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- [00:00]
Capital One Bank Announcer
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC
- [00:31]
Grow Therapy Advertiser
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- [01:35]
Zibby Owens
Today's episode is sponsored by Nutrafol. Do you know that feeling when you're brushing your hair and somehow it just looks a little thinner than usual, maybe a little less full? And you're like, what is going on here? Well, Nutrafol supports hair health from within, helping you grow stronger, visibly thicker hair so that those moments happen less often where you're worried about your hair. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists and by the way, personally by me. This is the brand that I trust. Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. Order online, no prescription needed, with automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. Plus, with a Nutrafol subscription, you can save up to 20% and get added perks to support your hair health journey. So let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol for a limited time Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrafol.com and enter promo code Zibby Z I B B Y. That's nutrafol.com spelled N U T R-A F O L.com promo code Zibby. Enjoy. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcasters, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram Ibbeowens Pam Sherman is an actor, writer, leadership consultant and recovering lawyer profiled in People magazine about her transition from lawyer to actor. Today, she speaks, facilitates and coaches leaders globally about finding their edge. Explore, dream, grow and excite. Her book is called Play you the Role of a Lifetime. Bridge the believability gap to boost your confidence, connection and impact. Welcome Pam. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about Play youy the Role of a Lifetime. Bridge the believability gap to boost your confidence, connection and impact. Congrats.
- [04:16]
Pam Sherman
Thank you. Can I just say, I love that cover?
- [04:19]
Zibby Owens
It's a great cover. It really is. It's so powerful and inspirational and shines a spotlight, which is what you do and what you are used to being in. So that's great.
- [04:31]
Pam Sherman
That's the whole point is to shine on others, right? Like that was the feeling I wanted people to get so that this would draw them in and realize that it's not about you at all. It's about everybody that you wish to impact, lead and serve. And so the COVID is really special to me. It needed to pop.
- [04:50]
Zibby Owens
There you go, Pam. Tell everybody first a little bit more about about you. I've already read your bio and all of that, but just take us through how you got to the point where you were writing this book.
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Pam Sherman
Well, it actually goes back to when I was in the second grade.
- [05:05]
Zibby Owens
Let's go there.
- [05:07]
Pam Sherman
I used to dream of being an actor and I lived on Staten island and I used to play the piano with the door wide open, singing at the top of my Lungs, hoping that a Broadway producer would hear me sing and cast me on Broadway. But they don't wander the streets of Staten island and I can't.
- [05:25]
Zibby Owens
But they should.
- [05:26]
Pam Sherman
They should. And I came from a very traditional family, I always say. My dad was an ob GYN and my mom was a Freudian psychoanalyst, which was super confusing, but that's for another show. And so I took a traditional route and I went to law school because I thought, well, it would be like being a lawyer on television, but it wasn't at all. And instead of like running up the courtroom steps and doing all these great arguments that would solve the case and it'd be done in an hour. It was endless nights of sitting on a library floor with books all around me and crying at the ceiling. Literally, I would shut the door of my office and I. I was wearing what I thought was a nice suit, but it was ill fitting, I used to say, both metaphorically and actually lots of shoulder pads. And I realized that I was not being myself, that I had suppressed this dream, but with it, I had suppressed myself. And I was diminishing who I was. And so I decided to sneak off and take an acting class, which is kind of crazy if you think about it as a full time lawyer. And I got so inspired in a rehearsal room at the Shakespeare theater in Washington D.C. with Ed Gero. And I realized that it wasn't the world of pretend. It was a world where I had to build a believable character who's believable to my other actors and then also be believable to the audience. And in going back in that journey, I started to develop more confidence. I'd go back to work and I was more creative. I think I dressed better because I started being more like myself. And I realized that something was happening to me that wasn't about pretend, but was about being believable to myself and to others. And a funny thing happened on the way to my secure profession. My law firm went out of business, which happens. And we're living in times of upheaval where people think the path is one way. And I decided to take the leap and become a full time working actor in Washington D.C. cue laughter. And I was profiled in People magazine, which Zibby, other than doing this podcast, was actually one of my dreams, right? To be in People magazine. And I got a call and it was from the head of training at the Department of Justice, and it was the antitrust division. And this is how I remember it. She's like, do you Think you could come in and make my lawyers more interesting? I'm like, no, I cannot. They're not that interesting. But I started thinking about it and I thought, well, why can't I take what I learned in that rehearsal room and bring it to how you show up and make them realize that the messenger matters, that obviously they have the facts in the law, but what they really are, great storytellers that influence people. So it's not about presentation skills that never interested me. There are great people who do that. And that actually set me off on a journey, working for the last, well, you know, 20 years all over the world with people from, I like to say, from Saudi Arabia to Cincinnati and from Milwaukee to Morocco, and having them realize that what they need to do is bridge a believability gap internally and externally so they could reach their audiences. And it's been so satisfying. And that's why it's taken so long to write the book, because I'm busy doing the actual work. So.
- [08:53]
Zibby Owens
So I know you outlined so much of this in the book, but what does that mean? How can people bridge a believability gap? And how can people like lawyers who don't, who might not be, not to, you know, categorized lawyers unfairly, but let's just say a particular Joe Schmo lawyer who is not, who doesn't pin themselves as anyone who's creative at all or doesn't want to think about these types of things, like how can you translate all the things you teach into some clear points, which obviously you do here.
- [09:22]
Pam Sherman
But to fill in the blank, lawyer, accountant, engineer, mom, trying to convince, you know, a four year old to tie their shoes, you know, community leaders, entrepreneurs trying to build their business, the believability gap. So to be clear, this is not about authenticity, right? I, you know, authenticity is about I'm going to be me and I know who I am. Believability is I am me for others. And there's a generosity to that. And you know, lawyer, accountant, community organizer, we all have to realize that we want to make an impact on others. So the believability gap itself is defined as who we fundamentally are and who we think we're supposed to show up as, which creates an internal believability gap for ourselves and who we fundamentally are and how we show up for others, which makes us less believable to them. So the tools that I use are actually under a model that I developed because I'm a lawyer, I trademarked it called the Edge. And the book is actually laid out using the edge. Edge model. My kids will tell me that I, I. Everything I do, I do with an edge. And I'm very edgy. Maybe it's the Staten island thing, I don't know. But to me, it means to explore connections. How do I connect to myself and my audience? The D is for dream. It's understanding that vision is a requirement, because vision for yourself, for your organization, for your team, for your family, for your community. I always. There's a great quote in the book that I love. It's not what vision is, it's what vision does. So having a vision and speaking in vision, visionary language actually makes you more believable to yourself. And there's all sorts of research about that. And then the grow part is, okay, you've done all the work on yourself, but then you've got this inner narrative, I call them your archetypes, that come in and block you. So you have to know how to move those obstacles, those internal obstacles. And then you also have to learn how to work better with others. Play in the sandbox. So we realized that we were missing a chapter in the book around how to be believable with your team. Mm. It's critical. It's not about just knowing yourself. It's about, you know, how are we all going to collaborate together? So even that lawyer who we stereotype as uncreative has to often work with a big team of people to make a difference for their client. So they have to be able to traverse internal conflict, not just the conflict that they're trying to solve, problem solving. And so there's tools and techniques. I love that. My favorite chapter title is called Rehearse youe. Like, how do you rehearse yourself? And then the excite part is then, how do you ignite your audience? How do you pay attention to what's really important to them? And then what's the message and the content that you can write or speak or just live so that it makes a difference. Frankly, you are the model for this. I will never forget watching you on Instagram and following you. And I think it was two years ago. I was driving on Montana Avenue, and I passed in Santa Monica, and I told my husband, stop the car. It was like, you know, it was like Miracle on 34th Street. And I had to go run. I was like, that's Siby Owens Bookstore. And I think you were interviewing Jackie Collins. And. And I walked in, and you were so welcoming. You know, there was a crowd of people. But you stopped. You looked me in the eye. You Said hello. And my whole theory is that you want to be who you are, wherever you are, in order to ignite your audience. And it meant so much to me that you were exactly the same both on your. In your virtual world, in your actual world, and, boy, you were incredible with Joan Collins. But you made me feel like I belonged in that room. That's what I hope for others, is to give them a template for how to, you know, for some it's innate, and for some who think it's innate, they're not doing it so well. So, you know, so I do think it's important that we have self awareness and most important, that we have relational awareness around who we are for others, because I ultimately believe that's. That's why I wrote this book. So those who I don't get to work with or I don't get to meet could pick up the book and have a template and some exercises. And it's very. It was really important to me that it be. That it still be funny, because that's a core value of mine, that it have great stories and that there was a how to component to this, which, you know, I admire so many of the authors that you have on the podcast who can write fiction. I live for fiction in my life, but I really wanted to write something that was real and actionable and people could make a difference for them.
- [14:11]
Zibby Owens
Do you ever worry that when you put all your tips and tricks in a book that you won't get clients anymore? Is that a silly thing?
- [14:18]
Pam Sherman
No. It's so funny because I was really lucky to work with a great collaborator, Larry Bishop, who has written some incredible bestselling books with people like me who are consultants, coaches, whatever. You know, honestly, I don't know what to call myself because it's a little bit different for every client that I work with. I think the answer is no. I was more worried how do we capture the feeling of working with me on a page that was so difficult, right. So that it became about the stories. And there were some dark, you know, night of the soul moments as a writer where I was like, does this. Could somebody feel what it was like to be in a room with me coaching them? I think it might inspire. Obviously, I want to inspire groups and teams and organizations to buy the book and to read it. I always say that there's nothing like having. And you know this, there's nothing like having the person who lived it and who, you know, for whom the stories are real, share those stories and work either one on one or with large groups that inspires me. But you know what it is like, my mother always told me it's just as hard or easy to cook for 100 people as it is to cook for one. So you might as well cook for 100. And that's what the book is all about.
- [15:43]
Zibby Owens
I've cooked for one. I've never cooked for 100. So I'm going to, I'm going to push back on that a little bit.
- [15:50]
Pam Sherman
Well, because, you know, you still have to put all the ingredients in the pot.
- [15:52]
Zibby Owens
I know, I know. Yeah.
- [15:54]
Pam Sherman
You know, so. So one person will benefit. I, I actually. No, I don't worry. I was actually more worried about making it feel like you were going on a journey, as if it was your own coaching opportunity.
- [16:07]
Zibby Owens
Well, I feel like voice is so important to you in the book in what you do. You captured Irma Bombach's voice in your one woman show so brilliantly. Talk a little bit about the role of humor, the role of voice and how to. I know you're worried you weren't capturing 100% you, but just what is it about our voices that make such a difference? And how do you make sure you bring your voice to everything you do?
- [16:35]
Whatnot Advertiser
Today's episode is sponsored by Whatnot. Okay, so Whatnot is a live shopping platform where you can get items across all different divisions from beauty, apparel, bags and more. But what I have found is it is the perfect place to get kids birthday gifts. There are neatos. For those of you who don't know, neatos are these little plastic toys which are all the craze people go neato hunting anyway. They have needos and squishies and everything you can imagine for better prices than competitors. There are great deals and it is so fun to shop in this dynamic interactive platform.
- [17:13]
Zibby Owens
My steals included a jelly cat Heart for $5.38 and Jelly Cat Toasty Marshmallows for $9.89, not to mention Anito for $6.29.
- [17:25]
Whatnot Advertiser
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- [18:05]
Zibby Owens
Today's episode is sponsored by Wayfair. After the fire in the Palisades, we had to redo our entire outside area and we found the best stuff on Wayfair. We found adorable throw pillows that looked fabulous. We found one round carpet, one square carpet. We found coffee tables and all sorts of things that made our outside feel like home again. Wayfair is amazing because it has everything you could possibly need and it's so easy to find. Wayfair made it so simple for us to narrow it down to what we wanted for our style and budget. It also features reviews, filters and visual tools that help us find the right fit. Fit Every Style, Every Outdoor Space Whether your vibe is modern, coastal, farmhouse or eclectic, Wayfair has the options you need to help you create an outdoor space that's uniquely yours. And everything is in one place. From outdoor seating and grills to storage, patio lighting and rugs and decor, which is what we got. Wayfair is your one stop shop for Home Plus. You can trust in the delivery, installation and assembly services are available for a truly seamless, seamless experience. It was so easy for us to order and receive all of our items. Plus over 20 million verified 5 star reviews helped me make the right call. Real customers, real feedback and real homes. You can also shop with Wayfair Verified. Your shortcut to the good stuff. Their team of product specialists vets everything by hand using a 10 point quality inspection so you know you're getting a quality piece no matter your budget. Get prepped for patio season for way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair every style every Home Wayfair Every Style Every Home
- [19:57]
Capital One Bank Announcer
with no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimum minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com Bank.
- [20:31]
Pam Sherman
Oh, that is such a great question because there's a whole chapter on voice and body language and the impact of that. You know when somebody says I'm so happy to be here, it's like, I'm so happy to be here. Like, why are. You don't sound happy to me. I also. There's a second thing I think of when I think of voice. It's. I'm constantly being. I'll never forget, you know, her voice. Can you work on her voice? She just doesn't sound like a leader. And I remember calling a client and she called me with a. Oh, my gosh, the thickest New York accent. I said, oh, my gosh, you sound like home. Thank you so much. Like, I don't want people to quash their voices. It was really important to me on the book. I remember I kept getting notes from my agent and my editor. Where's Pam's voice? Where's Pam's voice? And like, well, Pam has many voices. She's got this intellectual lawyer voice. She's got. We have a range of voices, and it depends on your audiences. And that's why it's so important, I think, to figure out what are your core character beliefs, because that's going to guide your voice voice. There's a whole chapter on your power words. So my power words, at the core one is energy, and that's really important to me. And then humor, connectedness, and excellence. Those are my core character beliefs. So that's what forms my voice. And if I'm not showing up with humor, lightness, something that's going to invite somebody in, then I'm not being playing myself and I can't make a difference for my audiences. So I think on the page, I think it's harder on the page, maybe I'm wrong. You know, that's why fiction writers, I think it's so fascinating because they have to actually write these voices that aren't them, but they've got to sort of channel them. And it's the same thing as an actor. So you mentioned Irma Bombeck. She was an inspiration. For 15 years, I wrote a column on the USA Today Network called the Suburban Outlaw. And basically I got to make fun of my husband in print. It was super fun, but inspired by this legendary writer who some people in the audience might not know who she is, but she was the first woman columnist to write about what it was like to be a mother with truth. And she did it from an ironing board in her home in Dayton, Ohio. I think next week, 600 aspiring writers are descending upon University of Dayton for the Irma Bombeck Writers Workshop, where I actually first, second time I met you. And she really was an inspiration to so many. She was in over 900 newspapers. She was on Good Morning America, and I look nothing like her, and I sound nothing like her. I mean, I had to even learn how to pronounce things as an Ohio, like cottage. I say cottage cheese, she says, cottage cheese. At least that's what my director kept telling me.
- [23:19]
Zibby Owens
My mom is from Dayton, Ohio, and that's where my family's from. So you could have come to me because I think I might speak that way as well.
- [23:27]
Capital One Bank Announcer
Exactly.
- [23:28]
Pam Sherman
So for me, it was really important not to imitate her, but to find the essence of her. And so I would work on the character beliefs of Irma, which was about warmth, generosity, spirituality. And suddenly my voice would become. It's my voice, but it would be softer, sort of show up in a smile. And I found it. And in that way, suddenly I could embody Irma. And that's what a great actor does, where people would then believe me. Because if you looked at a picture of Irma and you looked at a picture of me, I think the greatest compliment was meeting her daughter, Betsy, who then came to the show when I did it in Des Moines, Iowa. And as I said goodbye, she said, goodbye, Mom. I'm like, oh, my gosh, that was so meaningful to me. So being on the road doing IRMAA over the last seven years while running my business, coaching clients who are in corporate leadership roles, you know, community organizers, people in all industries that you can think of, that's what really inspired me. And actually, I would write the book during the day, and then I would go to do the show at night. And so the stories of even living on that stage and bringing that character to life really started to form in the book, and I started bringing. You know, I think sometimes I'm going to be honest, I'm so identify with my audiences. I used to say sometimes I identify with my corporate captors too much. Like, I have to remind myself that when I walk into a group of finance executives, they're more afraid of me than I am of them. So going back on stage brought me back to why I do this work and why it's so important to me.
- [25:11]
Zibby Owens
Amazing. We also reconnected through JWI Jewish Women International, which you have roped me into. You just keep bringing me into your orbit in different ways, which is great. Great. Talk a little bit about that and how you became so involved there.
- [25:26]
Pam Sherman
I am. I'm so proud. Proud, actually, of your involvement, but of JWI Jewish Women International, I am the incoming chair of the board, which is. That's probably the scariest role I have ever played to. To be a leader of a nonprofit organization that has such great meaning. I got involved with jwi. I live in Rochester, New York, very far away, you know, from. I'm closer to Canada than I am to New York City. But I heard an incredible speaker, Rab, Sherry Hirsch in Rochester, and we became really great friends through long phone calls. We started talking on the phone and I was driving back and forth to Buffalo because I had clients. And she's like, I'm free. Give me a call. Three hour time difference. And she invites me to this event in Washington, D.C. where I had lived for 17 years for an organization I'd never heard of. And JWI's mission is to end gender violence, grow financial literacy, and empower women and girls to lead. I'm like, I'm in. So I left the house at 4 o' clock in the morning because that's what time you have to leave when you live in Rochester. And I flew to Washington and I saw my friend Sherry Hirsch be honored as a woman to watch. We honor 10 women to watch. You were one this last year of Jewish women who are making an impact on the world.
- [26:48]
Zibby Owens
And.
- [26:48]
Pam Sherman
And it was actually at that luncheon that I met my agent, and he said, you have a book in you? And I said, I said, well, I've already written a bestselling book, a compilation of columns. And he's like, no, I think you have another one in you. Like, okay, get it out of me. I listened to Sherry Hirsch and then I listened to the mission of the organization, and I said, I want in. This is an organization. We have young women's impact networks around the country. We're helping them grow their leadership as well as emerge into their careers. We help nonprofit leaders in the Jewish world grow their leadership. And then our programming actually makes a difference, helping Jewish communities identify and help survivors in their communities. And then we help survivors through career training and programming. And the fact that we do this, and we also, frankly, post October 7th, are helping young women deal with antisemitism in their world by having them gather together. I know how powerful it was this year when you were honored as a woman to watch to see 300 young women light the first Hanukkah candle on the day after the shooting at Brown and other events around the world. And then we also make a difference for Israeli women leading the charge on, I believe, Israeli women around sexual violence that occurred on October 7th. I could not be more proud of Meredith Jacobs, our CEO, the entire board, my current board chair, Michelle Carlson, who somehow taught me into this, and all the leaders on the board. But most important, I want people to know that, you know, there are lots of organizations who have the same mission in terms of antisemitism, but I don't think there's a lot of Jewish women's organizations that stop to think about developing women's leadership through gathering, through getting to meet people like you, through mentorship, and most important, through community. So I'm really excited because the day before I launch the book, I'm going to do a virtual event for all of our young women leaders around the country. And we've also partnered with Artists Against Antisemitism, which I know you're a founder of, and Gilly Siegel, who was also a woman to watch for a book club, so. And that we're trying to build more connection to more mature women, women like me. So. So for me, at this stage of my life, I've always been a volunteer here in Rochester. I never joined a board because I was busy with my kids, but I was an auctioneer for fun Civvy.
- [29:33]
Zibby Owens
I'm not surprised. I cannot say I'm surprised.
- [29:36]
Pam Sherman
It's sort of like I always say, my Sasha Fierce Persona takes over on stage and I remind everybody why they're there. So taking my voice and bringing my platform to grow Jewish women's leadership is something I'm incredibly proud of. So I was very honored when you said yes and you came and I. And our women's conference happens every year in December, always, you know, right around Hanukkah. So. And people come from all over the country. And our women to watch are so diverse, from the founder of the First Women's bank to you, to the leader of First Class Class Vending, a woman owned business in Las Vegas. Like, we just, you know, people out there doing the thing, employing people, rolling up their sleeves and doing it as a Jewish woman in their power. And that that's. To me, it actually fits to play you and the edge for me to take on this role at jwi. Thank you for asking about that.
- [30:37]
Zibby Owens
Sure. No, I was going to say you embody all of those things and this book is just case in point. Pam, you are such a warrior. Thank you. All the things you do to help other make people's lives better, imbue their work with meaning and warmth. I mean, that's so important too, like being able to connect to people in a time where there is so much divisiveness. I mean, these are the things that we all need to hold onto, especially as things ramp up and people might not share all the same opinions, the way to connect with others is oh absolutely.
- [31:11]
Pam Sherman
For me, this is about being human and humanity is really wonderful. I think in this world of AI and the incredible, incredible conflicts that we're seeing around the world and on technology, having people believe in themselves, believability is what we need more of. So I, I can't thank you enough for giving me this chance to talk to you about it.
- [31:32]
Zibby Owens
Well, I'm so glad you stopped the car that day because our relationship is really meaningful and just love all of the ways that our paths are going to continue to cross. So congratulations on play you and I'm very excited to have to help you usher it into the world. Congrats.
- [31:47]
Pam Sherman
Thank you so much. Take care. You're welcome.
- [31:49]
Zibby Owens
Okay, bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ibbeoens and Spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh and buy the books.
- [32:12]
Capital One Bank Announcer
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- [32:59]
Zibby Owens
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