← Totally Booked with Zibby
Totally Booked with Zibby
Sarah Spain and Deland McCullough, RUNS IN THE FAMILY: Runs in the Family An Incredible True Story of Football, Fatherhood, and Belonging
00:33:06
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- [00:00]
Howie Mandel
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com campaign to terms and conditions apply. There's a part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian.
- [00:34]
Sarah Spain
Apparently I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house. But I also know what isn't funny. Ocd. I've lived with OCD my entire life and people throw the term around like it's no big deal. But OCD is severe, often debilitating. It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but but for ocd, it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about nocd.
- [01:06]
Howie Mandel
NOCD is the world's largest treatment provider.
- [01:09]
Sarah Spain
For OCD and is covered by Insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their licensed therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to nocd.com to book a free 15 minute call.
- [01:27]
Howie Mandel
They are here to help.
- [01:31]
Zibby Owens
Today's episode is sponsored by gab. The youth mental health crisis is everywhere right now and we know social media plays a huge role. The US Surgeon General warns that kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to experience depression and anxiety. That's a real wake up call with four kids of my own. Back to school always brings up the same questions. Who needs a phone? What kind? And how do we make sure it's actually safe between after school activities, carpools and practices? They need to be connected but not pulled into social media. So here's the good news. A company called Gab G A B B has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is called Tech in Steps and I am obsessed. Tech and Steps provides kids safe phones and watches with no social media, no Internet apps, tailored to every age. And by the way, it looks just like a real phone so the kids are super happy about it. From GPS enabled watches for younger kids to parent controlled phones for tweens and teens. It even by the way tells me when the battery is running low. Each device supports your child's growing independence safely. Bottom line, you don't have to give your kid a phone made for adults this school year. Get them Gab. It keeps them connected without the downside. I can't recommend Gab enough. It finally put an end to all the fighting about phones. Use my code to get the best deal on something that will make parenting easier and give you peace of mind all school year long. And by the way, make your kids happy. Visit gabb.com totallybooked and use code totallybooked for a special back to school offer. That's gab G A B B hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books in my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibyoens Sarah Spain and Dyland McCullough are the co authors of Runs in the An Incredible True Story of Football, Fatherhood and Belonging. Sarah Spain is an Emmy and Peabody Award winning sports journalist, the Hosts of the iHeart Daily Women's sports sports podcast Good Game with Sarah Spain and an ESPNW contributor. She has been a Jack of all trades in her 14 years at ESPN as a radio and podcast host, television personality, producer and writer. Spain is a graduate of Cornell University where she completed as a heptathlete and served as co captain of the track and field team. She lives in Chicago with her husband Brad and their three rescue dogs. Dyland McCullough is a celebrated football figure who excelled as both a player and coach. A four year starter and the all time rushing leader at Miami University Ohio, he was inducted into its Athletics hall of Fame after he led the NFL in preseason rushing with the Bengals. Knee injuries ended his pro career, which included stints with the Eagles and the CFL's Blue Bombers where he was a 1999 All Star nominee. Transitioning to coaching, McAuliffe became one of football's premier running back coaches, helping nearly 20 RBs to 1000 yard seasons. A five time national finalist for top RB coach, he played A key role in the Chiefs season Super Bowl 54 win. An author and part of the team that created the EMMY Award winning E60 feature identity, McCullough resides in Las Vegas, Nevada as running back coach for the Raiders. Welcome Dyland and Sarah. I am so excited to talk to you both about Runs in the Family, an incredible true story of football, fatherhood and belonging. Congratulations.
- [05:33]
Sarah Spain
Thank you, thank you.
- [05:35]
Zibby Owens
Oh my gosh, what a story. So this story is about so many things and there is a huge twist that happens which is in the public domain. But for those listening, I don't know, I did not know what the twist was. And as I was reading it, I kept like talking to my kids and being like, okay, I know something's about to happen, but I don't know what it is. And then I was like, oh my gosh, you guys. So anyway, I was very excited about the whole thing. Congratulations. Why don't you talk about what the book is. Is about both of you?
- [06:07]
Howie Mandel
Sir, I'll go ahead.
- [06:08]
Sarah Spain
It's your life. So let's, let's the story of your life.
- [06:12]
Howie Mandel
Yeah, I mean, well, I mean it is pretty well chronicled the way that Sarah and espn, but definitely the way that Sarah captured the essence of everything here in the book. And I was kind of co piloting and just kind of helping provide some guard rails for that. But I mean, it is what it is. I mean it's a situation where a great story. I believe that this talks about perseverance, adversity, obviously kind of framed up in the, you know, with football that's kind of the outlier, kind of the blanket over the whole top of everything and just everything that happened along the way and some of the things that happened in my life. So yes, it was hard, it was therapeutic. It was tough. Doing this thing was tough. But I'm going to tell you what the product is out there now. The feedback from not only people who've read it, you know, beyond my family, but I'm telling you, the part that I'm most proud of is how my family, my friends have responded to it. And those were the people who I was most concerned about, to be honest. And they have just completely. They've embraced it. And I think if they've embraced it and they know the things that's in there and they know that the players are. I think the public will also.
- [07:23]
Sarah Spain
Yeah. Dylan's friend, our mutual friend Skip brought me this story a handful of years ago when I was working full time at ESPN and gave me a 5 minute less than 5 minute synopsis and I had chills and I was almost on the brink of tears. And so we did an E60 feature and a written story about it and we knew pretty soon after that it needed to be a book. There were so many people clamoring to hear more. And ultimately it's the story of Dyland, a kid who grew up in Youngstown just after the industrial collapse. So a lot of families struggling, his adoptive dad leaves when he's two, so he's sort of doubly rejected by father figures, the parents he never met, his birth parents. And then this adoptive father that leaves too, sort of doesn't realize it, but is struggling from a lot of the feelings that adopted children have about self doubt and worth and identity, but they don't talk about it much. And so he finds his way into football and it becomes this release and this escape and ends up getting recruited by a handful of people to play college football, including a fellow young stonian who had gone on to make it big in the NFL. Sherman Smith comes to recruit him. They end up hitting it off. He goes to Miami of Ohio, breaks a bunch of records, gets into football, ultimately wants to play, but injuries stop him. So goes to the coaching route and is being mentored by Sherman others throughout the way. Has four kids, which I think Zibby, you have four kids too, so you, you can understand the feeling of where did my kid get this from? Why does one kid look like this? Why does one kid have this? Is that all from my wife's side of the family? What's coming from me? I've never met anyone that looks like me or talks like me or shares my blood. And he has that for 40 plus years until the laws change. He can find his birth certificate, ultimately find his birth parents. And that's the twist you talk about that's in the public domain. But it's so unbelievable that if we didn't tell you this is real and when we did the ESPN story, we demanded the paternity test just in case to make sure this was real. And yeah, it's just, it's a really incredible story.
- [09:15]
Zibby Owens
It is a really incredible story. And by the way, even with four biological children, I still don't know where half the stuff came from in them. I'm like, I have no idea. People are like, oh, are you good at acting too? Can you sing? And I'm like, no, I don't know where it comes from. Kids are born with all these crazy gifts. It's like, who knows? So anyway, but your kids are adorable. I saw in the book, at least. They're just so amazing. I feel like this book is really about resilience. Yes, it's about found family and, you know, reunions at the end and, you know, this, the big payoff sort of going through it. But really it's about how much you have gotten through in your life. And Sarah, I love that you take us through it. I love that there's commentary on the. Some of the psychological growth that is happening through the facts and things that I had never thought of before, like how being part of a team in football, like, recreates a family system and just some of these other little nuggets you sprinkle throughout that I found absolutely fascinating. But resilience is at the heart of everything. Hard work, resilience, getting through being your best. Like, why do you think that. That. I know that there was a moment in time in high school in the book where. Dylan, do you felt like I was just going to decide. I just decided I would work harder. Like that was just going to be my way out. I'm just going to do that. But that is not a natural instinct to the vast majority of people out there. So tell me about just how you think you get through stuff so well. Like, why, how. How could we bottle this?
- [10:52]
Howie Mandel
Yeah, I wish I could give it to you cleanly. But, you know, for me, it was just the environment that I was in. I think some of what my goals were, and although I may not be able to realize them on the surface at that moment, it's just like a. A switch flipped in my mind to say, you know what? I may not be the biggest, strongest, fastest, smartest, whatever, but I'm gonna make a name for myself off of how I work. And the thing with that, and I always tell my. I always talk to my players about this. I said that hard work and just that drive to say, you know what? I'm going to be noticed as somebody who never gives up and works hard, so on and so forth. It unlocked a talent that I had football, because you couldn't have said, but this guy's really talented. Maybe when I was sophomore, freshman year or whatever, junior year, junior year was looking a little bit better, but my senior year, it was like, wow, this guy's really, really good. But it was that. I don't know if that would have been realized if I didn't work the way I did. So there's a lot of sub lessons in there that I'm excited about, a ton of them. But as you asked about resilience, that's just what I decided to do. And say, you know what? I'm gonna flip this switch. I'm gonna be a person that at least on the field. And as I go around in my community, the guys on my team that can look up to me and say, this guy's gonna work hard and give 100% all the time.
- [12:08]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh, I love that. What about in the face of some of these obstacles? I mean, there's one piece of the story where we go in depth into your childhood and some of the abuse that you went through. And there's one scene where your mom pulls you in at like three in the morning in between you and Frank and is like, you know, stand here and just. My heart broke for you. But then there are things that were out of your control. I mean, not that that wasn't out of your control. It was also out of your control. But, you know, when you had your knee injury and the compound fracture and then the ACL on the other side, it just like kept going. I'm like, oh, no. Like, I thought that we were about to have this big, like, you know, NFL payoff story here, yet things kept setting you back. How do you not go into like a dark place, like, can't the universe give me a break type of thing?
- [13:00]
Howie Mandel
Well, I mean, I looked at it like the universe was balancing some things out to a degree too, because there's a lot of things in the book that, that were self inflicted, you know, so it's almost like, hey, it was that give and take of the universe. But for me, I think when we using, you know, the universes, that thing that's out there, I think that ultimately seen what my. Where my heart was and that I wanted to do really great things on the field. I want to be a good person. I want to represent the right things. And I think it just all balanced itself out. But it was tough during those times because I'm sitting up saying, wow, you know, every step it was. I think I would accomplish something and then I would just get knocked back down. I had this great college career. Like, well, I'm about to get, get drafted. Everybody told me to get drafted. Next thing you know, I'm undrafted. I'm the last guy on the depth chart going to the next place. So every step along the. All the way up through coaching, all the way to here. But those are the things that fuel me. You know, I still got the same fuel, the same fire that I had when I was in the sixth grade, or when I was in the ninth grade, when I was in the 12th grade, or when I was a freshman at Miami, but when I was a rookie at the Bengals, so on and so forth. So those are things that just drive me.
- [14:10]
Zibby Owens
I was very upset with the Bengals, by the way, for calling you. And then not. I was like, how could they do that? That's so mean.
- [14:16]
Sarah Spain
What a tease.
- [14:17]
Zibby Owens
What a tease.
- [14:18]
Sarah Spain
Zibby. I have to say that I found that too. While doing interviews for the book and while talking to him and all of his family members. There were moments where I think I would have been resentful. You know, there's the anecdote in there about his teacher who helps him go to prom and pays for the tux and the car rental and the boutonniere and the dinner. And Dylan wasn't going to go. He simply couldn't afford it. And to have a teacher step in, instead of being frustrated that he couldn't just be like most of the other kids and have things come easy, he felt like it was a gift. He was like, oh, the universe keeps handing me people who are willing to help. And there were so many people in Youngstown at that time that did get into trouble and friends of his that got into pretty serious trouble. And he felt like along the way there were folks helping him stay out of trouble that saw something in him that was great. And you know, I read probably nine books maybe as research for this book, because I really wanted to understand all the different ways that adoption can impact people. I wanted to understand ending generational cycles of trauma. I wanted to understand what we actually get from DNA versus what we get from family systems and emotional DNA and the things that are passed on via lessons and messaging. And as you point out, I put a lot of that in the book because I want people to read it to not only be like, oh, cool Dylan story, but also, wow, hey, I can choose in my family what I want to take with me to the next generation and what I want to end with me, what I don't think serves me and the people coming after and even heal backwards. And so in doing all that research, it really struck me that some of the very that Dylan struggled with as a youngster also were the drivers for his success. The self doubt, the belief that other people didn't believe he could be great was what drove him to work harder and be determined. And so while it was hard for him because he felt like people didn't believe in him, it was actually also what Completely helped him make it to where he is now, a Super bowl winning coach and a fantastic dad. But so many people, I think, don't react to trauma that way. They repeat it, or they end up becoming the thing that they saw. And so the most remarkable part of Jelan's story, I think, is how he decided. I don't want to be like the father figures who have not taken responsibility. I don't want to be like the men in my life who were abusive or didn't stick around. And how he's become this incredible dad and father to all the kids that he coaches and men that he coaches in the same way. It's just really impressive.
- [16:42]
Zibby Owens
You're like a mensch.
- [16:44]
Sarah Spain
You know what that is, Dylan?
- [16:46]
Howie Mandel
No, I don't. That's why you can't see my hand. I raised my hand. I'm like, what's that?
- [16:51]
Sarah Spain
Excuse me. What mensch?
- [16:53]
Zibby Owens
He is, like, a really good guy. Just like a really good guy. Really a special guy.
- [16:59]
Sarah Spain
I'm.
- [16:59]
Howie Mandel
Look that one up. Okay, I'm gonna look that one.
- [17:03]
Zibby Owens
So, Sarah, when you were delving into the story, how did you decide and Dylan, how did you collaborate on this and how much of what to include? Like, there's so much. And there's so much about the family and your older brother and your mom and the neighborhood, and then, like, the. The trends in. In, you know, what made Youngstown what it was, and, you know, societal trends, and you're an ac. And what happened. I mean, there was just so much we really went there. Like, was it to. Mostly to contrast with, like, just tell me about decision making in terms of.
- [17:43]
Sarah Spain
I'll tell you about my decision making. And then Dylan can step in and be like, and here's why we didn't include some stuff and. Or here's what we did think was worth keeping. So, you know, for me, partly when a story begins in the 70s, for people reading it who weren't around then, I like to set the place. And I also felt like Youngstown was almost like another parent for Dylan. There was such an impact on him and his brother and his family based on what was going on in the city at that time and how different things would have been if they had lived so many other places and gone through the same thing. And I think Dylan says, from the very beginning, I really didn't ask a lot of questions about where I came from, because everybody was dealing with some big stuff. People were struggling to pay bills. His mom was constantly working to try to keep them having a phone or Heat or electricity. So the idea of let me sit around and navel gaze about who my birth parents are is not the same as maybe a very privileged kid who's being handed everything and wants to know more. Right. And so I thought it was really important to set the scene for what the people around him were doing and also why his adopted mom made the best choices that she could in a really difficult time. Right. I think Adele is a character for some people where they'll have issues with some of the things that she brings into the house. But ultimately, she's working so hard to pay for their education, to show them the benefit of hard work, to teach them how to make choices for themselves. And God will show you two choices, how to be good and bad, and you get to choose and deal in bringing that throughout his whole life. And so I think understanding just how tough it was in Youngstown was really necessary. And then to my earlier point, I think the more detail you can give, the more relatable something is. People often think the opposite. Be really vague and everyone will know. The more detail you provide, the more other people see themselves in this. And I felt like reading all those books and educating myself. I was like, I'm so lucky I get to learn all this. And how different would the world be if other people knew this? About messaging and family systems, about the emotional DNA they carry, about epigenetics and how your DNA can actually be influenced so deeply by the atmosphere that you're in and the influence of everyone from your family to the town you're in. And so, for me, I wanted to include all that to really tell a rich story of his life and not have it be played football. Found his dad. Whoa. He knew him, you know, like, really have it be about, especially to me, adoption and the chosen family and chosen parenthood and the choices we all make.
- [20:07]
Zibby Owens
Today's episode has been sponsored by Wayfair. I am so sad that summer is winding down. I look forward to it all year. But there is something nice about getting back into a routine, going back to school and all that. But it does make me want to refresh my spaces and upgrade my style. For the new school year, I decided to get a new light fixture from Wayfair, which I'm really excited about, because I was really tired of our dining room always being a little bit too dark. So as summer winds down, you also can get back into a routine you love with Wayfair. Wayfair, if you don't know, has bedding and linens and lighting and storage and it's really your one stop shop for everything from desks and bookcases and office chairs or whatever. Anything I get. It comes so quickly. The light fixture had overnight delivery and came. It looked perfect and it totally was hassle free and easy. And really Wayfair has everything your home needs for this season. The huge selection of outdoor and indoor items and back to school and everything makes it easy to shop for items on a budget. Or if you want to splurge, there's something for every style and every home, no matter your space or budget. Plus free and easy delivery. Even on the big stuff. It's just great. I'm obsessed with Wayfair. So get organized, refreshed and back to routine. For way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair every style, every home Today's episode has been sponsored by Quince. As summer winds down, I am all about refreshing my wardrobe with staple pieces for the season ahead. Quince totally nails it with luxe essentials that feel effortless and look polished, perfect for layering and mixing. Their styles are so versatile I find myself reaching for them again and again. In fact, you'll see me wearing them all over my Instagram feed. Think cashmere and cotton sweaters starting at $40, washable silk tops and classic denim pants. The best part is that everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes you'll see on Instagram. I love my Quince skirt. I've been wearing it all summer and it is a fabulous fabric. It's long, the pattern's amazing and it's just amazing. Plus the price was great so I just absolutely adore it. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quince. Go to quince.com zibby for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com zibby to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com zippy listen up.
- [23:07]
Sarah Spain
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- [23:22]
Howie Mandel
This is a great deal.
- [23:25]
Sarah Spain
Exactly. So it doesn't need all that.
- [23:29]
Zibby Owens
Fine.
- [23:30]
Sarah Spain
Head to your nearest boost mobile store right now. Visit your nearest boost mobile store for full offer details. Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later restrictions apply.
- [23:39]
Zibby Owens
There was a moment when your mom was like, when. When. I think it was after Frank left. Yeah, I think it was after Frank left. It doesn't matter anyway. And you were talking about a father figure, and she was like, look, like the heavenly father is your father. Like, it's okay. You're always gonna have a father and he's always gonna be up there for you. So, like, let's just move on. I feel like I could feel her love in the strength of her love in the descriptions. Like, I felt no judgment at all. Like, what came through in the book was, like, just the sacrifices she was willing to make and how she was clearly doing her best. And then, you know, I felt kind of sorry for her at the end when she's. Like, when she had the hardest time sort of coming to terms with the fact that there is this new introduction of another sort of mother figure in your life. How is that going, by the way?
- [24:28]
Howie Mandel
Yes, everything is going good with that, you know, and just like, you know, just to go backwards, to go forward, you know, as you. As I go back, and I think about, you know, the fact that I wanted a father so bad, you know, that I was, you know, just looking for that father figure. And. And she knew that. She knew that that was something that she really couldn't do. She couldn't be, you know, me and my brother's father. That. That even drove her even more. And you go. You get to see. And Sarah did a great job of laying out her background of why she kept giving so many opportunities. She was given opportunities because she thought she can fix this person. She wanted to. It was. There was, like, all these different prongs of things that she was trying to accomplish by whipping these guys into shape and saying, look, I want you to be a man for our. For our family. I want you to be a good husband to me. I want you to be a father, my sons, all these different things. So it was. Her thought process was noble, for sure. You know, ultimately I got to a point where I didn't feel as though I needed that, and I was getting it from other people, like, that father figure from. Whether it be from coaches and different things like that. So I had to mature on that level. But just like you said earlier, I Quickly found out examples of what I wanted to be and what I didn't want to be. And I said, okay. And that was the tough part, I think for my mom is that she can, you know, consistently beat herself up about what was around this. Because now she has this, this 360 degree view. She could see everything. And, and I'm telling her no, the exact opposite. I said, it's all good, you know, I said, now I was messing with her a couple weeks ago. I said, now if I was writing this book from jail, maybe you should be feeling that way. Yeah, exactly like, hey, this is the memoirs of an inmate. I said, that's the difference. I said, that's not the case. I said, that's not the case. Me and Damon turned out as well as you could under that circumstance. Even better.
- [26:30]
Zibby Owens
That is Sarah's belief. Sarah's next book will be Memoirs of an inmate.
- [26:34]
Sarah Spain
She writes.
- [26:37]
Zibby Owens
Oh, I just think this is so amazing. I mean, how does it feel to have your whole life? I mean this is a deeper dive than like most incredibly high profile people get. Right. This is like more than like I feel like a presidential biography. This is so much detail. Like how do you feel having it out there?
- [26:57]
Howie Mandel
Well, we gonna see here in a second.
- [26:58]
Sarah Spain
Yeah, yeah.
- [27:00]
Howie Mandel
That's why I've let, I've, I've shared it with enough people whose opinions I value and just who would, you know, friends of mine who would just tell me, hey man, this is this or so that. And I'm talking about guys who don't have to suck up and say, oh, this is. No, they told me how it was. And every response I've got has been really, really positive. And like the epigenics and the emotional. I mean people are reading it and saying, I see myself in this. I see my. How I was raised in this. Yes, I'm giving some specific stories that may not fit other people, but the bottom line is those underlying themes are universal.
- [27:38]
Zibby Owens
Yeah.
- [27:39]
Howie Mandel
You know, now. Yeah, there's some specific things that it talks about in there. And you know, and ironically I thought some family members, even some friends would bring those pieces up specific because it seemed like I was dwell. I'm like over dwelling on those parts. And none of them even said anything about that. They seem to capture the whole, the essence of everything beyond. Oh, here's your girlfriend from college or whatever. Anybody said it. Nobody really even said anything about it.
- [28:06]
Sarah Spain
Yeah, Dylan was really worried about his ex girlfriends and I was like, I was like, with respect to your wife, you have a beautiful family. And several children together, and you've built something great. I think she's okay if we mentioned that at one point you dated someone else. We all did it before we met our spouse. No, I. You know, it was really important to me to respect all of his family members and to tell the story in a very honest way, but to not be salacious or seek out things that were unnecessary just to put in if they didn't help tell the story. And, you know, I pride myself on my empathy in life, and I think it really came into play in telling the story is how do I put myself in the position of each person here and find what they wanted, why they did what they did, even Frank, even someone who is a pretty villainous character and a guy who brought a lot of pain to a lot of people. I tried to understand, like, when he went into jail and came out, what happened in there. And when he came out and Adele tried to convince him, you're a talented dude, go find some work. Like, here's the things we can work on together, and build up his confidence. He couldn't get past some of the drugs and abuse stuff. And, you know, abuse is usually about control. It's not usually about anger. And so what had happened to him, and I think that's also the story is who you are, is what happened before you, to you, and because of you. And so how do all those things contribute to a life and what you want to pass on and don't? And I guarantee you there were things that happened to Frank and he's passed. I never got to speak to him. That made him who he was, and that doesn't excuse what he did. But I wanted to bring that perspective to everybody in the book because it really doesn't serve people to read a book where everybody is flat and then the main character, quote, unquote, is super fleshed out and the hero of everything. You need to understand that, you know, Dylan had to work through some tough stuff to come out on the other side, too.
- [29:54]
Zibby Owens
Well, it was chilling that you mentioned that they had to. They closed that prison soon after he left because it was, like, so bad.
- [30:01]
Sarah Spain
Yeah.
- [30:02]
Zibby Owens
And that was what was going on in there.
- [30:05]
Sarah Spain
Like, if it could be, I mean, of a bunch. How often are we closing prisons now or then? Right. For the conditions. So what did he go through in there? And why did he come out having lost the part of him that maybe Adele first loved?
- [30:16]
Zibby Owens
So, gosh. Oh, my goodness. So you've taken all of your life experience, and now you shape the careers of other young men and athletes and everything in a sport that is highly controversial in terms of safety for, especially for those kids. How do you feel about that? Especially with your own, like, physical manifestations of your football career? And what do you say to kids just starting out? And what about your own kids? Are you, are, do you, are they gonna all play football? Like. Oh, yeah, they all play. Footballers.
- [30:55]
Howie Mandel
They all play.
- [30:55]
Zibby Owens
They all play.
- [30:56]
Howie Mandel
Okay, they all play. So, I mean, you know, I don't, I'm not advocating or not football. I mean, you know, football is a sport and the guys enjoy it. And, and I know it was interesting. I was talking with, with my dad the other day and just talking about how football brought us together. I think about, I mean, just think about the, the levels that if I didn't play football, I'd have never met my dad in advance. I didn't play football, would. I'd been at usc. This. There's so many things that link that the football link is involved in for me, even with my own family, the, the, the life that I've built. I tell my kids, I said, football gave us the life that we have, you know, so I definitely don't have any animus towards football. Not, not, not that that's what you were implying, but as it relates to the guys who I just dealt with and met with earlier today, I mean that those are unique and long life lasting, Long lasting relationships that would not have been, you know, possible, you know, be it. Not through football. So enjoy it, love it. The relationships, the building of young men, you know. Yes. We have an hour and a half of football meetings, probably 25 minutes of which I'm all life, you know, So I know dad used to say this at one point in time. He said, you know, football and coaching is a ministry because you get the opportunity to impact these guys in a way that you normally wouldn't. Wouldn't have that opportunity to. So it's been, you know, especially for something I wasn't initially interested in. I wasn't interested in being a coach, you know, but I know I wanted to work with this type of environment. And yes, you get the full scan of people and not that everybody grew up like I grew up or different things like that, but football and the lessons of it are universal. So it's all good.
- [32:44]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, I love your pivot, by the way, to being a school principal in the middle there. For a while I was like, where is it? Okay, look at this. Sorry I cut you off.
- [32:52]
Sarah Spain
I was saying I was wanting to work with Kids and help kids that grew up like him. And it eventually led him back to football. But I kind of love that that wasn't the whole goal the whole time. That's very one note to just be a football guy. But the idea that he didn't even want to be a part of football and wanted to help in so many other meaningful ways, I think influenced also the way he coaches, which is how he's been able to move up the ranks because of his approach. I just have to say about football. You know, I've been at ESPN for almost 15 years, and I've covered a lot of football and talked about a lot of football. And it is a really fascinating understanding of circumstance because there are people who will not live a privileged life, will not experience some of the best parts of life without finding their way out of where they are through football. And so the dangers feel different to somebody who is looking to unlock a different life using the sport than they might to somebody who's speaking from a privileged position and understands the dangers of CTE and some of the other things associated with the sport. And so, for me personally, one of the best parts of my job has always been to learn how to see the world through other people's eyes and to empathize and to understand perspectives different than mine. And so while I fully understand how scary it can be to send a kid into football, and I fully understand the dangers that are inherent, you also do. Look at the incredible relationships and benefits and lessons and the resilience that Dylan figured out and found, and it's harder to be as cut and dried about it than you might think.
- [34:25]
Zibby Owens
My son plays football. He's a running back. He's a junior in.
- [34:28]
Sarah Spain
All right, There we go.
- [34:30]
Zibby Owens
Debbie.
- [34:30]
Sarah Spain
Does it run in the family? Do you got wheels, Debbie?
- [34:35]
Zibby Owens
That's what I'm talking about with these things that come out of nowhere somewhere. Not me. But yeah, I mean, this is always the source of debate, right? People to me are always like, you let your son play football, and meanwhile, not in this room, but in another room in our house. My husband is such a football fan that we have every team of every helmet on our bookshelves instead of books. So he gets that room, and I can keep my head.
- [35:01]
Sarah Spain
What a nice balance. A room full of books right next to a room full of football helmets. That sounds like my house.
- [35:05]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, I bet. Okay, so what is for both of you? I'd like you to close with, like, some advice. So maybe advice to aspiring athletes or people who feel like there's something really in their way right now and they have to push through it because Dalen, you've pushed through so much stuff and Sarah, like the perseverance to get the story written and out there and how many years it took and all of that, like, give us some parting wisdom here.
- [35:34]
Sarah Spain
Let's go, coach. Let's hear it. Locker room speech.
- [35:39]
Howie Mandel
Yeah. I don't know, but no, I mean, I. What I tell guys is don't let anybody tell you what you can't be, you know, because although it may not manifest itself and specifically what you're doing right there, the tools, the work ethic, the relationships, all of the, the skills that you're building in that, it still can manifest into success and other things. So I gotta have those conversations with guys because I'm sitting here with guys who are in college or in high school who think they're going to college, some guys in college who think they're going pro, guys who in pro think I'm gonna be a hall of Famer. So you have to have that balance, you know, and letting them know, although you're not being a dream killer by any stretch, if anything, I think I'm being an expansion of that dream so it's not so linear. It's like, hey, there's other things that I can do. So those are the things for me. I just say, hey, look, don't let anybody tell you, including me. And I make a point not to tell people, you're an author, what they can't do. So that's my thing.
- [36:39]
Sarah Spain
You're a book author now, who would have told you?
- [36:41]
Howie Mandel
Yeah, no way I would have been told that.
- [36:46]
Sarah Spain
Yeah. I mean, my anecdote from this is pretty telling for me. I'm a confident person. I don't think I shy away from trying things and putting myself out there, but I have at times put restrictions on myself that were artificial and were about me thinking I couldn't do something. And one of them was, I've always wanted to write a book. And yet when I brought this story to ESPN to do the E60, which is about a 25 minute TV feature, they said, oh, we definitely need a written story along with this and you're a writer. I was like, yep. And then I almost suggested one of my ESPN colleagues to do it because I hadn't done a long form feature before. I'd done a lot of writing, but not the super long form investigative do all the interviews and that. And I was like, well, I'm gonna do it. And then I won this incredible Dan Jenkins medal for sports writing, like, story of the year. And then I got a book offer, and now we've written a book, and so far it's getting rave reviews. And I'm like, why did I almost stop myself from. I'm a. And. And I'm a professional writer, and I almost stopped myself. You know what I mean? It wasn't even, like, a big leap. It was just something I hadn't done before. And I recognize in myself a lot of control issues. I want to be in control of everything. And I get really nervous the first time I do anything. Cause I don't know what it's gonna be. And then once I've done it once, I'm never nervous again. Like, the first time I did tv, I was nervous. I have not been nervous on TV once since I. You know. And so for me, it's all about, like, what does it look like to do that thing? And am I ready to. And then once I do it, I'm like, oh, I could do it all along. And so my advice for people, especially women, I think where we're conditioned not to take risks and conditioned to limit ourselves and not dream too big, is to dream really, really big, take way bigger swings, be willing to fail if that's what it takes to figure out where your edge is. Because I keep pushing, and I haven't found it yet. I'm still thriving at these things that I wondered if I could do. And so I think a lot of us do that to ourselves unnecessarily.
- [38:34]
Zibby Owens
I think your next collaboration might have to be Dyland writing your story.
- [38:38]
Sarah Spain
Oh, boy, oh, boy. I don't know if we're ready for that process.
- [38:41]
Zibby Owens
You gotta use those high SAT scores there and put it all to worst.
- [38:46]
Sarah Spain
Dylan sends me edits via text, so I don't think he's quite ready. The actual writing side of a book in the Scrivener document and all the.
- [38:56]
Howie Mandel
No way. Not at all.
- [38:58]
Zibby Owens
You never know. Well, the two of you make a very, very powerful team and such a compelling book. And I am so excited to see this in the world and where it goes and when it's gonna be a fe. By the way, is that happening?
- [39:10]
Sarah Spain
That we're working on it.
- [39:11]
Zibby Owens
Okay. Good, good, good.
- [39:13]
Sarah Spain
Yeah.
- [39:14]
Zibby Owens
Excellent. Can't wait to watch that when it comes out.
- [39:16]
Sarah Spain
Yeah. Thank you so much for having us and for reading it. We appreciate it.
- [39:19]
Zibby Owens
Oh, it's my pleasure. I got so much out of it. I really did.
- [39:22]
Howie Mandel
Thanks very much.
- [39:23]
Zibby Owens
Thank you. Bye.
- [39:25]
Sarah Spain
Awesome. Thank you so much.
- [39:26]
Zibby Owens
Thank you. Take care. Thanks a lot.
- [39:29]
Howie Mandel
I'll see you later.
- [39:29]
Sarah Spain
Bye.
- [39:30]
Zibby Owens
Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram Iby Owens and Spread the Word. Thanks so much. Oh and buy the books Ready for a healthy, stress free back to school season? Thrive Market's got your back with easy high protein meals, brain boosting lunchbox staples and low sugar snacks. Snack packs, everything to simplify your busy mornings. Their groceries are high quality and no junk. Over 1000 sketchy ingredients restricted and all trusted by parents so you can shop worry free. Plus their big back to school sale makes it the perfect time to stock up. Go to thrivemarket.com podcast for 30% off your first order and a free $60 gift.
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Sarah Spain
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Howie Mandel
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Sarah Spain
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