Laurie Frankel’s hilarious take on aging in Enormous Wings

Summary

Totally Booked with Zibby — Episode Summary

Episode: Laurie Frankel’s Hilarious Take on Aging in Enormous Wings
Host: Zibby Owens
Guest: Laurie Frankel
Date: May 6, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Totally Booked with Zibby features beloved author Laurie Frankel discussing her latest novel, Enormous Wings. Zibby and Laurie dive into the book’s unconventional premise—a 77-year-old grandmother becomes pregnant while living in a retirement community. The conversation explores themes of aging, bodily autonomy, friendship, agency, Jewish identity, love, and the way humor and family intersect in Frankel’s writing style. The episode is rich with insights on how fiction can open complicated conversations, especially around hot-button issues, all delivered in Frankel’s trademark wit and warmth.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Enormous Wings and Its Premise

• [05:47] Laurie Frankel summarizes the story:
  “The elevator pitch is: It's about a 77-year-old grandmother whose adult children move her into a retirement community against her will...where she is surprised and delighted to make friends and also fall in love. But then she gets sick. But when she goes to the doctor, she finds out she is not ill, she's pregnant.”

• Zibby’s Initial Reaction:
  Zibby shares her delight and surprise at the book’s early twist, admitting she avoids reading back covers and likes going in cold:
  “When she gets pregnant… I was like, wait, what?...I did not see that coming.” [06:10]

2. Inspiration & Social Relevance

• Personal Roots and Timeliness [07:08]:
  Laurie explains the inspiration came from a joke she made to her own grandmother, who became ill in her 80s:
  “Her symptoms were very like…she was nauseous, and…her brain was really fuzzy. And I had said to her, ‘gosh, maybe you’re pregnant.’”
  The book also responds to evolving abortion laws in America, which changed drastically during the time between the book's initial draft (2017) and rewrite (2023).

• Why Revisit Now? [09:43]:
  Laurie describes how rewriting the novel post-Dobbs decision (which overturned Roe v. Wade) made the premise more urgent:
  “One of the things that happened…is for many, many people in this country…abortion is no longer an option. That makes that complication even more complicated and difficult.”

3. On Tackling Polarizing Topics Through Fiction

• Complicated Questions, Not Simple Answers [11:03]:
  Laurie admits her perpetual state of worry about how the book will be received but hopes literature can create space for deep, nuanced dialogue:
  “It's a spectrum of issues. It's not one thing or the other thing. … Let's talk about it. It's complicated and difficult. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.”
• Relating Family Dynamics to Agency:
  Laurie draws parallels between making choices for aging parents and for pregnant people:
  “Lots of people who identify as pro-choice…are needing to make decisions on behalf of their parents' lives and autonomy and bodies…”

4. Beyond the Political—Family, Love, Survival

• Zibby Clarifies the Book’s Breadth [13:53]:
  Zibby emphasizes Enormous Wings isn’t “an abortion book”—it’s about family, resilience, humor, love, and starting over:
  “This is a book about family…love, survival, resilience, friendship, humor…starting over. It has all the elements.”

• Cancer & Loss [13:53]:
  The story also depicts cancer’s impact, exploring both the main character and another in the community, reflecting real-family struggles.

5. The Realities—and Joy—of Aging

• Love & Sex Among the Elderly [19:44]:
  Laurie spotlights love and sexuality at an older age:
  “Not actually in the world, just on the page…lots of elderly people are falling in love in retirement communities, and lots of them are having sex. We just don’t like to talk about it.”
• Retirement Communities as Narrative Setting [21:23]:
  Laurie loves the “closed system” of the retirement community—“put them all in a building together and see what happens. And I’m here for that.”

6. Friendship, Community, and Freedom in Later Life

• Finding Friendship Anew [22:38]:
  Zibby highlights how Pepper becomes “the new girl” and must make new friends, underlining you “never have to give up…making new, fabulous friends.”
• On the Freedom of Aging [23:18]:
  Laurie reframes aging as an opening, not a closing:
  “Your life opens up in lots of ways…if all of that [responsibility] goes away…in a lot of ways, I think that’s very freeing. You just get to be who you are. …Nobody looks anything like the beauty ideal. So great, you can get rid of that and instead just be who you are.”

7. The Writing Process: From Drawer to Final Draft

• A Decade-Long Journey [26:27]:
  Laurie describes how the novel was first written in 2017, then completely rewritten:
  “I do not believe a single sentence remains…from the 2017 version to this version. I didn’t edit it. I opened a new document. I wrote it completely from scratch.”
• Narrative Perspective Evolution:
  The book shifted between multiple narrators and points of view before settling into a first-person voice, which she credits for “finally mak[ing] this book work.”

8. Jewish Identity and Responses to Anti-Semitism

• Jewish Community, Conversation, and Culture [29:53]:
  Laurie discusses why Pepper is Jewish and addresses possible concerns:
  “Of the things that I think are gonna piss people off about this book, [being Jewish is] probably on the list, but…it’s fairly low down.”
  She praises the Jewish cultural willingness to debate:
  “To me, I think that’s just the greatest compliment because it means at least one of those Jews is able to hold diverging opinions in their head at the same time…let’s talk about it. … I think Jewish culture does that really well.”

9. Book Clubs, Conversation Starters, and Hopes for the Book

• [31:40] Zibby:
  “A book like this with so many things to talk about and debate and whatever is like, perfect book club fodder. …It opens questions instead of shutting it down.”
• [32:02] Laurie:
  “That’s always what I want. …I want to give you something to talk about.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On writing a “weird“ book:
  “It’s a weird book. …As it’s starting to make its way in the world, I’m definitely holding my breath to see how people respond to it.”
  — Laurie Frankel [05:23]

• On aging and beauty standards:
  “Once upon a time, some people were closer to the beauty ideal than others…At 77, nobody looks anything like the beauty ideal. …You can get rid of that and instead just be who you are.”
  — Laurie Frankel [24:58]

• On agency and end-of-life decisions:
  “One could be super pro choice and also say to their parents, ‘I don’t care what you want. You have to go live in this home for reasons which everyone would understand and support.’ …That connection just seemed really, really interesting to me.”
  — Laurie Frankel [11:03]

• On joy in later life:
  “We don’t have to give up. You don’t have to give up at a certain age just because maybe you don’t drive as well.”
  — Zibby Owens [21:23]

• On the book club potential:
  “If everyone just shows up and it’s like, ‘Oh, that was really awesome,’ then there’s nothing to talk about. I also want to give you something to talk about.” — Laurie Frankel [32:02]

• Zibby’s enthusiasm:
  “I just can’t wait for it to come out and for everybody to discover it and discuss it and laugh and cry and all the things. …I just loved it.”
  — Zibby Owens [32:40]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [05:47] — Laurie describes the elevator pitch for Enormous Wings
• [07:08] — Inspiration rooted in family experience and social changes
• [11:03] — The challenge and necessity of exploring complicated political and personal issues
• [13:53] — Zibby reframes the book as about family, love, and friendship
• [19:44] — Laurie discusses the importance of stories about aging, sex, and love later in life
• [22:38] — Friendship and reinvention in retirement
• [26:27] — Laurie’s writing process and evolution of the manuscript
• [29:53] — Jewish identity in the novel and cultural conversation
• [31:40] — Book club readiness and narrative complexity

---

Tone & Style

The conversation is upbeat, warm, and frequently humorous, reflecting both Zibby's enthusiastic, book-loving style and Laurie Frankel's sharp wit and openness. The episode moves fluidly from serious issues (bodily autonomy, aging, abortion laws, Jewish identity) to moments of literary joy and celebration of the unexpected.

---

Summary

In this engaging conversation, Laurie Frankel and Zibby Owens explore the making and meaning of Enormous Wings, a novel that’s as daring in its premise as it is sensitive in its execution. Frankel’s depiction of new love and friendship in the later years, combined with a plot that catalyzes debate about agency, aging, and choice, ensures the book is “book-club gold.” Through personal anecdotes, craft talk, and sharp cultural commentary, the episode offers both book lovers and literary-minded listeners a rich entry point into an original, big-hearted novel.

---

For more insider book talk, follow @totallybookedwithzibby and visit zibbymedia.com.

Transcript

[Chase Sapphire Reserve Advertiser]

This is a vacation with Chase Sapphire Reserve the butler the spa. This is the Edit a collection of handpicked luxury hotels and a $500 Edit credit Chase Sapphire Reserve now even more rewarding.

[Laurie Frankel]

Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.

[Grow Therapy Advertiser]

The to do list doesn't stop, and neither does the pressure to keep up with it if you've been running on fumes, GrowTherapy makes it easier to find care that's covered by insurance and actually built around you, whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th. Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sara Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com acast today to get started. That's growthherapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Zibby Owens]

Today's episode is sponsored by Nutrafol. Do you know that feeling when you're brushing your hair and somehow it just looks a little thinner than usual, maybe a little less full? And you're like, what is going on here? Well, Nutrafol supports hair health from within, helping you grow stronger, visibly thicker hair so that those moments happen less often where you're worried about your hair. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists and by the way, personally by me? This is the brand that I trust. Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. Order online, no prescription needed, with automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. Plus, with a Nutrafol subscription, you can save up to 20% and get added perks to support your hair health journey. So let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster growing hair in three to six months Nutrafol For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrafol.com and enter promo code ZIBBY Z I b b y. That's Nutrafol.com spelled N u T R-A F o L.com promo code ZIBBY Enjoy. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibeowens Laurie Frankel's book Enormous Wings is one of my favorites for this whole season. I loved it.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

You'll hear me gushing to Laurie Frankel about it. Laurie's previous book, Family Family was one of my Zibby's book club picks and I just love her as an author because she has the best quick wit,

[Zibby Owens]

sense of humor, sense of story.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

Her observations about family and relationships are really second to none. And I thought that this book, I've talked about it to so many people since I've read it, is so original and so good. Anyway, listen to us talk about it. Laurie's already a New York Times bestselling and award winning author not only of Family Family but also of 1, 2, 3, goodbye for now, the Atlas of Love and the Reese's Book Club Pick. This is how it Always is. Laurie lives in Seattle with her husb and daughter and border collie. And I hope you love Enormous Wings as much as I did.

[Zibby Owens]

Welcome Laurie. Thank you so much for coming back on Totally Book to talk about enormous wings. Congratulations.

[Laurie Frankel]

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me back. I love to do this podcast.

[Zibby Owens]

Laurie, I loved this book so much. I loved it. I like lingered over every sentence. You're so funny. Everything. I mean, the witness, not to mention the plot and everything else and the story. But I loved it. I just loved it. I keep like holding it and your publicist accidentally sent me two copies. And so I had one in my son's room where I always put him to bed and one in my room and at night he would go to bed like hugging enormous wings. And now we have a whole thing like enormous wings and I give him the book.

[Laurie Frankel]

That is so amazing and so sweet and I love it and I'M thrilled. And thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh my gosh.

[Laurie Frankel]

So glad.

[Zibby Owens]

It's just so good. And even the way you weave the title in all throughout the book and the way at the end. Oh my gosh, it's just. Anyway, the full circle of it all, it was. Okay, tell me.

[Laurie Frankel]

Thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

I'll stop.

[Laurie Frankel]

Like, I mean, listen, not on my account. Don't stop. But I'm so thrilled. It's a weird book. And so as it's starting to make its way in the world, I'm definitely holding my breath to see how people respond to it. And I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. It means the world to me.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh, my gosh. No, it's so good and creative and funny and just. Anyway, okay, tell everybody what it's nap. Tell everybody what it's snap.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes. Okay. Okay. So the elevator pitches. It's about a 77 year old grandmother whose adult children move her into a retirement community against her will and better judgment, where she is surprised and delighted to make friends and also fall in love. But then she gets sick. But when she goes to the doctor, she finds out she is not ill, she's pregnant.

[Zibby Owens]

Unbelievable. By the way, when, when I started it, I don't like reading the back cover. Like, I know I say yes, and then like, I forget. And then I'm like, I'm just gonna go in cold. So when she gets pregnant, I was like, wait, what? Even though it's fairly early on, I was like, I did not see that coming.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes, right. I mean, it's very, It's a thing that me. So first of all, me too, by the way. I never read the back of the book. I never read reviews because I don't want to know anything going in. And so it was really a debate about how much to share about this, but it's really not a spoiler because it happens very early. And mostly we thought, gosh, there's no way we'll be able to keep this secret, so we might as well lean into it instead of away from it, basically. And I, you know, and I think it really is the premise of the book. So.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah, no, no, you have to tell. I mean, it was. Yes, you have to tell me, but I'm with you.

[Laurie Frankel]

I read the same way and for the same reason.

[Zibby Owens]

Where did this come from? Where did this. Did it just. Yeah, tell me about where this came from.

[Laurie Frankel]

I mean, right? It's really. I mean, it's one of those things where you're like, gosh, why did I think of that weird idea. There are of course, any number of answers to that question. The simple one is that when my own grandmother got sick with what we eventually learned was cancer, and I was at the time in my mid-20s and, and her symptoms were very like, she was nauseous and she just kind of felt off and weird and her brain was really fuzzy. And I had said to her, gosh, maybe you're pregnant. And it was on my mind at the time because I was in my 20s and, and in graduate school and it was, it was just a thing that there was sort of the, the kind of canned joke response to anybody who said anything like, oh, I have a headache. Oh, I'm really thirsty. Oh, I feel so hungry. You're like, oh, maybe you're pregnant. And for me, if I had been pregnant in my 20s, that would have been a very hard, difficult, unfortunate thing. Whereas if my grandmother had been pregnant, that would have been fantastic. It would definitely, definitely have been much, much better than cancer, which she came by. Honestly, she was 85 at the time and, you know, had been smoking a pack of cigarettes a day since she was in high school. So in fact, she did pretty well for herself as far as that was concerned. But that, that idea stuck with me and you know, and then 25 more years passed and I turned 50. And one of the things that happened is that. I don't know how I want to say this, but, well, when I was in my 20s, if I had gotten pregnant and didn't want to be, I could have had an abortion. And 25 years later, that's not true for many, many people in this country. And that makes that complication even more complicated and difficult. And so it stuck with me and seems like a good way into talking about this. I mean, I think it's also true that abortion in particular is one of those very divisive issues about which no one ever changes their mind. And we hear the same arguments from all sides over and over and over again. And as a novelist, I think those are the things that one is drawn to. Like, okay, if instead of having to fit it into a social media post, I had a whole book to think about this and talk about this in, then what else could we add here? And thinking about it from the point of view of a senior citizen makes it a very different conversation than of course, we otherwise ever have.

[Zibby Owens]

Well, the across state lines piece of it, that that is a rule, a law in certain places, which of course you want to raise awareness about. And what are the consequences of doing something like that? What are the risks? Who does it affect? What are the widespread. You know, it's not just you, is it? If you break a law, what does it mean? I mean, it raises so many issues, highlights so many parts of the decision making process, how people feel about it. Who is entitled to this? I mean, there's so many issues and you've picked like a very hot topic item, but you don't even realize that you're talking about it at first, right? Like it courses through very naturally because you're like, oh, well, what are the options when something like this happens? How do I go forward with it? And yet I feel like you're engaging in a topic that I feel like people. I mean, like, are you worried? I mean, I know you said earlier you were a little bit worried, but it didn't occur to me almost till the end where I was like, huh, I wonder if people are going to object. What parts are they going to object to? Are people going to be able to read this as an exploration or a political statement?

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes. Short answer. Yes, I'm very worried. I mean, that really is my state of being. There's almost no point at which you could ask me, are you worried? And I'd be like, oh no, I'm not worried. I'm always worried. Me too. Though it wasn't until pretty late in this process that I realized how much of this conversation I was going to get in and kind of muck around in. In fact, I wrote this book the first time in 2017 and wrote it, I mean drafted, researched, revised, edited, polished the whole thing in 2017 and could not quite find an honest, persuasive way to convince you that this protagonist would do anything other than elect to have an abortion. And so I put it in a drawer and I took it out again in 2023 and moved it to Texas or any one of the other 13 states where abortion had in those intervening years become illegal. And that refocused, in addition to it bridged that plot hole, it also refocused the book where it was always meant to be on these issues of agency and bodily autonomy, which are very different for elders than non elders, never mind pregnant people and non pregnant people. And one of the things that I think is very interesting is that lots of people who identify as pro choice and are pro choice nonetheless are needing to make decisions on behalf of their parents lives and autonomy and bodies over often their own desires, because they don't for reasons that look an awful lot like the choices that people make. In pregnancy. And so that connection just seemed really, really interesting to me. That one could be super pro choice and also say to their parents, I don't care what you want. You have to go live in this home for reasons which everyone would understand and support. And so that's what seemed interesting to him, to me, is to be able to have these conversations from a different perspective, different point of view, so that wherever you align politically, wherever your opinions are on, on these issues, it's a spectrum of issues. It's not one thing or the other thing. There's all of this stuff in between, all this space in between. And let's talk about it. It's complicated and difficult. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. And that's what I always want in what I read and what I write. And. And it would be great if the discussion at large were more like that on more fronts. Seems to me.

[Zibby Owens]

Well, I don't want to make it seem like this is an abortion book, because it is absolutely not. This is a book about family. It is a book about love, survival, resilience, friendship, humor. I mean, starting over. It's all the things. Like, it has all the elements. Motherhood, like, basically down my checklist of things I look for. And these are all. All the issues. I mean, the storyline also about Moth's wife. I mean, it doesn't come that late, but Moth is a widower and his wife has died of cancer. And. And she is also. What is her name? Oh, my God, what is her name? Pepper Weasel, of course. No, Pepper. Of course. Pepper Mills. You're so funny. Oh, my God. No, I mean, every. Every other minute I was like, she's so. Pepper has gotten over cancer love, by the way, that her ex husband is in the same nursing home. Oh, my gosh. Like, that alone could have been enough for a novel. But how cancer affects a family, also an individual and a family and the sense of her body and how everybody responds. I mean, it's a really interesting granular interpretation of that particular experience, which I bet a lot of people will relate to. Today's episode is sponsored by Wayfair. After the fire in the Palisades, we had to redo our entire outside area. And we found the best stuff on Wayfair. We found adorable throw pillows that looked fabulous. We found one round carpet, one square carpet. We found coffee tables and all sorts of things that made our outside feel like home again. Wayfair is amazing because it has everything you could possibly need. And it's so easy to find. Wayfair made it so simple for us to narrow it down to what we wanted for our style and budget. It also features reviews, filters and visual tools that help us find the right fit. Every Style, Every Outdoor Space Whether your vibe is modern, coastal, farmhouse or eclectic, Wayfair has the options you need to help you create an outdoor space that's uniquely yours. And everything is in one place from outdoor seating and grills to storage, patio, lighting and rugs and decor. Which is what we got. Wayfair is your one stop shop for Home Plus. You can trust in the delivery, installation and assembly services are available for a truly seamless experience. It was so easy for us to order and receive all of our items. Plus over 20 million verified 5 star reviews helped me make the right call. Real customers, real feedback and real homes. You can also shop with Wayfair Verified, your shortcut to the good stuff. Their team of product specialists vets everything by hand using a 10 point quality inspection so you know you're getting a quality piece no matter your budget. Get prepped for patio season for way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F A I R.com Wayfair Every style every Home Wayfair Every

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

Style Every Home Today's episode is sponsored by Whatnot. Okay, so Whatnot is a live shopping platform where you can get items across all different divisions from beauty, apparel, bags and more. But what I have found is it is the perfect place to get kids birthday gifts. There are needos for those of you who don't know. Neatos are these little plastic toys which are all the craze people go neato hunting anyway. They have Neatos and squishies and every you can imagine for better prices than competitors. There are great deals and it is so fun to shop in this dynamic interactive platform.

[Zibby Owens]

My steals included a jellycat heart for $5.38 and jelly cat toasty marshmallows for $9.89. Not to mention a neato for $6.26.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

I'm not surprised that Whatnot is the largest live shopping marketplace in the country because it's a trusted shopping experience in format and There are over 10,000 fashion, beauty and bag sellers all over and you almost never pay full price, which of course is amazing. So let me tell you, I had the best time with my kids going on Whatnot and then there were things for me too. But it was more fun for them in my opinion. So download the Whatnot app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search whatnot wh a t n o t whatnot in the App Store and start scoring amazing deals.

[Grow Therapy Advertiser]

The to do list doesn't stop, and neither does the pressure to keep up with it if you've been running on fumes. Grow Therapy makes it easier to find care that's covered by insurance and actually built around you, whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th. Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started. That's growtherapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Laurie Frankel]

I hope so, and thank you for saying that. Yeah, this is the other beauty of novels, right? It's like they're, they're long. This book is actually the shortest book I've ever written. But it's, it's. They're expansive. You get to get into characters and backstories and histories, and it doesn't have to focus on an issue. It's also about. It's more about really all of these other things. It's in my mind, this book is centrally a love story and kind of an unusual love story, I think. Not actually in the world, just on the page. I think lots of elderly people are falling in love in retirement communities, and lots of them are having sex. We just don't like to. We don't like to talk about it. We don't read about it very often. We don't see it on screens very often. And that also, I think, is, I think, great. Yeah, Super. Let's talk about that, too.

[Zibby Owens]

Yes, I just finished reading this article. Annabel Gurwich, whose book we just published, just had this article come out and she has stage four cancer. And it's about how do you fall in love? Do you trust the process enough when you know your life is going to end? And so she, in the article she talks about instead of in love, she said, I feel very fondly about you. Let's all just feel like we're in fondly love or not in love, like feel fondly about each other. And it tracks so closely to this because it's like they're in a place where they're there for the long term, right? And what do they do next? And yet there's so much potential. Like life still gets to be lived and every day is like a gift. And the love that they find and like the knocking on the wall and the. I mean, it's just so precious and amazing and inspiring because it's like we don't have to give up. You don't have to give up at a certain age just because maybe you don't drive as well. I mean, I don't drive.

[Laurie Frankel]

Well, now you don't have to, but yeah, for sure. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for saying so. It turns out to be a really interesting setting to write about. Retirement community. It does a lot of things that I think fiction thrives on this like, closed system, the kind of desert island ness of it all. Like, we're putting all of these people who don't necessarily have anything in common. And in some cases, I mean, Pepper and her ex husband have actively chosen not to live together anymore. And it's like, nope, too bad. This is. We have decided this is what's best for you. And it probably is. And this is where you're going to live. You're all in this tiny, tiny community together. But. But over. I mean, some of them are 55 and some of them are 105 and with all wide variety of life experiences and history and coming from all sorts of places, a put them all in a. In a building together and see what happens. And I'm here for that. I want to see what happens.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh my gosh, so good. I can so see this being a movie, by the way.

[Laurie Frankel]

I hope so.

[Zibby Owens]

It's such a. I hope there's. I hope there's news on that soon. Me too.

[Laurie Frankel]

Me too. I hope so.

[Zibby Owens]

I also love that Pepper goes into this nursing home, serve as a new girl, right? And we all have that new girl experience and it doesn't ever go away. And she has to go make friends like so many people, whether you. You're a new mom or a new job or whatever it is. And there she is and she looks around and she's like, oh my gosh, I have to be friends with all these people. Like, what am I gonna do? And then you watch her make these fabulous friendships. Heartbreaking, beautiful, funny, close friendships that also end up driving part of the story of the book. And that's another way to shed light on what comes later and what you can never. What you never have to give up on is making new, fabulous friends.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I. And. And I think that one of the things that happens as. As some of the other responsibilities fall away, that is, like, I don't necessarily want to get cheesy about, like, oh, the older. The elderly are so wise. It's more just like, okay, if you don't have to go to work every day, if you don't have a career that you need to manage, if you don't have small children that you need to manage, then your life opens up in lots of ways. And I think that frequently the language surrounding that is one of closing down. And that's a way to look at it. But I think another way to look at it is know it. It opens up. So you. You get all of that being the new kid, but without some of the pressures that went along with it. Like, you're starting college or high school, God help you, middle school, and you have to make friends with all these people, and you're trying to manage all sorts of other things about your life and your appearance and the way you present to the world and, you know, never mind, okay, when your own kid is going to middle school or preschool, and then you have all, you want to make friends, but also you're scheduled within an interview or life is, you know, or the workplace, you want to present well, you want to manage your career, you want to move up in the ranks, you want to eat like you. You have to keep this job because, you know, because you need health insurance, because you need a salary. If all of that goes away, then in a lot of ways, I think that's very freeing. And you just get to be who you are. And I do think that by that age, lots of people are done posturing. One of the things that Pepper keeps observing is once upon a time, some people were closer to the beauty ideal than others and looked more like people on television than others. And, like, that was a whole thing. Well, at 77, nobody looks anything like the beauty ideal. Nobody looks anything like the influencers or the people on tv. So great, you can get rid of that and instead just be who you are. And this enables her to make really, really good, funny, interesting friends really quickly.

[Zibby Owens]

My grandmother used to joke. She's like, nobody ever said I looked great until I turned 90.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes, exactly. Yes, that's really funny.

[Zibby Owens]

Everywhere I go, you know, she, like, was very stylish, red lipstick, you know, Big statement necklace, always put together with her, you know, salon, gray hair, all style, you know, and she's like, you know, literally never a compliment until now.

[Laurie Frankel]

So I had that grandmother. I had exactly that grandmother.

[Zibby Owens]

Maybe they. Maybe they are friends somewhere.

[Laurie Frankel]

Maybe.

[Zibby Owens]

I hope so. Tell me a little bit more about writing the book. You put it in a drawer. I find that so interesting. And then you took it out and you went back into it. Were there any characters who you totally changed when you went back in? Did you keep all the characters as is? And were there scenes where you were writing and you were like, this is just the best writing day? And it was because such and such a scene was written? Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

It's a really interesting question. And this isn't something that I would recommend because. Because I really had this entire book written and then put it away. And what it's meant, among other things, is It'll be almost 10 years from my start, from word one to publication. Nevermind the fact that I had this idea, though not in novel form, two and a half decades ago. And so it's definitely been a long haul. It's very interesting. I do not believe a single sentence remains. I do not think I left a single sentence intact from the 2017 version to this version. I didn't edit it. I opened a new document. I wrote it completely from scratch. I didn't even really look very hard again at that 2017, when in fact I started to. And I was marking all sorts of things like, oh, this scene is really good and this paragraph is so beautiful. And oh, this simile is amazing. I have to keep it. And I realized it was going to be. It was too hard. I couldn't keep it all in my head at the same time. The only thing to do is to start from scratch. Most of the characters, though, that are in this version are in that version. Number of the characters from that version didn't make this version. But almost no one who's in this version, except for really, really the minor est of characters, wasn't in that version in 2017, which is interesting. And then I reread it from scratch. And I reread it from scratch several times. For a while, I was having it narrated in by a variety of characters. Like sometimes it was Pepper, but sometimes it was her children, and sometimes it was their children or various and sundry other minor characters. And I was kind of flitting among them and that wasn't working. So then I stuck to Pepper, but I kept it in the third person and that wasn't Working. And so eventually I went back and put it in first person, which you sort of have this fantasy of like, oh, I'll just search for all the she's and replace with I's and be done with it. But no, no, no, it evolved, rewriting the entire thing, which, of course is why it wasn't working. You know, if it had been working, it would have worked anyway, regardless of the point of view. Changing it to the first person meant changing all sorts of things. And that's what finally made this book work. And in the beginning of this round of the 2023, I wanted it to be really short. I don't know why. I had it in my head that it would be a really interesting, like, 200 page novel. And I just couldn't get it done. The more I wrote it, the more interesting it got and the more I wanted to hear about these characters and the reasons why and the explanations and all the people they met and, and their backstories and. And explore their relationships among one another a little bit more. And it's still, as I say, it's still the shortest book I've ever written. But it. It wasn't. It wasn't 200 pages anymore.

[Zibby Owens]

I loved also all the Jewish references in the book, the occasional Yiddish word or Hebrew word thrown in. I loved the holidays, Hanukkah coming early. I mean, like, all the things. Tell me a little bit about that. And do you have any reservations? You know, I know we're all aware of the climate and how, you know, Jewish authors have had a lot of pushback since October 7th and all of that. Do you have any reservations about putting a Jewish character out into the world or anything?

[Laurie Frankel]

So the second part of that question is back to yes, I'm worried about everything of the things that I think are gonna piss people off about this book, that's probably on the list, but it's, I would imagine, fairly low down. So I've sort of ranked my worries, I guess, in that way. The first question, like, why she was Jewish. You know, there's that. That kind of. I think it's a very common saying. In fact, I think it's meant to be a little bit pejorative almost about. You have two Jews and a Roman. You have three opinions. And I think that that's meant to suggest that, I don't know, the Jews are really opinionated, I guess. And to me, I think that's just the greatest compliment because it means at least one of those Jews is able to hold diverging opinions in their Head at the same time. And indeed, I think Jewish people like the Jewish culture, I guess I'm gonna say, does that really well to think critically about ideas that don't necessarily go together. And as I say that, that is what where I came into this book, but it's also where I come into all books. Like, I just think this is what fiction is for, is to take issues that are so often presented to us as black and white or cut and dry or, you know, you are this side or this side. There's no middle ground. There's no gray. You don't get to change your mind, sign up for one or the other. And I think that polarization is serving no one. And so to put it instead, ground it within a cultural tradition of great, let's talk about it. Let's run our mouths about that for 300 pages and see where it gets us. Let's have a conversation. I think it's a really, really good thing.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah, I agree. And by the way, a book like this with so many things to talk about and debate and whatever is like, perfect book club fodder. Right? This is like, it opens questions instead of shutting it down. There's no one interpretation. So that's also really fun in a book is, what do you think? And I think it'll inspire other people to have great conversations.

[Laurie Frankel]

I hope so. Thank you. I hope so. Yeah. And that's always what I want. That's what I want in a book. I get bored if there are good guys and bad guys and it's. And I just know from the beginning who is who. I get bored if there aren't interesting questions. I want to talk about this stuff. This is what novels suit up for, what novels are good at. That's. That's always what I want. And, you know, I think. I mean, I hope people will love this book. I hope that it is. I mean, I think it's very entertaining and, you know, compelling page turning, all of those things. But I do think that book club books, where everyone just shows up and it's like, oh, that was really awesome. Then there's nothing to talk about. I also want to give you something to talk about.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah, well, Laurie, I'm obsessed. It's so good. I just can't wait for it to come out and for everybody to discover it and discuss it and laugh and cry and all the things really, I just loved it. Anyway, sorry to come on a little strong here, but I just happen to love this book so much.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes. I mean, first of all, don't apologize. And second of all, obsessed. Obsessed is what we're going for. I love it. I feel like those are the best reading experiences where you're like, I have to bring this book with me to the grocery store because I love it. I'm thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to hear you telling me this. This is really great news.

[Zibby Owens]

Well, I'm going to follow up after because maybe there's a way you can come to one of our live events somewhere and at the store or New York or whatever, because I would love for everybody to read it.

[Laurie Frankel]

I would love that. I would love it so much. That'd be really great. Thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

Okay. All right. Thank you, Laura Zibby.

[Laurie Frankel]

You're amazing. Thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

Thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review. Follow me on Instagram Iby Owens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

[Chase Sapphire Reserve Advertiser]

This is a vacation with Chase Sapphire Reserve, the butler who knows your name. This is the robe, the view, the steam from your morning coffee. This is the complimentary breakfast on the balcony, the beach with no one else on it. This is the edit, a collection of hand picked luxury hotels you can access with Chase Sapphire Reserve and a 500 edit credit that gets you closer to all of it. Chase Sapphire Reserve now even more rewarding.

[Laurie Frankel]

Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.

[Zibby Owens]

When you've done the work, you want your hydration to do the same. Introducing new Gatorade. Lower sugar now with no artificial flavors, sweeteners or colors. And 75% less sugar. And all the electrolytes of regular Gatorade now available nationwide.

[Chase Sapphire Reserve Advertiser]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Taryn and Cami]

Do you want to know the best part about being married to a woman?

[Zibby Owens]

That there's no man involved.

[Taryn and Cami]

I mean, true, but I was going to say that it's a sleepover every single night with your best friend.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh, yeah, that part's cute, too.

[Taryn and Cami]

I'm Taryn. She's Cami.

[Laurie Frankel]

We're married.

[Taryn and Cami]

And staying up is our weekly pillow talk out loud with you.

[Grow Therapy Advertiser]

We're giggling, we're gossiping, we're arguing.

[Taryn and Cami]

Classic marriage stuff. Just having fun being wives while we navigate growing up and building a family together.

[Zibby Owens]

Then our sleepover grows. Our listeners call the PP hotline with

[Grow Therapy Advertiser]

their own gossip burning questions, late night

[Zibby Owens]

spirals all the stuff they'd only tell their best friends.

[Taryn and Cami]

So it's a private sleepover, but you are invited staying up with Taryn and Cami. New episodes weekly follow wherever you listen.

[Chase Sapphire Reserve Advertiser]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.