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- [00:01]
A
Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibbeowens Marie Benedict is the author of the Queen of Crimes, a novel. Marie is the New York Times and USA Today best selling author of the Mitford Affair, Her Hidden Genius, the mystery of Mrs. Christie, the only woman in the room, Lady Clementine, Carnegie's maid, the other Einstein and with Victoria Christopher Murray, who I'm also having on soon the Good Morning America Book Club pick, the Personal Librarian and the Target Book Club Pick of the Year. The First Ladies all have been translated into multiple languages and many have been selected for the Barnes and Noble Book Club, Target Book Club, Costco Book Club, Indy Next list and Library Reads list. She lives in Pittsburgh with her family. Welcome back Marie for coming on now called Totally Booked with Zibby. I don't even know what my show is.
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B
I love.
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A
Thank you. Thank you. Now we're talking about the queens of crime. So exciting. We've got some Agatha Christie. We got all these fabulous women. Oh my gosh. Tell everybody what it's about.
- [01:43]
B
So it is. Gosh, it is. It's a little bit of a departure for me and yet it's very much in keeping with what I have written in the past. It's a little bit of a genre bending story of the these five incredible golden age of mystery writers including as you mentioned, Agatha Christie and Dorothy Sers, who's really my main character. And the way in which these women band together to solve a very real life murder mystery, which is unbelievable but is actually true. And the way they band together and summon all kind of what we were talking about before, summon all of their various talents to, to restore justice. And it's a story I came to, I wrote another book about Agatha Christie. This is and that's a whole other story of why I'm so obsessed at that time these characters and when I found out that Dorothy Sayers, who was Agatha Christie's lifelong best, very close Friend, I don't want to say best, and that, you know, she was even involved in her disappearance, tried to help find her. But when I learned that she had actually been extremely involved in investigating the murder of this young British nurse, I was like, if that isn't a story, I don't know what is. And so of course I went down my. My rabbit hole where I love to live.
- [02:59]
A
When did you first find that, that thread of the story?
- [03:03]
B
It was when I was in the research for the MUR. The Mystery of Mrs. Christie, which is about Agatha Christie's 11 day real life disappearance. And this sense that I had that her vanishing was. She was too bright a woman, too skillful in the art of plotting to have just been a victim in her own finish. And, you know, I have been in love with this time period in these characters, these authors. That's who they all are. A bunch of authors really, since I was a young girl. When I was in middle school, I had this amazing aunt who was an English professor, a poet, she was a rebellious nun. And that, yes, that is a thing, especially during that time period, was really the one who kept me in books. And she loved this time period. She loved these writers. And so I was really steeped in them, that interwar world and the sense of women's ability to restore justice. And of course, once I sort of lifted up the veil to learn more about the authors behind the stories, I realized how incredible these women were in their own right.
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A
Wow. Well, you do such a good job of like drawing the reader in and I know that sounds overly simplistic, but by all the ways you use like, dialogue and the details, like you get us in, like the book opens up, we're at a tea, right, at a posh hotel and you're giving us, you know, different foods and cakes that they love and da, da, da. And Dorothy's reaction to Agatha and how she feels and will she open up and da, da. And honestly, like, I just started reading, I was like, oh, I'm like, in it immediately. Like, you're just. I was just so in it. And I'm sorry I didn't have the chance to finish the whole book. But that's okay.
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B
We won't get to the spoilers. That's okay.
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A
Okay, good, good, good.
- [04:53]
B
There are spoilers for sure.
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A
So how, like, from a craft and writing standpoint, how do you do that? Because, yes, you have to do all the research, but then you have to bring it to life.
- [05:02]
B
You know, it's. I read somewhere and I wish I could remember the author that wrote this, but it's like you have to go down that rabbit hole, which I talk about a lot, which is really my happy place with. And in this case, you know, it. Luckily for me, it involved not just historical documents and newspaper articles, it involved all these women's books. Because I do believe that we leave. And I don't think you may or may not agree with me, but I'm suspicious that you might agree with me that we leave pieces of ourselves behind in these stories, even if they're fiction. There's little bits of us, things we're working through, parts of our personalities, parts of other people's personalities. So I got to re immerse myself in the canon of these five incredible authors, mystery writers, and, and I sort of dive down in and swim in the waters of their world and then I step back out. And I'm not saying you forget the research, you bring it with you, but the threads start to appear when you're there. And then you just, instead of staying in the weeds, you try and stay in the story. But for me, this probably isn't true for everybody, but for me, the threads of this story appear in the research, the, you know, learning. I might read one line about Doroth, Agatha's favorite tea cakes, right? And suddenly I have a whole scene in my mind of them indulging in this lavish tea, right? And yet in that same moment I want to bring in the, one of the main threads of the story, which is that women wear masks, many people wear masks, but I'm, you know, I write about women, so it's about the masks we wear to survive, the masks we wear to thrive. And so while on one level it's a light hearted tea, on another level it's like, what mask are you wearing today? How. And then the thread of how are we going to propel the story further? How are we going to get these women to engage in this, what turns out to be one quest and then turns into another quest. But it's all there for me in the research. And then you kind of have to live in it and then kind of forget it while you live in the moment of the story. Otherwise, as I'm sure you've seen in a lot of deep, very detailed historical fiction, sometimes people get lost in the weeds and the reader gets lost too, right? Because it's a story above all else. And those, those threads are there to bring us into the moment in the setting, but we're not meant to get lost in the threads unless of Course, it's a heaping pile of, like, British tea cakes, which I personally could get lost in forever.
- [07:37]
A
Yes, it was a nice escape. Very much like I was not where I was, which was lovely.
- [07:44]
B
Good. And I mean that. That's in part what this is. I mean, yes, I hope that people see the bigger story and the bigger theme and the way in which women can band together to. To make enormous change and all the other threats of the story, but it also is meant to be the same kind of engrossing mystery that these women wrote. It's really an homage to them, an homage to my aunt who introduced me to this world. And yet, just like with these women whose stories on the surface seems like just mysteries, they only could get out these more complicated, sometimes controversial themes through these seemingly innocuous mysteries.
- [08:26]
A
Gosh, I love that. And I love what you were saying about the masks that women wear. Like what? And at the beginning, I realized you have a pseudonym yourself. So what masks? Like, what masks do you wear in your life?
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B
Oh, I wear a million masks. I think one of my, like, current and one of the reasons that this is such a theme in the book is because. Because I'm trying to shed my masks. Right. I think growing up, the time period I grew up, the world in which I lived, the masks were unconsciously encouraged. And so, you know, even though my love. Let's just take for example, I've always loved history and these hidden corners of history since that same aunt that introduced me to these, these women also started me on this other book, the Mists of Avalon, which was a retelling of the Arthurian legend from the women's perspective. I thought that's what I was going to do with my life. I thought I was going to become a historian, an archaeologist, you know, ferreting out these little corners. But that really wasn't encouraged. Right. And so I took my history major and I became a New York City commercial litigator for a decade because that mask was more pleasing, was more socially acceptable than someone who was trying to become a writer or thinking about history or any of these other parts of me that were down in there. And that's just one example. You know, I try very hard every day to not slip behind the mask and shut it and be more authentic. And writing the books that I write reminds me of that.
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A
Do you feel like as you get older, as you were saying, do you feel that when you show more of the real behind whatever else there is, it is well received? Or do you feel like there are people that it pushes away both.
- [10:12]
B
Both. I would definitely say a lot of my friends, and I'm one of six, and I have four sisters. We appreciate the mask shedding because I think a lot of us are in. In the life stage of shedding the masks, right? Definitely. There are people in my life who would prefer. It's easier, it's not challenging, it's more palatable. And what I've learned, as many of us have learned, is that you have to streamline. You know, it's healthier for me to be around people who really want to see me as me. And. And that if that has led to fewer friendships or different ways of interacting with people, you know, like, I love board games, and so now I do a lot of board games. You know, 10, 15 years ago, would that have been what I do with my friends? Maybe not. You know, there's. So there's a lot of that that's happening, and it's a process. And like you, I have kids and. And I want to show them that they don't need to be wearing masks, right? They can be exactly who they are, feel what they feel, pursue whatever path they want. And so I have children with wildly different interests, and that is something I celebrate and. And I hope feel safe enough to. To show and feel their feelings. So.
- [11:26]
A
Oh, I love that.
- [11:27]
B
That's one of my goals. And writing about these women helps me. I mean, I intentionally pick topics that are very pertinent to me that are very much about what I'm processing, what I'm feeling, and writing about it in that little distance of, you know, another character's eyes helps me process it, and I help. Helps readers process it too.
- [11:48]
A
And so what did you uncover? I mean, I obviously can't share the spoilers, but about Agatha Christie and some of these authors that. That you can share now that you are surprised about and all that.
- [12:03]
B
Well, there's one big secret, really. The main. It's Dorothy Sayers, who was, during her lifetime, as almost as popular as Agatha Christie. But like many of these golden age of mystery writers, their names have been forgotten. The authors have now their characters and their series live on. On PBS and BBC. They're part of this canon of, you know, these murder mysteries that they show. But what I learned was that the woman, the women behind the masks, right, were very, and yet very similar. They had to wear the masks to survive, right? And yet they are all hiding something deep within themselves, something very authentic. Now, the main character, Dorothy Sayers, she's hiding an enormous secret, which I won't say, but it is very much tied into the quest that these women find themselves on. The kind of gateway drug to the story was the fact that Dorothy Sayers, whose husband was an investigative journalist, they, in fact, did become involved in the coverage in the investigation into the murder of this young English nurse in a French seaside town. This nurse disappeared in circumstances that honestly seemed torn from the pages of their books. You know, she stepped into a restroom that had one entrance, exit one only. Her friend waited outside, and she never stepped out again. And she wasn't. Her body wasn't found for months afterwards. And there was a lot of newspaper coverage then. And when they found her body, which was fascinating for me as a researcher to go into the coverage and. And what I learned so much about this time period is that these women in the interwar years, who were working women. So this. These girls were nurses, right? They were nurses because this societally accepted path for them, which was marriage, was not available. There were very few men to marry because of the war, and they were reviled for. For this choice. And they were dubbed surplus women.
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A
And.
- [14:03]
B
And I learned so much about the attitudes, not just about this group, but other women in. In these newspaper articles and the way in which this murder was covered. And this marginalization of women, especially women who have made different choices, is very much a theme in the book and very much tied into Dorothy Sayre's own secret. They're intertwined. And uncovering these layers is in many ways analogous to the. Uncover the. The lifting of masks that these women do. The closer they get to the truth, the more they learn about each other, the more they learn about their. Their actual views about each other. I intentionally chose women who. And they really were friends, so it wasn't that hard. But women who were from different. Different parts of the country, different parts of the continent, different ages, different religions, different backgrounds, different socioeconomic strata of society, so that you could see that you don't all have to be the same to band together and do something good. And in fact, it is in these lifting of layers and these lifting of masks that allows these women to come together despite maybe because of their differences. And what they learn is that they're stronger than they thought. What they learn is that they have prejudices that they have to overcome. They have to share the way in which they have been marginalized, which is something that they've internalized as opposed to really come forward with. But I learned a lot about societal attitudes about women that, unfortunately, you still see in some capacity today. Some of the Newspaper coverage about this poor girl, you know, lambasted because she had a bobbed haircut, which was a sign of a loose woman, you know, you know, criticized because she chose to work instead of stay home and have a family, you know, and it didn't even have to be overt. Like, it was almost like code in these newspaper articles and in different descriptions. You still see that today. You really. And that's one of the things that always surprises me and saddens me is the way in which some of these historical attitudes really haven't shifted that much.
- [16:19]
A
It is hard to believe it's much.
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B
As much growth as we have had.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And, you know, these women are all a little bit outside the box. They're. They've all had success. They're all incredibly successful mystery writers in a field that's very dominated by women or by men. Excuse me, they're part of a club that's very dominated by men. And so these are. These are strong women to begin with. And yet there's something about banding together. And back to your question about, like, learning stuff at my age, at the age of my peers, like, I see that. Like, I see how crucial my friendships are, how necessary they are, not just for my growth as a person, but for the kind of work I want to do in the world overall. And these women see that, too. And again, it's just like, you know, parts of my life that are processing through. Through the lens of these. Some of these women love it.
- [17:14]
A
Okay, so what rabbit hole have you fallen into next?
- [17:18]
B
Oh, well, I do have. I guess I could say I have a. Yes, I have an incredible story coming out next in a year from now about. It's about 1920s England, Highclere Castle, setting of Downton Abbey, ancient Egypt and colonial Egypt. And it's a story that. It's about a woman who becomes an archeologist. It's about an ancient, really the only female pharaoh, Hatshepsut. And it's about the way in which the past reverberates into the present, like, in ways that we just don't often don't understand. Those threads, like, keep on coming through. And it's a place I've always wanted to be. I think I told you, like, I always wanted to be an archaeologist. And ancient Egypt was like, 100% my jam for a long time. And actually to envision this world, both that time, the 1920s colonial time period, and this ancient Egyptian time period about this queen, this pharaoh, who was systematically, physically erased from history. And we only learned of recently, really in this time has been just a gift. It's kind of returning to what I always envisioned I wanted to do and really very much a full circle first, A full circle moment for me. It's really been really wonderful.
- [18:46]
A
Wow. Well, I can see how excited you are, and you're, like, beaming, talking about it, so that is very exciting.
- [18:52]
B
You know, what's crazy is that, you know, if you are true to yourself and I, I, I'm sure you found this in the work you do and the force that you've become in publishing and, and more largely, when you pursue what you're meant to be doing, things start to fall into place. Right. And it's when we try and again, back to the masks, when we try and really squeeze our, our circle selves into square holes, like, it just, it never feels right. It never really takes and works. Whereas if you're pursuing those things that, that are really your authentic self, it does tend to align. You know, when I give talks in schools, especially like middle school, high school, I always ask the students, what are the things that they love right then? And when I talk to adult audiences, I ask them, what did you love at that time? Because it's very. What you're kind of called and meant to be doing is very often that thing. It's that thing that, that you loved and celebrated before kind of society in the world kind of took hold. And I see that even with the Queens of Crime. You know, I see them, they've, they've all tried other things and returned to writing and created this, this impossible life for themselves. And then they want to go out and take, take that power, take that, that what they've learned about themselves in the world, and then do something better with it. So I love that.
- [20:14]
A
Oh, my gosh. Well, Marie, thank you for coming on. Thank you for the Queens of Crime and the Escapist. Very immersive and of course, super well written, if that's even how I would say that book. Like all of your others, and very excited for the next one, too. Thank you for bearing with me today.
- [20:37]
B
Oh, my gosh, thank you for having me. It is such a treat and an honor. And thank you for all you're doing out there in the world.
- [20:43]
A
Thank you.
- [20:44]
B
Thank you. Great to see you.
- [20:46]
A
Thanks. Great to see you. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, Follow me on Instagram ippyowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.