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Totally Booked with Zibby
Lisa A. Phillips, FIRST LOVE: Guiding Teens Through Relationships and Heartbreak
00:26:46
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- [00:00]
Zibby Owens
Are you interested in being part of the live studio audience while I film a series for Totally Booked with Zibby Live in New York City? Sign up@zibbyowens.com I have a little Google form that you can fill out and if you get selected, you can come sit in the audience, hear from authors before their books have even come out, and be a part of the show again. Go to zibbyowens.com Filmings will be on April 16th, 23rd, 30th and May 7th in New York City. Be a part of it.
- [00:40]
Jenna Bush Hager
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- [01:09]
BetterHelp
BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now what? Wherever you are to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com random podcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.
- [01:53]
Jenna Bush Hager
Hey everyone, I'm Jenna Bush Hager from the Today show and I'm excited to share my podcast Open Book with Jenna. It is back for season two. Each week, celebrities, experts, friends and authors will share candid stories with me about their lives and new projects. Guests like Rebecca Yarros, Kristin Hannah, Ego Wodom, and more. Like a good book, you'll leave feeling inspired and entertained. Join me for podcast Open Book with Jenna to start listening. Just search Open Book with Jenna wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:24]
Zibby Owens
Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think.
- [02:40]
Lisa A. Phillips
Is worth your time.
- [02:42]
Zibby Owens
As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbemedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibyoans. Lisa A. Phillips is the author of First Guiding Teens through relationships and heartbreak. Lisa has written about relationships, mental health and teens for the New York Times, the Washington Post, long Reads, Psychology Today, Cosmopolitan, Salon, and other outlets. She teaches journalism and the popular Love and Heartbreak Seminar at the State University of New York at New Paltz. She's published two previous books, Unrequited the Thinking Woman's Guide to Romantic Obsession and Public Radio behind the Voices. She began her journalism career in public radio, working for radio stations in the Midwest and Northeast for more than a decade. Lisa now lives in New York's Hudson Valley.
- [03:43]
Lisa A. Phillips
Welcome, Lisa. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about first love guiding teens through relationships and heartbreak. Congratulations.
- [03:52]
Thank you so much for having me.
- [03:54]
It's my pleasure. As a mom of two almost 18 year olds and an 11 and 10 year old, I am in this world, obviously, like so many friends of mine. And this is a topic that a lot of us talk about. How do we help our kids through these things? Where is the guidebook? How do we do it? And how much it kind of breaks our own hearts whenever anything happens to a child of ours and brings back our own memories, all of which you write about in this book about your own story and everything. Tell listeners a little bit about your book and furthermore, like how we can help our kids better through this life stage where we can't, we can no longer put, you know, child safety things around the table and protect them. It's just they're out there.
- [04:37]
Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. They are out there. What do we do? So just to give an overview of what the book is, First Love is a book that chronicles the challenges that teens face as they navigate the world of dating, situationships, crushes, breakups, and all other forms of the joy and the devastation of first romantic experiences. And it also chronicles the challenges parents face both internally as human beings and also as parents doing parenting things and trying to be there to support their kids during this time. And these challenges are really unique. So to respond to the question of how we can help our kids, there's tons to say about that in the book and we can go over a lot of that in this conversation. But I would say the first and biggest step that I would want to emphasize is to not be afraid of talking about relationships with teens. I think we are all very primed to know we need to have the sex conversation and the multiple conversations about sexuality, sex, consent, all that stuff, safety. But we're not as primed to talk about the emotional dimensions of relationships. And this can really scare parents because we remember how hard it was when we were teens, and teens often will really push back and say that this is a private matter. But there really are a lot of ways from the time children are young through the teen years into young adulthood and beyond that, we can keep a conversation going with our children about the emotional dimensions of relationships.
- [06:26]
So you tell us the story through your own lens, which I appreciate. You talk about your daughter, who at the beginning of the book was in a relationship with a neighbor's boy, and then sadly, by the end has had her heart broken. And I felt so bad. And at the beginning she was so done. And at the end she was saying, you know, all those plans that we never get to live. And you called it, you know, like relationship grief, which it absolutely is, you know, trying to wrap your mind around a future that you thought was happening. And that suddenly, not only were you not with this person, but, like, your whole life, the way you saw it, is gone. And this is something that can happen, by the way, to grownups, obviously, as well. This is not just a kid thing. How do we handle that particular piece of heartbreak, right, that your daughter went through, that we have probably all gone through at one point or another.
- [07:15]
I think first we need to be in touch with the paradox that you point out, that I point out in my book, which is that Even though every 13, 14, 19 year old knows that the relationship they're having now is unlikely to be a forever relationship, happens sometimes, but really rarely, Even though they know that their heart, their brain, their body, they don't know that. And so when a relationship ends, it is a really profound experience of grief for some teens. It's the first experience of real loss that they have in their lives. And so it hits really hard. So as parents and as anybody who has a teen in their lives, we need to avoid the tendency to make it small, which we all want to do, because it's like that thing we do with really little kids. They fall, they have a little bruise on their knee. We want to encourage the resilience. Get up, keep playing. You know, it's not that bad. And that really helps at that age. But with this kind of grief, the validation piece is really, really important. They need to know that they are undergoing really a primal experience. We are wired to react strongly when we're rejected. It means being cast away from the ancient fire circle. It means all kinds of things. It means losing that concentrate of resources and attention that a partner does provide, really, at any age, even if it seems Like a starter relationship. This person had been devoted to you. Now they're not. It's a big, big deal. And so the validation is really huge because it sends the message that our hearts need care when we go through these really rough times. And then beyond that, there are some other sort of more concrete strategies. There are a number of them in the book. The one that I often like to put fourth is that when you're helping a child through this grief, you want to keep in mind that there's like the big grief. And then often as they're dealing with the preoccupation and the weight of the big grief, that parents can be really good at helping their children solve the small problems. How do I get my sweatshirt back from my ex's house? How do I change my after school work shift to avoid this person for a time? You know, how do I deal with the fact that this person is in math class with me? Like really concrete things that may seem small, but they help bring a teen back to their power over the situation. Some degree of agency and efficacy, some degree of I can move forward in my life. That can be very powerful.
- [10:01]
What do you do, though? I mean, that's the hardest part about these years. You know, not just teens, but younger kids with crushes, which you also talk about in the book. And by the way, I did not know the origin of the word crush. I found that so interesting. Can you explain that?
- [10:16]
Oh, it's so delightful. This was a term that came up in the 19th century to describe what happens at balls and other social events where you go and there's going to be a lot of people and it's going to be a crowded place and no matter what social mores there are around touch at that time, presumably between the sexes, that okay, maybe you're going to brush up against this person you want to attract in this socially sanctioned way, this crowded ballroom. So I think this translates so perfectly to, you know, what we hope for in a crush when we have crushes today. Oh my gosh.
- [10:55]
Yeah, I just, I just always assumed it was because you're going to get crushed yourself. But to know it, yes, for something physical.
- [11:03]
And we can still assume that so many parents would say things to me like, okay, my, my child finally confessed his admiration to his cr and she said no. And he was crushed and I was crushed. And it means that feeling of like.
- [11:18]
Crushed, flattened, devastated are there, you know, I was just asking about, you know, the fact that when we are grown ups and we have hearts broken or whatever you might Never see that person again. Right. That could be the end of it. But in for young kids, they are often in math class or whatever, as you said, with the people having to get, like, almost retriggered over and over and over again like, constantly. And they don't have the power to just get out of the situation. You know, it's not like they can take another train and avoid the person that they see, you know, it's. They're sort of stuck. So I love that you say we should give them specific help with situations like that, but what is something helpful aside from, you know, look the other way? I mean, what. What can you do when the source of your pain is, like, sitting right in front of you?
- [12:06]
And it's even more than that. This is a generation marinating in social media. That's a big subject of conversation with parents. And in our culture, we're finding timely reckoning with how intense this is with the whole movement toward banning phones and social media in schools. And I think that this is the biggest thing that we have to acknowledge is that Math class is 247 when it comes to exposure to a crush that doesn't requite your feelings or an ex. And this is really, really difficult because the social media extends. You come home, you've got it on your phone. At any point, you can see that person who's rejected you wriggling in a TikTok or bathing in golden hour light on Instagram. And this is a very difficult way to come of age and to start a romantic life. So I think that along with all the conversations about limits on social media at school, we can try very hard because it's going to be difficult to provide the insight and the guidance that young people need, whether or not they follow it. Again, it's this whole, you know, whole other difficult thing to think about, like, all right, this person has rejected you. Getting off. Breaking up with them over social media is a really important step. And young people will push back because it feels like an admission of vulnerability to unfollow someone on Instagram and all the other apps. But one thing that I found is really effective with my students. I teach a college course called Love and Heartbreak is to point out to them that what happens on the Instagram feed, where they're constantly exposed to images of an ex or someone who's disappointed them, is exactly what brain scan research does to trigger feelings of grief in people who have recently been rejected by someone they love. Literally, this is what they do. They put them in the brain scan machine and they show them picture after picture of their ex. And when I teach the brain scan study in my classroom, I'll say, what does this remind you of? And they look at me like, what do you mean? I've never been in a brain scan machine or watched a brain scan laboratory do its thing. And then I start miming, scrolling through their phones and then they get the connection. It's like, this is, this is what they do. They are the subjects in brain scan imagery, more or less doing the things that the researchers do to make the rejected people cry and heart pound and grief and all these reactions. So I think that even if the child is wavering about whether to break up with the person who's rejected them over social media, you're giving them this really important data about when you jump on your phone and you're trying to get over this person, being on your phone and being exposed to the person's photos and other reminders of their presence is going to send you backwards. And so it's part of that information base. It's part of the way learning about love and heartbreak that is a powerful experience for young people. Parents and other caring adults can be the conduit to say, do you really want to be doing this to yourselves?
- [15:35]
Interesting.
- [15:40]
Jenna Bush Hager
Race the rudders. Race the sails. Raise the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger, Wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.
- [16:08]
BetterHelp
BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.
- [16:50]
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1,800Flowers.Com knows that a gift is never just a gift. A gift is an expression of everything you feel and helps build more meaningful relationships. 1-800-FLowers takes the pressure off by helping you navigate life's important moments by making it simple to find the perfect gift. From flowers and cookies to cake and chocolate, 1-800-flowers helps guide you in finding the right gift to say how you feel. To learn more, visit 1-800-flowers.com acast. That's 1-800-flowers. Com acast.
- [17:22]
Lisa A. Phillips
Yeah, in the book, you recommend that people stop following and block their exes so that they're not retriggered, which I found interesting because that's always a question, right? Keep following, don't follow.
- [17:33]
Yeah, yeah. It's a big question. It's a very hard thing for young people to do. But as part of this conversation about how phones are bad for learning, we can also infuse it with how phones are really bad for breakups.
- [17:46]
You also have a part towards the end about this sort of obsession, right? This thinking where you can almost be addicted. I'm trying to see if I can find this section. Oh, no, I kept dog earring. All these parts about you and David, your relationship, which I was like, halfway through, I was like, oh, my gosh, I hope they reunite. And then I won't give anything away. But anyway, as you know, you wrote about how you can be almost addicted and obsessive almost with your relationship because you can fall so hard and then you have withdrawal. Like, it's essentially a form of withdrawal when you break up. Can you talk more about that?
- [18:24]
Sure. It truly is one of the most influential researchers in love, a woman named Helen Fisher who died a few years ago. She's brilliant, and she was part of the team that did this brain scan research. She pointed out that and her research shows that romantic love is essentially a drive, like hunger and thirst and all these things. Of course, we don't need romantic love in that same fundamental way that we need to take a drink of water. But there is a lot in our physical responses that guide us toward romantic love. A lot of those obsessive feelings are indeed related to addiction. And the same areas in the brain are triggered, as are triggered in an addiction to cocaine or alcohol or other substances, which is a scary thing to think about. But it's a great addiction. When it's going well and you crave the person, you get to see them. And it's a really tough addiction when it's not and you're rejected. So knowing this and talking to young people about this reality of romantic love can be a little risky because they tend to be like, oh, I don't want to get addicted. And it means they'll like, throw the whole thing out like, no romantic love, I only want friendship. That is a big thing that I hear a lot from young people. But when romantic love does come into their lives, knowing that this is part of it can help you guide the young people in your lives to problem solve around it. So, for example, when you're Guiding a young person through a heartbreak, whatever way they let you into this, it's very important to help that young person get what I call brain breaks, where they're going to be super obsessed with the person who rejected them, the crush that didn't reject respond. And so it's important for them to be doing other things than dwelling on it. So things like if the young person in your life is going through a romantic disappointment, to just slip a few dollars in their hands and be like, go to the movies with a friend, go for a hike. Make sure you don't talk about this the whole time in the hike. You need to be talking about other things. It's really, really important because the more you're ruminating, rumination breeds more rumination. And that' that's also another bit gem of wisdom for parents, which is if you're digging in with the teen in your life and being like, oh, what a jerk, what did he do today? What'd she do? After school, at the diner, wherever your kids hang out, if they are hanging out, what'd they do on social media? That is a form of you're stirring up that pot of obsessiveness and rumination. And that is very rough because you think you're helping, but in fact you are stirring things up even more and keeping the young person mired in that state of addiction and rumination where it be a lot healthier to be like, hey, let's go to Sephora and try on makeup. Or let's, you know, go. Go do that thing you've been wanting to do. I have a daughter, so I always think in daughter ways. But a thing that a son may want to do and just going for the distraction, which really does help them because it gives them a breather from that. That constant influx of feelings and yearning and longing and addictive tendencies.
- [21:48]
I wonder if. And maybe kids don't feel like writing, but when I met with a trauma therapist or I watched her give a whole talk. Megan Riordan Jarvis, who deals with grief, right? And her whole thing was every time you tell a story about what's happened, you're re traumatizing yourself, right? If you talk about LA Fires, for instance, over and over each time, your brain is reliving it as if you're living the first time. So if you can write it down, your brain feels like. And tell me if this is science that you already know, obviously you probably do. But, you know, if you could just get it on paper, your brain doesn't feel like they need to hold onto it so tightly and then replay it all the time. So sometimes, like, the act of writing it down can be really helpful.
- [22:31]
I really like that. And what that links to in my research is this whole school of people who research breakup and recovering self concept after a breakup. And what these researchers found that if we can find a way to make meaning from an experience, to say, I fell in love, I got hurt, and I used it to figure out more about what I want in life, more about what I want in a partner, more about what I want and how to be treated. If it's an experience of learning and growth, if that's the way we can tell the story. And in this case, I love the insight of writing the story. I think that's a beautif to do it. That's been a big part of my own writing life. I think that what the research shows is that people get over breakups faster when they do that, as opposed to when they just stop and go, oh, this means I'm a terrible person. This means I'm not worthy of love. Or even if they go, oh, I have no idea why this happened. It was like a thunderbolt out of the blue. Those two ways of thinking about breakups are not as helpful for recovery, but making meaning out of it, what researchers call a redemption story, is.
- [23:42]
Is very interesting. I love that.
- [23:45]
Yeah, I love that too.
- [23:46]
How does your daughter feel about your writing about her in this book?
- [23:50]
Oh, that's. That's a wonderful question. So. So I have always informed my daughter and asked for her permission about what I do in my writing. For the whole time that I've been processing this material of my own reaction to her starting to date and so forth, I've let her know, okay, I'm writing about this, and I've always offered her the opportunity to read it. She's preferring, she's 20, preferring not to read it. But what I did was I talked her through all the ways that I talked about her in this book, and I was very careful to write about her relationships in a way that used them to raise broader themes as opposed to writing memoiristically about the nitty gritty details of every single relationship and thing. I didn't want the, the, the boys she dated to get hurt or feel exposed in any way. And I certainly didn't want her to feel hurt or exposed in any way. And she has been fine with it. And in fact, I do sense now that she's a junior in college that she's pretty proud of what I'm doing. She's impressed at the attention the book has gotten. And I'll add one more thing, which is she's really into this subject matter too. She is a trained peer consent educator at her college. She wants to be a couples therapist. So we actually kind of geek out on this stuff together when we get a chance and we share books and I love that part of our relationship. And not. That's been a real joy.
- [25:19]
That's so nice. My son forwarded me some Instagram thing that's like, you know, I'm so proud of my mom. I hope she knows. Da da da. And I was like, that's so nice. And I'm like crying. Anyway, it's so nice when our kids can grow up and like see what we do and be a fan. It's just so nice.
- [25:36]
It feels like a distinct developmental stage. Some kids get to it sooner than others. But this is the conversation that I've been having with my empty nest friends. It's like, oh, our kids are giving us some advice and they're asking how we are and they're showing care in a new way. And I've been trying to look for small ways to ask her for care because I've got an aging mother and our dynamic is shifting that way. I'm trying to offer and provide more care to her. So it is beautiful when kids do that.
- [26:08]
So to simplify a couple really helpful things that we as parents can do that can help our kids and this conversation is then going to help a whole group of people who don't even know we're talking about them is not letting kids ruminate and sort of listening maybe once empathizing and then like trying to put the conversations aside and distract and get them to engage in other things but validate all of their feelings at the same time. Acknowledging how hard it is. Does that sound about right?
- [26:39]
I provide a little bit of a clarification. I don't think there are sort of rules about how many times to listen. It's more art than science. But I think we all have the ability to know it when we see it, to get when you really are hearing the same. You've probably been in this experience either with your kids or with other people in your life where they're kind of going through the same story again and again. It's like this real feeling of circling back, circling back and not advancing it forward because we don't want to disrupt the meaning making aspect of the experience. And they're not necessarily going to have, have a lot of meeting Making tools on day one, but they might on day 60. So we want to be able to listen in that way. But if we sense, again, that circular thing where they're stuck in the same way of talking about it, it's kind of time to be like, hey, let's figure out what else we can do. And sometimes it's very simple. Sometimes it's like, hey, let's go outside for five minutes, think about a hot shower, temperature changes, small sensual pleasures, like smelling a new scent again, being outdoors to smell the spring. We're now in spring. Things like that can really make a difference. Amazingly excellent.
- [27:57]
Well, I think this is such a helpful book. I loved the personal narrative in it as well. I love this notion of, like, maybe the situations you found yourself in as a teen that were upsetting and, you know, the relationships, how maybe you didn't know what was going on with the other person. Like, I felt like that was really revelatory with your own relationship, that you can think that the other person. Like, you never know what's going on. I mean, this sounds so obvious, right? But, like, with your relationship, like, you didn't know all the hardships that were going on in, like, your ex's life and maybe what he was going through and how that fit in. And maybe he just wasn't mature enough. And anyway, you can look back and have that lens. But it's so. It's so important to know that for kids, for grownups like, you just don't know, it's not always about you. It can be about what's going on in something else related to them. That doesn't mean that you or your child has done anything wrong.
- [28:57]
Exactly. There's a wonderful researcher at Stony Brook University named Joanne Davila, who has a relationship workshop that I've been trained on and I frequently give. And she frames a breakup as when one person doesn't want one, what someone else has to offer. And what that does is it acknowledges that there's a whole world of you, a whole world of the other person. And that ultimately relationships are reciprocal. And when the other person doesn't want or can't want for whatever's going on in that person's life, what you have to offer there is no relationship. And this reframing I find young people greet with great relief because they often feel that relationships are either tribunal on the other person, the other person's worthless and mean and cold and cruel, or a judgment on themselves. I am not worthy. And so it kind of releases that whole framework and sure Maybe you're dating an awful person. Maybe you're an awful person. You're not going to be able necessarily to make those judgment calls all the time because you won't be able to know what's going on in their lives. The more important, important thing is, like, no matter who they are or what they are, they can't accept this thing that you're offering, which is really hard to accept. But that's what it is.
- [30:20]
Love it. Well, Lisa, thank you so much. First love guiding teens through relationships and heartbreak. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. And I wish I could take your class. Thank you.
- [30:32]
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
- [30:35]
Thanks for coming on.
- [30:36]
Zibby Owens
Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Siby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books.
- [30:41]
Jenna Bush Hager
Books.
- [30:42]
Zibby Owens
If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ippyowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
- [30:58]
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1-800-Flowers.Com knows that a gift is never just a gift. A gift is an expression of everything you feel and helps build more meaningful relationships. 1-800-FLowers takes the pressure off by helping you navigate life's important moments by making it simple to find the perfect gift. From flowers and cookies to cake and chocolate, 1-800-flowers helps guide you in finding the right gift to say how you feel. To learn more, visit 1-800-flowers.com acast that's 1-800-flowers.Com acast Everyone has a reason to change.
- [31:30]
Jenna Bush Hager
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