm about to save you from yourself. Because right now you can get the new iPhone 16e with Apple Intelligence when you switch at your nearest boost mobile store.
- [17:42]
Penn Holderness
That is a brand spanking new iPhone 16e for the incredible price of 49.99. Plus you're getting all the latest Apple Intelligence features like cleanup, which removes distraction from photos with just a tap.
- [17:55]
Kim Holderness
Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store for full offer details. Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later. Restrictions apply.
- [18:05]
Penn Holderness
Say hello to Samantha.
- [18:06]
Kim Holderness
Hi there.
- [18:07]
Penn Holderness
Samantha built a SaaS platform that helps small businesses manage their workflow. But she needed a smarter way to reach decision makers. That's where Acast came in.
- [18:15]
Kim Holderness
They helped me produce a professional audio ad which played to business owners and ops leads using their audience attributes targeting tools. Suddenly my platform was showing up in the ears of the exact people I needed to reach.
- [18:26]
Penn Holderness
Now that's streamlined marketing. Samantha, what's your tip for scaling smart? Solve a real problem and make sure.
- [18:32]
Kim Holderness
The right people hear about it.
- [18:34]
Penn Holderness
Promote your business with podcast ads on Acast. Get started@go.acast.com advertise. So wait, Kate, take me back in your own life. Like, how did you become a writer? Where did this come from? Now I'm like self conscious because some of the interviewers, you're like, they jumped around so much. I'm like, do I jump around in my questions? I don't know, like, are these really like non sequiturs? I have to be careful. But anyway.
- [19:01]
Kim Holderness
Oh, it's so funny.
- [19:02]
Penn Holderness
Tell me about your life and how you became an author.
- [19:05]
Kim Holderness
Oh, goodness. So I've sort of been a writer my whole life. It's just looked a little different. So when I was younger, so high school, college, I was really into journalism. So my, my degree is in journalism and for the longest time I wanted to be a journalist. And then I got to College in Washington D.C. and I sort of looked around and I realized that even at the time in, you know, 2002, journalism was like a prestige career. And I had grown up in a blue collar environment. I had seen people sort of, you know, work paycheck to paycheck and I was like, oh, I need to make sure I can pay bills in my life. So I took my journalism degree and went into marketing and public relations, which then turned into it like that jump was with digital marketing, and then just had this. I've had this really wonderful career and in the IT space, but I've never stopped writing throughout. So for four of those years, my husband and I lived abroad in Italy, and I had a pretty widely read blog that I wrote while we were there. And that was just more like sharing our experiences and then even my job, like, I still communicate a lot, even though it's an IT job. So it's always been there. But I will say, writing a novel was not like a bucket list thing for. For me, the idea sort of forced itself on me. Like, Gracie's story just came to me and it percolated in my brain for months before I was like, oh, I think. I think I should try to write something. And so that's how we got here. But I've always, you know, I have training in writing, so when I finally decided to try it, it wasn't like I was starting from zero, But I had also never tried to write anything over a short story before.
- [20:49]
Penn Holderness
Well, then that all makes sense, too, because of all the journalists in the book and her writing in the New York Times and this. Did you have to get approval from the New York Times, by the way, for this fictitious column?
- [20:59]
Kim Holderness
I think we did. And actually, initially I had it as. I mean, anyone who's ever read Modern Love would have been like, oh, that's just a placeholder for Modern Love. And I remember my editor saying, is this supposed to be Modern Love in the New York Times? And I was like, yeah. And she said, I think we can use this. And so we were able to. Yeah. Which I think is so much better because I do think Modern Love is such a cultural touch point that it instantly. For anyone who regularly or even occasionally reads it, when you learn that's what Gracie wrote, it sort of just clicks in your mind. I think you have a better picture of the significance of what she's written.
- [21:41]
Penn Holderness
And I also love that Gracie is unapologetically attractive. Like, she has a moment where she's like, and I knew my butt looked really good. And I'm like, you know what? Bravo. Because nobody ever not. I shouldn't say nobody ever. It's so rare to find someone who feels great about their body as a protagonist of a novel. Tell me about that.
- [22:06]
Kim Holderness
Yeah, so part of that was. It was really important to me that it was clear to the reader that her marriage with Ben was very healthy. Like, she had a great marriage. Right. And I think part of that is she sort of grown up with him. Right. And I mean, so I met my husband in college, right. And like, your. Your bodies change, right? Your. Your appearance has changed. She's had children, but she has. In a healthy marriage where she has felt so validated, right. And loved. And I think she has a confidence that comes from having a great partner. And I really wanted to capture that. So when she goes. When she starts dating again, right? This. She's out there and she's getting dates. Like, she's going. Even though she hates it at first. Right. You know, she's having this experience of dating and meeting people and trying to decide, like, what is her type of. Right. Like she's. Her. Her type is not the same as it was when she was, you know, 18 years old. Right. And yeah, just. I think I struggle when I read books and there's like a lot of body hatred, right. It's just a struggle point for me. And I wanted. Gracie is broken in a lot of ways, and I needed her to have confidence in. In this other area of her life. Right. Like, it. It just felt like if she was going to be broken, mind, body and spirit, it was going to be a lot. Right.
- [23:37]
Penn Holderness
Well, now I want to read her memoir. Yeah. Are you gonna write that as a no? Like, could you possibly. I mean, you kind of did already, like, by writing this novel. It's, you know, but I feel like now you need to like, write the fictitious memoir in a way.
- [23:51]
Kim Holderness
No, it's. There was a discussion with my editor at one point of. Should we include the whole prologue? So this idea that she writes this letter.
- [24:02]
Penn Holderness
Yep.
- [24:03]
Kim Holderness
And I have it written. So my editor said to me, you know, it'll be a great exercise, right? Like, you'll get a lot of her internal experience. It'll help. It'll help with some of the edits we were working on. But I really love the idea of the reader imagining it.
- [24:18]
Penn Holderness
That's true. Because we basically know. I mean, we basically have. I know, I know. It just still. Oh, my God. I know.
- [24:25]
Kim Holderness
But you want to read it. And again, it's so important because by the end of the book, if you want to read her memoir, then I feel like I've done a good job of making you understand why everyone loves her, right? Why everyone's reading her essays, why she's got so many pre orders of her book. Right. Because she just seems so engaging and wonderful.
- [24:48]
Penn Holderness
I love Gracie. I want to be friends with Gracie. I am a big fan and I want you to now write another novel about her. So what are you going to. What's the plan.
- [24:58]
Kim Holderness
So I'm writing a second book. It's a complete standalone. So for now, and I've thought about it, I was like, you know, I just feel like there could be so much more to Gracie and Josh or even a bit of before. Right. Of Gracie's life for sure. But no, I'm writing a second novel. I'm in developmental edits right now. I love writing books. The editing stage is so much harder for me.
- [25:21]
Penn Holderness
Yeah, it's terrible. It's the worst. Oh my gosh. I hate it so much. Yeah.
- [25:25]
Kim Holderness
But I'm working my way through it. I was just telling my husband yesterday, I was like, I'm just in the really sticky part of it. And you get through that. Right. Like you, you just, you just have to power your way through it. But the second novel, I'm in love with this concept too. I think you're going to love the characters.
- [25:41]
Penn Holderness
Can you say anything?
- [25:43]
Kim Holderness
Yeah. So it is a story. It's a platonic love story and a romantic love story. The platonic love story is between. It's an intergenerational love story about two women who meet each other on a plane. It's like the opposite of a meet cute. It's a meet terrible. And you know, this 38 year old woman and the 72 year old woman just get in a fight on a plane and develop this accidental friendship as a result. And the main character, Andy, becomes deeply wrapped up in this woman's life, falls in love with one of her children. But it's very complicated. It's all very complicated with the love story. Both love stories actually, the platonic one and the romantic one. And it's. I love intergenerational stories where we're just so caught up in how we do or don't get along. And I also just love stories, writing them and reading them of women at a crossroads. Like women who are at a really important inflection point because I think we're our most creative selves when we're sort of forced to those points. So I think any book I write is gonna. Is gonna be a woman at a crossroads for sure.
- [26:52]
Penn Holderness
Love it. Oh my gosh. Well, Gracie, thank you so much. Gracie, thank you so much. Kate, thank you so much too. I'm really like thanking Gracie, but I am a huge fan and I can't wait for this book. When is this book coming out?
- [27:06]
Kim Holderness
July 29th.
- [27:07]
Penn Holderness
July 29th. Oh my gosh. Okay. So soon so we have time to. Well, I'll delete this part because I should have known that. But anyway, I'm so excited for you and the book and I will be cheering you all summer long.
- [27:20]
Kim Holderness
Oh, thank you. It feels crazy that we're finally here, what, two months. Two months away. Two months from tomorrow, so. I can't believe it.
- [27:29]
Penn Holderness
Oh, my gosh.
- [27:30]
Kim Holderness
I just want to thank you. You know, it's. You know, in the beginning, you mentioned the reading retreat, and I just remember have just loving being in Palm Springs around people who loved books, like, because there were other writers there, people who just love reading. It was. I had just signed my book deal. Like, it was just the best feeling. Right? Like, it just felt so good.
- [27:52]
Penn Holderness
Oh, yeah. I'm so glad. Well, I'm glad you were there and that our paths crossed in that way and. Yeah. Cheering you on.
- [28:00]
Kim Holderness
Yeah. Thank you. And I'll see you next week. I'm actually going to be at the.
- [28:03]
Penn Holderness
Oh, yay. Oh, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, great.
- [28:05]
Kim Holderness
I look for any excuse to fly up to New York because I have so many girlfriends there. So I just. So I'll see you soon.
- [28:11]
Penn Holderness
Okay, great. I'll see you soon.
- [28:12]
Kim Holderness
Thanks, Siby. Bye.
- [28:14]
Penn Holderness
Thank you for listening to Totally booked with Siby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
- [28:38]
Kim Holderness
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hi, I'm Cara Berry, host of Everyone's Business But Mine.
- [28:50]
Penn Holderness
If you don't know me, think of.
- [28:51]
Kim Holderness
Me as your new friend and fellow busybody. And as I talk about everything under the pop culture sun, from the best way to detect a celebrity breakup or pregnancy to recapping your favorite reality TV shows from the housewives cinematic universe, welcome to Plathville, Summer House, Sister Wives, and so much more. Check out Everyone's Business but Mine. Airing multiple times a week everywhere you.
- [29:16]
Penn Holderness
Listen to podcasts.
- [29:20]
Kim Holderness
Acast helps creators launch.
- [29:22]
Penn Holderness
Grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [29:25]
Kim Holderness
Acast. Com.