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Totally Booked with Zibby
Sarah Hurwitz, AS A JEW: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us
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- [00:00]
Zibby Owens
Hi listeners, we have totally booked live.
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Coming up this fall and I hope you'll be a part of it. We have three events in New York City, September 19th, 25th and 30th in New York where I'll be doing six interviews live each day. We also have a petite retreat in Greenwich on October 4th. Go to zibbemedia.com and event or and or eventbrite and search the events and please come. I can't wait to meet you in person.
- [00:31]
Sarah Hurwitz
Did I talk too much? Can't I just let it go?
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BetterHelp/Greenlight Ad Voice
Take a breath. You're not alone.
- [00:42]
Zibby Owens
Let's talk about what's going on.
- [00:44]
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- [01:28]
Zibby Owens
Today's episode is sponsored by the Foxed Page, a podcast and YouTube channel that dives deep into the very best books.
- [01:35]
It's basically your favorite college English class.
- [01:38]
But very relaxed and way more fun. No exams, no participation, and only books.
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Sponsor Ad Voice (Wayfair/Quince/Live It Up)
You really want to read.
- [01:44]
Zibby Owens
Kimberly Ford, best selling author, one time professor and PhD in literature, offers up entertaining, often funny talks that will leave you feeling inspired and a little smarter. She digs right into everything from J.D. salinger to Miranda July, from Demon Copperhead to Madame Bovary, from Pride and Prejudice to Lessons in Chemistry. The talks on individual books are the heart of the podcast, but Enriched read segments tackle ideas like unreliable narrators, while old favorite talks treat you to a fresh adult look at childhood gems like Harriet the Spy and Are you there God? It's me, Margaret. Want to get the most out of what you read and be entertained along the way? The Fox page is for you. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're.
- [02:29]
Sponsor Ad Voice (Wayfair/Quince/Live It Up)
Listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly.
- [02:32]
Zibby Owens
Moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's.
- [02:36]
Sponsor Ad Voice (Wayfair/Quince/Live It Up)
Latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors.
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Zibby Owens
And story creators whose work I think.
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Is worth your time.
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As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out. And spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbemedia.com, and follow me on Instagram ibbeowens. Sarah Hurwitz is the author of As a Reclaiming Our Story from those who Blame Shame and Try to Erase Us. Sarah served as a White house speechwriter from 2009 to 2017, first as a senior speechwriter for President Barack Obama and then head speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama. She was the chief speechwriter for Hillary Clinton on her 2008 presidential campaign. Hurwitz is the author of Hear All, Finding Meaning, Spirituality, and a Deeper Connection to Life in Judaism. After finally choosing to Look There, which was a finalist for two National Jewish Book Awards and the Sami Rohr Prize for Jewish Literature. She has been profiled throughout the media, from profiles in the Washington Post, Boston Globe, and the Guardian to appearances on the Today Show, Morning Joe, and NPR. The forward has twice named her one of 50 Jews who has impacted American life. Her was as a graduate of Harvard College and Harvard Law School and was a 2017 fellow at the Institute of Politics at Harvard. This is her second time on Totally Booked.
- [04:09]
Welcome, Sarah. So glad to have you back on Totally Booked to talk about As a Jew, reclaiming our story from those who blame shame and try to erase us.
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Congratulations.
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Sarah Hurwitz
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It is great to be back.
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Zibby Owens
Well, I love how you share your story with the reader in the book of your whole experience from when you were young to now. And then in the middle of it, give everybody a rundown of like everything they need to know, reinterpreted, like simplified and made easily digestible in a time where people are starved for information, I think. And now there is, you know, a Bible, so to speak, renewed. So talk a little bit about the impetus for the project and what you want people to take out of it.
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Sarah Hurwitz
Yeah, you know, it's so funny. I, you know, as you know, I first came on the show when I written my first book, which was basically a love letter to Jewish tradition. It was, you know, I grew up with very little Jewish background. I rediscovered judaism in my mid-30s and I just thought, like, where has this been all my life? I wanted to show people the 4000 years of wisdom about the human condition that our tradition offers that so many of us don't even know exists. So I published this book. It's great. It's fun. Covid hits I'm spending a lot of time just kind of doing what we're all doing, panicking and trying to figure out what's next. And, you know, I started training to be a hospital chaplain because I wanted to do something to help. And was so interesting how so many chaplaincy is open to people of all religious backgrounds and none. But so much of the language we were using was very Christian. It was interesting. You know, there was the idea of prayer was very Christian. We were always talking about our ministry and our theology, and I just thought, like, interesting. And then around in 2022, I went to a college campus where a student said to me, what did you do about anti Semitism when you were in college? And I responded, what? And I literally didn't understand the question. And I said nothing because I never experienced that. And then these kids all started talking about the anti Semitism they were experiencing. And I was like, wait a second. And so I actually kind of asked myself a question like, why didn't I know about my. All the beauty of Jewish tradition? Why was the Judaism I grown up with kind of this oddly edited idea of Judaism? And I dove into history and discovered that my Jewish identity, and I think many American Jews, Jewish identity has been infiltrated and deeply warped by. By centuries and centuries of antisemitism, anti Judaism. And by growing up in a country that is majority Christian, such that we really, we think in Christian terms, we have very negative feelings about Judaism and Jewish tradition. And it's really distanced ourselves from our tradition. And my book is peeling back those layers, all those layers of shame, of distortion, and really, you know, urging that we reclaim Jewish traditions on Jewish terms.
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Zibby Owens
Love that. And you point out some things that maybe people didn't even realize or just how small the population of Jewish people has always been. It's not just now, but even centuries ago, being 1% of the population in say, Europe or Germany, wherever, and having so much energy expended trying to root the Jewish people out. And the question is always, well, why? Like, what's so bad? Why not just ignore us? Like, what's. Why make the fuss? And like, you explain it in detail in the book and trace it over generations. But if you could answer it simply, which of course is impossible, but no, hard to do. So hard to do. But like, why is it such a big, like, why?
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Sarah Hurwitz
Why care?
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Zibby Owens
Why does everybody care so much?
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Sarah Hurwitz
Such a great question. And I think if you're. If you grew up like I did, where your antisemitism education, you got in Holocaust education. You just think, oh, antisemitism is this wild thing that happened in the mid 20th century where out of nowhere the Germans just lost their mind and got Europeans to slaughter 6 million Jews. It was a one off, it was terrible. You know, there's been some bad stuff since then, but oh, what a mystery. Right. We have this idea that it's kind of a mystery and anti Semitism is actually not at all mysterious. It's really a result of centuries and centuries of universalizing traditions that cannot tolerate Jewish difference. And you know, I think a lot of people think of anti Semitism as a kind of social prejudice. Right, right. They think it's like someone saying, well, Jews are cheap, greedy, dirty, ugly. I don't want to marry one, I don't want one in my club. I don't really see that that much anymore in America. But there is a kind of political anti Semitism as a philosopher named Bernard Harrison talks about, which basically it kind of takes the shape of we, the majority are engaged in this grand moral project to save humanity. And the only thing stopping us is the Jews. So you have the 2,000 years ago, you have the grand moral project of Christianity. We are Christianizing the, the Roman Empire and the only thing stopping us are these Jews. We have to do something about this. You have many years later you have communists saying we are bringing about the great revolution of man. And oh my gosh, who's stopping us? These capitalist Jews. You have Germany in Nazi times. We are bringing about the great Aryan revolution. We're going to be this Aryan fatherland. Who's stopping us? These race polluting Jews. And, and then today in modern America you see this on both the right and the left. On the right you have people saying we are going to bring back white Christian civilization to America. The only thing stopping us are these globalist Jews who are importing black and brown people to take the place of white citizens. Which is a bonkers conspiracy theory called the Great Replacement Theory. It is both racist and anti Semitic. And on the left you have people saying we are bringing about anti colonialism, anti racism. Those are the greatest ills in the world and we are fighting them. And guess what? The only thing stopping us, it is this racist colonialist state of Israel. It's these Zionists. So again, it's the same patterns of thought, these same neural grooves of depravity, conspiracy and power. This idea that Jews really embody these things and you just see it over and over again throughout history.
- [10:05]
Zibby Owens
It's actually Quite depressing.
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Sarah Hurwitz
It's very depressing. I know. I'm sorry. My friends and I think what you said about the population being so small is so important. You know, I have. I have friends who are very educated and sophisticated. And one of them said, oh, I thought that there were the same number of Jews, Muslims and Christians in the world. And I was like, oh, Sweetheart, no, we're 16 million with an M. That's the size of one city in China, like, like the fifth largest one. Okay. That's compared to 2.4 billion Christians, 1.9 billion Muslims. So just this, you know, we are a rounding error on the Chinese census, as Rabbi Jonathan Sacks once called us. We are a tiny people. People have just been obsessed with us. And there's actually a scholar named David Nirenberg who wrote this really mind blowing book called Anti Judaism where he talks about, throughout the past few thousand years, Western thought has largely been defined in opposition to Jews. It's sort of like, whatever the bad thing is, it's Jewish and we're going to define ourselves in opposition to it. So it is a deep neural groove in Western thought that is really. It's tough to find yourself in that canyon.
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Zibby Owens
Wow.
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And you show us how. Now it's so hard to find a place and a way to have the dialogue, be proudly Jewish, enter into the debates. And it's so layered to the point where when friends of yours have asked you, like, where you're going, when you were on your way to Israel, you were just like, oh, just on a trip, like, not even wanting to get into it, like, talk a little bit about that.
- [11:37]
Sarah Hurwitz
You know, I've just met so many Jews today who are just feeling very shocked and lost. And I so empathize. I feel the same way. You know, we had this wonderful break from history for 80 years in America where it was really this kind of thriving of liberal democracy. And now we're seeing all these threats against democracy here and around the world, and that is very bad for Jews. And I think there is this instinct to say, like, okay, we're going to fight anti Semitism. We are going to be anti anti Semites. And I so empathize with that. And I have such respect and appreciation for people who are working hard to fight anti Semitism, but just lovingly and with all Due respect, again, 16 million of us, 8 billion others, you know, Jews cannot fight anti Semitism and end it. We just, we just can't. You know, this is. We don't control what haters think of us. Anti Semitism. Comes and goes based on when the people around us are feeling insecure, when they're feeling afraid, and they need someone to blame. So whether it's an economic downturn or a plague, the idea that we control that is actually not true. And it can become, it can kind of take the form of this self shaming of, gosh, if we only had the right tweet, the right PR campaign, then it's just we're failing. And I just respectfully, again, that's not it. You know, I think instead of trying to be anti, anti Semite, it's what I really would just passionately urge Jews to do. And what I'm trying so hard to do is let's be Jews. Let's be proud, learned, passionate, engaged Jews. And you know, I tell students on college campuses when I speak, you know, if people won't let you be in their club because you're a Zionist, even, by the way, when that means that you strongly oppose the Israeli government, you strongly oppose many of its policies, but you just think Israel should exist if even that is not tolerable to your classmates, form your own club. You know, you can form your own climate club. Instead of sitting around hating Zionists, you can just do climate change and make that club open to everyone, every student of every background, anyone who wants to join you, you welcome them in and you make it an amazing club. This is what Jews have always done in this country. You know, we built, when we excluded, we built our own law firms, universities, hospitals, and we welcomed anyone who wanted to join us. And I think that that's something that we can do again if we have to.
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Zibby Owens
But now a lot not to counter this, but now a lot of those institutions are becoming infiltrated with people who also then hate Jews. Like Jewish hospitals who now have like, you know, protests.
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Sarah Hurwitz
And so it's starting the cycle, starting over again. Ironically, it is. And it's, you know, this is kind of. And I just. Something that I love about our people is we don't just tear down. We don't tear down. We build right when we are threatened, when we are struggling, you know, we build. That's what we do. Can we create our own things? We, we dive into our texts, we dive into our wisdom and our tradition. And we have so much to offer the world right now. You know, Jewish tradition has this countercultural wisdom that we desperately need right now. And, you know, I'm happy to share some of it if it's of interest, but that is something I really want Jews to know about their traditions. And to be proud. Because here's the thing. If you don't know anything about Jewish tradition, you can't really do much in the face of anti Semitism. If you don't know Jewish history and someone tells you Israel is a Nazi colonial state, what are you going to say? Like, I love Tikkun olam? That's not a, that's not a response. If someone tells you, oh, the Jewish God is, is vengeful and Judaism is legalistic and unspiritual, where you're going to say, like, I like Seinfeld, my bubby made good kugel. You know, this kind of thin, contentless kind of Judaism as an ethnic joke identity any so heartbreaking because you're missing out on 4,000 years of wisdom and community and tradition. And B, it just renders you totally helpless in the face of even the slightest antisemitism.
- [15:19]
Zibby Owens
It's so true. At some point in the book, you were like trying to make all these points and every issue you tackle, you can see you wrestling with trying to make it clear. You do make it clear, but there's such nuance to everything. And there was one section where you were like, okay, well, now I'm going to be accused of what about ism? Like, what about this? What about that? So talk about even the act of writing this and hearing all the voices and trying to get ahead of what people are going to say and how you wrote a book having to counter that along the way.
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Zibby Owens
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- [20:05]
Zibby Owens
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- [20:56]
Sarah Hurwitz
Gosh, I love this question because you're right, this is such a struggle because I'm actually someone with a lot of imposter syndrome and a lot of anxiety about writing where it's like, any sentence I write, I'm already thinking of 20 counter arguments, right? And I. And you could say, well, that's bad. I actually think it's great. I actually think that for me, that's kind of. I mean, it makes me miserable, but it's actually kind of a strength because I'm always trying to think about the other side. And something that I did. I showed this book to either one or more chapters, to 80 people, 80 different people, people from all across the Jewish spectrum, the political spectrum. And I said, push back at me. Tell me what doesn't work. Tell me what hates you the wrong way. Tell me what's inaccurate. Tell me the arguments I'm missing. And as a result, my book is just so much better. It's so much more thoughtful, it's more nuanced. So I think some of the nuance you're seeing is not necessarily from me originally. I originally can be quite strident and polemical and I had People pushing back on me, saying, hey, wait a second, that's not fair, or, you missed this counter argument. And I thought, okay, I really wanted to write with a lot of compassion and humanity. And I am so tired of this polarization that we experience, which is so profoundly un. Jewish. You know, Jewish tradition operates in polarities. It's never good, bad, wrong, right? It's. You're holding competing truths. You know, the Torah tells us, love the stranger, care about the stranger. No fewer than 36 times, the stranger is the non Jew. It's the person from outside who's vulnerable, and we are commanded to care for them. It also says, remember Amalek, The Amalekites were a tribe that attacked the Israelites, the Jews, from behind, meaning they were attacking the weakest members of the tribe, a terrible enemy. And so we're also being told, but don't be naive. Remember that there are people who hate you and want to kill you. You've got to hold both of those polarities. Love the stranger. Remember Amalek. And I see people who are just clinging to their one polarity so furiously and angrily, and that. I'm sorry, that's just a contradiction to Jewish thinking, which is always balancing these competing claims. Kindness versus honesty, justice versus compassion. You got to hold them both.
- [23:00]
Zibby Owens
So it's really easy to be Jewish, huh?
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Sarah Hurwitz
So easy. I mean, come on. So straightforward texts. I mean, come on, no big deal.
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Zibby Owens
I mean, you're simple in the book, though. You continuously, like, all the way through are saying, you get that this is challenging. Like, you get that there is a lot of questioning, and that is actually what it means to be Jewish is to question and debate and all of this. And that you yourself understand how it is to reject all this. Like, that's a lot to ask. Like, people are really busy and, you know, how much brain space do you need to commit to this when you're trying to make a living and raise kids? And da, da, da, like, now everybody has to do a deep dive into 4,000 years, you know, like, so totally.
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Sarah Hurwitz
This is why I write my books, for precisely this reason. Like, people are raising families, they are doing jobs. They are taking care of all kinds of crises and challenges and problems in their lives. I would never say to someone, you have to spend 20 hours a week studying Jewish texts. Like, that's not fair. We don't have time for that. But, you know, something that I love about our people is if. If you walk into almost any Jew's house, you see so many books, right? Jews are studying all the time they're studying the great books that you promote, they're studying all kinds of the bestsellers, the intellectual books, the self help books. Like Jews are constantly studying other people's traditions and ideas and, and all I'm asking them to do is just study ours. And even more basic than that, what I want to tell them is like, we have wisdom, which if you grew up like I did, I showed up twice a year at a synagogue and there was a seder, which I thought was boring and a Hanukkah party was awesome. And then there was Tikkun Alam and there were two texts. There was the thing on the scrolls, the Torah and the book we were holding in our hand, the prayer book. That was the Judaism, right. I didn't know, you know, I knew that Catholics had thoughts about things like abortion and contraception. I knew that with the politicians I followed, I knew that they had ideas about poverty and criminal justice and immigration. I had no idea that Jewish tradition had thousands of years of wisdom about precisely these issues and so many more. Grief, you know, death, illness, dying, aging, loneliness, how to be a good parent, spouse, partner, friend. We have so much wisdom and it's often a lot deeper and a lot more profound than whatever kind of, you know, you do you thing that the latest influencer is telling you. And so many Jews don't even know about that. So, you know, I want to tell Jews, and by the way, anyone who's interested in Jewish tradition, I've learned so much from other traditions, so I'm please welcome in everyone. But I want to tell people, A, we have this wisdom and B, you have to do some work, you got to read some books. But we can do this. Jews read books or listen to books. However, however you do this, it does take some work, it's true, but it's okay.
- [25:47]
Zibby Owens
It comes with the territory. By the way, I was so happy when I got to the part where you talk about antisemitism in the publishing industry right now. Because you know, that is something I've been trying. Obviously those of us in the publishing world are affected by this, continually talk about it, but I still feel like it doesn't get enough pushback or nothing ends up happening as a result of calling it out. And so the fact that now it's in a book, like in history, and that you put it in the context of where it belongs, like talk a little bit about that. And how do you feel now putting out a book, which of course is in this environment of anti Semitism and everything, and then including the publishing piece in it.
- [26:32]
Sarah Hurwitz
Yeah. I mean, this was a section where I talked about several different industries. Right. There was the therapy and the psychological industry. There was the publishing industry.
- [26:39]
Zibby Owens
Yep.
- [26:39]
Sarah Hurwitz
There was. I mean, there was academia, and unfortunately, I think there are a lot of other industries I could have written about too. You know, I have been so tremendously lucky with this book. I have gotten the most amazing. Harper1 at HarperCollins has been absolutely amazing. I've been amazing publisher, editor, marketer, publicist. Like, every person has been so supportive of me. So I feel like I have been lucky. But I know, you know, seeing. Seeing the way that many authors are using their platforms and, you know, writing letters and saying things that I just think are not. They're not thoughtful criticisms. I spend so much time criticism, criticizing Israel. I have lots of criticisms. I've spent a lot of time criticizing America and our current leadership. But there's a big difference between a thoughtful critique that says, this policy is unacceptable. This is hugely problematic. This is. And calling someone Nazis. Right. Like this is. And just labeling things with these ugly terms without backing up with facts, without making an argument. That's not acceptable. You know, if you want to have an argument about something, I will have that argument. That's appropriate. But, you know, I gotta say, I spoke on 27 college campuses and I wasn't seeing a lot of facts or arguments. I was seeing a lot of very ugly name calling. And I think it was so confusing for these poor students who are only taught about Holocaust anti Semitism. Right. So they're like, well, there are no Nazis here, so I guess it's not anti Semitism. And I would have to tell them, you know, sweetheart, you've just told me that I can't wear an Israel T shirt on campus. If one of your black classmates said, oh, it's okay here, but I can't wear my BLM T shirt, I'll get totally harassed and ostracized. I hope you would feel comfortable saying that's racism, because that's racism. Or if one of your career classmates can't wear their pride flag T shirt because they say, well, you know, it's fine for queer students, but I can't wear my pride flag T shirt. I hope you would say, no, sorry, that's homophobia. You know, when the majority is telling a minority how to live out and express their identity, and we've got a real problem. And I would really hope if one of your Chinese American classmates was being harassed because China is interning a million Muslim Uyghurs. Right now and committing horrific human rights abuses. I hope you would say, wow, that is racism. And I stand firmly against that. You know, it's so easy for us to see things clearly when it's any other group. And I think it's time for us to really start seeing clearly when it's Jews.
- [28:54]
Zibby Owens
So leave us with some hope here. I need a dose of hope.
- [29:00]
Sarah Hurwitz
Oh, I'm so. I.
- [29:01]
Zibby Owens
Where is the hope?
- [29:02]
Sarah Hurwitz
Okay, two things. Number one, you know, speaking on so many college campuses, the Jewish students who I met at all of these Hillels, they were so thoughtful and nuanced and careful, and they were marshaling facts and making arguments and correcting each other. And I just felt like, wait, so many of your classmates are outside just screaming slogans like, what's happening here? And I realized that, you know, unfortunately, because they're constantly challenged, doubted, insulted by their classmates, they've really learned to defend themselves. They've really learned to make arguments, to marshal facts. They've really thought very, very carefully about their opinions. They don't have these sort of poorly thought out opinions. They've really had to think because they're constantly challenged. And unfortunately, I think a lot of their classmates aren't. And, you know, that does not mean this is okay. It is not okay at all. But I'm seeing these Jewish students really engage in some resilience and some that, you know, they're strong, they are thoughtful, they make me feel quite hopeful about the Jewish future. And what also makes us hopeful, Our wisdom. You know, I'm looking at, you know, people always say that there's this old anti Semitic idea that, you know, Judaism is a religion of law. It's legalistic and nitpicky. Christianity is about love and grace. That's not true. If you actually study Jewish law, it articulates such a high bar for love, and it does that by being in the weeds. You know, when it tells you if you go into a store and you have no intention of buying something, then don't ask the shopkeeper the price of an item because you're just wasting their time. Or when Jewish law tells you if you've loaned money to someone who's struggling and you see them a few weeks later and you know they still can't afford to repay you don't run into them, actually walk the other way so you don't humiliate them. Now you could say, oh, so weedy. Why do you need these hyper specific scenarios? Why can't you just say, help the poor, be nice to workers and the reason is because Jewish law is trying to inculcate this exquisite sensitivity to the needs and humanity and dignity of every single person in your path. It's sort of pushing you to see them with all these little specific scenarios, to really see them. It's like when the eye doctor clicks the vision machine and makes your vision crisper and crisper. That's what Jewish law. All of these. But what if this and what if that and what if this scenario, they're trying to make you really see this person. And it is the exact opposite of this ugly, dividing people up into two crude, dehumanizing categories of powerful, powerless, oppressor, oppressed, and then hating and loving them accordingly. That's clicking the vision machine backwards and making everything blurry. See, right here, this is just a small piece of Jewish wisdom that I think has so much to offer for our times, and there is so much more. There is millions and millions of pages more where that came from. So I just feel really hopeful about the prospect of sharing this with people. I feel hopeful about the young people who are thoughtful and engaged and who I think can really receive this. And I. So I do have some hope.
- [31:49]
Zibby Owens
Good.
- [31:50]
Sarah Hurwitz
Excellent.
- [31:52]
Zibby Owens
Well, I have hope based on your book and obviously based on just how resilient and wonderful the Jewish people are. I mean, reading this and hearing about even some instances in history that, like, I had learned about, but you wrote in more detail or reminded or put into context, and I was like, this is pretty amazing. You know, like, this is. We're not going anywhere.
- [32:16]
Sarah Hurwitz
So we're not going anywhere. And you know what we make. We do terrible things like any other people. Right? We are a people. But our story, I'm proud of it. I'm proud of our story. And I think we still have wisdom to offer the world. And I'm so excited for this tradition to keep talking.
- [32:30]
Zibby Owens
Well, thank you for taking the time to do this and for becoming a chaplain. That's, like, so amazingly nice. You just, like, breezed through that. I know you wrote more about it in the book.
- [32:39]
Thank goodness.
- [32:40]
But that was amazing. And I was like, oh, time to.
- [32:43]
Google how to be a chaplain.
- [32:44]
Sarah Hurwitz
But anyway, I know you would love it. It's a great, amazing experience.
- [32:47]
Zibby Owens
Anyway, thank you. And I know this will lead to so many interesting conversations.
- [32:51]
I can't wait to follow along and.
- [32:53]
Go to your events and just hear what comes out of it, because it's.
- [32:57]
So important right now. So thank you.
- [32:59]
Sarah Hurwitz
Thank you so much, Zibby.
- [33:01]
Zibby Owens
Thank you.
- [33:02]
Sarah Hurwitz
Thank you.
- [33:03]
Zibby Owens
Thank you for listening to. Totally booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ibbyoans and spread the word.
- [33:16]
Thanks so much.
- [33:17]
Oh, and buy the books.
- [33:25]
Paige Desorbo
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Sarah Hurwitz
Acast powers the World's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend it.
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