← Totally Booked with Zibby
Totally Booked with Zibby
Small Towns, Friendship, and Secrets in Kristy Woodson Harvey and B&N Book Club Pick Mikki Brammer’s New Novels
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Zibby Owens
a
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Christy Woodson Harvey
better help ad hold on one second, I just need to.
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Zibby Owens
What if you had a room where no one interrupts? No notifications, no expectations, just space to talk with BetterHelp Therapy happens in a space that's yours. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy. Today's episode is sponsored by Nutrafol. Do you know that feeling when you're brushing your hair and somehow it just looks a little thinner than usual, maybe a little less full? And you're like, what is going on here? Well, Nutrafol supports hair health from within, helping you grow stronger, visibly thicker hair so that those moments happen less often where you're worried about your hair. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists and by the way, personally by me. This is the brand that I trust. Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. Order online, no prescription needed, with automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. Plus, with a Nutrafol subscription, you can save up to 20% and get added perks to support your hair health journey. So let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See Visibly thicker, Stronger, Faster Growing Hair in three to six months with Nutrafol For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrafol.com and enter promo code Zibby Z I B-B Y that's nutrafol.com spelled N U T R A F O L.com promo code Zibby. Enjoy. Hi, this is Zibbee Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram Ibbeowens Today is a two in one episode with two fabulous authors. Both of these books will be perfect summer novels to devour. Christy Woodson Harvey and and Mickey Bramer Christy Woodson Harvey is the author of Summer State of Mind. She is the New York Times, USA Today and Publishers Weekly best selling author of 14 novels including Beach House Rules and the Peachtree Bluff series. A Happier Life is in development for film with mgm Amazon. The Song Summer of Songbirds is in development for television with Hulu and many of her other projects are in various stages of option or development for film and television. Her work has received numerous accolades including Good Morning America's Buzz Pick, Southern Living's Most Anticipated Reads, Katie Couric's Featured Books, and more. She's also the winner of the Lucy Bramlett Patterson Award for Excellence in Creative Writing and a finalist for the Southern Book Prize. Christie is the co creator and co host of the hit weekly web show and podcast Friends in Fiction with fellow New York Times bestselling authors Mary Kay Andrews, Kristin Harmel and Patti Callahan Henry. She is also the co founder of the award winning interior site Design Chic with her mom Beth Woodson. She lives on the North Carolina coast with her husband, son and dog Salt where she is always working on her next novel. Mickey Bramer is the author of Good Joy, Bad Joy. She is an Australian journalist based in New York City by way of France and Spain. She is the best selling author of the Collected Regrets of Clover and writes about design, architecture and art for publications such as Architectural Digest, Dwell and El Decor. First up we have Kristi Woodson Harvey. Welcome Christy, thanks for coming back on. Totally booked. You're like a VIP special guest. You're here all the time. I feel like, because you write so many books this time to talk about Summer State of Mind. Congratulations.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so thrilled to be back and it does feel like I've written a lot lately, right?
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Zibby Owens
I mean how many books have you written in the last eight years? Eight probably.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
I think actually yeah, because I've had two. I had two in 2021 and I have two this year. So yeah, it's been crazy. It's been crazy. But this is my 13th since 2015 which is. But I don't. I just.
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Zibby Owens
I love it.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
It's my favorite thing to do. So it just, like, gets me so excited to, like, get into a new story.
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Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh. Well, this story is really fun. Different from your other ones. Here we enter the world of nicu, nursing babies, coaching high school. I mean, we have a lot of different threads, a lot of different perspectives. Love, family, you know, what loyalty means, what parenting means, falling in love. I mean, you just got a lot in here, basically.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
Well, you know, this was an interesting one because I read an article, like, five years ago about a NICU nurse who adopted an abandoned baby, and I was like, oh, my gosh, that's so amazing. Like, I just. I love that. And I never. I had thought a lot about how that would be, you know, to be in a situation where you're caring for, you know, people's children in that way. But I hadn't really thought that much about. You know, I feel like I've all. We see the examples a lot of, like, the parents who are there, you know, every second, like, in the NICU with their kids. But I hadn't thought a whole lot about the ones that you didn't have anyone there for them. And so I mentioned it to a friend of mine who's a NICU nurse, and she was like, oh, I had a friend that did that. And so this was years ago, and I just kind of was like. Like, one day, like, maybe I'll write a book about that. And it was so great when I did decide to kind of come back to it, that I had people to talk to that had kind of been in this situation.
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Zibby Owens
Well, maybe you should back up and just give the elevator pitch. Synopsis of the elevator pitch.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
Yes. So Summer State of Mind is about a burnout NICU nurse named Daisy who escapes to a very small, sleepy town called Cape Carolina, which is a town that people might remember from my book, under the Southern Sky. And on her first day at her new job, job that's supposed to be really simple, there is an abandoned baby discovered by the hunky baseball coach at the high school who is kind of struggling with his own stuff because he was supposed to be this big star, and he had an injury that has kind of defined his life in a lot of ways. But this also puts her in the path of Aunt Tilly, who was kind of the whole town's eccentric aunt, who has lived in the east wing of her childhood home her entire life and really sends a ripple effect through this town. I mean, this is a really close knit community, and they're all kind of left wondering how something like this could happen in a town like theirs. But there are some secrets that come to light through the course of this. But you know, it's me, and I love a happy ending or a satisfying one anyway. So they all learn that with a little love and a lot of understanding and a community theater production of hello, Dolly, notably, that sometimes life brings us exactly where we belong.
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Zibby Owens
Amazing. That is awesome. I loved the coach point of view because I was trying to think, like, I'm like, have I read about a coach from, like, the personal perspective of a coach in fiction? And I was racking my brain and I couldn't think of any other times. I mean, I've seen shows like Friday Night Lights and all that where you get inside the coach's life, but I don't know. Can you think of times in fiction where we've heard about coaches as much?
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Christy Woodson Harvey
Well, I do have to tell you, this was so this was just ironic in the best way because. Or in the maybe the worst way.
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Zibby Owens
I don't know.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
But. So Mason, who's the coach in this story, was a character in my book under the Southern sky, but he was very secondary. Like, he was the brother of one of the main characters and we saw him a little bit. But when I started thinking about Daisy and her story, I don't know why, but he just was her love interest. Like, I couldn't. Like, when I started thinking about who it would be, it was just him. And I never expected to, like, revisit any characters or anything like that, but so I was like, okay, well, I'm going to do that. But, like, the only sport really that I don't know, like, a lot about is baseball. Like, my son plays basketball. We're like, really avid football fans. My son plays golf. I played tennis. Like, I know a lot about lacrosse. Like, there are all these sports that I know so much about, and I really don't know that much about baseball. And I was like, come on. Like, really?
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Zibby Owens
But I don't know.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
I can't really think of any. But I'm also just so fascinated by the, you know, the whole idea of, like, how your life becomes intertwined with these students. And I mean, you know, your kids are involved in all these things, and I think it shapes your life in so many really important ways. And I always say, like, I was a tennis player and I didn't. I mean, I didn't play anything else, but I feel like I learned everything I needed to know about life on the tennis courts and, like, being a part of a team and winning and losing and picking yourself back up and, you know, there's so many important things. But I was also reading a book at the time that I'm not gonna be able to remember the name of. I'm gonna have to cut nonfiction. But it was about our brains and how they develop as we age and how we kind of. We move from this moment of, like, doing new things all the time into this place of, like, becoming the expert at something. And the people that have the hardest time with that shift are people who thought they were going to be professional athletes, and they were not. And I was fascinated by that. So there's, like, part of that in his story as well.
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Zibby Owens
So interesting.
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Mickey Bramer
Yeah.
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Zibby Owens
That whole transition from I am an athlete to who am I when I'm not the center of the world or critical to a team is so interesting. And I know a lot of athletes have a hard time adjusting to, you know, regular life.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
Yeah. And I think that being a lot of professions, like if you're a model or you're an actor or you're, you know, something where, as you age, things really change for you and, like, how difficult that must be.
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Zibby Owens
Aren't we so great? I was going to say it's so great.
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Mickey Bramer
That
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Zibby Owens
just gets better and better as we get older. Well, I love Daisy. I love her how attached she gets to Maisie. I love her good heart and her optimism and yet skepticism at times. I love all the secrets that come out about her own life and how she sort of makes peace with all the decisions that get made, even though they aren't necessarily her first choice throughout the book. Yeah.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
Well, and Daisy was an interesting character, too. I didn't realize this until after I'd written the book, but I think most of the time, when I'm writing a story and I'm writing kind of like our main character, female, we're either watching her fall apart on page one, or we know that her life has fallen apart, and we're watching her kind of get it back together with Daisy. We're actually kind of, like, watching everything fall apart and come back together in real time, which I think is something I was trying to think back, and I don't think I've really done that before. So I think it gives her, like, kind of a different point of view. And, I mean, she's a woman in a lot of gray area. Like, I wrote about that a lot in my acknowledgments. That are not in the advance copy. But that's my favorite thing. I love when people have to make these choices and there's this gray area, because I think we're. It's like we grow up and we're told that there's, like, right and wrong and that everything in our life is going to be, like, so black and white, and we just have to make the right choice. And then I feel like you get to be an adult, and you're like, nothing's ever really black and white. I mean, there's always, like, a million shades of gray in any decision that you make. And Daisy definitely has a lot of shades of gray in the decisions that she's making. And, you know, she has a lot of personal baggage that have. That's influenced the way that, you know, she is, the way she feels about this baby, how attached she becomes to her. And, you know, I think if we had met Daisy a year before or a year after, she would have had a different story.
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Zibby Owens
So true. I mean, I guess you could say
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Christy Woodson Harvey
that all of us, right? It was all of us. Yeah.
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Zibby Owens
Christy, talk a little about Friends in Fiction, because every year, it just continues to grow and grow exponentially. And you are not only an amazing author of so many books, but you have a whole community and show and everything where you uplift other authors and everything like that and work in close collaboration with several authors. Talk a little bit about the growth of Friends in Fiction.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
It has just been one of the most unexpected things. I mean, I think all of us would say that we're just like, wow. I mean, it's really been organic. It's really been surprising. So Friends in Fiction, for people who haven't heard of it, is a web show and podcast that I have with Mary Kay Andrews and Patti Callahan, Henry and Kristin Harmel. And we started it during the Pandemic. We thought we were going to do it for seven weeks until our books came out. And April of 2026 marks six years, which is crazy. Which, I mean, as you know. How long have you been doing the podcast?
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Zibby Owens
Since 2018. So eight years. Yeah, eight years. This month, next month, doesn't it?
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Christy Woodson Harvey
I mean, it's just amazing to think about, like, how many years, you know, we've been really doing this. But so we thought, you know, seven weeks. And then this community kept growing, and the pandemic was still raging, and, you know, no one could go on book tour, and we still wanted to support independent bookstores and all of this and other authors, obviously. And so we just thought okay, well, we'll keep doing it. And, I mean, it's shifted and it's changed a little bit, but we have a Facebook group that it just grows. I think it's at, like, 340,000 members or something. Insane. I mean, I remember when we hit 1000, and we were like, yay, look at us.
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Zibby Owens
Like, we.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
We did this little thing, you know, and we were so excited. And I don't. There's just something about. I think there's. It actually gives me a lot of hope for the future because it really shows me that there's still people who are super passionate about books and reading, as you well know, and you are a living example of. But I think it. I think it really does show that, like, we can. We can read all the statistics and we can hear all the horrible things about books and reading, but there are still readers out there who are so passionate and who are, you know, want to support authors and want to support bookstores and want to, you know, keep learning and growing and.
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Zibby Owens
Are you still scared after all these books? Yeah.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
Oh, yeah. I think you're always, like. Because every book's a little different. And I think ideally, I'm always trying to, like, stretch myself a little bit in some ways. And I think stretching yourself means that you don't 100% know that every reader is going to be like, this is my favorite book you've ever written. You know, I mean, and hopefully, you know, a lot of people feel that way, but then some people are always going to be like, well, I liked this one better, whatever.
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Zibby Owens
So.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
Yeah, and I think it's a. I was. I was actually. I was doing an event yesterday in Tennessee, and someone asked me about this, and I was saying. I think that. I think the thing about being a creative person who has a career as a creative person is that you are, like, bleeding yourself into this work, and you love it so much and you're so attached to it, and you always have to know in the back of your mind that there's going to be rejection and criticism and people aren't going to like it. And in some ways, it's like kind of putting your kid out into the world and then, you know, someone being mean to them. And so I think you're always kind of dealing with that, like, push, pull of like, okay, well, this is really personal to me, and I just have to know that there are going to be some hard parts about it, too. But largely, it's. It's overwhelmingly wonderful and positive. But you know how it is like we can have 10,000amazing reviews and one bad one. And which one do we remember?
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Zibby Owens
Congratulations on another installment of your of your career.
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Christy Woodson Harvey
Well, thank you. Well, thank you for all that you have done for me, for all that you do for authors to just keep this world going and exciting and bright and fresh and keeping readers engaged. I really, really appreciate all your support for all these years. And it means a lot coming from you. Because no one reads more books than zipio.
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Zibby Owens
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Mickey Bramer
Every Style, Every Home.
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Zibby Owens
Next, here's Mickey Bramer. Welcome, Mickey, thank you so much for coming on. Totally Booked to talk about Good Joy, Bad Joy. Congratulations.
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Mickey Bramer
Thank you so much.
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Zibby Owens
And I saw you're the Barnes and Noble Book Club pick.
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Mickey Bramer
Yes, yes. Very exciting.
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Zibby Owens
Wow. That's awesome. Congratulations on that.
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Mickey Bramer
Thank you.
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Zibby Owens
Why don't you tell listeners a little bit about what the book is about?
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Mickey Bramer
Yeah. So it's Good Joy, Bad Joy is about an 89 year old woman named Joy. And she's been a lifelong rule follower, people pleaser, and always put everybody else before herself because that's what she was taught to do like a lot of women of her generation. And she's lived a really long life, but she's gotten to the stage where she's outlived almost everybody. And when she gets the news that her childhood best friend, who is her last living friend, has a terminal diagnosis, it really makes her take a look at her life and think, you know, what is a life well lived and have I lived it fully? Her friend Hazel has lived it fully. But Joy can't say the same. And so that's when she decides to test the waters of breaking the rules and not living by all of these parameters that the world has set for her. And it ends up being quite a very late coming of age. She's a very, very, very late bloomer.
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Zibby Owens
You have a line early on that is essentially like, why am I the only one left? What is the meaning of this? What am I supposed to do with this? And it's such an interesting concept because what do you do with that? You have a scene where she's sitting on her porch and just watching the generations go by and she's still there. She's lost so many people that she loves. What do you do with the fact that life can pass so many people by? And yet she talks about it being on the mountainside often that she's the one still climbing and is she going to be there all by herself?
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Mickey Bramer
Right. It really struck me as interesting that, you know, especially in our current society, we're so obsessed with extending our lives, doing everything we can to live as long as possible. But I don't think any of us stop to think like, what if we do live as long as possible, but that means we end. We have to watch everybody else be whittled away around us and end up living to 90 or 100. But all of our friends have gone and probably a lot of our family. And I think it's such an interesting Conundrum that perhaps we don't consider. And I think as you get older, you start to lose friends. And what is it like when you're losing one a week, essentially? Like, I can't imagine. But I think that is what it's like for a lot of people, especially who have very wide social circles.
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Zibby Owens
I know the fact that it becomes. That it's normalized, that the grief becomes normalized. And it's just, you know, even when Hazel's like, okay, well, finally got me. You know, like, they're all just, like, trying to outrun the inevitable. And they seem, in a way, kind of at peace with the whole thing.
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Mickey Bramer
Yeah. Yeah, I guess. What else can you do? Yeah, I think. But I also love the idea that it's never too late to, you know, if you're not satisfied with your life, it's never too late to do something about that and make those changes or try living differently.
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Zibby Owens
Totally. I believe that wholeheartedly. You have another line later on, because a lot of this book is about friendship. And there's one moment where I think Hazel says to Joy, you know, this has been. This is the relationship of my lifetime. Like, this is. This is it for me. This is the. You're the love of my life. And says, the love of my life can't be a close girlfriend. You also then have a line that says, how many times can one person rescue you without you repaying the kindness? And I feel like that is endemic to friendship, too. Like, what are we. How do we not level the playing field but make it even? Is there even a way? Is that even a goal? And what even is the role of these close female friendships?
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Mickey Bramer
Absolutely. And I think I'm lucky to have a lot of really close friendships. And I think as we grow older and people go through divorces and things like that, the friendships are the things that stay consistent. Obviously, some of them do recede. And, you know, friendships change with the seasons. But those really core ones. I think it is very easy to kind of try to keep a balance sheet. Like, you've done so much for me. What have I done for you? But I don't think, like, yes, sometimes there is an unhealthy balance, but I think also that's what friendship is. You know, as long as you're fulfilled doing that thing for that person. And I was really interested. Like, Joy and Hazel are very opposite people. And that's one thing I observed with a lot of my close friends. You know, we have shared values and, you know, maybe shared senses of humor. But most of the time, we're very different people. And I think similar to romantic relationships, it's easy to be like, well, I want someone like me. But I think having someone who is different from you thinks differently to you and thus challenges you and helps you grow. That's what makes for the richest, deepest friendships. And obviously, there's conflict and misunderstandings that come with that. But like any relationship, that also leads to beautiful growth as well. And when you've had it like they have had for 80 years, you know, that's a lot of ups and downs. But that's why the bond so strong. And that it is. They are kind of each other's loves of their lives.
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Zibby Owens
There's also just so much in here about caretaking and giving. And what do you give the person who can't be consoled in a way? So Rowan is the man who moves down the block. I love his character, by the way.
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Mickey Bramer
Me too.
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Zibby Owens
Love. And they talk a little bit. Can I read this little scene about between Rowan and Joy says, I'm afraid that's what the women of our generation were taught. She says, we're told to keep our chins up and smile no matter what we're feeling on the inside. And then Rowan says, you know, at first with my mom, I was determined to help her in the way I thought was best. But I finally realized that it wasn't for me to decide. It was up to her how she wanted to navigate her final months, and I needed to respect that. Even if I thought she should do it differently. The only thing I could do was walk beside her through all of it. Hazel might be working through it in her own way. And Joy says she just wants her to know how much she cares and all of that. And then she doesn't want to be too sentimental. And Rowan says, the most helpful thing someone ever said to me about having a dying loved one is not to treat them like someone you're waiting to lose. Treat them like the person they've always been to you. Otherwise, it's just a tragic waste of the time that they have left. Talk a little bit about that.
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Mickey Bramer
Yeah. So I've actually. I've lost two friends young, so I've had that experience. And it is, you know, especially when you're someone who likes to help people, your instinct is to try to fix things and to, you know, make them look on the bright side. But, like, when you have a terminal illness, it's not really. There's not often a bright side to look on. And I think that Toxic positivity can make them feel more isolated. And I think with grief in general, anticipatory grief, or when you have lost someone or just being around someone who is ill, it makes us face our own mortality. And even when they're your close friends, some people, because they don't know what to do, they may distance themselves. And then again, that makes the people more isolated. So what I really learned through trial and error is, you know, just being there and treating them like the friend they've always been. Because people can see the pity in your eyes. They can see when you're not saying things that you would normally say or you're holding back or you're watching what you say. And if they're used to you making really dark jokes or things like that, they appreciate that. And it also changes from day to day. You know, there's that saying, I think in caretaking, you know, you ask the person, do you want to be helped hugged or heard today? And that can change from day to day and. But sometimes they do just want to be comforted. Sometimes they want you to listen and sometimes they do want a cheerleader to say, you know, this is going to be great, but you have to let them take the lead and not do what you think is best for them and really just understand that it's a day to day thing, not this one person only needs this thing from now until the end.
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Zibby Owens
And literally writing these three words, helped, hugged or heard. And I am using, I'm, I'm going to use these for my kids because.
- [29:52]
Mickey Bramer
Yeah, yeah, it's exactly. I think it's good for any situation. Someone doesn't have to be dying, just like if they're going through it, you know, what do you need? Because it is kind of annoying when you have. You've had a bad day and someone tries to fix it or give you advice and you're like, no, I just want to talk about how much this sucks. And I think that's true in any case.
- [30:11]
Zibby Owens
Wow. There's a lot also about the healing power of art in many forms. Whether it's the pottery that, you know, there's a vase that becomes incredibly important, or the music and the piano lessons that Joy gives, which are beautiful. And I just love what happens at the end. By the way, that was so nice. Books all the time in the library and Joy's obsession with flesh inducing romance novels and just how art and culture really improve her life and those of the people around her and how sometimes giving the gift of that is sometimes the biggest gift you can give. Is that how you feel?
- [30:50]
Mickey Bramer
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I can't imagine my life without all of those things, you know, art and culture. And that's what I love about living in New York City is that there's always something along those lines to do. And for me, as a creative person, I play music, you know, I do art, and they all tie into one another. So when I'm writing, if I'm stuck, then I'll go and play the piano or play the guitar or maybe do some sketching. And that helps me process things, I think. And for kids especially, you know, she teaches kind of low income kids. She gives them the piano lessons for free. And I think that is something that is often a privilege is access to culture, you know, and people who don't grow up with a lot of money often don't have access to that and the stimulation and the. The richness that it can bring to your life. So I really love to incorporate all of that and just, you know, I love going to art galleries. I think art galleries are a great place to go on dates, but they're great to meet up with a friend. You know, that's another great thing about New York City. Instead of meeting for coffee, you can go to moma, stroll through a gallery, and be like, well, okay, see you later. But how lucky we are to kind of be surrounded by this. And formerly a journalist, and I wrote about design and architecture and art, so it's especially a passion of mine. And I love the way Jo. The building of Dear Beacon as much as the art. That's similar for me. I love going to museums as much to see the space as the art.
- [32:14]
Zibby Owens
So interesting. Oh, my gosh. And meanwhile, Joy starts these, like, tiny little deviant behaviors, starting quite small in a. Why not in a. I'm upset about my friend. I don't know what to do about this news. Like, why does it all matter? What if I could try this? Like, how am I gonna leave my imprint? And could it even be a negative one?
- [32:39]
Christy Woodson Harvey
Did you.
- [32:40]
Zibby Owens
As I was reading it, I was like, I wonder if Mickey was staring at the fire alarm in a library one day and just wondering, like, what if I just pulled this? Or maybe. Or maybe you did it. Which one is it?
- [32:53]
Mickey Bramer
I have never done it, but I'm well known among my friends, at least in Australia. I've kind of hidden that reputation here. But is that, like, I love. Because I'm a very tactile person and I'm really tempted to touch art, which, as you know, Is like the big. No, no, you're not supposed to do that. Or just, you know, when I see a lever, I really want to pull it or press a button. You know, the thing on the subway. I've never done those things, but it is really tempting. And I think having these. I think a lot of people, like when you're in the grocery store and you see a really wonderfully piled up display, you're like, what if I pull down that thing at the bottom? I think. I guess you could call those intrusive thoughts, but it's more like mischievous, I think. But I think it's also interesting how many of us, like, I've heard people who read it so far, like, oh, my God, I always think about pulling the fire alarm, that people have these thoughts, but we're so conditioned, and obviously that would cause a lot of havoc. So you don't want to do it.
- [33:47]
Zibby Owens
Well, you're going to be a prime suspect now after this book.
- [33:50]
Mickey Bramer
Exactly. Now, whenever there's a. Yeah, you will
- [33:53]
Zibby Owens
not be able to get away with anything if you even don't want to admit that you did before. Now the jig is up.
- [34:00]
Mickey Bramer
And I also thought it was interesting with her. You know, she's a little white old lady, and so she can get away with these things and that double standard. And I've kind of noticed that, you know, people think. Because I generally do follow the rules, and so people think I'm a staunch rule follower, which I'm actually not. But I'm like, oh, wow, I could get away with a lot because everybody thinks that I'm always doing the right thing. And my philosophy is that. That I'll bend the rules when it doesn't affect someone specifically. You know, so it's not nothing terrible. I haven't done anything illegal. But, you know, it is interesting how. How much you can get away with by the way you look or your ethnicity and stuff like that. And I think that's very interesting. Whereas Rowan, you know, his circumstances have put him in a box by society that he finds it really hard to get out of. And it's a box that makes him mistrusted no one. You know, he's really. He's tried to walk an honorable path, but society makes it hard for him. And I think that double standard is really interesting.
- [35:01]
Zibby Owens
That is really interesting. Yeah. I feel that poor Rowan, you know, with his father having been in prison and just having his life, you know, he was like, is it just prescripted for me, like, is this. Did I have another path because everybody assumed I would go down this path. And so they were looking for it. Was it, Is it destiny or not? And it's an interesting way to think. Think about crime in general.
- [35:26]
Mickey Bramer
Exactly. And also just in general with Joy, I'm really interested on how our parents shape us. And, you know, you get to a certain age and you realize how young your parents were when they were giving you all this wisdom. And knowing how little you kind of know at that age, you're like, wow, they were really just winging it. And then their parents were probably just winging it. So a lot of the time this flawed wisdom has been passed down by generations as the right thing to do or as gospel, but that's what shaping us. And unfortunately for Joy's generation, they didn't have the access to the therapy and kind of the self awareness that we have now where you can reflect on that and decide you're going to change the cycle or whatever. And so it was this kind of this generational thing that never got changed. And I think especially, like, we know so much more about parenting and teaching, but than we did back then. But that's what you're given and that's what shapes your life, especially psychologically. I think your brain is still forming to your teens. And if that's what you're given. I've read somewhere that the voice that you hear in your head is often like a caretaker from that time. So, like the criticism or. Because that's when your brain was forming. And so we're taking that with us and not necessarily questioning it. And I think you can get to almost 90 like she does, and never question it because that's what. That's what you did. You just like, well, they're my parents, so they must be right.
- [36:51]
Zibby Owens
Wow. Well, I found it really interesting how you portrayed the evolution of her relationship with Elizabeth, her daughter and also her grandson, and how as Joy is learning more about herself, she's also learning about her parenting and maybe mistakes that she made. And how did she make that right? And how are we supposed to relate to the people closest to us? And can we right the wrongs of the past? And is it even as hard to do as maybe we think?
- [37:18]
Mickey Bramer
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's very easy to be like, well, I'm this age and so it's too late. And I just don't think that's true at all. I don't think if there's ever such thing as too late, I mean, there are going to be things you can't change. But you can make amends. You can. You know, her generation, they were so buttoned up that they didn't talk about emotions. And that can be very damaging for the child who wants to talk about emotions. And. And just because that's what she was taught and it's very difficult for her, doesn't mean she never can do that. And I think it's really brave. Like, I watched my own mum. She's 76 and she's on a path of, you know, self awareness and growth at 76. And I really love that she's forever trying to improve herself, whereas a lot of people would just be like, well, I'm 76, this is how I am. I don't need to, I don't need to change. And so I think it is. Being willing to look at yourself differently is a great gift you can give yourself.
- [38:15]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, 100%. Well, joy is such an interesting character. And you also bring up this idea of the money running out, essentially. And what does it mean, again, to your point of what does it mean to live so long? Can we outlast what we have set aside? You know, she had, when her husband passed away, like a nest egg of sorts, but here she is, still alive and you see her very carefully counting her money and can I afford this lemon muffin or cake or whatever it was like today, or do I have to wait till next week? And can I pick this from my garden so I don't have to buy this? And the constant attention to budgeting, which makes her constantly have to think about how long she's living when you're dividing it by the number of years. And that. Which I feel like is not really talked about that much in fiction.
- [39:10]
Mickey Bramer
No. And I think for women of that generation in particular, but still sometimes now, when you have that kind of arrangement, that the husband is the breadwinner or the other spouse is the breadwinner, and you never had to educate yourself on matters of finance, of all the logistics of insurance and things like that. And then all of a sudden, so you don't have that financial literacy. And then you. So she was never taught how to save or how to budget because her husband managed that, you know, and I do hear of women who, like, get divorced or they're. They're widowed and they don't know how to pay a bill, they don't know where any of the documents are because they've never had to. And I think in a way they felt like they were being taken care of, but there's a risk of that because you didn't educate yourself. And now you've. If you're really stuck and she's kind of in this situation. And then that's juxtaposed with Hazel, who was basically a single, independent woman her entire life and had to learn how to do those things. She had to get a bank account when women couldn't get bank accounts, and she started her own business. And so it is possible. But I think Joy realizing, wow, you know, Hazel's always had to do these things, and I don't even know how to change a light bulb kind of thing.
- [40:26]
Zibby Owens
So I feel like there are just so many messages once we put down this book. Right. Appreciate your close girlfriends. Don't be afraid to make things right. Don't assume stuff about people. Help hug her. How do we respond? And how do we take advantage of the time we have left? If it's a day or a million days or whatever, how do we make the most of our lives? So I feel like, yes, this is a novel that was. Aside from the interesting plot and everything that happens, the themes are just so deep and the messages are so deep and so resonant that it makes these characters and everything that happens to them feel just incredibly important and.
- [41:11]
Mickey Bramer
Oh, thank you so much.
- [41:12]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, no, it feels more than just a plot that you put. Like, it's not a book you just put down and don't think about it. It's a book that. That I feel leaves you with messages that can ultimately change your life.
- [41:25]
Mickey Bramer
Oh, thank you so much, and I really appreciate you. Thank you so much for all you do to support authors and celebrate books and really get them out into the world. We're so lucky to have advocates like you in the book world, and we really appreciate you.
- [41:37]
Zibby Owens
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, Follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
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Mickey Bramer
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