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- [00:00]
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- [01:35]
Zibby Owens
Today's episode is sponsored by Nutrafol. Do you know that feeling when you're brushing your hair and somehow it just looks a little thinner than usual, maybe a little less full? And you're like, what is going on here? Well, Nutrafol supports hair health from within, helping you grow stronger, visibly thicker hair so that those moments happen less often where you're worried about your hair. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists and by the way, personally by me. This is the brand that I trust. Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. Order online, no prescription needed, with automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. Plus, with a Nutrafol subscription, you can save up to 20% and get added perks to support your hair health journey. So let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See Visibly thicker, Stronger, Faster Growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol for a limited time. Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrafol.com and enter promo code ZIBBY Z I B b y. That's Nutrafol.com spelled N u T R-A F o L.com promo code ZIBBY. Enjoy. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcasters, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibbeowens. Today is a two in one episode with two fabulous authors. First up, Rosie Walsh is the author of the One Day youy Were My Husband. Rosie has lived and traveled all over the world, working as a documentary producer and writer. Her two previous novels, Ghosted and the Love of My Life, were New York Times bestsellers and have sold nearly 2 million copies worldwide. The One Day youy Are My Husband is her third novel. She lives in Devon, UK with her partner and two children. Welcome Rosie. I am so excited to have you back after a couple years to talk about your latest book, which per usual, is filled with twists and turns and heartbreak and emotion and, and all the good things that you look for in a. Why don't you tell listeners what it's about?
- [04:25]
Rosie Walsh
Of course, and it's lovely to be here. It sort of feels like having a chat with an old friend now. Yeah. So the One day you were my husband. I mean, I sort of think all of my books really, I can't start writing them unless I've got a pretty much like a one line elevator pitch. And the elevator pitch for this one was two people get married on a beach in Thailand. They're dancing under a starlit sky when suddenly the beach is filled with armed men who take the groom away, never to be seen again. That's what I started with and for a long time that's all I had. Thankfully, there is now a whole very dramatic story behind why he was taken away and what happened at the time and then what happens now, which is about 12 years later.
- [05:08]
Zibby Owens
Wow. Well, as I said, so many twists. We learn all about Johan and the backstory of him, his mother, his career. I feel like I can't talk about this book without giving so much away because everything unfolds over time when. When paths start crossing again in the future. But the feeling that you manufacture or recreate rather, of that abandonment and confusion and shock and years of not understanding. I mean, it takes me back to Ghosted again with, like, this not being able to get over this. When people. When. When people do things that don't make sense, really, that's really the crux of it.
- [05:49]
Rosie Walsh
Yeah, yeah. And when I think, particularly when you've gone from. And it was. I guess it was the same also in the love of my life that came after Ghosted, you know, Leo and Emma are incredibly happy when suddenly he discovers that his wife isn't Literally isn't even called Emma.
- [06:03]
Zibby Owens
Yes.
- [06:04]
Rosie Walsh
And the same with Sarah and Eddie in Ghosted. You know, they go from being absolutely madly in love, can't bear to be apart for a moment, to suddenly he is nowhere. And this one was different. You know, we get to see that suddenly, like some. A huge shift has happened, but it's not within either of their control. It's not like one of them sort of gone off and done a weird thing and discovered. Or discovered something about the other. It's literally he is physically removed from this beach, which I spent probably only three days on, to be honest. After the first two days, I was like, I think the third day is pushing it, but I don't actually need to be here for three days. It was fine. I used the time to do a bit of writing. But, yeah, this beach that I will for the rest of my life, you know, remember, just remember standing on at that time of night, just trying to just listen, you know, just doing the stuff that I, as a writer do, you know, listening to all of the sounds behind me in the sort of jungle area and from the sea and the, you know, the bar in the little resort, smelling the air, just. Just trying to imagine the absolute horror of being married, of having just got married to somebody who you love more than you can describe, and to then watch them being taken away by a convoy of, you know, yelling, armed men. Most writers start at the beginning, and so, you know, that first scene, the prologue or chapter one, it is normally the chapter that has been rewritten and refined the most, you know, more than. It's received more attention than any other chapter. And certainly that was the case with my one right until the very final pass where, like, I wasn't even meant to be editing it anymore. I was literally just meant to be checking every, you know, all of the stuff that they had changed in the copy edit. Even at the very final pass, I was like, I need a bit more drama. I need to make this slightly more horrifying. But, you know, such is the nature of writing, I guess. You know, all of us, we're just layering and layering and layering until we have to achieve with maximum effect the thing that we set out to achieve.
- [08:02]
Zibby Owens
You do that beautifully. And it's not just that you introduce something that we have to spend the rest of the book figuring out. Right. It's not just something that's unimaginable because you root the rest of the story in the everyday of life with kids and, you know, the fear you have over your kids. And in this case, they were prematurely born twins to a doctor who. Well aware of every breath taken. But as parents, we're all sort of always holding our breath as we hope our kids get through each day and all of that. But anyway, you go through that and the fear of losing them in many ways as the book goes forward. And then my books are so hard
- [08:48]
Rosie Walsh
to talk about, right.
- [08:50]
Zibby Owens
I'm like.
- [08:50]
Rosie Walsh
Can't actually say anything really, but it's
- [08:54]
Zibby Owens
still, you know, the. The fierce mother love and also the sandwich generation piece of it with her father and his Alzheimer's, which you write about also so beautifully and devastatingly and until things, you know, sort of change in that regard as well, and just the heartbreak of sort of everybody you love feels like at any moment that they're. They're all, like, slipping away in one way or another in this book.
- [09:21]
Rosie Walsh
And yet such is life at times, isn't it? It's.
- [09:24]
Zibby Owens
And yet, such as life, obviously, in
- [09:26]
Rosie Walsh
a novel, I guess all of the catastrophes have to happen at once. Yeah. And yet I don't know about your life, but certainly that has been my experience. At times it's just like, what. No, how many. How many terrible things can happen at once? And I sometimes think, you know, this is something I often talk about. Like, I've. I've never studied creative writing, so I have no sense of, you know, people talk about, you know, the. Oh, you know, there's all these narrative arcs and, you know, like, the problem and the midpoint twist and the peak of this and, you know, the resolution and, you know, whatever. I can't go there. It would confuse my brain, and I just do what I do and keep on doing it. Until it feels right. Just using my gut instinct yet I sort of think probably if somebody who understood all of the sort of narrative structure theory were to look at it, you know, they would probably say, ah, yes, this is a point where this crisis meets this crisis and that crisis, and then this thing happens and then it resolves. Possibly there are too many crises.
- [10:25]
Zibby Owens
Definitely a lot of crises. Definitely.
- [10:28]
Rosie Walsh
And actually I sort of quite. There's, there's, you know, there is a terrible. Well, actually, you know, this is something I can talk about. There's a terrible moment for Carrie where she, after, you know, Johan is taken away without explanation by armed men. She gets back to Bangkok to try and find out what on earth happened to him. And she goes to an embassy, they can't help her. She goes to another embassy, they can't help her. And in the interim, she's completely ripped off by a taxi driver who spends 40 minutes driving around with her, charges her a small fortune, and then drops her three blocks down the road. And in the middle of that, she's just standing at this sort of busy traffic intersection, just almost sort of shutting down. And that's the point at which she realizes that her period is starting, which was not a detail I had planned, but it just arrived. Because isn't that what always happens? You know, just when we feel that our resilience is gone, is broken, something else happens? So, yeah, there's a lot of that, but I guess that's how fiction works.
- [11:27]
Zibby Owens
I feel like the one thing that you do throughout the book and always really is this notion of. Of trust. And as a reader, we then are questioning literally every character, you know, is. Is her mom on her side or not? Like, let's follow the track of just her relationship with her mom, which has lots of twists and turns, and her sister and her dad and her dad's wife. And by the end of it, I'm just like, who can I trust in this whole book? Like, is the kid going to turn on her? What is Maeve up to? Like, who is. Who is actually on. On her side? Like, what is next? But I feel like going through life, going through this book and not being able to trust a soul like that is so destabilizing. How.
- [12:13]
Rosie Walsh
How do you.
- [12:13]
Zibby Owens
How do you make sense of the world if you can't even trust the. The foundation of your life?
- [12:22]
Rosie Walsh
Yeah, it's interesting that you picked up on that. I think it was Lizzie, my agent, but it might have been one of my editors. But I think it was Lizzie who, in a late read not long before we took the manuscript to my publishers, I think it was her who said, you know, these final scenes for Carrie are pretty awful because there is almost nobody left who she, you know, person after person after person she has discovered has. Has let her down. And none of them the people you would expect, you know, is, how do we feel about that? Is that okay? But I sort of think that's the conclusion she's already reached anyway. And what's. What I. I think the reason that that was okay and wasn't too big was that when we meet her at the very beginning, she's actually already, after many years, you know, dealing with the traumatic after effects of, you know, certainly what happened in Thailand. But then years later when she met somebody else, married them and had premature children and living with them in NICU for like six months when we, at the beginning of the novel in the present day, she's actually finally sort of beginning to move through all of that and past it. So I guess my response when that was flagged up like, is this almost more than one person can take was no, because from the very beginning, Carrie is an extraordinary woman. And having been reduced to smashed to smithereens really, by the circumstances of her life that are all beyond her control, when we first meet her, she's kind of on the rise again. And so I think for me, that made it still plausible that she could survive all this because she was already in a resourced state when this kind of present day nightmare kicks off, which is when she discovers Johan is no longer in Thailand, no longer incarcerated, and, you know, a whole chain of catastrophic events are kicked off again. I think when that starts, she's in a resource state, which is why she comes out in the way that she does, which I won't talk about again.
- [14:17]
Zibby Owens
Well, it's not just that she comes out over the course of the book, but you have her as a healer, right? She's a doctor. She's like a badass doctor, right? Like, she's not just like, oh, I could get out of bed again. It's like, no. And now I'm doing this level and I'm like, I don't even know what these all refer to, but you know, this level and this, you know, I've. It's amazing. She's like not letting go really, of. Of what she can give back. Even though she would be totally excused to wallow. Like if she wants to stay in bed, I give her an I sanction that that's okay. But she doesn't stay in Bed. She heals.
- [14:56]
Rosie Walsh
She does. And I think, I mean, to a certain extent, I think that's part and parcel of life as a doctor or a surgeon, isn't it? You know, I, and I think that's, that's, that's why finally, finally the medical world has kind of begun to turn its attention on the mental and physical well being of its practitioners. Because, you know, nine and a half out of 10 have had no opportunity whatsoever to deal with any of the stuff that's happened to them in their lives. I mean, you know, that job within, in and of itself, as Kerry says, like, can bring a daily buffet of trauma. Yeah, trauma and death. So yeah, part of it I think is just the Carrie that I dreamed up from the beginning, this extraordinary woman. And part of it, I think is just the inherent nature of working in that field. And I think, I mean, God knows how you navigate being a doctor these days, you know, with the far greater understanding we have of our own nervous systems and mental health and physical health. You know, I think it must be a lot harder for them these days to square away.
- [15:58]
Zibby Owens
Yep.
- [15:58]
Rosie Walsh
No, still no self care.
- [16:00]
Zibby Owens
Yep.
- [16:00]
Rosie Walsh
Yeah, still no space for me. Still no chance to recover or repair what happened yesterday.
- [16:05]
Zibby Owens
And in addition to not repairing, then just having to go home and deal with all the immediate crises of the kids, which they. Don't care what you've been through, ever.
- [16:14]
Rosie Walsh
I am my dear friend Hannah, who helped me with a hell of a lot of, I mean, my God, the amount of time that poor woman gave me. She has three kids and is the consultant surgeon and her husband is also a consultant, not, not a surgeon. And there was at one, there was one point at which all three of her kids were going to different schools as it is at the moment. They, they're going to two different schools. You know, she doesn't have any hired help or anything. I, I have, I have genuinely no understanding still having been friends with her most of our lives, how, how she carries it off and is generally sane, level, calm, competent. You know, I spent time shadowing her in the hospital. Took months and months and months to get the, you know, the relevant permissions. But I did eventually get in and get to watch surgeries and, and observe her in clinic and God, so many people, so generous me to be in there, you know, given that some of them were receiving the worst, worst news. But you know, just watching her, just unflinching, you know, people, you know, being. Well, I, I guess I can't go into what I saw and observed but you know, Just a lot of challenging conversations and situations. And, you know, at the end of the day, she was just herself. I gave her a lift down to the. Where her car's parked because obviously, even as a consultant surgeon, she can't get a car park, car parking space at her own hospital. I gave her a lift down the road and she was just her usual very funny self. Just, I. They're a different type of human being to me, and I have nothing but the greatest admiration for them.
- [17:49]
Zibby Owens
I feel like your choice of character name in Carrie is so apt because of all of the things that she actually is carrying at once.
- [17:57]
Rosie Walsh
I hadn't thought of that. To me, it's just the name of, like, a really brilliant, badass woman. But you're right, yeah, she, she. She carries so much in this novel.
- [18:05]
Zibby Owens
And I'm assuming, but maybe I'm wrong, that you did not shadow somebody in a Thai prison, but maybe you did.
- [18:15]
Rosie Walsh
I did not. I did go to Thailand. I was about to say twice, but I didn't. I went to Stockholm twice. I went to Thailand and I found a fixer out there through contacts, and he didn't take me into prisons. I didn't. I. I toyed with the idea of going down the road of obtaining permission, but I worked in. I was a teleproducer for years, you know, working up from, you know, the lower ranks up to the level that I left at. And I know how much it takes to gain access to those kind of institutions. It's months, sometimes years of access work. And I didn't have that because part of my motivation for going to Thailand was to actually figure out what on earth my story was, because that's. That. That is how I plot my books. I go somewhere. But yeah, I. I decided not to try and get access to a prison partly because it would have taken forever and I needed to go to Thailand like yesterday so that I could start writing the book. But partly because I think also I know my own limits. You know, I, like most of us, I'm a woman who's, you know, experienced a lot of difficult things in life. And I, at that time, you know, my daughter was still only. She was just a bit past one and I was not. I just wasn't sufficiently internally resourced to be wandering around a Thai prison. And I think actually my instinct was correct because just getting in as close as I did, you know, I wasn't literally just standing by the gate. You know, we were able to go in and get up to the kind of the limit of where you can go if you're on site, but not going kind of behind the scenes, so to speak, you know, actually that, that was more than enough. It was more than enough. That coupled with the, you know, the hundreds and hundreds of pages of info and, you know, watching programs and interviewing people, I, I actually felt that the, the being there is enough actually for me, just the, the worst prison of all. Ban Kwang just standing at the, at the front gate before we even moved any further was for me, I don't know, just for my system, it was horrifying. Just, just literally that the tiny bit that I could see through the bars of the sort of main entrance gate, that was, that was more than enough. And, you know, being in the other areas that I did access, it was plenty because it's not, you know, even though I often talk about, in my process about, you know, how I want the specifics to tiny details, I had plenty of that in the bits that I did access. So, yes, even though detail is important, actually it's more a feeling, I think.
- [20:53]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, that makes sense. Rosie, you mentioned a couple times the difficult things in your past, and I know that we've already talked about some, but do you want to share or would you mind sharing what are some of the hardest moments that you've overcome that inform your writing?
- [21:13]
Rosie Walsh
Gosh, where would I begin? I mean, I put motherhood up there much as it is, you know, the greatest sort of enjoy of my life. I would certainly. I think I. Some, I think some women are natural mothers, some women are not. I'm not. I think there are very, you know, clear reasons for that. If I look at my own past, which I won't go into here, but, you know, I think, you know, some of the, some of the things that carries up against as a mother, I am too. And that's been very challenging at times. More challenging, you know, a greater challenge than I felt that I could rise to. Yeah, I mean, I think it's such an interesting question because Carrie does overcome a huge amount. And actually, you know, I have too. And perhaps some of that resilience is, you know, is innate in me and I hadn't seen it. It's such an interesting question. You know, I've. I have overcome, you know, a life or death eating disorder. And, you know, it continues to be daily work, but I, you know, and you know, very severe, you know, life threatening illness. And I think all of those things require a lot of practical work, a lot of physical and logistical work, but also a lot of emotional work. And I guess because I have, you know, I have been willing to show up and do that work. I have come through and, you know, and actually, right now I'm really thriving much, much, I guess, as is Carrie at the, you know, I'm sort of very much, you know, where Carrie is, either at the beginning or the end of the book. But it's. I think. I think for me, you know, overcoming challenges has been such a long game, and one that is not about reaching a destination, but about showing up every single day in the way that we see Carrie doing in the book. Yeah, it's as I often say, you know, when I'm talking to, you know, fellows from. From my sort of those parts of my life, you know, I. I have to look at my progress as a human being in terms of those tiny Lego building blocks. Just, you know, just the tour. Just the tour. Possibly even the one up. It's that tiny little two blobs. And, you know, every single day, you know, I need to show up, put those blobs onto the wall, those two little blobs onto the wall, and it looks like nothing. I stand back and I can't see a single thing. But if I'm just look at it six months later, it's like, oh, okay, that wall has grown. That's a bigger wall than it was actually. And the only reason that's there is because I've continued to show up and put those tiny blocks on even when I haven't wanted to, and it's felt pointless.
- [23:51]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, well. Well, thank you. I mean, that is such a great metaphor because that's kind of all we can do to get past the things. And sometimes the one block can feel insurmountable. Right. But you. You're doing it.
- [24:09]
Rosie Walsh
It's that big.
- [24:10]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, but it doesn't matter. And that's amazing. I feel like that context also puts some of Carrie's recovery into. Into context itself. You know, even when the people around her say things like, but, oh, you were doing so well, I didn't want to tell you this, or, you know, you were. And. And even for Johan, who, I mean, not to, you know, go into things, but how he has to heal in a way. Well, I'll leave it. But, you know, I don't think it's
- [24:38]
Rosie Walsh
a spoiler to say that he has to do an extraordinary amount of healing.
- [24:42]
Zibby Owens
He has to do it. Yes. Physically, emotionally, and, you know, you. You feel that progress as it. As it goes. And now, you know, it makes. It makes a little more sense in a Way, not sense, but I don't know, feels deeper and more resonant. So thank you and I'm sorry you've had all of that, but how. How great that you just keep building and know that that's what it takes. Right. Because don't blocks. Amazing.
- [25:13]
Rosie Walsh
And that's what it takes to create a book as well, I think.
- [25:15]
Zibby Owens
Yes.
- [25:16]
Rosie Walsh
Tiny Lego blog. And some writers are very, you know, very capable of laying down far larger blocks in a day. I'm not one of them, and that's absolutely fine. You know, my two is enough.
- [25:27]
Zibby Owens
Well, your two, certainly from the writing world, has yielded these amazing novels. So, you know, whatever you're doing with the Legos is certainly working. I mean, a lot of people are putting little Lego blocks together and they're just getting a collapsed. I don't even know. I mean, I watch Lego Masters and some of those things just do not work, no matter how much time you put in. So. So, you know, that is true. It's working.
- [25:49]
Rosie Walsh
That is true. It's funny, I often say, you know, anyone. Anyone can write a book as long as they show up. But I guess that doesn't need to mean that it'd be a good book. That's right.
- [25:58]
Zibby Owens
That's right. Did you start another book already or. No, Oops.
- [26:02]
Rosie Walsh
I did. I did. And I'm really, really excited about this one. I've had my first research trip, which was to Lisbon, which. And by the. It was one of those trips. I mean, to be honest, all of my trips like this, but probably more than any other one I've had so far, it was one of those trips where by the end I was like, googling property prices in the area. Thankfully, I cannot afford to live there because I'm certainly not the only person who's had the idea of moving to Lisbon. It's just such an extraordinary city. I couldn't. I don't actually think I could have loved it more. So I pitched my elevator pitch. I had a. My translation agents put on this lovely party for me last week. It was London Book Fair. Yes. So, you know, editors and scouts and agents from around the world were all in London last week and there was a lovely party put on for all of my translation and US and UK publishers to gather and celebrate the one day you, my husband. And whilst I was there, I pitched, I did my elevator pitch to my German editor, who I've been working with for years, since before I even wrote onto my own name, and I think my new Dutch publisher. And when I pitched it to Her. She actually jumped up and down on the spot, which is about. You know, that's. That.
- [27:17]
Kelly Yang
That.
- [27:17]
Rosie Walsh
That. That's about the best possible reaction I could have hoped for. Obviously, I can't. I can't share that now. I'm trying to think, is there anything juicy I can share? Yeah, it involves a senior diplomat. That's about all I can. All I can do. And I got to meet a bunch of them in Lisbon, and then I'm flying out to the States next month because I can't even begin to tell you why, because I don't actually know. It's the state. Just how my brain works. Just. I realized that the whole thing needs to take place in this place. I won't say where. In Chicago. Having been to Chicago, literally for 24 hours many years ago, when I was working on a documentary, I was there. Yeah, I was there overnight. It was the coldest ever been in my life. And I remember a lovely restaurant and having great fries with. With a burger. For whatever reason, it's stuck in my mind. That's why I'm off there again.
- [28:08]
Zibby Owens
That is enough to base a book on. So there you go.
- [28:11]
Rosie Walsh
There you go. Well, I do want to. That documentary was insane. It was about. Oh, God, I don't know. I don't know if your readers want to hear about this, but. About women taking other women's babies when they're still in utero. Yeah, pretty. Pretty gory, brutal. Pretty appalling subject matter, actually. But there was that. Something like that had happened somewhere just outside Chicago in a. In a tiny town in Illinois. And the woman who'd done it was in, thankfully, in a jail near there. And we had just gone into Chicago for an evening to. To interview a forensic psychologist. So that's definitely not what my story is about. I wonder if that's sort of the, you know, pushing the human experience to its most extreme limits. I wonder if perhaps that had informed my brain's subconscious decision that we needed to go to Chicago. I'm sure wonderful things happen in Chicago, too.
- [29:07]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh. Well, one of these days, hopefully, we will reconnect in person. And I would love that. Yes. My friend across the world here.
- [29:19]
Rosie Walsh
Yes. So many years we've been chatting.
- [29:22]
Zibby Owens
I know.
- [29:22]
Rosie Walsh
And in that time, I've written about seven books. And you've just built this extraordinary empire. I mean, definitely. Hats off to you, Siby.
- [29:30]
Zibby Owens
Hats off to you, too. Just written about seven books. Oh, my gosh. Are you kidding me? Anyway, to be continued in person. Congratulations. Thank you for showing up in every way today. So thank you.
- [29:43]
Rosie Walsh
Thank you.
- [29:43]
Zibby Owens
Best of luck. Today's episode is sponsored by Quints. As you guys know, I am obsessed with quints. I've been talking about them for a while because I love the quality of the clothes, the fit, the price, really everything about it. My two latest finds, which I'm sure you'll see me wearing on Instagram, are this adorable white dress. It goes to the ankle basically and has a tank top on top. And I also got a jean jacket from Quince and I plan on wearing them together all summer long and I'm just super excited about it. Quince has always been my go to, but now the fabrics just feel elevated. The fits are so flattering. Everything just works and I don't have to overthink it. Quince uses premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton and ultra soft denim. Maybe that's why I like it all so much. Their lightweight linen pants and dresses and tops start at $30 and are effortless, breathable and easy to wear on repeat. Everything at Quint's is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. It's amazing. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not brand markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Quince.com Zivi for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Zivi for free Shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Zivi Today's episode is sponsored by Wayfair. After the fire in the Palisades, we had to redo our entire outside area. And we found the best stuff on Wayfair. We found adorable throw pillows that looked fabulous. We found one round carpet, one square carpet. We found coffee tables and all sorts of things that made our outside feel like home again. Wayfair is amazing because it has everything you could possibly need. And it's so easy to find. Wayfair made it so simple for us to narrow it down to what we wanted for our style and budget. It also features reviews, filters, filters and visual tools that help us find the right fit. Every style, every outdoor space. Whether your vibe is modern, coastal, farmhouse or eclectic, Wayfair has the options you need to help you create an outdoor space that's uniquely yours. And everything is in one place. From outdoor seating and grills to storage, patio, lighting and rugs. And decor which is what we got. Wayfair is your one stop shop for Home Plus. You can trust in the delivery, installation and assembly services are available for a truly seamless experience. It was so easy for us to order and receive all of our items. Plus over 20 million verified 5 star reviews helped me make the right call. Real customers, real feedback and real homes. You can also shop with Wayfair Verified. Your shortcut to the good stuff. Their team of product specialists vets everything by hand using a 10 point quality inspection so you know you're getting a quality piece no matter your budget. Get prepped for patio season for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair every style every
- [32:59]
Rosie Walsh
Home Wayfair Every Style Every Home Today's
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Zibby Owens
My steals included a jellycat heart for $5.38 and jelly cat toasty marshmallows for $9.89. Not to mention Anito for $6.26.
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Whatnot Advertiser
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- [34:33]
Zibby Owens
Welcome to Totally Booked Live at the Whitby Hotel. Thrilled to be here with Kelly Yang, the author of the Take. Congratulations Kelly.
- [34:43]
Kelly Yang
Thank you. Thank you so much.
- [34:46]
Zibby Owens
I am personally so excited because my son and I read Kelly's Kelly is well known for her younger readers, books, front Desk is the first one. I read the whole thing out loud to my son last summer, two summers ago. And we have been huge fans. And then I found out she had an adult book coming out, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I have to interview her. And here we are.
- [35:07]
Kelly Yang
Yes, here we are.
- [35:09]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna just quickly read your bio. Okay, so everybody knows Kelly Yang is the number one New York Times best selling author of the Front Desk series. New from Here, Finally Seen, Finally Heard Young adult novels, Parachutes and Private Label and Picture Books. Yes, We Will and Little Bird Layla. Her books have earned multiple awards, including the 2019 AP ALA Award for Children's Literature and the Strega Prize, and have been featured on multiple best of the year lists. Front Desk has been named one of the best books of the 21st century by Kirkus Reviews. I would agree with that. In addition, Kelly has written screenplays and television pilots for Netflix, CBS Studios, and the cw. Kelly immigrated to the United States when she was six years old and grew up in Southern California. She went to college at the age of 13 and is a graduate of UC Berkeley and Harvard Law School, an experience that provides her a unique perspective on aging. The Take is her first adult novel.
- [36:09]
Kelly Yang
Thank you.
- [36:12]
Zibby Owens
Okay. Go back to college at 13.
- [36:15]
Kelly Yang
That's always such a mortifying detail.
- [36:18]
Zibby Owens
Explain.
- [36:19]
Kelly Yang
Oh, well, I mean, I. Yeah, I did unfortunately have that experience because I was. I was moving around a lot and I was just not really. I wasn't really liking high school and my parents and I thought, you know what? Maybe you should take this opportunity, go to college early. There was an opportunity in California and I took it, but it put me on a different trajectory forever. So I don't recommend it for people.
- [36:45]
Zibby Owens
So you graduated college when you were 17?
- [36:47]
Kelly Yang
Yes.
- [36:48]
Rosie Walsh
Wow.
- [36:49]
Kelly Yang
Yeah.
- [36:50]
Zibby Owens
Okay, well, I mean, Front Desk, we'll get to the take, but Front Desk, why don't you talk a little bit about Front Desk and how it relates to.
- [36:59]
Kelly Yang
Okay, so Front Desk is my middle grade series, and it was really birthed because my son Elliot, who was 8 years old at the time, wasn't reading. And not only was he not reading, but he had no idea how he grew up, which is that I grew up helping my parents manage the front desk of a motel. He didn't know because growing up, I didn't have a book like this, so I always felt ashamed of it. I didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell any of my friends. I didn't tell anyone anywhere, really. Not even, like, my own family. Because I looked at this kid and he had no idea about my childhood. So that summer I just decided I was going to kill two birds with one stone and try to write this book that would get him to read and tell him about my life, really. Which was kind of embarrassing, but also so not embarrassing. I wanted him to feel all of the joy and pride, you know, it was an amazing experience. And at the end of the summer, he said, you gotta turn this into a book, mom. Yeah.
- [37:56]
Zibby Owens
And did he actually read it?
- [37:58]
Kelly Yang
Oh, my God, he became such a reader. He's. Yeah.
- [38:02]
Zibby Owens
See, this is all you have to do, guys. Write a number one best selling book. And your kids might read.
- [38:08]
Kelly Yang
Yes, yes, you might. The last part is way more important than the first part.
- [38:13]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh. Well, there are moments from front desk that will stay with me forever. And one is when. And I promise I'll talk about the take, but when one of the guests leaves her jeans behind and I know it's not you, but the main character, I forget her name.
- [38:28]
Kelly Yang
Mia.
- [38:28]
Zibby Owens
Mia, of course. Mia puts on the jeans and starts wearing them and then eventually it becomes clear that they weren't her jeans and she's mortified anyway. It's a whole thing and just the longing and the striving and also how helpful she is and that how she grew up so beyond her years, which you obviously did as well. It's just amazing.
- [38:48]
Kelly Yang
Yeah, I mean, I was thrust into this environment where I had to pretend to be an adult at the age of eight and really people didn't want to take me seriously. And then later on in college, you know, trying to be a college student when I was a teenager and I just wanted to go to the mall and get some ice cream. So at every state, I feel like I've never been the right age at any point in my life until now. Now I finally, I finally feel like I'm the right age. Now.
- [39:14]
Zibby Owens
Can you. How old are you?
- [39:15]
Kelly Yang
I'm 41. Yes.
- [39:17]
Zibby Owens
Okay. But you're going to like your 50th college reunion or something.
- [39:24]
Rosie Walsh
Okay.
- [39:24]
Zibby Owens
So speaking of aging, the take really talks a lot about this. It's all about this, in fact. So why don't you share what the take is about?
- [39:33]
Kelly Yang
Yeah. So the take is about two women who are sick of being told that their time is not now or that their time is almost up. They're both being judged by their age a lot. One we have Maggie Wayne, who is a 23 year old struggling Asian American writer. And she's being told, you know, you don't have enough life experience to write a book. How could you possibly have anything worth writing about at your age? And then we have Ingrid Parker, who is in her 50s. She is a really powerful female Hollywood producer, but she's being told, your time is kind of up. You know, you're losing your relevancy. It's time to move on. We got newer, cooler, hotter producers. And so these two women decide they're going to change the rules on aging by joining to be part of this very experimental blood transfusion medical procedure where they're essentially swapping their blood. So Ingrid gets to de age by about 10 years. Unfortunately, Maggie has to age by about 10 years, but she also gets $3 million. And she looks up to Ingrid because Ingrid is like, has everything she wants. So she's hoping that the time they spend together is going to give her a lot of mentorship and that maybe will help her crack her career.
- [40:48]
Zibby Owens
So, by the way, in the beginning of the book, you have Maggie and her boyfriend at the time who very quickly cheats on her. But I don't think it's giving. It's so early. Whatever, you'll find out. It's okay. And she goes and watches him in conversation with one of their mentors, who has just sort of not loved her own book at this small bookstore in la. And I'm convinced it's mine. Did you model it after my store?
- [41:16]
Kelly Yang
No, no, I did.
- [41:16]
Zibby Owens
And I was like, that's so nice of Kelly. She really could have put the name. That's so funny. No.
- [41:23]
Rosie Walsh
Okay.
- [41:23]
Zibby Owens
All right. Well, it could be. It could be even where the windows are.
- [41:27]
Kelly Yang
Yeah, it could totally be.
- [41:28]
Rosie Walsh
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:29]
Zibby Owens
Manifest it. Anyway, so she's reeling. Maggie's reeling from this breakup. She is reeling from the sense of putting herself on the line with this book that she's written. She wants good feedback, as all writers do, and is not getting it for various reasons. And so she's really open to this opportunity that falls into her lap, not really taking into account what it means to prematurely age. How could anybody really understand it? And her parents, by the way. Everybody in her life is kept in the dark. And it's only later when things get revealed, put us in Maggie's headspace. And why would someone give away their life for $3 million? Or why wouldn't they?
- [42:10]
Kelly Yang
Yeah, I mean, I remember being in my 20s and just being, like, so impatient, almost like violently impatient. I remember going to a book signing by this really famous author and waited in line, and I finally got to talk to her. And I was like, please. Like, I just really want to know how to do it. I'm in my 20s. I've really. I had the story of front desk. I mean, I've had front desk since I was literally 8 years old. I had it in me. I just didn't know how to get it out. And I was telling her, like, I really have this great story. I really want to be an author like you. Like, how do I do it? And she looked at me, and I was. And she just said, how old are you? And I said, I'm 24. And she said, yeah, what do you have to write about at 24? And I.
- [42:51]
Zibby Owens
Who is this author? We will never read her again.
- [42:54]
Kelly Yang
I mean, to be fair, I feel like maybe she wasn't necessarily being malicious, but it came through as that because it set me back by about a decade. I just couldn't. I remember her voice in the back of my head. Cause it's so hard just putting pen to paper. And to have that voice telling you, you don't have it yet. It's not your time yet. How could it possibly be any good? Because of your age. And I just remember the fury of that, you know, the confusion and the fury and the desperation. So, yeah, like, would I sign up at the time for $3 million to age forward 10 years? I mean, what is time anyway when you can't even afford it? You know, you can't afford your dreams at that age. Like, a lot of people are like, well, I wouldn't do it. But then what. What are you also doing that's. That's also aging us, you know, like, all these jobs I took, that really aged me since I was little. So, yeah, that's kind of what. What was in her mind.
- [43:48]
Zibby Owens
Meanwhile, I feel like you've taken the serum, because you have not aged. You look like you're, like, 20 years old. So maybe.
- [43:55]
Kelly Yang
Maybe I've been doing the blood tricks.
- [43:56]
Zibby Owens
I think you might be. I think you might. We just have to find Maggie now and find out who you traded with. Okay. And then Ingrid. Ingrid has her own issues. She's married to Kyle. I am also married to a Kyle. Anyway, he's not here. She's married to Kyle. As you said, her relevancy is waning. And I have to say, I felt very complicated things about Ingrid. I started on her side, and then I'm not so sure. Yes, she does a lot of questionable things. She's a mover and operator. She uses people a lot to get ahead, even the media. Like, she's very skilled.
- [44:30]
Kelly Yang
Very skilled.
- [44:31]
Zibby Owens
And then I was wondering, oh, gosh, what were Kelly's, like, Hollywood experiences? Like, if this is a character horrifying.
- [44:36]
Kelly Yang
They were horrifying. Yeah, absolutely. A lot of this stemmed from my very brief experience working for Hollywood. I was thrust into this again because a front desk, because they wanted to make it into a movie. I was really worried how they were going to portray me, since the book is so autobiographical almost. So I said, yeah, can I please take a crack at writing it? And they kind of, like, sort of agreed, but were really annoyed. You know, Hollywood hates outsiders as a general rule. And, you know, me being the author, they just didn't know what to make of me. And I remember just constantly having to deal with these horrible comments that people would make these snide little remarks, you know, and, yeah, Ingrid is really complicated because she wants all these great things.
- [45:19]
Zibby Owens
Go back. So they gave you bad comments, did they? What happened with the script and the whole project in Hollywood?
- [45:24]
Kelly Yang
Oh, well, thankfully. I mean, thankfully it didn't get made. And I say that as, like, one of the few authors you'll ever meet who's like, thankfully, I didn't get a movie made. No, because, I mean, for me, like, the story is so, so, so special. And if you're not going to do it right, it's probably best not to do it, you know, and. But the turmoil of that, it. It. I, like, bled. It was horrible. You know, it was horrifying to have people that you really admired, that you've watched their movies growing up, treat you like trash, basically, and say, like, at one point, I think somebody made a remark saying having the author be involved in the movie is like us being forced to. To hire a handicapped person that we can't fire. Yeah. And they even reference the scene from Curb youb Enthusiasm where Larry David has a handicapped assistant and he has to find a way to foist this assistant onto someone else. I mean, just like, these remarks. And remember, I was a baby writer, so this was my first book, and to have these comments hurled at me. How do you keep, like, a morsel of faith in your own writing abilities when that's happening? I mean, you're, like, really put through the wringer in this horrifying and unspeakable way. And the reason it's unspeakable is because for me to talk about it, I was always afraid, well, what are you going to call me to the rest of the industry? Am I going to be labeled difficult to work with? You know, which is Like a deal breaker for someone who hasn't paid her dues yet. Right. Am I going to be labeled acting out? Right. These are all these words that they weaponize, especially against women. And I didn't even know how to move on. I mean, it was weird because at the same time, the books were doing so well. So I had. Thankfully, I had the readers. Thankfully. You guys really saved my life because thankfully, the readers proved to me I can write. Right. I can't just keep listening to these voices even though they're powerful and they're successful. Yes. And they're extreme, experienced. But I have to also find a way to listen to my own voice.
- [47:27]
Zibby Owens
So what's going to happen with Will Front Desk ever be made into a movie? Is basically what I want to know.
- [47:31]
Kelly Yang
I hope so. I hope so. I feel like next time I will not be involved in the writing because that was. It was too hard to make art by committee. And that's what it feels like in Hollywood because there's so many different players. I mean, you'll read a lot of this in the take. Just how hands on these people are. I'd have to find the right partners, I think.
- [47:52]
Zibby Owens
But now you're at a different life stage. Right. How long ago was all that happening?
- [47:56]
Kelly Yang
This was like eight years ago. Right. When the book was coming out.
- [47:59]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh.
- [48:00]
Kelly Yang
Yeah.
- [48:00]
Zibby Owens
Not that long.
- [48:01]
Kelly Yang
No. But yeah, I live to tell the story. So here we are and we got a great book out of it.
- [48:06]
Zibby Owens
Okay. So anyway, back to the take. Sorry, back to the take. So we have Ingrid and she is exposing this dark side.
- [48:14]
Rosie Walsh
Yes.
- [48:15]
Zibby Owens
And yet she's trying, and she's trying to escape a cancer diagnosis, a pre cancer diagnosis, by getting this blood transfusion, which is, to be honest, so detailed. Did you. You must have had to talk to doctors.
- [48:27]
Kelly Yang
Yes. Well, my mom is a pancreatic cancer survivor, so we're always putting her through these. I mean, she's a survivor, she's doing great. But we're always putting her through these, like, cutting edge, you know, newest kind of blood tests. And there are tests now that can find the pre cancer cells before they become cancer. And they're always trying to get me to do it. I'm like, no, I don't want to know this. This is like, I have enough problems. I have all these books to write, but I'm always, like, tempted and I'm always thinking, what if, like, what if I took it? Like, what if they found something and it's not cancer yet? So you can't really Treat it with chemo. Like, what do you do? You know? And a lot of cells are pre cancer cells because as we age, I mean, that's just what happens. There's mutations. So that's kind of where that idea came from. But yeah, I mean, Ingrid's a complicated character. You're not supposed to love her, but you are supposed to sympathize with her at different points. And then ask yourself, why are you sympathizing? Why are you sympathizing with certain behaviors? Why is that behavior? Okay, because of her age and certain behaviors that Maggie does, which are also unhinged. Why is that not okay?
- [49:35]
Zibby Owens
So why. What drew you to this whole thing? And why write for grown ups?
- [49:39]
Kelly Yang
I wanted to write a story about aging. And I couldn't do it when they were like eight. But I do. I mean, I love, like, you know what? I needed like a clean slate. I needed to just be fresh and completely un. Like, just not think about anything and totally write from scratch. And that's how I felt with this adult book.
- [50:02]
Zibby Owens
You have a scene in the book where Maggie has to go with Ingrid to New York, and it's like a whole big deal. And here we are in New York right now, and she's like, I'm just gonna talk to all my friends from my writing program and be like, here I am. And maybe I'm gonna massage the truth a little bit about my own project. But this need for approval is just so raw throughout the book. Everyone's approval. Maggie with her friends with the community, Ingrid and her industry. Like, I feel like there is just such a raw longing that these women have in all different ways.
- [50:33]
Kelly Yang
Yes. Yeah. And that's the one thing I'm really grateful with aging is I don't need anyone's approval anymore. You know, I'm just happy being me. And that's something I think you do get with age is not looking for permission anymore. You know, like we're. When I was younger, I just wanted a sign. That's all I wanted was just a sign from somebody who was a somebody to give me a little nod that I could become maybe a somebody too. When really you're not going to get that permission necessarily, and you got to stop chasing it. You have to give yourself permission.
- [51:09]
Zibby Owens
Can you just take us back? How did you go from being the 20 something year old, feeling like you would never write, to then finally getting up the gumption to go back to writing, spilling your story and then having it take off? Like, how did what happened in between?
- [51:27]
Kelly Yang
So I was writing a little newspaper column. I was living in Hong Kong and I had a little newspaper column and that was it. That was my identity, sole identity as a writer. I was really proud of it. But I got fired from the column. The newspaper changed ownership and it went from being independently owned, being owned by Alibaba, which is like our Amazon in Asia. And as a part of that transition, I lost my column. And that actually tell people all the time, you know, that tragedy became such a great, such a blessing. It really was the thing that changed my life. Like, thank God I got fired because it forced me to face my fear. Like, what is stopping me from writing this book? Is it that just that one ridiculous author? Because that's, that's dumb. You know, to let one person's thought on a signing line stop me. What is stopping me? Nothing really. So that, and the fact that my son wasn't reading, which was. Was really heartbreaking for me to see. As someone who loves. Loved books. Loves books and loved books growing up, books really saved my life. So I had to figure out a way to do it.
- [52:38]
Zibby Owens
What, what books are you particularly grateful for? What were you reading? What were you reading when you were, when you were young?
- [52:43]
Kelly Yang
Oh, my gosh. Well, I was reading a lot of series, so I love the Babysitter's Club. I love Goosebumps, all of like, you know, Louis Satcher, Beverly Cleary, all of that stuff.
- [52:55]
Zibby Owens
And are you still, you must be still a huge reader now.
- [52:58]
Kelly Yang
Yes, yes, yes, I am. I am now rereading because of Winn Dixie by my good friend KJ Camillo. I have a podcast with her and I thought, you know what, I'm going to go back and reread all of Kate's books and it's just like, oh, it's like so, it's so, it's so much heart. So if you need like a pick me up, read, read some middle grade
- [53:20]
Zibby Owens
after the take though, read the take first. Tell us more about your podcast.
- [53:25]
Kelly Yang
Oh, I have a very short 10 minute podcast every week on Mondays and we talk about writing and we answer questions from the kids. And it's just a way to try to get kids dehooked from short form video and listen to a longer conversation, which we think is the gateway to reading. It's just like, yeah, hopefully, hopefully they'll want to hear something longer and then they'll want to read something longer because we got to do something about this, guys. Like, if there's one thing that's even more important than all these books is the fact that the kids aren't reading. And we got to do something about that.
- [54:02]
Zibby Owens
What else can we do aside from write books and host podcasts? No, seriously, though.
- [54:06]
Kelly Yang
I mean, the most important thing that an adult can do is read themselves. Because if you read, your kids will see that and they will model that behavior. And, you know, we talk a lot about the kids epidemic of not reading. Well, what about the grownups? You know, what are they doing? They're scrolling on their phones, to be honest with you. And that is what the kids are seeing. So we can't just look at it as a kid's problem. We have to look at it as an everybody problem. We have to do this. Otherwise, if we lose this reading battle, I don't even know where we're going to be in 10 years.
- [54:38]
Zibby Owens
There was an ad. My husband was watching the March Madness whatever tournament, and there was an ad for Gemini. Does anyone have this app? And they showed how you can take your kids schedule, which is actually awesome. Like the academic calendar. You take a picture, you put it in, and it syncs to your calendar, which I tried, which was really cool. But then I said, wow, what else can you do? And they're like, would you like me to write you a short story? And I was like, I literally showed my husband. I was like, my job is done. My industry is over.
- [55:11]
Kelly Yang
Yeah, it's bad. It's bad. People can't read emails anymore. They need the AI summary. You know, the kids don't want to read anything that's longer than, like, you know, a couple sentences. Really, it's. It's a really big problem. I think we can do it though, because I think ultimately we are wired to want conversation and to want a longer story.
- [55:33]
Zibby Owens
Okay, I'm gonna go with that. What are you working on now?
- [55:37]
Kelly Yang
So I just started. Well, we're sort of finishing up the last draft of this adult book that is separate from the take, so hopefully we'll get somewhere with that. Fingers crossed. Every book just feels like, oh, this is. This is not going to work. And then I am starting middle grade again. Yay. So. Well, I'll have to, like, ping pong off the two between adult and middle grade.
- [56:00]
Zibby Owens
Where do you get all your energy?
- [56:02]
Kelly Yang
I don't know. Well, you know what? I think I am honestly most calm when I'm working on something, when I'm working on a story. If I'm not working on a story, then I have way too much anxiety. So it is very therapeutic for me.
- [56:18]
Zibby Owens
You've shared really openly about your mom, pictures of you guys in the hospital, you've shared on social. How is everything going with her now and how are you coping with that in addition to parenting and everything else
- [56:30]
Kelly Yang
you have going on?
- [56:30]
Rosie Walsh
Oh, God.
- [56:31]
Kelly Yang
Well, you know, the sandwich generation and it's just the worst. My mom has been having a lot of health issues lately, but she seems to be stable right now. It's very hard when you have gone through the pancreatic cancer procedure. Even if you survive it, there's like so many literally missing body parts. So it's hard for her. And she's just amazing. Like, I look at her, I'm like, wow. So I'm really glad she's around some more to tell me what to do and to tell me that I'm not doing it well enough. But you know, it's just like every day, one day at a time, you know, you're not going to do anything perfectly. You're going to always feel like you're failing somewhere and that's okay.
- [57:13]
Zibby Owens
So if a 23 year old comes up to you and you're signing line, what do you say to them?
- [57:17]
Kelly Yang
Do it. Do it. Write the story. I don't care if you're 8, write the story. Do it. You're never too old or too young to do what you want to do.
- [57:26]
Zibby Owens
Love it. Kelly, thank you so much. Congratulations.
- [57:28]
Kelly Yang
Thank you so much.
- [57:31]
Zibby Owens
Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review. Follow me on Instagram, Iby Owens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
- [57:53]
Capital One Bank Narrator
This is the Chase Sapphire lounge in Boston. Logan, you got clam chowder in New York, dirty martini over 1300 airport lounges and one card that gets you in Chase Sapphire Reserve now even more rewarding. Learn more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. It's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet. Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC.
- [58:39]
Dr. Susan Swick
I'm Dr. Susan Swick, a child psychiatrist and the host of Talk About Able. This season, I'm talking with parents and experts about how we tackle the everyday challenges of raising kids. We'll get real about those pebble in the shoe issues we all face as parents and how to build resilience and community through our own experiences. Talk About Able Season 2 from Lemonada Media, in partnership with Montage Health and their Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health is out now.