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- [00:00]
Zibby Owens
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- [00:42]
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- [01:45]
Zibby Owens
Today's episode has been sponsored by Digipod. As someone who's passionate about books and authors, I'm always excited to share resources that can help bring your stories to life. That's why I am thrilled to tell you about Digipod, a print on demand company that truly understands what authors need to make that happen. Here's what I love about digipot. They don't just print your books and send you on your way. Their team holds your hand throughout the entire process with incredible customer service. They deliver professional grade printing quality, consistently beat their competitors turnaround times, and they can handle rush orders. They simplify the whole printing process and make it incredibly easy. To achieve your vision for your books, head over to digipod zibby that's-I G-G-Y-P o d.com Zybee set up a free 15 minute printing consultation and get 10% off your first print order. You'll talk with their experts who will walk you through exactly how to set up your print job and answer all your questions. And by the way, I've seen the books and they are amazing looking. If you've been thinking about printing your book. This is the support you want. Again, that's digipod.com zibby for your free consultation. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books in my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibbeowensk Kate Price is the author of this Happened to A Reckoning. Kate is an Associate Research Scientist at the Wellesley Centers for Women, a gender based research institute at Wellesley College. She is also a Senior Research Scholar at the Global association of Human Trafficking Scholars, an advisor for the national center for Missing and Exploited Children's Child Sex Trafficking expert, working group and Global platform for Child Exploitation Policy, and an alumni Scholar at the Brandeis University Women's Studies Research Center. An internationally recognized child sex trafficking expert and lecturer, Price's research has influenced the passage of state level children's human rights legislation. Price is the recipient of a My Life, My Choice Beacon of Light Award, a Conrad N. Hilton Humanitarian Prize Medal, a Mariam K. Chamberlain Dissertation Award from the International Centers for Research on Women, and an American association of University Women Dissertation Fellowship. She has worked extensively with trauma pioneers Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, author of the New York Times bestselling book the Body Keeps the Score, in which Price is featured, and Dr. Judith Herrmann. Price received her MA in gender and Cultural Studies from Simmons College and earned her PhD in Sociology from the University of Massachusetts, Boston. She lives in Massachusetts with her family. Welcome Kate, thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked with Sivvy to talk about this Happened to a Memoir. Congratulations.
- [05:07]
Kate Price
Thank you so much and thanks for having me.
- [05:09]
Zibby Owens
It's my pleasure. Powerful does not begin to describe this book. This is like a gut punch. And you are such a good writer and your story is just unreal. Really unbelievable. What you got through yourself and the way that you processed it and wrote about it and shared it with us. It's like genius. So thank you. Thank you for writing it. And my heart just like goes out.
- [05:36]
Kate Price
To you in every way that's very kind. Thank you for your kind words.
- [05:39]
Zibby Owens
Why don't you tell listeners what the book is about?
- [05:42]
Kate Price
Okay. So the book is really ultimately about healing and truth from. My father sexually abused me from a very early age until age 12 when he left our home. And during that time, he also sold me for sex to truckers along Route 80, an interstate that runs very near my childhood home in northern Appalachia. So the book really is about me grappling one, surviving that, and then two, grappling with my memory and ultimately healing.
- [06:19]
Zibby Owens
Kate, how can you just sit and calmly say that? And you have to say it over and over again doing publicity for this book. How are you dealing with that?
- [06:26]
Kate Price
I say it all of the time because I'm actually a researcher. That's my area of study is child sex trafficking, particularly domestically, but also internationally, I think for multitude of reasons. I meditate every day. Wellness is a huge part of my life. And managing my PTSD. I was also extraordinarily lucky to meet Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, the author of the Body Keeps the Score, of which I am in. He's been my therapist for over, you know, for about 30 years now. We met when I was working at Harvard University, and my therapist at the time saw him speak when I was in my mid-20s and when I was really just starting to dive into all of this. And I became one of his most successful patients with EMDR when that was still a very new and controversial modality. So he helped save my life. You know, he's been very much of a guide for me. And we. We joke that I don't see him that often now, but I joke. We joke that we are both the head of each other's mutual admiration society.
- [07:38]
Zibby Owens
Aw, that's so sweet. And you wrote in detail about all of your sessions with him and how that all happened. And I found that absolutely fascinating. How. How did your body keep the score?
- [07:49]
Kate Price
How did my body. First, I just want to say I was having those sessions, and there was very intentional for me because one of the primary reasons I wrote this book was when I was healing from all of this, I needed a roadmap. And this was all so new and overwhelming and what was going on. And I didn't have a roadmap, and I needed that. So I wanted to. And people not just healing from sexual trauma, but really any trauma. So I wanted to be very transparent. And so in consort with Bessel, I wrote those, and he signed off on them, you know, and so it was very much of a I see it as a public service announcement in a way. And then in terms of how my body kept the score was throughout childhood, I would pass the rest area where I was being. Where I was being trafficked. I would. And I would just feel weird, you know, and it was. I just didn't know. But I was just in survival mode, you know, at that point. And then I would have flashbacks and just various points. And so much of this was so spot on developmentally, you know, in adolescence, in my teens, in my 20s, I was suicidal, you know, in my. In my teens and early 20s, of course, you know, because, like, I have no idea what's happening. But then, really, once I moved to Boston and Cambridge in 12 step programs is called the Geographical Cure. It's like you're getting. I had that distance, physical and increasing emotional distance, and my body just felt safe, and I felt safe for the first time. I started working at Harvard. My academic career was really starting, and I was just building my own life, and it all came flooding out because it was safe and it was terrifying. And yet by that time, I really had the scaffolding built around me that when all of that happened, I could pick up the phone, you know, and say, I'm in danger. And then had a plan, you know, with Bessel, but also with my other therapist. And I still have those things, you know, to a degree, in terms of just, you know, it's in the book. My husband and I call it keep management Skills. You know, it's like so much of it is how to manage. I still just have to manage my ptsd, you know, every single day.
- [10:09]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh. Well, the way that you wrote about all of this and took us with you and just to back up with the abuse, for listeners who aren't aware your dad would also inject you or have you drink medicine that at the end of the book, you weren't exactly sure still what it was, we don't know. But something that he found perhaps is his. He worked in a hospital, something he managed to procure that made you black out and, you know, pass out, theoretically, the whole time, you're not even sure. So that is how he was able. And you write in the book about him waking up in the morning in your nightgown with, like, no underwear. Oh, my gosh, Kate. It was just because you were so young. And I hate. I don't want to, like, you know, over dramatize because this is your life and, you know, you wrote about it very factually and whatever it's Just as a reader. And I'm sure you will experience this time and again like it is. The reader is going to be processing and reflecting it back to you sort of the way. So I'm sure you're ready for that. But anyway, I'm falling into that. I'm falling into that camp. One of the things that you wrote about which struck a chord with me, we were joking ahead of this about, like, what in our lives make us so similar. But you wrote about Judy Blume and how those books got you through. Can I just read this little passage you wrote about that?
- [11:33]
Kate Price
Absolutely.
- [11:34]
Zibby Owens
Okay. You said, I found. Well, I said, okay. You wrote, this is chapter 11. The idea of sex, intimacy and the emotions around them are confusing for any adolescent. In my case, my mind dissolved into a morass around these topics. I couldn't square the explicit pornographic images my father gleefully showed me in private with the anatomical health films about puberty. My classmates and I watched red faced, in embarrassed silence. It felt shameful to view either of these. Yet I wasn't exactly sure why. To bridge the gap, I, like millions of other kids, discovered Judy Blume. Her books didn't just comfort me, they helped keep me alive and were among the few things that kept me going. I found relief and reassurance in the way she celebrated life's messiness and addressed unspeakable topics such as depression, hormones, sexual desire and sibling rivalry. She was authentic, real, and her courageous characters made me feel less alone. Oh my gosh, talk about that and the solace you found in books.
- [12:32]
Kate Price
Just, I get teary, like, even hearing that. Research shows that children who are enduring anything in terms of trauma, you know, difficult life situations, if there is one safe adult in their life, it increases or decreases their risk of suicidality, depression, all of these things. And people always say to me, who is that person for you in your life? And for me, it was Judy Blume. She was some amorphous person out there and she really did help save my life. I mean, that's what you asked earlier in terms of, like, how does your body keep the score? All of this, you know, Judy Blume was really my first safe adult, truly. And to have her voice in books just meant the absolute world to me. I mean, books saved my life in high school. Then it was J.D. salinger who was a complicated individual, you know, but reading the Catcher in the Rye was the first time I read a trauma novel. I mean, that's what it's really about is trauma in my experience. And so just those words, it gave Me, access to. I knew that there was someone sane out there and someone who saw me. And knowing, you know, later, I forget what year it came out, but her book, Letters to Judy, you know, kids were writing her that phenomenal documentary that just came out. You know, she developed really strong interpersonal relationships with some children. It never even occurred to me to write to her. I mean, I just wouldn't have done that. But to know that other people did and that she took that seriously, came across on the page, like, even though I knew it on some level, and she was just a level of comfort and safety for me, and I felt her presence, you know, in the library in my town library. That was also my safe space. That helped keep me alive.
- [14:18]
Zibby Owens
Have you told Judy Blume that?
- [14:21]
Kate Price
Not yet. I've tried.
- [14:23]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh. Can I connect you? I just had her on my podcast.
- [14:26]
Kate Price
Oh, my gosh. I would absolutely love that. I mean, I probably will be a blubbering idiot. Like, so many people just, like, dissolve at her feet, but.
- [14:35]
Zibby Owens
Well, let me try. I'll email you both.
- [14:37]
Kate Price
I would be honored. I would be so honored.
- [14:39]
Zibby Owens
She should know. I mean, it's one thing to know that your book reaches millions, right? That's just like a sentence, but it's the individual effects of the books. Isn't this why everybody writes? Like, you're gonna have this with your readers, too?
- [14:53]
Kate Price
Connection? Absolutely. I mean, this is one thing I really know is that it's been said, you know, isolation is the glue that holds oppression in place. That was very much the case of what my father did to me and Sissy, my sister, really kept us isolated from one another. And books, I really do believe, are ultimately about connection. We are a species of meaning makers. We are a species of storytellers. And so the very fact that I have survived all I've survived and can write about it, how could I not? It also helps that I'm married to a journalist who very early in our marriage was, like, who really showed me the power of journalism. And this was also kind of around the time that spotlight had come out, and so I could just really see the power of journalism. And then once I did work with a journalist for 10 years, and we were able to really get to the bottom of my story, it really became time to write the book as well. So having him along with me as a journalist, and then he's also an author, sports a little bit lighter. I'm a huge baseball f. So that's where we really connect. But that's really helped me feel very, very, very familiar and comfortable with the journalistic process as well as the publishing industry.
- [16:15]
Zibby Owens
Today's episode has been sponsored by Wayfair. I'm so sad that summer is winding down. I look forward to it all year, but there is something nice about getting back into a routine. Going back to school and all that. But it does make me want to refresh my spaces and upgrade my style for the new school year. I decided to get a new light fixture from Wayfair, which I'm really excited about because I was really tired of our dining room always being a little bit too dark. So as summer winds down, you also can get back into a routine you love with Wayfair. Wayfair, if you don't know, has bedding and linens and lighting and storage and it's really your one stop. Shop for everything from desks and bookcases and office chairs or whatever and anything I get, it comes so quickly. The light fixture had overnight delivery and came. It looked perfect and it totally was hassle free and easy. And really, Wayfair has everything your home needs for this season. The huge selection of outdoor and indoor items and back to school and everything makes it easy to shop for items on a budget. Or if you want to splurge, there's something for every style and every home, no matter your space or budget, plus free and easy delivery. Even on the big stuff. It's just great. I'm obsessed with Wayfair, so get organized, refreshed and back to routine for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home.
- [17:49]
Today's.
- [17:49]
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- [19:08]
Quince.com Zippy BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.
- [19:58]
Well, both of those that you wrote about in the book are were such a big relief to me as the reader reading your life because of course you end up in a series of horrific relationships in the aftermath of the what happened with your father. And then when you met your husband, I was like, oh yay, he's such a nice guy. I hope they end up together. Like, let's see what happens. And then you do, you know, spoiler. But it's in your bio. But so whatever. But I'm just so glad you were able to make a meaningful relationship with somebody so awesome. And then the journalist is also another key Janelle. I think her name's Janelle.
- [20:34]
Kate Price
Janelle Nanos.
- [20:35]
Zibby Owens
Yes, Janelle Nanos. The two of you like going through it together and the patience and all the steps you had to take to kind of build this case and the vindication you felt when you were like, oh my gosh, it wasn't just me. I didn't make this up. Even though you knew you didn't make it up, but just when you found the proof. Oh my gosh. How does that feel now? And also, what about any sort of prosecution? Your father at the end of the book is denying everything. Is there anything next?
- [21:06]
Kate Price
Let me take that in a few steps. One. Janelle is phenomenal. She was a Pulitzer Prize finalist for the article that she wrote about our 10 year journey together. And the fact that it took us 10 years was so important because so many things needed to happen during that time. Meet the MeToo movement happened. Sandusky happened. Jerry Sandusky. I grew up 45 minutes east of State College and so all of these things that we think people are just making it up. People just are beginning to believe survivors more and more, which to me is the biggest takeaway. When people read my story or read any story, and they say they feel so helpless, it's like, what can I do? And for me, it is truly believe survivors. It has been said that everyone knows a victim, but no one knows a perpetrator. And so it's just that ability to hide and cover up is such an important part of how sexual violence, or any violence or any domination control domestic violence continues to happen. So that silence and silencing victims is incredibly important. And then in terms of what's next, there's really nothing next. For now, the end of the book is how everything is ending. And yet I'm also thrilled to say that I continue to spend time in my hometown doing a lot of advocacy work on policy, on practice. I'm on various task forces, policy advisory groups, because ultimately, I cannot abandon the children in my hometown the way that my sister and I were abandoned.
- [22:46]
Zibby Owens
Wow. And your town really does become sort of complicit in this, in a way, in the silence and the people who suspected but didn't say anything. And the culture, I mean, it wasn't just you. I mean, this is generations of behavior suicidality in your family. I mean, this is a lot. And there are just some places where these types of things are just not talked about and sanctioned. And it's hard to believe in today's day and age, but it's. But it's true.
- [23:16]
Kate Price
It is true. And I think there's definitely a regional aspect to Appalachia. It is very isolated. It is very clannish. I mean, we're mostly had Scots and Irish ancestors, so all of that, as we know with epigenetics, it's very deep in our bones. It's survival. And yet, ultimately, as I've learned, as I've spoken to more and more people, family secrets are ubiquitous. I love Danny Shapiro's Family Secrets podcast. And it just shows that that's really. That happens everywhere. And so much of it is about family reputation and all of these. And I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. But while the particular kind of violence and the particular kind. The way the family secrets were kept, I think is very regional and specific to Appalachia, I don't think that they are special, you know, in any way, shape, or form. Family secrets are everywhere. And that's another big reason why I wanted to do the book, because I cannot tell you how many Survivors I have met around my age or a little bit older who have lost a sibling to suicide because their family members would not believe them. So I just really wrote this. Ultimately, I really wrote it for anyone who's endured trauma or is enduring trauma, but really in terms of familial, commercial sexual exploitation of children, survivors, and victims, it is so isolating. And you are so. What would be the word? Gaslit. You know, I'm just so. Those secrets are so at the core. And this is your family. I mean, this is the people who are supposed to be protecting you. This is the people that society assumes are protecting you. And then if it's quite the opposite, boy, are the odds really stacked against you.
- [25:06]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh. Can I read one more? One more section? Okay. My Al Anon meeting revelation that my abuse wasn't my fault had slammed me like a tsunami rushing in from outside of my consciousness. But this, this. It washed over me slowly like a calm rising tide, eroding the shoddy foundation of a beachfront mansion that had been built to house my father's pulsing secrets. My relentless work to heal had eaten away at the facade, delivering me to this moment. All of the work I had done to heal must have opened my mind's floodgates. Finally secure enough to face the truth, the house of lies was falling away. And with that, the ground shuddered as each room broke free, filling with frothy waves carrying the reality of my exploitation. I tried to fly up into the corner, dissociating like I had done in my bedroom whenever my father abused me as a child. Yet the corners kept disappearing as the rooms collapsed around me, freed by my readiness to face the veracity of my childhood. Oh, it's so powerful. How do you feel like going back and revisiting these moments and the collapse moment that we kind of knew was coming all through the book, and then finally, like, whoosh comes. How do you feel?
- [26:21]
Kate Price
You know, I feel a tremendous sense of relief. The book just poured out of me. It took me about three years to write the prologue, which I wrote during my investigation with Janelle. I would work on it in my hometown. And that took three years, you know, but then really, once Janelle and I finished our investigation and I was just really putting things together, it all just poured right out of me. It reminds me so much of the tremendous work of Melissa Phoebos, who I love so much in terms of writing and getting, you know, just that. The corporeal experience, the bodily experience of writing and how much we hold. And I do. I See a trainer and I do a lot of stretching and things. And so just even her teaching me that release of what we hold in our fascia and what we hold in our hips and what we hold in our feet. And so all of that just being very difficult because for so long as that passage mentions, you know, I would just dissociate, I would go fly out of my body. And so learning to stay in my body and then release it in a healthy way instead of just disappearing has been a huge part of that process.
- [27:35]
Zibby Owens
And you've become in your professional life just incredibly accomplished. You are a fantastic fighter. You fight child trafficking worldwide. You were like a total badass. Talk about your career and how you've turned your trauma into such a forceful professional existence.
- [27:55]
Kate Price
Thank you. So I am an associate research. I'm sorry, this is a new position for me, an associate research scientist at the Wellesley Centers for Women, which is a research institute at Wellesley College. And the basis of our work here, of all of the work done here is research and action. So it is not to say being an academic in terms of just doing research and then publishing scholarly research that maybe five or 10 or 40 people are going to read. For me it was really how do we create scientific knowledge that then does get published in journals, but then can translate to policy and practice. And so that is incredibly important to me. I'm very honored to say that myself and my mentor and colleague, we are embarking on the first, that I know of, the first national study on familial commercial sexual exploitation in the United States. We're doing some pilot studying work now and then we're seeking funding for a larger five year study that really will get to not only the victimology, not only to get to victims experiences, but talking to non offending family members, talking to traffickers, to buyers, to service providers, and to criminal, criminal legal system agents as well, and doing a mapping to really see how does this happen. I know how this happened now through my experience. I know it anecdotally from the amazing community of survivors that I am a part of. But now I want to. The intention is, and we will create scientific empirical knowledge about how this happens.
- [29:42]
Zibby Owens
That's amazing. That's so great. Oh my gosh.
- [29:45]
Kate Price
Thank you. And can I also just say, I would have been a sociologist no matter what had happened to me. I see my need, the need to find chicken plucker when I'm 6 years old. Like that's my first sociological interview. You know, it's like just needing to know that truth that sparked very early in me and it's just a huge part of who I am. And as. As I discuss research has been a huge part of my healing. And so that's, for me, that's why it's so, you know, I think everyone's healing path is so individual. And for me, it's just the way my mind works. And so that was. That's what I did and that's what I continue to do.
- [30:25]
Zibby Owens
Oh my gosh. Well, I wish you could go back to the girl and her friend who snuck into the truck and turned on the CV radio and all that and made that first crackly conversation. Fast forward to now. Like, if only you could fast forward through some of the heartbreak in the intervening years. But how. How vindicating very much, very much. At the end of the book, you talked about wanting to open a bookstore, Mill Girl Books. Is that what's going on with that?
- [30:57]
Kate Price
We're waiting right now. And you know, I don't want to give away too much, but for me, it is a way to continue that legacy of. And not just a bookstore. I do writing workshops in my hometown at the library. That was so important to me. And just that continuation of how can I continue that legacy of making books and writing available to children. To children. I could never afford books, really. When I was a kid, I would buy Judy Blume every once in a while. But then once my father left and we didn't even have enough food to eat, books were not on the table. So for me to be able to provide books for kids who want them, who can't afford them, that is another way that I see that I can do direct service in my hometown. And that's incredibly, incredibly important to me.
- [31:52]
Zibby Owens
So what advice can you give to someone who is going through something they don't know if they can bear?
- [31:58]
Kate Price
I think the biggest thing is you're not alone. You might be physically alone because you have been isolated by people around you, by people who are controlling you. People know exactly what they're doing in terms of that because they know your power and the power of people around you. And so what we always say in our family, in our immediate family, me, my husband, and my son, is bet on yourself. We're not gamblers. At the same time as my husband, a journalist, myself as an aspiring academic, and now our son has his own entrepreneurial dreams, you know, it's bet on yourself. Just know you'll get through it. You might not have the answer right now. You might not even have the answer for 10 years. You might not even have the answer for 30 or 40 or 50 years. But it's there and it will reveal itself to you when things are safe.
- [32:54]
Zibby Owens
Oh my gosh, Kate. This Happened to Me A Memoir. Oh my gosh. Congratulations. Bravo. And thank you.
- [33:02]
Kate Price
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
- [33:04]
Zibby Owens
Thank you. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and Spread the Word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books. Warren Chi it's an energy someone gives off when their appliances and home systems are protected by an American Home Shield warranty.
- [33:34]
Howie Mandel
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- [33:36]
Zibby Owens
Visit ahs.com listen see ahs.com contracts for coverage details, including limit amounts, fees, limitations and exclusions.
- [33:42]
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- [34:11]
Zibby Owens
Acast.
- [34:12]
Kate Price
Powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [34:23]
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Hello everyone, I'm James Richardson and I host the Totally Football show four times a week. If you're not familiar with it, perhaps you'd care to give it a listen in the season ahead because we cover all the big stuff Premier League, Champions League in depth, European League coverage, Football League and more. We've got insights and analysis from the best reporters in the industry, and we got quizzes and nostalgia, too. Plus, we're going to be bigger and broader than ever for the season ahead, so check out the Totally Football show wherever you get your podcast. The rest is not as good as the Totally Football Show.
- [35:00]
Zibby Owens
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [35:06]
Kate Price
Acast.com.