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Hi listeners. We have totally booked live coming up this fall and I hope you'll be a part of it. We have three events in New York City, September 19th, 25th and 30th in New York where I'll be doing six interviews live each day. We also have a petite retreat in Greenwich on October 4th. Go to zibbemedia.com and event or and or eventbrite and search the events and please come. I can't wait to meet you in person. You walk in tired and hungry, one bad dinner away from losing it. You don't like to cook. You don't want more takeout. You just want something good. That's why there's dish by Blue Apron pre made meals with at least 20 grams of protein and no artificial flavors or colors. From fridge to fork in five minutes or less. Keep the flavor. Ditch the subscription. Get 20% off your first two orders with code apron20. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blue waifron.com terms for more.
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Yes. We're earning unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with a Capital One Saver card. So let's just get one of everything. Everything. Fire everything. The Capital One Saver card is at table 27 and they're earning unlimited 3% cash back. Yes Chef. This is so nice. Had a feeling you'd want 3% cash back on dessert. Ooh, tiramisu. Earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with the Capital One Saver Card. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com for details. Today's episode is sponsored by the Foxed Page, a podcast and YouTube channel that dives deep into the very best books. It's basically your favorite college English class, but very relaxed and way more fun. No exams, no participation, and only books you really want to read. Kimberly Ford, best selling author, one time professor and PhD in literature authority, offers up entertaining, often funny talks that will leave you feeling inspired and a little smarter. She digs right into everything from J.D. salinger to Miranda July, from Demon Copperhead to Madame Bovary, from Pride and Prejudice to Lessons in Chemistry. The talks on individual books are the heart of the podcast, but Enriched Read segments tackle ideas like unreliable narrators, while old favorite talks treat you to a fresh adult look at childhood gems like Harriet the Spy and Are you there God? It's me, Margaret. Want to get the most out of what you read and be entertained along the way? The Foxed Page is for you. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram. Ibby Owens Kitty Zeldes is the author of One of Them, a novel. Born in Chadera, Israel. Kitty is the pseudonym for an award winning author of nine novels and over 40 books for children. Her essays, articles and short fiction have been published in many national and literary publications. She is also the fiction editor of Lilith Magazine. Zeldas lives in Brooklyn, New York. Welcome Kitty. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about One of Them, a novel. Congratulations.
B
Thank you.
A
First of all, just want to get this clear this up. You have a pseudonym? Why?
B
Well, because the previous novels that I wrote were contemporary. And in 2018 I published a novel with HarperCollins called Not Our Kind, which is also in the 40s. And they said we think this is different enough to kind of warrant a relaunch. And so, I mean, they asked me and Zelda says my maiden name, so that felt obvious. And Kitty is a college nickname. I have a whole host of people who've called me Kitty for many years. And so it felt like quite natural. And I thought, okay, we'll do it.
A
Wow, very cool. Okay, so just had to ask, okay, tell listeners what one of them is about.
B
It's a friendship novel, not a romance. Two young women who meet at Vassar in the late 1940s, both are Jewish, but one is pretending not to be Jewish. She she thinks that this is, you know, she's an assimilated Jewish girl, so she's grown up around non Jews and she's encountered various subtle forms, not so subtle forms of prejudice. And she's decided college is a restart for her. Her father dies. Her mother has been dead for a long time. Her father dies right before she goes to college. And she has a very non Jewish sounding last name because her father changed his name even though he functioned as a Jew in the world. He was getting started as a lawyer and it seemed to him that it would be advantageous to not have a Jewish last name. So she can get by with this name that does not sound Jewish. And she thinks this is going to solve all her problems, but it only creates new problems that she couldn't possibly anticipate. So it's about the two of them and how they come together, break apart, and ultimately come together again.
A
Would you mind if I read a little bit from the beginning?
B
I'd be honored.
A
Okay, that would be great. There's a little bit about this being Jewish and the prejudice that comes right away. Okay, so the group of friends is talking about another woman, Delia, and they're not saying the word Jewish, but they mean that. So this is in the first chapter. So they're talking about her and they say, do you think she was doing something illicit? Illegal even? Tabitha sounded mildly titillated by the possibility. Could be, mused Peggy. Maybe she's a thief or a spirit spy. The war was only just behind them. There had been a lot of talk about spies. The girls fell silent for a moment as they tried to imagine Delia's clandestine mission, but no one had anything concrete to offer. Well, even if it's not anything like that, it's still strange, midge finally said. She's a strange girl, but they all are. Ann was well aware of what they meant. She'd heard it used the same way many times before. What can you expect? Said Midge. Everyone knows they're a bit devious and that they keep to themselves. Exclusive, added Virginia. And superior. Like they think they're better than other people. There was a general murmur of assent, although no one said they were Jewish allowed and knew that that was what they were talking about. Being one of the few Jewish girls at Vassar, Dealey was immediately set apart, and her background had been a subject of intense interest and scrutiny since freshman year. And then she just goes on to figure out how she's going to deal with this. And like any good Jewish person, she throws allergies into the conversation. So anyway, tell me, how did anything like this ever happen to you? Like where did this come from and what do we do with this level of prejudice then into now?
B
Well, those are two different questions. So let me address the first one, like how I grew up in Brooklyn in a kind of middle class, you know, lower middle class neighborhood, and it was segregated in a way, but comfortably so. The Jewish kids went to the public school. There were Catholic kids, Italian, Irish, who went to the parochial school. We saw these kids, they saw us. We didn't hang out, but there was no animosity that I ever recall. They just kind of stuck to their own kind, and we stuck to our own kind. Then in 1974, I went to Vassar, and that was. What can I say?
A
Did you go to Nightingale, by the way? Because I know you mentioned it.
B
No, no, I did not. I went to. I went to school in Brooklyn, but Vassar was many things. I mean, it was a wonderful place for me and truly an intellectual awakening. But I suddenly was confronted with all these wasps, very different than the kids I had, you know, known in my neighborhood. It was like a tsunami of them. And they excited me, they frightened me. I was disdainful, I was admiring. They were just so different. And I mean, that's how the name Kitty came about, because I have a very Jewish sounding name, actually, I have a Hebrew name. And I said to a good friend of mine, I don't belong here. Catherine Ann Worthington belongs here. And he said, kitty. And that was it, like in 1978. And I'm still Kitty. And now I'm Kitty on the page. So, you know, I kind of never. How to say this, I never really grew out of that, like the intersection, because I'm not. I'm Jewish, but not religious. I've never been observant. My family was not, in fact, in this sort of works its way into the novel. My parents, who are Americans and grew up in Detroit, they went to Israel in 1949. You know, they wanted to be part of that and lived there for nine years. And my brother and I were both born there. So being Jewish for me was connected with that only in a kind of abstract way, because we left when I was a baby. I didn't go back to Israel until I was 18. So that intersection of Jew, non Jew, and I married a man who wasn't Jewish. And like, that was never a problem for us. In fact, it was a good thing. So I continue to be interested in that. Like, how are we going to find our place in this bigger world? And setting it in the 1940s seemed good because those delineations were even more sharply drawn at that time. You know, I mean, you still have the word restricted being used very openly, like you never knew what that meant. You don't like those people. They're not going to be here. Don't worry. They're not going to live near you. They're not going to be in the dining room with you at a hotel. So that's cool. They know they don't belong here and we know they're going to keep them out of here. So that was kind of where I was with this.
A
It's interesting taking this on a college campus and seeing what's going on on college campuses today and the craziness that has ensued. This is almost a precursor in a way, although, you know, things have just exploded. Tell me about that and what you think about what's happened on college campuses and how this story like yours leads to something like this.
B
I am kind of shocked, as I think many people my age are. And I read Bret Stephens in the Times, who I read regularly, who's Jewish, by the way, like, who knew with a name like that? And he said, you know, prior to this, like in the 40s, in the 30s, Jews were the undesirables, the vermin, the brown people, if you will. And now we are undesirable in a different way. Now we're the white oppressors. We've turned into that. And I still don't understand how that happened, but that seems where we are. And though I feel very unhappy about what's going on in Israel, as do I have a close Israeli friend. And, you know, she has said that to me as well. But the reaction, even before October 7th, I kind of felt like being anti Israel or anti Zionist was a socially acceptable, even palatable, admirable form of anti Semitism. Like, you could talk. You wouldn't say the kinds of things you would have said in the past, but you could talk about this. And I don't really know where to go with that. I mean, I'm not a very politically engaged person, honestly, it makes me want to go into that chair there and think, I don't know. I can't figure it out. I want everybody to be okay. Like, I want everyone to just be okay and to live together in peace and harmony. That's what I want.
A
That would be amazing.
B
That would be amazing.
A
That would be amazing. My gosh. So how did you feel writing this book? When did you start writing it? Had October 7th happened? It must not have.
B
No, it had not. And I didn't know that Palestine was going to be a part of this book. And I did get some mild pushback. A couple of people who said this might be a really hot button item. Are you sure you're up for that? Because they know me and I'm not. But it's where the story took me, and I wanted to go there. And I really tried to offer a balanced view that everybody has a point of view here, and both points of view are valid. I mean, I think the Jewish presence there and the formation of the country was not wrong. But people were displaced, and I understand that they felt unhappy about that, you know, of course they did. So I really tried hard to balance the view and not make it seem like the Jewish position, the Zionist position, was the only. The only one that counted, because it's not. And just from a practical level, if you don't want to hear the other side, there will never be peace. Like, if you just say, I don't care, you're wrong. Like, you've got to be able to hear what the other side says in order to fashion some sort of plan for going forward. Yes.
A
It's hard to get out of any sort of conflicts without communication.
B
Right. It's like the person literally becomes political. You know, if you're having a fight with your spouse or something and you say, I don't care how you feel, like, that's not gonna work out very well. You're gonna have to hear it even if you don't like it.
A
Yeah. Definitely not helping at the dinner table if nobody says I'm sorry ever, you know?
B
Right.
A
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B
Well, I knew the Vassar piece, you know, and I felt like I could write about that very comfortably. As I said, I didn't know the Palestine piece. Paris was fun because he's in Paris. Always fun. Love that. I don't work from an outline. I don't. I like to think character is what drives me, you know, and if I know who these people are and what they want and what they don't want, you know, like they kind of take me along and say, okay, I'm doing this now. Now it's your turn. You have to write it. But I let that be the guide. And I think that's like not. I mean that's a pretty standard way. I think a lot of writers work that way.
A
Do you ever continue characters on like would you ever sort of fast forward write a contemporary novel about.
B
I don't think so.
A
Not into it.
B
I mean maybe I don't want to say never but like with this book I feel like I did what I wanted to do and I would like to go on to something else and.
A
Tell me between Vassar and now how you, you've written many books and before your shift to this particular genre, talk about becoming an author and how you overcame any obstacles along the way.
B
Well, I didn't set out to be an author. I Actually went to grad school in art history because I majored in art history as an undergrad, and I liked it. And I thought, okay, I guess I'll do more of this. And I went to Columbia, and I found out that everything I liked about being an undergraduate was not true at Columbia. Like, it was so different. It's a big program. I have a good friend, in fact, the one who called me Kitty for the first time, who went to Yale, and he was an art historian. They accepted eight people in the PhD program. Columbia accepted 60. So they're kind of counting on a lot of people not completing it. And, you know, where, as an undergraduate, I felt like a little African violet over whom a cohort of professors were leaning and saying, grow, thrive, blossom. And, you know, at Columbia, everybody had a briefcase, and I got a briefcase too, because I went through. Did not help. Did not help at all. So while. And they didn't give me money, that was another thing. Like, when there are eight students at Yale, they fund all of them. And, you know, nobody's going into art history to make a lot of money. That's, like, not a profession that generally is very remunerative. So I'm in debt. And in this program that I can see is not really, like, working out for me. And while I'm there, I'm allowed to take classes elsewhere in the university. I take a fiction writing class. That was it. I had, you know, Oprah's aha moment. I thought, you mean you could do this with your life? I'm gonna do this with my life. And I worked myself out of grad school. I got the MA because I thought, well, we've already spent this money. We might as well have a degree, for what it's worth. So I did that. And then I just set about trying to become a writer, I think. You know, I know I briefly entertained the MFA idea, but I was already in debt. I didn't want to be in any more debt. It kind of scared me. So I wrote things for free, you know, to get clips. And then I was able to get more clips in writing assignments, and I kept writing fiction, mostly short stories. So I. I did begin work on a novel. I didn't have my first novel published until I was 45, so, you know, it took me a while to get there, But I had two unpublished novels before that. So I wrote them, didn't publish them. But if a. A path, it was a good path. It got me where I wanted to go, So I feel fortunate in that.
A
And which of the Other books not in this genre, which are you most proud of?
B
Well, I'm very partial to the first one, which is called the Four Temperaments. And for ballet domains out there, that's the title. That's the name of a well known Balanchine ballet. And I was a bun head before that term was used. I went from Brooklyn to Manhattan first, four days and five days and six days a week, all through high school and high school until I was 17. And I thought I would do that. And somewhere in there I knew I was neither talented enough nor devoted enough to do this. So I left it very abruptly and went to college and it coincided with my parents very unpleasant divorce. So I just didn't look at it, you know, I just like shut it out of my life. And later on it began to haunt me that I had left in such an abrupt way and that I thought, you know, you could have incorporated this into your life in some fashion and not had it be a professional interest. But nevertheless, this kind of defined you for years. And so that that novel was like a waiting vessel. Like all that feeling I had about those years and what it meant to me, I could pour into that. And the character, you know, one of the main characters in that novel is, is the dancer I wasn't, who was that talented and was that driven, you know, what was her story going to be? So I feel good about that novel.
A
How did all that dancing affect your body image?
B
Oh, you know, dancers, I mean, but in this country in general, like, as a woman, your body's never right. I mean, I look at my daughter who's in her 20s, and I think she's perfect. And you know, she'll complain like, I don't like this, I don't like that. And I kind of want to say, honey, it's as good now as it's ever going to be enjoyable. But, you know, that sounds like that might send the wrong message. Like, I don't. I don't think it's possible to be a woman in this culture and not feel insufficient in some way. Like, there's always something wrong with you. Yes. And ballet does exacerbate that, unfortunately. But I'm not so hardlined about it. I mean, you know, there are lots of different kinds of dancing, and I do think ballet is best performed by people with a certain body type. I just do, you know, I mean, it's not politically correct to say that, but that's kind of my view.
A
It's okay. I won't tell you what. Okay, what are you Working on now.
B
Well, I'm launching this baby out into the world. That'll take some doing. I have an idea for a book that would be set partially. I don't want to do the 40s again, maybe in the 1950s that has some kind of war component. But Also in the 18th century in Amsterdam, a woman who was a painter named Rachel Royce, who was, in her time, more successful than Rembrandt. And it was a still life painter. So, like, not the kind of thing that you just learn in a day or a week or a month. Like, takes years to do this. And she was initially schooled by her father, who was an amateur painter. Like, that relationship really interests me. Like, girls weren't even expected to read, much less paint like that. And yet he must have loved her very much and, you know, wanting this for her and making sure that it didn't happen. So I want. I like, some sections of this to deal with that, but it's no more than an idea at this moment.
A
That's okay. And what books are you particularly drawn to reading?
B
Here's a really disappointing thing. I cannot read a novel when I'm writing one. It's like I'm trying to tune into a voice in my head, and if I read a novel, then I get confused. It's like static on the radio. Like, I'm hearing that voice, and I want to hear this voice. So I have to stick to other kinds of reading. I read poetry. I like poetry a lot, and I tend to read poetry that I've read before. Like an old frame. You can come back to it again and again. And, like, I can read nonfiction. I read a really cool book. Wait, I think it's right here. Called When Women Ran Fifth Avenue about department stores. And it was really enjoyable. So I can read things like that. But it's. I have to say, it's a loss not to be reading novels. I don't know who I am when I don't. But I can't do it when I'm writing one, so.
A
Okay. Well, at least you know yourself. I mean, I know myself. And what advice would you give to aspiring authors?
B
Persistence is as important as talent. Like, you cannot be daunted by rejection. You know, it's just one person's opinion. It doesn't. It's not a global judgment on who you are as a writer or who you become. So I think you just have to be. Like, back in the day, when I was sending out stories, you sent them out snail mail. And when I got one back, I Made myself get it back in the mail in 48 hours. I had a 48 hour rule because that was the thing that took the sting of rejection away. Like, okay, it didn't get accepted there, but has a chance somewhere else. And I think that's. That's really important to. And not just to know that, but to put that into practice, you know, to keep. To just keep trying. It sounds kind of dull, but I am the fiction editor of Lilith magazine and I have been for like 20 years. So I get that from like, people say, like, well, what's wrong with it? Or what should I do? Or why didn't you accept it? And I don't have time for lengthy conversations. But I do say to people, it's just my opinion, like, what doesn't work for me might be perfect for someone else. Keep sending it out. You know, I'm not telling you it isn't good. I'm telling you sometimes it isn't. That's true. But that's just a subjective, you know, response. Right. I'm telling you it doesn't work for me. And for what we're looking for here, big world out there, lots of places to publish.
A
And for those who are looking to publish in Lilith, for example. And actually someone just interviewed me from there, so I have a piece coming out soon. I think that's wonderful. Yeah.
B
Anyway, I couldn't write. I didn't know.
A
Yeah, I think it's gonna be in this coming issue. Yeah, yeah. By Lauren Eliza Green. She interviewed me about the bookstore and owning a bookstore and all that.
B
Anyway, we're gonna share that issue because there was an excerpt from one of them in that fall issue.
A
Oh, great. Oh, perfect. So if people are interested in getting their fiction published, like, what do you tell them? Exactly. Not advice so much, but like, what are you looking for? And can people submit unsolicited?
B
Yes. Go. Go to our website. Our guidelines are there. It has to be. Has some feminist feminine content. Like, I think there's only one time in all the years that I've been doing this that we published something with a male point of view, piece of fiction. Like, women are not the objects in our story. Like, in what we publish, they're the subjects. And it has to have some Jewish content. Although that can be. That's a sort of loose term. Like, I have been good at what I call teasing out latent Jewish content and things like, where it's not explicitly Jewish, but I feel like there's Jewish content in here. I just need to, you know, I will Work with the author and say, is that what you meant? And if so, could you just bring it out a little bit more? And here's how. And that has worked. And it can't be over 3,000 words. We have a limited print run. I mean, our pages are always a certain number of pages. We never go above that. And so I get people that send a story that's 6,000 words, and I have to write them back and say, I can't even consider this. Like, you've got to either cut it or send me something else. But because we are a double niche, I don't feel like we get as many submissions as I would personally like. So I want to say to people, send me your stories. I will read them. I will read them quickly. And in fact, in a couple of occasions, people have been grumpy. They thought I read it so quickly that I didn't really consider it. But that's not true. It goes into my personal email. If I see it there, I want to read it soon so it doesn't slip down and, like, get away from me. And I know from being on the other side of this, even though it's not fun to hear no, I'd rather hear no than be waiting and just thinking, like, did they get it? Did it just vanish into some, like, cyber hole somewhere? Give me an answer and I'll move on. Right. If the answer is no, the answer is no. And I'll send it out. So that's my advice. Like, go to the website. Look, it tells you just how to do it. You can do it through submittable and I will read it. I want you to look forward to reading it. So please. Sending a book.
A
Amazing. Now you're inspiring me. I don't even write short fiction. But you never know.
B
You never know.
A
You never know. Thank you so much, Kitty. This was so fun. Thank you for this beautiful novel and getting to go back to school when it's still summer without all the stress. So thank you for that and for all you do to elevate voices and everything. So thank you.
B
Same. I really, really enjoyed this. Thank you.
A
All right, thank you so much. Okay, bye.
B
Bye.
A
Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and Spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books. Hey, folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF Today. I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile offering reliable nation nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked. Boost Mobile offers the coverage, network speed and service you're used to, but at more affordable prices. Why pay more if you don't have to? You can get an unlimited plan for $25 a month that will never increase in price, ever. No price hikes, no multi line requirements, no stress. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them online@boostmobile.com After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 per month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan.
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Ready to order?
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Everything.
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Guest: Kitty Zeldis
Episode: “ONE OF THEM: A Novel”
Date: September 9, 2025
Host: Zibby Owens
This episode features an in-depth conversation between host Zibby Owens and author Kitty Zeldis about Zeldis’s new novel, One of Them. The discussion centers around themes of identity, assimilation, prejudice, and female friendship, all set within the historical context of 1940s America. Zibby and Kitty also explore Zeldis’s writing process, her personal connections to her work, and advice for aspiring writers. The tone is candid, thoughtful, and gently humorous.
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