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- [00:00]
Wayfair Announcer
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- [00:02]
Ziva Bukai
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Race F1 Podcast Narrator
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Ziva Bukai
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Wayfair Announcer
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Zibby Owens
Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibeowens Ziva Bukai is the author of the World Between. Ziva is the author also of the novel the Anatomy of Exile. Her stories have appeared in Carve Magazine, The Masters review, McSweeney's quarterly concern, and elsewhere. Her honors include a fellowship at the New York center for Fiction and residencies at Hedgebrook Writers Colony and Birdcliffe Air Program in Woodstock, New York. She is the recipient of the Masters Review Fall Fiction Prize, the Kurt Johnson Prose Award, and the Lilith Fiction Award. Her work has been anthologized in Smashing the Tablets, Radical Retellings of the Hebrew Bible, Frankly Feminist short stories by Jewish women from Lilith Magazine and out of Many multiplicity and divisions in America today. She holds an MFA from Brooklyn College and is the Assistant Director of Academic Support at SUNY Empire State University. She lives in Brooklyn with her family. Welcome, Ziva. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to discuss the World Between. Congratulations.
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Ziva Bukai
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
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Zibby Owens
Of course. Oh, my gosh.
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Ziva Bukai
Your book.
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Zibby Owens
Small, but so powerful. I mean, just took my breath away. Kind of powerful. Really, really good. Beautifully written. Just the device of how you structured it was so clever, and, I don't know, it just. It was great.
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Ziva Bukai
Thank you so much.
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Zibby Owens
I mean, what could be better than that? Why don't you tell listeners what it's about?
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Ziva Bukai
So the novel is about a former Yiddish actress who, after the breakup of her marriage, returns to the apartment in Tel Aviv that they shared when they first got married.
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Zibby Owens
And.
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Ziva Bukai
And soon after she gets there, she finds herself in the Sisters of the Saint Joseph Apparition Hospice in Jaffa run by a group of nuns. It's unclear how she got there. And so the entire story is really about her piecing together the events that led her to this moment.
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Zibby Owens
Amazing.
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Ziva Bukai
And that's basically what runs from New York City to Tel Aviv to. To a Siberian gulag. And it's kind of a puzzle because she is trying to piece her life together. And it's also an epistolary novel in the sense that it's all directed to her husband, Max.
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Zibby Owens
Yes. Which was also so interesting. And we never actually really meet Max. We just hear her sharing with him. And slowly, through dribs and drabs, we get to sort of soak up little morsels that you leave about, like, what actually happened, what tore them apart or put them together or whatever. And then you have this beautiful relationship. So it's not a love triangle necessarily, but you do have another gentleman whose story is just. I mean, Rothman's story is so powerful. There's a scene in this book that I feel like I'll never see forget when he, you know, something bad happens to him and she takes care of him. And. Oh, my gosh. Like, Ziva, where did this come from?
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Ziva Bukai
You know, honestly, so. Well, first of all, I think a lot of my work comes from family history. My mother was born in Siberia during the Second World War, and so she. Her first. The first five years of her life were spent in a children's home. And for me, trying to process that about my mother was difficult. And so the way that I kind of entered that was through fiction, through creating this character who is a Yiddish actress. I studied acting as a young person. That was like. My first degree was a BFA in acting and theater. And I kind of wanted to use that experience of my life in this book. Now, the rest of it is all made up. I mean, it's all fiction. Rothman is a fictional character. I love him. I don't know where he popped up from, but he's there. Max, on the other hand, is a Yiddish playwright. And his demeanor, or I should say his affect and his appearance is actually based on a teacher of mine that I had when I was studying theater in Israel. And this was Binyamin Semach, who was an exceptional actor and choreographer here in the United States. His brother, meanwhile, was Nathan Semach, who was one of the founders of the Habima Theater, the National Theater of Israel. And so there were all of these connections. And I remember going to Habima one night to see a play, and Binyamin was there with his wife. And he was rather short, and his wife was stunning and statuesque. She was quite tall. And there he was with this black fedora and a cape. And that scene, that image stayed with me. And that's one of the images that we see in this book. So I really do kind of extrapolate both from memory and imagination, but the story of her kind of spiraling, being in a sanitarium, literally kind of having a nervous breakdown. This is a woman who is spiraling down, not kind of healing up. That really is imagination.
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Zibby Owens
I really kept, like, hoping she would get out. Like, she wanted to get out and go home. And I kept, like, rooting for her, even though it didn't make any sense. And obviously she should have stayed, but still I was like, yeah, just, like, open, you know, that she opens the door like, go, go, go, go. See what happens.
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Ziva Bukai
Yeah, absolutely. She is really a character who I find interesting. Right. I mean, I have to be interested in her in order to be able. Yeah, I mean, she's troubled. She's had a very troubled past, and she's had issues in terms of her marriage. And also a big part of this book is childhood war trauma and the way that it affects all of the characters in this book.
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Zibby Owens
Can I read a little part?
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Ziva Bukai
Sure. Please, Please. I just wanted to get at. I didn't necessarily want to write about the Holocaust, and I didn't feel like I could write about the camps or things like that, but because of my mother's experience, and my grandmother's experience. I felt that I did want to explore the whole other issue that was going on during the Second World War for Jews, and that was their exile into Siberia by the Russian. By the Soviets, I should say. That is an aspect of the Holocaust that we don't read about a lot. And so I really did want to get at that, and I would love for you to read a piece.
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Zibby Owens
Oh, okay. Now, obviously, I'd much rather hear from you. That's why we're here. But, yeah. And I feel you didn't start sharing scenes from that period of time until sort of deeply within the book. Those were not like the leading scenes. You get deeper and deeper as we go deeper and deeper into her fractured memory and all of that. So she's talking to Max here, and then I'll read just like these two short pages. You left the milk out on the counter last summer after the play closed, knowing I couldn't bear to see food go to waste. It soured, and I begged you not to pour it down the drain, but you did. I could have used it in a cake or biscuit mix, like buttermilk, I said. I could have scalded it. No, it's spoiled, you said. The shadow of a smile hovered over your lips. I understood then that we'd crossed a boundary. I told you that in the camp I carried a tin bowl with me everywhere. Anyone who lost their bowl starved. We wore it round our necks. Rothman used a nail and the heel of his boot to puncture a hole near the rim and. And ran a length of wire through it that turned my neck green. I bathed with it, slept with it. I never let it go, not even after the war. When Rothman and I went back to Krasnovich in search of our relatives and neighbors, we found strangers in our houses, strangers who used our furniture and hung our curtains on the windows. They ate the stores of food we left in the cellar off of our china plates. They dug up the candlesticks, the jewelry, the coins, and the silver kiddush cup we'd buried in the garden before we left. No one we knew was alive when we knocked on our front doors, hoping for a familiar face when we peered through the windows into our parlors. They chased us off like we were dogs come begging for a meal and warned that if we came back, they'd murder us. We'd heard stories in other towns of Jews who had returned to their homes after the war, only to be beaten dead by people who had once been their neighbors. Rothman said it was because they didn't want to give back what they'd stolen from us. But I think it was because we dared to survive. Live Jews are a nuisance.
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Ziva Bukai
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Zibby Owens
Well, it's really powerful stuff.
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Ziva Bukai
Thank you so much. Thank you for reading that portion. Yeah, that was a difficult scene to write. I mean, I do remember my grandmother telling us that they went back to their house, there was someone else living there and they had no recourse. I mean, there was nothing that they could do, and they just left. You know, that was it. They went. They went on with their lives.
- [12:24]
Zibby Owens
It's so hard to imagine. I mean, not hard to imagine because obviously you've helped us feel like we've sort of lived it with the book and obviously I've read a bazillion stories about it. But just thinking that, like, any of us could just leave and then come back and someone could be in our homes, which are like how we feel safe in the world after a period where. Which of horrificness. And then to come back to home base and have that also be gone with so many relatives gone. It's just how people moved past that is so extraordinary. And I think, you know, your book speaks to the fascination of that. How do people move on from that? Do they move on and are they okay underneath it all or not?
- [13:11]
Ziva Bukai
Well, I think that's exactly what the book is about. I mean, I think you really, you know, touch the heart of it. And that is physically people might move on, but I don't know that they ever really move on from the mental anguish, you know, and the psychological ramifications of that kind of forced exile. Whether I think many people went on to live really good lives afterwards. They managed to put it behind them. But I have heard stories of people who, in their old age, in their very old age, suddenly relive all of those moments. They were able to push it out for, you know, 40 years. And then suddenly, there it is. It's in their nightmares again. There are children again. I mean, my grandmother, when she was quite elderly and placed in a home, she started speaking Polish again. That was not the language that I ever heard her speaking. But I think the mind has a way of kind of clutching on to those memories. And if anything, this book is really a collection of memories of this person's life. I think the book shows one way that people cope or don't cope, what Max does in writing that play, Div Loydame, the blue lady, forcing the narrator, who remains unnamed throughout, deliberately. Right? Forcing her to play the main character who does terrible, terrible things. So I think people process and act out and behave in ways that are triggered by the past.
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Zibby Owens
Wow. And then when she. Of course, when life comes, it doesn't always come with roses and sunshine, even after you escape that fate. And, you know, really traumatic, terrible things happen as well in her life. And it's like the ground is less steady when those all hit, right? Like, you're wobbly as it is. And then a loss like that, which could knock anybody over, then it's like, what does that do? It's like another level of pain.
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Ziva Bukai
I think so. And I think that one of the reasons that the idea that she's an actor and can put on different characters, right, kind of walk in the skin of somebody else, is a way for her to process and cope. It's like the only thing she can do when she's on stage. She is loved and adored. And, of course, the terrible thing is, is that the Yiddish theater, by the time they get to New York, it's already fading. I mean, it's dying out. That big Jewish Rialto, you know, there had been, like, something like 120 Yiddish theaters in the Lower east side. I mean, it's quite amazing when you think about it. And then by the time they get there, like in the late 50s, it's already dying out. It's a beast that's on its last gasp, you know, and so they're dealing with that, too. So so much of this book really is about loss. But I don't think that it's written in a way that feels like this terrible downer. You know, there's. She's got a sense of humor in the way that she views herself. Her aging body, you know, she's 66 years old here. You know, all of that, the fact that she's in this sanitarium with all of these nuns, you know, that's like another element here. I mean, she's really a fish out of water, literally.
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Zibby Owens
Yes. Tell me a little more about your life and how you became a writer. So, like, where did you grow up? Like, what is your story, basically?
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Ziva Bukai
So my story is I was born in Israel. I came here with my parents when I was about almost four years old, and then grew up really here as an immigrant. You know, I didn't speak English until I was five and a half. Until I went to school. I really felt like I was straddling two cultures and two worlds, you know, and this idea of the nishtahein, nishtahel, which means neither here nor there in Yiddish, is a big aspect of this book. And that feeling is someone, that something that I know very well. I went back to Israel when I was 18 and I did a preparatory year program, which is called a mechina program, at Tel Aviv University. And after that year, I was accepted into the theater part department at Tel Aviv. I was there for a year and then went on to the seminar Le Kibbutzein, which was kind of a drama conservatory in Tel Aviv. And I did that for another year. Then my mother was quite ill, and so I came back to the US and finished my degree here, and then married, had a child, and realized that acting was not, for me anyway, was not going to be possible. I didn't want to leave my daughter. There's, you know, as an actor, you have to travel, rehearsals go on for long periods of time, and it was just not the right step for me. So I moved into writing in a much more serious way. Now I had written from the time that I was 12 or 13. I'd been writing stories and poetry, and I didn't quite take myself seriously. And I decided that I was going to apply for an MFA program, which I did at Brooklyn College. And my journey in terms of a writer has been quite slow. You know, it's been one, you know, kind of like laying bricks, one brick at a time. I began, you know, publishing short stories very slowly. And my first novel, the Anatomy of Exile, was actually published last year by Delphine Books, and it's now been shortlisted for the National Jewish Book Award.
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Zibby Owens
I saw that. Congratulations. Thank you.
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Ziva Bukai
I am shocked because this whole trajectory has been 30 years in the making. Right. I mean, it's just really, really shocking to me, and it's been a slow road, you know, a slow, wonderful, very difficult road. You know, I grappled with which, with what I think many authors grapple with was a lot of self doubt thinking, oh, my God, this is never going to happen for me. Right. And here's my second book. So I would tell anybody who's a writer out there, just keep doing it. Just stick to it. You have to. You have to always push yourself forward.
- [19:46]
Zibby Owens
Amazing. Well, Ziva, thank you so much. Again. This sort of jewel of a novel packs such a powerful punch, even though it is so small and not even that long. I mean, 178 pages, but it's just so little, right? It's just so cute and little. But anyway, yeah, I really got a lot out of it. And you're very gifted. I really liked it.
- [20:09]
Ziva Bukai
Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Zibby. This has been such a pleasure for me too.
- [20:15]
Zibby Owens
Me too.
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Wayfair Announcer
Thanks so much.
- [20:15]
Zibby Owens
All right, thank you.
- [20:16]
Ziva Bukai
Take care. Take care.
- [20:17]
Zibby Owens
Okay, bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
- [20:42]
Wayfair Announcer
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Ziva Bukai
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Ziva Bukai
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Zibby Owens
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Ziva Bukai
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