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Kiana Harris
Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails.
Zibby Owens
Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.
Narrator
Over.
Kiana Harris
Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?
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Kiana Harris
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here today.
Narrator
Thank you for sharing your really powerful story. This is completely transformative in so many ways. All the things that you have gone through that you write about so beautifully, who you advocate for, it's really impressive. And even just navigating any relationship, like when somebody is like, I don't like how your hair looks, you know, like, please just like fix your hair. Like, we can all relate even in like the most absurd, different circumstances. There are so many threads that we all share.
Kiana Harris
Correct, Correct. It's such a, like a universal experience in that sense.
Narrator
Yeah. So tell everybody what your book is about.
Kiana Harris
Yeah. So Mainline Mama for me is a love letter to women, specifically black girls and women who've been forced into relationships with the carceral system, whether that's being incarcerated, formerly incarcerated, or women like me who are mainline mamas that are just trying to, you know, keep a connection to a loved one.
Narrator
Can you explain you do in the book, but explain what a mainline mama is.
Kiana Harris
A mainline mama is a woman who has to navigate prison to keep connection to a loved one who's also a caregiver for her partner, her children, biological or not, her community.
Narrator
Okay, keep going. Sorry.
Kiana Harris
So. No, no worries. And so I call Mainline Mama actually my coming of age story. Right. Because it's detailing my experiences raising my children with their then incarcerated parents. And during that time, in trying to navigate the carceral system and trying to create home for us, I built community with other women and discovered the best kind of love, which is self love. Right. And what I ultimately realized is that all the home that I was searching through, everyone else was already within myself.
Narrator
That's beautiful. So you had a baby at 14 from the very first time you had sex.
Kiana Harris
Correct.
Narrator
This is fertility off the charts. I mean, there are people who would pay a lot of money for this, and I joke I shouldn't, but, you know, you were very obviously surprised. Your family was a little bit less than pleased, particularly with who the guy was. Your Bert tried to help find Jason a better job, get him off the streets. At the time, he was, you know, dealing drugs in a gang, and you were like, but I'm going to be a mom. Take us back to that time in your life.
Kiana Harris
Yeah, it was such. It was a whirlwind because my whole life just exploded. Like the. The double life of Kiana was exposed in an instant. Right. And so for myself, I've always been an overachiever. I've always known, like, I'm going to college. I'm going to be an obstetrician. I'm going to do all these great things. My life is going to be amazing until I'm pregnant. And so for me, it was not only. It didn't just change my life, it changed everyone else's life around me, you know, and so I had to quickly become an adult. I had to change my plans, you know, and at the time, that was very crushing for me, but I had to change my plans. And so what I like to think about it now, the dreams were never crushed. They were just deferred. Right. Because I ended up doing everything that I wanted to do in life, but it was just a very difficult time to navigate and find my new place for myself and within my family.
Narrator
So people say, like, I wonder what it would be like. Like, what would it be like to be a teenager with their own child when teenagers are still children? I have a couple of them and.
Kiana Harris
Me, too.
Narrator
I mean, so how did you learn how to navigate that, particularly without tons of familiar support, tons of resources at your disposal? Like, I know there were times when you were quite depressed, which you write about in the book. How did you get through those moments?
Kiana Harris
You know, I am resilient. And I know it sounds so cliche. No, no, I am relentless as far as if I'm determined to do something, I'm gonna do it. And me being pregnant just fueled a fire in me to succeed even further because now I have this person looking up at me, you know, and so I. You know, I was kind of pushed out of school. They didn't tell me, like, you need to leave. But I was encouraged, you know, to go to another school. So I was so lucky to find a school that was. Just happened to be down the street from where I was living, which I had no idea existed. And it was a school for pregnant girls. And it was the best gift ever because I didn't have to hide who I was. I didn't have to feel ashamed because everyone looked like me. And as. As far as electives are concerned, we would just take turns watching each other's children in the daycare. So it was a beautiful gift. So I was able to finish high school. I even graduated a year early. So I was able to do all those things that I didn't even know existed in my neighborhood.
Narrator
And now you have five kids, correct? Oh my gosh. I have four kids. I thought that was a lot. Well, you know, what is your age spread?
Kiana Harris
It is. My oldest is 29. I have 26, 15, 8 and 6.
Narrator
Oh my gosh. Wow.
Kiana Harris
Yeah.
Narrator
So what do your kids think about this book, Mainline Mama?
Kiana Harris
It's so funny because I. That was one of the things I was really excited for the book. So my children, especially my older children, can really know who I am as a person. Because as you know, your kids and I feel like all of us at one time, we think our parents are perfect. We put them up on these pedestals and almost like they're not people. Right. So of course there was times when my older children were teenagers and they thought I was just doing things to ruin their lives. And now they can see the story behind this, the method to the madness and kind of what was going on with me at that time in realizing that I'm a person too. So they came to my. To my reading here in Seattle and they were just like, wow. And I could just see their expressions from the stage and they were just completely blown away. And it was really touching because they came up to me afterwards and they were just like, wow, mom, like you've been through a lot of stuff and like you're still here. Like, you're amazing. And so it made me. It touched me so deeply. Oh, and my 15 year old is reading it currently. And it's really sweet because he's the age that I was, you know, so it's really nice to have these conversations with him as well because he's dealing with, you know, figuring out who he is as a person and navigating relationships with friends and things like that. So it's now giving him like, oh, my mom was a teenager too. She had to also reconcile, you know, hard choices and which way to go in life.
Narrator
Wow. I remember the first time I read my diary out loud to my kids when they were my age and I was like, this is so cool. It's like a time warp. Like you're meeting the young me and here you are, you know.
Kiana Harris
Yeah.
Narrator
Crazy. So you, I know you spoke about your resilience, but there's a section of the book where while Jason is still in prison because he had a 22 year sentence, you were also sexually assaulted. I mean, it's like, I'm like, what is going on? This poor woman. Everything is happening to her. Tell me about about that and even how his response is not what you were looking for. Today's episode has been sponsored by Wayfair. Oh my gosh, it is so nice outside today. It's one of the first spring days and it makes me so excited to just get outside and soak up the sunshine as the days get longer and warmer. And it makes me want to refresh my outdoor space and make it feel more mine. I don't know if you feel the same way, but with summer on the way, I have found so many great things on the Wayfarer site to spruce up my outdoors. There are these adorable throw pillows that I love that are blue and white. Blue is my favorite color. And they have these fabulous, fabulous outdoor games like Connect 4 and Croquet and things from my childhood that I am so excited for my kids to play with too. Delivery is always fast, free and hassle free, which makes life so easy. I can always trust Wayfair to deliver. So if you're looking for outdoor seating or outdoor structures and gazebos or something small like, I don't know, a patio cushion, Wayfair has everything. And it's everything your home needs. During the warm weather season, too, Wayfair makes it easy to tackle all your home summer goals. So shop a huge selection of outdoor furniture online this summer. Get outside with wayfair. Head to wayfair.com right now. That's W A Y-F-A-I-R.com wayfair every style, every home Foreign.
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Kiana Harris
Race the Rudders. Race the sails. Raise the sails.
Narrator
Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over.
Kiana Harris
Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?
Narrator
Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply.
Kiana Harris
Correct. That was a really hard time for me because, you know, no one ever thinks anything like that is going to happen to them. Like, no one thinks that, you know, and I happen to know the person that committed this crime against me. So I was hurt on a number of levels because it's someone who I previously trusted and I thought I would never imagine that they would do this kind of thing to me. And so, of course, you know, at the time, me and Jason were married and this person is my best friend. So I'm a mess. And I'm telling him. And so I'm going back and forth with my mind as far as should I tell him, should I not? Because I'm embarrassed. I don't want to talk about it. I just kind of want to go get in the bed and lay down and never get up. Right. And so I decided to tell him because he's my best friend and I'm looking for comfort, Right. And I'm also thinking about my health and his health. I'm thinking about all the things that you think about. And so his reaction was just. It was heartbreaking. I remember it like it was yesterday. It was really, really heartbreaking for me because it definitely wasn't what I expected, you know. And so after that time, that's when I really started going on my own discovery of Kiana and what Kiana needs and what Kiana wants and what boundaries need to be in place for Kiana. And I started going to therapy. That was. That's what made me go to therapy. And therapy just opened up my whole world and really uncovering everything that I had stuffed down or either didn't have time to process because I was. I had to become an adult at 15.
Narrator
Can you share any more about what happened? You didn't really go into depth in the book and you totally don't have to.
Kiana Harris
But I don't want to go a lot into detail because it's something I really don't like to talk about a lot. But it was a situation where we were at a mutual Acquaintance house and they were having a party and everyone's having a good time and I happened to, I was not in a position to drive, so I stayed over at a friend's house, thought I was doing the responsible thing. And I kind of woke up to a person in my room that had no business being there.
Narrator
Oh, I'm really sorry. I'm really, really sorry. Oh my gosh. And then to have to sort of go home and take care of K. I mean, it's just. There's a lot. It's a lot. I'm sorry for pr. As if you weren't open enough in this book, I have to ask you more. You've already given the reader and me so much, so thank you. It just made me curious because I feel like you've been so forthcoming and anyway, I'm just so rooting for you. I just wanted to hear. Tell me about the work that you're doing now because you're helping so many other people.
Kiana Harris
Yeah, the work that I'm doing now. I'm currently at the University of Washington, which I love, and we are currently, you know, looking, leaning into anti racist justice work as far as the connection between mass incarceration and health. Because I'm not sure if you know, but I'm just going to say most folks who come home from prison or jail, they do not have the best health outcomes when they come home. And so we are trying to lean into research to kind of uncover what can be done so that folks while they're incarcerated are not getting diseases or falling prey to death prematurely. And also when they come home. Why is that happening? So we're focusing on the health care aspect.
Narrator
What are some of the most common things that are happening to formerly incarcerated people? What are some common diseases or what are you seeing?
Kiana Harris
High blood pressure, diabetes? These are things because, you know, the diet is not good. We all know the effects of stress on the body, you know, especially for someone who's been in for a long time. And so for the quote unquote folks that are living on the outside, these are things we can manage. We go to the doctor, we take our, you know, pill once a day and we're normally fine. We could change things with diet, but when you're locked away and you don't have a lot of choices of things, or you have to wait months to get an appointment or things of that nature is not so cut and dry. And so these health issues, they kind of linger and they fester into worse things. And so now you have it where this person is being, okay, it's time for you to go. And then you're home for maybe a year or two, and then you hear about someone dying.
Narrator
Oh, wow. Well, that's amazing activism. You know, it's wonderful to be taking care of other people. And, you know, you made such a strong. You told such a strong story about how it feels to love someone who is essentially, like, controlled by the state and that you don't have any. You feel like you don't have any rights and that even your own wedding, that you had to just be up to the whim of everyone else. Like, was the back showing or not? And you have to learn all the tricks. And yet at the end of the day, there's like, nothing you can do, which is really, really hard.
Kiana Harris
Correct.
Narrator
Obviously correct.
Kiana Harris
And I say it all the time in a jokingly way. It's like, at that time, the prison was my real. That's who I was in a real relationship with, because they had. It was me in the prison negotiating. It wasn't me and my then partner. You know, it was like everything had to be involved with the prison.
Narrator
Do you have any parenting advice?
Kiana Harris
Oh, yes, I do. I think. And these are just lessons I've also learned in myself, in my journey. I think it's very important to check in with your kids. And I think, you know, in this life, everyone's busy. We're on our phones, we're working. Our kids are doing 50 million activities. But really check in on them. Like, check in and see how their heart is doing. How's your heart? Not just, you know, like, how was school? You know, things like that, but really check in with them. And also, I've learned to. When I am making these big decisions for my family, of course I consider my children, but I also. I want to hear their opinion or I clarify things or if I make a decision. I used to just be very much like, this decision is made, and that's it. But let me give you some clarity on why this is happening. So it takes a lot of the guesswork out. There's no, you know, underlying resentment that doesn't need to be there. Everyone's on the same page about why we're moving in this direction.
Narrator
Very good advice. Thank you for that. Amazing. Are you doing any more writing?
Kiana Harris
Yes, I am doing a number of things. I'm working on the second book, which I'm very excited about. It's looking like it's going to be a matrilineal memoir of relationships, tracing connections between health and family. Because I really want this next book to kind of inspire, explore the legacies that are passed down that we don't talk about, which are the legacies of silence and sadness and kind of the loss of oneself, which are unfortunately, traumas usually, you know, forced on women. And that manifests as illness, as we can see there, all these autoimmune diseases and things like that, because doctors, you know, they take a family history of recurring ailments. But I want the next book to explore how our bodies are connected to relationships. So I'm working on the next book. And because I'm such a dreamer, I would love to see Mainline Mama adapted. I would just love it. Yeah. So that's what I'm working on at this. At this time.
Narrator
Amazing. Well, Kiana, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your story and being so inspiring and sharing your resilience and your wisdom and the desire, the essentialness of self love throughout all of it.
Kiana Harris
So thank you so much for having me. I wish we could do it in person. I saw you online and it looked really cool.
Narrator
Oh, I know. I only asked you around here. I organized a week ahead. Sorry. I'm sorry. If I come to. You're in Washington state somewhere.
Kiana Harris
Yeah, I'm in Seattle.
Narrator
Yeah. So if I come to Seattle, let's do it on stage. Sound good? Okay.
Kiana Harris
Okay.
Narrator
All right. Thanks so much.
Kiana Harris
Thank you.
Narrator
Bye. Bye.
Kiana Harris
Bye.
Narrator
Thank you for listening to Totally booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
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Kiana Harris
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Kiana Harris
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Kiana Harris
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Totally Booked with Zibby: Episode Summary Featuring Kiana Harris – "Mainline Mama: A Memoir"
Introduction
In this compelling episode of Totally Booked with Zibby, host Zibby Owens welcomes Kiana Harris, the author of Mainline Mama: A Memoir. Kiana, a multifaceted individual—a writer, storyteller, mother of five, prison abolitionist, activist, and academic—shares her profound journey navigating motherhood amidst the challenges of the carceral system. With an impressive array of accolades, including the 2018-19 PEN America Writing for Justice Fellowship and the 2024 Haymarket Writing Freedom Fellowship, Kiana brings a wealth of experience and insight to the conversation.
Exploring Mainline Mama
Kiana begins by explaining the essence of her memoir:
Kiana Harris [04:21]: "Mainline Mama for me is a love letter to women, specifically Black girls and women who've been forced into relationships with the carceral system, whether that's being incarcerated, formerly incarcerated, or women like me who are mainline mamas that are just trying to, you know, keep a connection to a loved one."
She defines a "mainline mama" as a woman striving to maintain bonds with loved ones entangled in the prison system while juggling roles as caregivers for their children and communities. This memoir serves as her coming-of-age story, detailing her experiences raising children with incarcerated parents and the personal growth that emerged from these trials.
Personal Journey and Resilience
Zibby delves into Kiana's early life, highlighting the profound impact of becoming a mother at 14:
Kiana Harris [06:07]: "It was a whirlwind because my whole life just exploded. The double life of Kiana was exposed in an instant."
Kiana candidly discusses the abrupt transition from envisioning a future as an obstetrician to facing the immediate responsibilities of motherhood. Despite the crushing circumstances, she reflects on her ability to defer her dreams rather than seeing them crushed:
Kiana Harris [07:00]: "What I like to think about it now, the dreams were never crushed. They were just deferred. Right. Because I ended up doing everything that I wanted to do in life, but it was just a very difficult time to navigate and find my new place for myself and within my family."
Her resilience shines through as she recounts finding a supportive community at a specialized school for pregnant girls, which allowed her to graduate a year early and lay the foundation for her future accomplishments.
Navigating Teenage Motherhood
Zibby empathizes with the unique challenges of being a teenager with a child, and Kiana shares her strategies for overcoming depression and forging her path:
Kiana Harris [07:38]: "I am resilient. And I know it sounds so cliché. No, no, I am relentless as far as if I'm determined to do something, I'm gonna do it."
Kiana emphasizes the importance of self-love and community support, which were pivotal in her ability to overcome adversity. Her story serves as a beacon of hope for young mothers facing similar struggles.
Impact on Her Children
Kiana discusses the profound effect her memoir has had on her children, fostering deeper understanding and connection:
Kiana Harris [09:02]: "It's so funny because I... my children, especially my older children, can really know who I am as a person."
Her children, particularly her 15-year-old, find solace and relatability in her narrative, bridging generational gaps and fostering meaningful conversations about personal growth and resilience.
Confronting Trauma
A particularly poignant moment in the conversation addresses Kiana's experience of sexual assault and its aftermath:
Kiana Harris [13:56]: "I was hurt on a number of levels because it's someone who I previously trusted and I thought I would never imagine that they would do this kind of thing to me."
Kiana bravely shares the emotional turmoil following the assault, including her unexpected and heartbreaking reaction from her then-husband Jason. This revelation marks a turning point in her journey toward self-discovery and healing through therapy.
Activism and Current Work
Transitioning from her personal narrative, Kiana sheds light on her current activism and academic pursuits:
Kiana Harris [16:50]: "I'm currently at the University of Washington, which I love, and we are currently, you know, looking, leaning into anti-racist justice work as far as the connection between mass incarceration and health."
Her research focuses on the dire health outcomes faced by formerly incarcerated individuals, addressing issues like high blood pressure, diabetes, and the broader impacts of stress and inadequate healthcare within the prison system. Kiana's work aims to uncover solutions that can improve health outcomes both during and after incarceration.
Parenting Insights
Kiana offers invaluable parenting advice rooted in her personal experiences:
Kiana Harris [19:35]: "I think it's very important to check in with your kids. [...] Really check in on them. Like, check in and see how their heart is doing."
She advocates for deep, meaningful communication with children, emphasizing emotional well-being over superficial inquiries about daily activities. Additionally, Kiana highlights the importance of involving children in major family decisions to foster transparency and mutual understanding.
Future Endeavors and Legacy
Looking ahead, Kiana reveals her plans for her second book, which promises to delve deeper into the interconnectedness of health and family relationships:
Kiana Harris [20:49]: "I'm working on the second book, which I'm very excited about. It's looking like it's going to be a matrilineal memoir of relationships, tracing connections between health and family."
She aspires to explore the legacies of silence and trauma passed down through generations, aiming to inspire and shed light on how these unspoken burdens manifest in physical ailments and affect familial bonds.
Conclusion
Zibby and Kiana conclude the episode by reflecting on the transformative power of Kiana's story and her unwavering resilience. Kiana's journey from a teenage mother navigating incarceration's harsh realities to a respected activist and scholar serves as an inspiring testament to the strength of self-love and community support.
Notable Quotes
Kiana Harris [04:21]: "Mainline Mama for me is a love letter to women, specifically Black girls and women who've been forced into relationships with the carceral system..."
Kiana Harris [07:00]: "What I like to think about it now, the dreams were never crushed. They were just deferred."
Kiana Harris [13:56]: "I was hurt on a number of levels because it's someone who I previously trusted and I thought I would never imagine that they would do this kind of thing to me."
Kiana Harris [19:35]: "I think it's very important to check in with your kids. [...] Really check in on them. Like, check in and see how their heart is doing."
Final Thoughts
This episode of Totally Booked with Zibby offers a deep and heartfelt exploration of Kiana Harris's life and work. Through her memoir, activism, and academic endeavors, Kiana illuminates the intricate ties between personal trauma, systemic injustice, and the pursuit of healing and self-love. Listeners are left inspired by her resilience and commitment to fostering change both within her family and the broader community.