Josh Johnson - I'm Laughing

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Toure Show Episode Featuring Josh Johnson – "I'm Laughing"

Release Date: February 16, 2025
Host: Toure
Guest: Josh Johnson

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Toure Show, host Toure sits down with Josh Johnson, a renowned intellectual comedian known for his frequent appearances on The Daily Show. Together, they delve into a range of topics spanning the recent election, the intersection of politics and comedy, societal perceptions of villainy, and the intricacies of storytelling in media. This comprehensive summary captures the essence of their conversation, highlighting key discussions, insightful analyses, and memorable quotes from both participants.

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1. Election Analysis and Democratic Messaging

Josh Johnson kicks off the discussion by reflecting on the recent election outcomes, specifically addressing the challenges faced by Democratic candidates in appealing to a polarized electorate.

• Elusive Middle Ground: Josh emphasizes the difficulty in finding a unifying policy stance that resonates across the political spectrum.

  “I think there is a mysterious, elusive middle ground that's gonna like, bring the whole country together on policy that I don't think is real.” [03:06]

• Consolidating Support: He criticizes the strategy of Democratic candidates adopting "Diet Republican" positions, arguing that it alienates both Republican voters and the Democratic base.

  “Being a Diet Republican for any candidate who is running as a Democrat will not appeal to that many Republicans.” [03:06]

• Future Implications: Josh believes that without authentic and consolidated messaging, future Democratic candidates may continue to struggle in elections.

  “Trying to create an imaginary path while ignoring the biases of the people is ill advised.” [04:37]

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2. Trump vs. Potential Democratic Candidates

The conversation transitions to a comparative analysis of former President Trump and hypothetical Democratic candidates.

• Likelihood of Victory: Josh opines that even with different messaging or policies, a Democrat running against Trump in 2024 would likely face defeat.

  “If you put a different candidate with the same messaging on up against Trump in 2024, personally, I think they would have lost.” [04:37]

• Biden's Challenges: He also critiques current Democratic leadership, noting that Joe Biden's unpopularity and perception as an incumbent contributed to electoral losses.

  “People were overlooking how deeply unpopular Joe Biden was, and they were also not looking at the way that she was seen as an incumbent by some.” [04:37]

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3. The Impact of Political Climate on Comedy

Josh explores how the current political environment influences his work as a comedian.

• Redundancy in Political Jokes: He expresses concern that continuously targeting the same political figure, like Trump, can lead to repetitive and less impactful humor.

  “Every once in a while, someone will do something. But to talk about the same person for a long time... could get in danger of redundancy.” [08:55]

• Shift to Deeper Commentary: Instead of focusing solely on individual politicians, Josh prefers addressing broader societal issues, making his comedy more nuanced and insightful.

  “I like talking about the idea of something he did that it could even happen. That, to me, is so interesting to talk about.” [11:40]

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4. The Luigi and Brian Thompson Incident

A significant portion of the episode centers around a high-profile shooting incident involving individuals named Luigi and Brian Thompson. Josh and Toure dissect societal reactions and media portrayals of the event.

• Societal Polarization: They discuss how traditional media versus social media frame the incident differently, leading to a divide in public perception.

  “Traditional media left and right is kind of like, hey, every murder is bad and you guys should not be celebrating. And some anchors are scolding us like children.” [20:00]

• Villain Perception: Josh analyzes how society tends to dehumanize certain groups, making it easier to find humor or satisfaction in the downfall of perceived "enemies."

  “If you can make a pedophile cry, that's pretty funny... But when bad things happen to the definitive enemy, it's inherently okay to laugh at.” [16:15]

• Storytelling Flaws: They critique the simplistic hero-villain narratives often presented in media, advocating for more nuanced storytelling that recognizes the complexity of individuals.

  “We are the imperfect representatives of our stories... the stories people want for us.” [65:15]

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5. Storytelling, Villainy, and Media Narratives

Josh delves deeper into the role of storytelling in shaping public perception of events and individuals.

• Imperfect Representation: He argues that individuals like Brian Thompson, despite their actions, are portrayed without the exaggerated villainous traits that might make their actions seem more inherently evil.

  “He is an imperfect representative because he doesn't look like the devils.” [65:15]

• Motive and Morality: The discussion highlights how motives behind actions affect public sympathy and the moral judgments passed on individuals.

  “Motive really goes a long way in defining how we feel about the character.” [62:44]

• Media's Role: They critique how media narratives often lack depth, preventing audiences from understanding the full context of incidents.

  “There's a need for nuanced storytelling instead of one-dimensional heroes and villains.” [34:13]

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6. Money Distribution and Class Dynamics in America

The conversation shifts to the broader theme of economic disparity and its impact on societal issues.

• Root Causes of Problems: Josh asserts that the fundamental issue isn't the lack of money but how it's distributed across different classes.

  “We have enough money to take care of everybody and we don't do it.” [37:39]

• Class Divide: He discusses how both Republican and Democratic elites often cater to the upper class, leaving the working class underserved.

  “America's more class than anything, and Republicans sort of openly serve the upper class, and Democrats quietly serve the upper class.” [06:54]

• Policy Implications: Josh suggests that effective policies should focus on equitable distribution and social functions rather than partisan favoritism.

  “Let's offer up things that help everybody and do it functionally.” [39:47]

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7. Josh Johnson’s Role at The Daily Show and Creative Process

Josh shares insights into his professional life, detailing his responsibilities and creative strategies at The Daily Show.

• Daily Workflow: He outlines a typical day, from morning meetings to pitching and writing segments, emphasizing teamwork and collaboration.

  “We’ll do the morning meeting and stuff like that. Pitch out things. If I find out that I'm on the show, I can help write the piece.” [44:26]

• Handling Pressure: Contrary to popular belief, Josh doesn't feel undue pressure but rather a sense of responsibility to meet expectations through honest and authentic communication.

  “I feel like responsibility focuses you.” [43:55]
  “If you are speaking to your experience earnestly, even in the long run, you will be appreciated for it.” [40:44]

• Maintaining Creativity: He emphasizes the importance of continuously evolving and avoiding complacency to maintain the quality and relevance of his comedy.

  “I wouldn’t say comfortable, because I think that comfortability can... lead you to wane a little bit.” [48:18]

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8. Future Plans and Career Aspirations

Looking ahead, Josh outlines his ambitions for expanding his comedic reach and making a positive impact.

• Ambitious Tours: He plans to undertake more extensive tours that not only entertain but also engage communities through collaborations and charitable initiatives.

  “Flowers Tour... every place that I go, we're gonna do as much as we can to sort of, like, grow and share.” [48:27]

• Community Engagement: Josh aims to integrate community support, such as animal adoptions, into his tours to create memorable and meaningful experiences for audiences.

  “We're trying to get, like, dogs and cats adopted and stuff like that.” [48:27]

• Expanding Reach: He expresses a desire to perform in larger venues and possibly develop content that allows him to share his humor and insights with broader audiences.

  “I want to be able to do bigger shows that I can share my thoughts and my jokes with people in bigger spaces.” [48:27]

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9. Insights on Comedy and Other Comedians

Josh appreciates the diversity in comedic styles and highlights fellow comedians who inspire him.

• Commending Peers: He praises comedians like Maria Bamford, Eagle Wit, and Zainab for their intelligent and poignant humor.

  “Maria Bamford is phenomenal... Eagle Wit. And Zainab.” [72:24]

• Importance of Awareness: Emphasizing the role of self-awareness and audience understanding in crafting effective comedy.

  “A lot of thinking that goes into it... managing where the story goes and where the audience's head goes.” [56:51]

• Subversive Humor: Josh values comedy that challenges prevailing narratives and offers fresh perspectives rather than merely following trends.

  “Comedy in its nature is supposed to be a little bit subversive of what everyone's thinking.” [51:51]

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10. Final Thoughts on Politics, Policies, and Future Prospects

Towards the end of the episode, Josh and Toure reflect on the cyclical nature of political blame-shifting and the challenges it poses for effective governance.

• Scapegoating in Politics: They discuss how both political parties blame each other for societal issues without addressing underlying systemic problems.

  “Each party scapegoats the other party for the things that they need that they know the country actually needs.” [86:06]

• Policy Failures: Critique of bipartisan failures to implement sustainable policies, leading to recurring crises and public dissatisfaction.

  “We do have this cyclical blame-shifting... and the reply is always, whoever denied it, supplied it.” [91:35]

• Concern for Future Stability: Expressing worries about the potential for political mismanagement to lead to irreversible societal harm.

  “This one could be so intentional and then unintentionally disastrous that I think we could be in a place that is hard to come back from.” [89:21]

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Conclusion

This episode of The Toure Show offers a deep dive into the complexities of modern American politics, the role of comedy in navigating societal tensions, and the challenges of effective storytelling in media. Josh Johnson provides thoughtful critiques and forward-thinking solutions, all while maintaining his signature humor and intellectual rigor. Listeners gain valuable insights into the interplay between politics, media narratives, and the personal responsibilities of those in the public eye.

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Notable Quotes:

• Josh Johnson on Democratic Messaging:

  “I think there is a mysterious, elusive middle ground that's gonna like, bring the whole country together on policy that I don't think is real.” [03:06]

• On Redundancy in Comedy:

  “Trying to create an imaginary path while ignoring the biases of the people is ill advised.” [04:37]

• On Villain Perception:

  “If you can make a pedophile cry, that's pretty funny.” [16:15]

• On Responsibility Over Pressure:

  “I feel more like responsibility focuses you.” [43:55]

• On Storytelling Flaws:

  “We are the imperfect representatives of our stories.” [65:15]

• On Money Distribution:

  “We have enough money to take care of everybody and we don't do it.” [37:39]

• On Future Tour Goals:

  “Flowers Tour... every place that I go, we're gonna do as much as we can to sort of, like, grow and share.” [48:27]

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This summary encapsulates the rich and multifaceted discussion between Toure and Josh Johnson, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the episode's key themes and insights.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

That might be the best question I've ever been asked.

[B]

Phenomenal person. I mean, you legendary. I am a fan of you, my brother. As humans, we are imperfect representatives of stories. So as bad as what Brian Thompson did as CEO of the company and everything horrible that UnitedHealth does, he is an imperfect representative because he doesn't look like the devils. It would be more fitting if he looked like the devil in his picture. For everything that the company did, for everything that he okayed. It'd be great if he had some fangs and some horns, but he just looks like a person. And then you look at Luigi, and it would be great if he had to. Your point? A little bit more of like a Batman origin story where he's like, guys, I wish I could do it the right, legal, moral way, but I just can't take it anymore. But we are the imperfect representatives of our stories, you know, and. And of the stories. People that want the stories that people want for us. And so it doesn't shock me. It didn't really surprise me that the. The overall story of how these two people came together was a little less than stellar.

[A]

Josh Johnson is an amazing intellectual comedian. He's on the Daily show constantly talking about what's going on in the news. So with Luigi and all these other things in the news, I said, yo, let's get my man Josh to come back and talk about what he thinks about the way the world is going. So let's get into it. It's my man Josh Johnson on Torre show. Josh, how you doing?

[B]

I'm pretty good. How are you?

[A]

I'm all right. I haven't seen you in a minute. I want to hear your sort of big theory on what happened in the election and why Trump and the Magas prevailed.

[B]

Okay, well, I can tell you this off top, I'm gonna be wrong. So just don't take what I say as like, if they had just done that, everything would have worked out okay. But I do think it's very easy to poke and point at problems after the fact. But I will just point out some things that I heard people saying during the election that I think were pretty spot on, that I don't know if it would have wanted for, but I do think it could have helped. And it's something to look to for the future with the next candidate. One thing is I think that there is a mysterious, elusive middle ground that's gonna like, bring the whole country together on policy that I don't think is real. I think that being a Diet Republican for any candidate who is running as a Democrat will not appeal to that many Republicans. I don't think they'll make them vote Democrat. And I especially don't think it will appeal to your Democrat constituents whose vote you all but taking for granted by doing something like that. And I also think that you have to. You have to consolidate with, with who you have. And look at the numbers. It's literally why people concede sometimes in a primary, because they're like, we looked at the numbers and there's just no path.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think trying to create an imaginary path while ignoring the biases of the people is ill advised. I think that, like, if you put a different candidate with the same messaging on up against Trump in 2024, personally, I think they would have lost. And if you put Kamala up with some different policies that were more Democratic centered, I think she still probably would have lost. I think you can start to close some of those margins with some different messaging, some different policy. But people were overlooking how deeply unpopular Joe Biden was, and they were also not looking at the way that she was seen as an incumbent by some.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Also, when it comes to Republicans and Democrats, the messaging remove candidates for a second. The general messaging and the general flexing is something that Democrats need to work on for their people and for their party. So I think one of the biggest issues that we've seen that has been fully expressed by people smarter than me is when you look at the Democrats, you look at the Republicans, one of the reasons that a Democratic think tank or a campaign or the people higher up in the DNC could allow them to run what felt like a Diet Republican campaign and Sometimes down ballot. Like, I'm not gonna say it was everybody, and I'm not even saying it was Kamala all the time, but, like, for the first time in a long time, Democrats were running on, like, immigration, and it just. It just sounded like something you would have seen a Republican run on in 2020, that some of these governors and just different commercials that I saw and different races I saw, I was kind of like, oh, that's interesting that you wanna close the border, but you're. And it just sounded like they were trying to get everybody in one swoop. Right. And I think that it's starting to feel in a big way, like America's more class than anything, and Republicans sort of openly serve the upper class, and Democrats quietly serve the upper class, leaving people that are working class with nothing. And I think that there were so many people that voted. You can see by virtue of the fact that people voted for AOC and Trump on the same ticket as people just wanted to get out of the hole that they were in, and they think that a president or a politician alone is gonna solve it.

[A]

Is Trump good for you as far as your business?

[B]

I wouldn't say so, no. Because my business relies on everyone doing well. If I put up tickets for a comedy show that I'm doing when I go to Nashville and everyone in Nashville is broke, then how is that good for me? I do well when everyone does well, and I do the best when people have as easy of a time as buying a ticket and feeling like they can afford a ticket is possible.

[A]

You know, I totally understand that some people would say, but look at the great material you're going to get from this buffoon.

[B]

Yeah, but I can write jokes about anything, so I don't really need to write jokes about Trump. You know, I mean, like. Like, I. I personally don't enjoy writing jokes super, super specific to a person or a candidate. More than, like, once in a while. Every once in a while, someone will do something. But to talk about the same person for a long time, it could get. You're in danger of redundancy. Not saying redundancy is going to happen, but I think that you then have to rise to the level of being so unique in your takes and so fresh in your commentary. And that, to me, is more difficult than a new person.

[A]

Let's pull out just a little bit. Not just you, but the Daily show world, is it not? I assume most of the people there are lefty and would feel like Trump is probably bad for the country, but is the general Feeling like, well, this is good for us, because being in opposition and having this person that we can make fun of is better than the other side would have been.

[B]

I just don't. I don't think so, because I don't think that. Let's blow it up even more outside of any, like, known entity and just. And just talk about it as if, like, person A. Right. If you already have four years worth of jokes, technically four and a half to five, because you got to count the campaign, four and a half to five years worth of jokes about person A. And some people never stop telling those jokes, by the way. Not you. You kind of started to leave it alone. Then out of nowhere, you're offered another four and a half to five years of opportunities to make jokes about the same person. I don't think it's the. Well that people think it is. Okay, Because I think if you are making comedy in a vacuum, and if you were making comedy and you were the only ones allowed to write it, then, sure, maybe. But I think that because it's the whole world and because we all saw it, I think everyone's gonna get equally sick, equally fast of things that are not on a higher level of commentary. So I think Trump, for my business of writing jokes and doing comedy, makes it more difficult than makes it easier. Because even if you do have a take, even if you do have a Trump joke now, the layperson who doesn't do comedy is like, which one is it now? KFC? McDonald's? He's orange, he's fat, he's ugly, he's old. What are you gonna hit us with now? Whereas I think if you talk about things that are deeper than an individual, if you talk about how he now has won and he owes his people something, something that he himself seems to already, before day one, be backtracking, that he will be able to deliver for them. That, to me, is so interesting to talk about, because now we're talking about something that could happen again in politics, and we're talking about something that has happened in politics since the beginning of don't worry, just pay me, and I'll fix it. Do you know what I mean? So I think that Trump makes comedy a bit more difficult. If you want to talk about Trump, I think that comedy itself will always be fine, because, like I said about myself, I find it more interesting to talk about everything. So I kind of, like, leave Trump to his devices when I'm thinking of comedy. And it's only if something particularly poignant happens that I would even Mention him. And I don't like talking about him specifically as a person. I like talking about the idea of something he did that it could even happen. That, to me, is very interesting.

[A]

Let's pull back a little more. Not just Trump, but Mangione and all these other things. It seems like it's kind of like an amazing time to be a thoughtful comedian because there's so many big, thoughtful things that keep happening in our world. And it's like, a lot, you know, Diddy was a whole fricking, you know, thing that you were able to eat on and, like, these big moments. This is great for you.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's. It's definitely an opportunity, and it's something that I'm doing my best to make sure I don't drop the ball on when something happens and when I have a lot of thoughts on it and ideas that arise from it as far as, like, how to digest it or the thought process I went through when I was going over it then. Yeah, it's. It's like that. That's also why some of the woke complaints don't hit me in an authentic way, because I'm like, you can still joke about everything. It's just the people you're doing, the jokes two and four have to be laughing at them. So it's like, I don't know what outside of, like, words, people feel like they can't say. I don't know what's changed from those, like, Def Jam 90s. Like, you can still get people doubling over laughing if you're doing jokes that they enjoy. And so, you know, so much of it is like finding your audience, and then. And then by speaking authentically, you find those people, and then you speak to them in a language they understand. So I don't think comedy is, like, worse or, like, harder to do. A lot of these notions that I get asked about sometimes I think that it's still just whichever lane you want to take it down, you can. And some people have chosen lanes that are, like, well worn. You know what I mean? And so I think that's a bigger issue.

[A]

So, wait, so I want to talk about Luigi and the thought. The phrase comes to me, comedy is tragedy plus time. But this is a situation where either you don't think it was a tragedy or, you know, you could see it was a tragedy. But the amount of time it took for us to be able to laugh at it was milliseconds.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And there's so many aspects of this story that have been Grisched for comedy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So many different jokes. I mean, people are having a field day making jokes about this whole situation. Why is this whole story so funny?

[B]

I think that. Let me see. The best example I can give is. Did you ever watch Scared Straight?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Did you ever watch To Catch a Predator?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Those shows did so well because they made you laugh and feel comfortable laughing at two groups of people that society genuinely despises. We hate teenagers, and we hate pedophiles. And so it's like, if you could make a pedophile cry, that's pretty funny. That's like. And he's crying because he's been exposed and his life is over, which is, like, in one sense, not funny, because he's like, oh, no. Everyone at my work's gonna find out. I'm gonna. My wife's gonna divorce me. I've ruined my life. All for. And then it's always the first time. Every time they get caught. I've never done this before. Whatever. So. Especially if that. Let's say. Let's pretend for a second that that's true. That's even sadder because now they had this, like, impulse, and they went with it, but. But then the first time. The first time that they ever went to do it, Chris Hansen shows up with all of NBC, and you know what I mean? Like, that is a tragedy. That's funny in the moment. This grown man is just, like, shaking, and Chris Hansen's telling him to sit down, and he's listening to him.

[A]

You know, when I was at msnbc and NBC is right there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Every once in a while, the elevator opens, and there's Chris Hansen, and he's. And you're like, no, everything's fine. Everything's.

[B]

You're also like, he's on his way. He's. He's about to. He. He's about to go in real time, watch somebody ruin their life.

[A]

Right, right, right, right.

[B]

And. And so I think that.

[A]

Well, hold. I didn't. I mean, I. I didn't find those shows funny. I mean, I was like, yay. This horrible person is having their.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Downfall right in front of us. But, like. And Scared Straight out. I mean, I didn't think that was funny.

[B]

I don't think all of Scared Straight was funny. I think that. I think for my example, what you and I gleamed off of, that is exactly like the CEO shooting. Because there were some people that were like, yay, this thing happened. But they didn't think it was funny. And there were people that thought it was Funny right away, because they were like, yay, this thing happened. And then with Scared Straight, it's like, okay, this is a kid in a very sad situation. Because usually kids don't get to be this bad unless something has happened or unless there's some trauma there. But then what we laugh at is that this kid who was terrible, you know, I remember there was one. I'm remembering it horribly. So I'm almost just imagine I'm making this one up because they're all mushing together. But this kid that like punched his grandma or something like that. So it's like, Ari, you did a horrible thing. And now this inmate is making you put Kool Aid on your lips and you're like, oh, God. And then this moment goes viral. Cause he calls you an orange flavored motherfucker. Like, that is so sad. But it's very funny because it's like, okay, I don't have to feel bad for this kid because he punched his grandma.

[A]

Okay, let's talk about Luigi.

[B]

But no, but this is all to do with that. Because basically I think. I think that when you have a group, whether it's kids that are horrible people to the people around them, whether it's predators, whether it's CEOs, right, you now have a group of people, a class of people, a collection of people that we have decided we don't need to feel bad for. So then when something happens and there are funny details to it or what, like people can laugh immediately because Luigi didn't haul off and shoot a doctor. He didn't haul off and shoot a surgeon that maybe did a bad surgery on him or something like that. He did it to someone who we see as the definitive enemy. And by them being the definitive enemy, when bad things happen to the definitive enemy of whoever, people usually find those things funny. If you can show me footage of Stalin tripping, people will laugh at it. Cause it's Stalin. Do you know what I mean? And a bad thing happened to Stalin, which is inherently okay to laugh at. I think that what's surprising people in this moment is how many people feel that way and the brazenness with which they feel it. Because there is not in the steps to get there. There haven't been many visible ones.

[A]

No, it's a real divide in media of like traditional media left and right is kind of like, hey, every murder is bad and you guys should not be celebrating. And some anchors are scolding us like children, like, you should feel sad.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then on social media, and when you get Alternative media and citizen media, they are like, this is amazing. That's hysterical. Fuck that guy. Like, he killed how many fucking people?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's this complete divide.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's. You know, it's crazy.

[B]

And so I think what you get with that is. Is. How do I put this? I think that, like, sometimes as Americans, we're not the best at storytelling, we're great at making movies. But, like, when it comes to, like, selling a story and a message, we're usually kind of one note and two things can be true at the same time. Like, this thing could have happened to a horrible person and still not be the way you should go about doing things. So I think that. That.

[A]

That.

[B]

I think that's the world we live in. I like. I think that's what happened. I think that this guy lists me. Everything that he did, I'd be like, yeah, that's a bad person. Right. This way of handling it doesn't have sustainability to it.

[A]

It doesn't.

[B]

But, I mean.

[A]

But I'm not concerned with what I. I don't. I don't know. I can't even deal with that. And obviously, we don't want everybody to go out and do that.

[B]

No, no, I'm with you.

[A]

I don't feel bad for that happening.

[B]

But I'm saying. I'm saying that's where.

[A]

Because we're not. It's easy to call Luigi a murderer, and of course, he is. Harder to see the legalized murder that Brian was able to lead thousands of people to do to thousands and thousands of Americans who are there fucking paying customers. And I'm like, if the conversation doesn't include. He also murdered a lot of people.

[B]

No. For sure.

[A]

What the fuck are we talking about?

[B]

Well, no, that's where I'm at. And I've said this to friends, and I've said this to a lot of people. I was having conversations from a friend today where it's basically what Luigi did is easier for people to see as murder one, because it was abrupt. It was very quick, happened very quickly. And then second. Because he did it for free.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But we understand Brian got paid to kill people.

[A]

You pull a trigger, fire a bullet into somebody's body, you killed them.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Trickier to see you said no when they said, we need cancer drugs. And you delayed and denied and defended and then she died.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And, like, did I give her cancer? No. Did I put a knife in her? No. But, like, you killed her.

[B]

Well, this is also where I. Where I went with People who were, I know a couple people who were, how can I put this? It's so weird when you have to couch empathy. But it's like I knew people who were very sad about the thing happening in a way that was like, oh, what are we coming to? And I told them, I was like, look, all this, we can clear all this out real quick. All you have to do is do the opposite of what we've been doing. So rather than health insurance companies being able to lobby politicians, which gives them the ability to say yes and no to whoever they want for whatever reason and change the rules even though you keep paying, rein them in and you, the government, be like, look, how about this? You have all these paying customers, you're only allowed to deny 12% all year and if you get to 12% in January, good luck to you. But like you can only deny 12% of claims something, I mean something, then you have the politicians doing their part. And then as an insurance company you also go out there and you're like, look, we basically to be able to fund what we said we would fund by you getting with us, we need to get more people in. So yeah, go ahead and get younger people on the health insurance offer cheap health insurance for people who probably aren't gonna need it so that you have some dollars to go to the people that definitely need it rather than taking everyone's money and then just deny delay. So my thing is this is a solvable problem.

[A]

It is, every unranged country's doing it.

[B]

And that's my thing where I'm like, I'm like, obviously you shouldn't even have to say it. And you have to say it every five seconds so people don't think you've been radicalized. But like obviously you don't just go out and kill people. But also there is clearly a very easy, very sustainable wake up call that could happen where you're like, okay, if we conduct business in a way where we have to hide, then maybe we just should not do it that way because you could make a billion less dollars cuz you're still gonna have $100 billion. You know what I mean? So that's where I kind of get into it with people that are so doom and gloom about it, cuz it's like, look, I didn't go out on the streets. Yeah, we got them. I just was saying, look, this was an inevitability, do you know what I mean? Like sadly it was. It just so happens that the details are more interesting and odder and somewhat funnier than people could have expected. Who would have thought Luigi would have been rich?

[A]

Well, he is a perpetrator of violence like we perhaps have not seen at all in our time. I mean, I'm sure this happened in previous generation. Like our grandparents could be like, oh, good looking, you know, valedictorian part of the world. Not like a loner, comes from money, seems to have lots of things going for him. You know, obviously the brother had his, has his problems, but like, you know, we've not seen a villain if he's the villain, you know, principled, right. Attacking the right people, not sending bombs to low level people, but going after a top guy. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Holy. And he seemed, at least in the first act of all this, really smart and funny, you know, with the, the, the Monopoly bunny and he's writing words and the bullets and it's like, who.

[B]

Is like, it was not just the.

[A]

Looks, it's like, you are like, amazing.

[B]

Do you think that perception changed when he got caught, do you think? Because personally, I think a lot of people are maybe missing. This is just my thing and like, maybe I'm in conspiracy world now or whatever, but to get caught when he got caught and to get caught where he got caught, one of two things was happening. He either did not care about being caught or he was on the way to shoot somebody else who hangs out with the gun that they shot somebody with. I can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve. And it does without me lifting a finger so I can get in more squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3.

[A]

Will that be cash or credit?

[B]

Credit. 4 Galaxy S25 Ultra, the AI companion.

[A]

That does the heavy lifting.

[B]

So you can do you get [e-mail] compatible with select apps.

[A]

Requires Google Gemini.

[B]

Account results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like a single man. Like you fucking let us know. Yeah, this is what we're looking like. So you kind of know you can't. You can't go to a hotel, you can't go to a motel. So where are you sleeping for four days? You didn't get a good. If you didn't get a good sleep, you're going to be tired. I don't know why he still has the gun. You. You give me a different idea. If you're like, he was going to go do something else.

[B]

I'm just saying it seemed like he was on the way because how do you have. You still have all your fake IDs with you, you still have your gun, you still have, you know, I mean, and then. And then he's saying some of the stuff was planted on him, which, like, I don't know. I don't know about that. I don't know.

[A]

Part of me, I'm like, I don't know why, if you got to the bus in New York, you wouldn't go to the end. Wherever the bus is ending, that's where I'm going. And I assume those buses will go, like, to D.C. and then you change and you go to Alabama or whatever. I'm like, I want to go as far away from New York City as possible.

[B]

I think it's easier than that. I think, you know, I don't know how much money he specifically has. We know he comes from money, but if you got money, let's say you did this and you got money, right? Eventually, as soon as you ditch the clothes, right, you show up somewhere in a suit, you get on a private plane, and then you fly to the other side of the country, and then you take a bus to Mexico, and then you whatever. If you leave the country, that's one thing. But within the country, no one. When you fly private, nobody's checking your bag. They're not checking for weapons. They're not checking for you Know, I mean that's why so many rappers fly private, right?

[A]

100%. I'm not certain if this individual had access to PJ money, but the precision that we saw out of what happened in New York. Yeah, I assumed there is a bicycle or a motorcycle or a car waiting for him in some other city. Like he, before he came to New York, he planted the getaway vehicle here. He's going to get to here and then he's biking to fucking Kansas or, or Colorado or whatever the fuck. And like you can't find me because I've gone to and then try to get to Canada. I'm thinking I want to try to go to Canada, not to Mexico. Right.

[B]

Maybe. I mean, I think it's easier. I think also we cannot take for granted, this is why I think he was always going somewhere else. We cannot take for granted how much we did not know who this was. And so if this dude had just rolled up to the Canadian border in not those clothes, I think he would have been very. Okay. I think I, I, my thing is to be caught where you got caught just screams you were going to do it again. And I don't know what CEOs are in Altoon.

[A]

I think they would have told us if there was a CEO at Altoona. I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

But, but that, that was my thing.

[A]

Your other question, what I sense just in the online discussion, a sort of, you know how like if people get an idea and they cling to it and more information, countervailing information, they will cling to the idea even more. Right. They won't change their mind. And everybody does this. It's just natural. And I see that we got this initial impression that he's smart and funny and clever and the other things, like getting caught at all, getting caught in Altoona, getting caught with the gun makes people either question it, they're like, I doubt it, they got the wrong guy. Or they're just like, I don't know what to do with this other information because I am holding onto the notion that he is smart and good looking and like they perceive him as cool or whatever. I mean, it sounds crazy. I think a lot of people do perceive him as cool.

[B]

I'll picture this. I've been telling my friends this as well. The only thing that sticks out to me about him is that he was just, just crazy enough to do it. That's literally it. When you read the things that he's written, you're like, oh, this person actually seems like with It.

[A]

He's not that bad.

[B]

So he didn't go off the rails and was like. And he planned. And then he. And we don't really know why he got caught or the way in which he allowed himself to be caught. Because also, if you have eight grand on you, if you have eight grand in cash on you, I don't think you're still walking around with the same clothes you did the murder in. I don't think you. I mean, like, there are a lot of little things. Which is also why personally, maybe I am clinging to information. I was like, maybe I am clinging to something that I thought at the time. But that's also why it seems like he was gonna do it again to me. Cause like, so there. There he's gone from a thing that people thought could not be pulled off to a thing that's riddled with so many mistakes. It seems like one episode of Law and Order would have covered your basics.

[A]

We do have to account, but the fact that every bit of information we have gotten since he got caught was given to us by the police who are working with strategic desire to de heroize him and to humiliate him and to make him look bad. And they released the picture of him having peed himself, which was meant to humiliate him. Now what many people assumed happened, it sounds very logical that they tased him and you would lose control of your bladder and then they make him sit in it and they take a picture of him like that now. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't even. I thought he just freaked out. Cause they arrested him and he peed himself like. And I would understand that.

[B]

Sure, sure, sure. I mean, well, also, he was taking too many good pictures. I don't know if you saw.

[A]

So they are trying to make us think he's not what we thought he was before. So I don't know what they are giving us to tell us make us think he know, you know.

[B]

Yeah, but I don't know how possible. I mean, I think you're right. I'm not arguing with you at all. I just think it's going to be very hard to do that because people's like. Like uncles and aunties aren't going to undie from cancer.

[A]

Does it change it for you that he's a. That he's a wealthy kid?

[B]

No, I don't think this is how much. This is the frustrating thing for me when it comes to money and the mindset of money in America to go back. But answer your question now in one foul swoop Right. You asked me things about the election, I told you about Democratic messaging and stuff like that. And I guess I never fully expressed the rest of that point, but it does have to do with this, right? There is an idea that, like, the overall root and cause of the problems in the country is money, when actually the root and the cause of the problems is just how the money's distributed, right? We have enough money to take care of everybody and we don't do it. Why do we not do it? We don't do it. Cause some people wanna hoard all the money. There are some people that feel like they don't have enough money, even though they have more than everyone around them, right? So you look at something where people say, eat the rich. They say they, they, they save. Down with capitalism, all this stuff like that. But at the end of the day, people just want to be taken care of and they just want things done, done for them. Not in a handout way, but in a social functions way, right? So if you're a Democrat, and this is one of the things that Democrats do not understand, first of all, we know Democratic politicians have money. We know that they're millionaires, okay? So let's not pretend that we care about the good of all. To a certain degree, you're a millionaire. And how'd you become a millionaire? Through the same insider trading the Republican politicians use, right? Because you're on committees in Congress. You know what's getting booted, what's getting, what's getting passed, right? Then you look at the shooter, right? Shooter is immediately made a hero because of what he did to someone who represents a lot of that evil, a lot of that money, a lot of that like, like building at all costs, right? Then it turns out he's rich and maybe even richer than the shooter. Because I've never heard of anybody's family owning a country club.

[A]

I thought, yeah, no, the shooter's family is richer than the victim's club. Yeah.

[B]

This is gonna sound so dumb, but, like, because they don't put names on country clubs, I didn't know anybody owned it. I really did. Cause you never heard of Rick's country club. That's never happened, right? I've done shows for rich people at a country club and didn't think someone in here owns everybody. Jeremy. So now you have an example where if it's all about money, if it's all about the rich, this is something the Democrats can learn from to a certain degree. I know it's away and far away from election talk, but this is something you can learn from. This dude is richer than the dude that he shot. And we still, as the public, like him more because of what he did. So it's not about the money. It's about how people behave.

[A]

Luigi's family is richer than Brian's family. Brian was way richer than Luigi.

[B]

Sure. But I think.

[A]

I think the massive cap of the mess of class.

[B]

Yes, yes. And so I'm just saying that, like, to a lot of people who are not in that. In that. In that class, it would probably feel like splitting hairs to say, like, when you see a rich kid at a boarding school, you don't think, well, just his dad's an oligarch. You think, no, his kid rich because his family's worth $100 million. So in some. He's somewhere in that 100 million. It may not be the whole hundred.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so I think that the way that we approach politics, the way we approach policy, one almost through the lens of what we can have happen to not have more copycats, is you have to look at it as, like, look, people want to be taken care of. They don't care if I'm rich as long as I'm not screwing them over. So let's make policies. Let's offer up things that help everybody and do it functionally. Because I know that a lot of Democratic platforms were gonna help everybody, but they weren't flexing that sort of thing the way that shooting a CEO in broad daylight feels like a flex against the ruling class.

[A]

I know when I was. When I was on msnbc, I felt a lot of pressure to work hard and be the best that I could be. Cause my colleagues were extraordinary. I had great respect for the audience. I had great respect for the history and tradition of the place. And you're at an amazing place where your colleagues are extraordinary. There's a high level of IQ in the audience. The tradition of the place is huge. Do you feel pressure and, like, you know, you're coming on the air, we're all talking about X, the election, Luigi, whatever it is. And now here comes Josh, and you gotta say something smart that the audience is like, yeah, that makes sense. And funny, right? And like. And like, do you feel pressure just because of the history, the tradition, the vaunted place that the Daily show has in a lot of people's mind?

[B]

No, because, one, I have really great people around me who don't put pressure on me. But also, I think that if you are speaking to your experience earnestly, even in the long run, you will be appreciated for it. So you may not in the moment, seem like you have the hot take or the funniest joke on the thing or whatever, but because you're speaking from a place of honesty and you're trying to speak to something true, you do get credit for that, like, down the line. And I think if you build up a career of that and if you build up a practice of doing that, you can't go wrong, you know? So I don't feel that pressure as in, like, oh, it's all on me to like, meet the moment. I feel that in maybe other ways, but I don't, I don't feel that necessarily when it comes to approaching comedic takes and like sharing information in a funny way.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Guarantees I mean, I kind of like the pressure because it kind of made me amp up.

[B]

Yeah, I think, I think. How about this? What I'll say I do feel is I definitely feel a responsibility. So I guess, I guess for me, pressure just fills in so many different spots of things I'm not feeling. I feel a responsibility to like, match what I've been given and the opportunities and then also kind of meet that expectation a little bit. So it's not. I sometimes feel like pressure is what makes you mess up something easy. The pressure of a Super bowl game makes a kicker who's kicked a kick a thousand times kick at the wrong. Yes, responsibility focuses you. And so like, if I, if, if we're off by one point and this kick is going to win us a Super bowl, it's my responsibility to kick this field goal. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I feel more like that than the other way.

[A]

But that helps you remove pressure.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You don't want to feel pressure.

[B]

I think, I think pressure to what you're saying, I think it does work where you're like, man, everybody around me is killing it. And like, I want to be. I want to be able to like, match their energy, get up to their level, what, you know, whatever the words are to fill in that space of that feeling. I think for some people that pressure can be very constructive. But I think by and large, for a lot of people, including myself, sometimes pressure is a little more of a distraction than it should be.

[A]

You talk about the process and the schedule even of you're doing a bit on the show tonight. So what is your day gonna look like from. Cause I assume it's not. It's written the same day, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I basically, you know, we'll do the morning meeting and stuff like that. Pitch out things. If I find out that I'm on the show, I can help write the piece. And then we rehearse and then we rewrite and then we do the show. So that kind of covers the full.

[A]

Day, nine to five.

[B]

Yeah, about. Yeah. And so it's like, it's like such a. Such an incredible institution and such a refined process that you don't feel like, oh, no, I've had such a long day or something like that. Like, I still feel good enough to go do a show after the show. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, to do your. To do a comedy show. To do.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

How many people are in the group? Just the number of people in the core creative decision making group of writers, producers, comedians.

[B]

That's a good question. I mean, I feel like it's hard. It's hard to be nailed.

[A]

Somebody's gonna be insulted. If I say six, then Sally's gonna be like, what the.

[B]

No, no, no. I think I. That it's a very good question. I mean, are you talking about. With my process, Are you talking about.

[A]

Just the show in general?

[B]

Oh, just a show? What, 19, if I had to guess or something. I don't know. Yeah, it's like, it's like it's a decent sized group that, you know, create and make the show everything that it is, you know, and like. And it's live to tape. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, no, no, we only go live for like certain events. So it's like we. We only do the live show for like election night stuff like that.

[A]

But you're live to tape.

[B]

Yeah, live to tape for. For, like, every other day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you see yourself staying there for a while or you like.

[B]

I mean, I love it there. I love. I love everything that I'm doing right now. I love being at the show. I love. I love doing my sets on the weekends. I love putting out stuff on YouTube to share with people and everything. Like, everything that I'm doing right now is kind of what I've been working towards for a long, long time. So I feel very excited about where everything right now is gonna take me. Like, I wouldn't say comfortable, because I think that comfortability can. When comfortability is like, anything but appreciation, I think it can, like, lead you to wane a little bit. But if you're. If you're com. If you're comfortable in that you very much enjoy where you are right now, then I think that that's good. But if you're comfortable to the point of, like, oh, yeah, I guess I'll just do the. What I'm doing now exactly as it is forever, because it's working, I think that you would start to produce less and less quality. Whereas I think that if you're like, no, I love what I'm doing right now, and I want to do it for the foreseeable future. I think you can still excel at getting better at what you're doing where you are.

[A]

So what's the stretch goal? Like, what's the goal for. Like, we're building, building, building. Like, in four to five years, you have what you want. Big special on such and such.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Arena tour or a movie or. Or a network show built around you. Like, what do you want for the next stage?

[B]

Yeah, I think it's. It's. It's like, it's unfamiliar sounding to be content, but I think what I want is more and a better version of the same. I want to be able to do bigger shows that I can share my. My thoughts and my jokes with people in bigger spaces. I want to be able to create, like, for instance, with the tour next year. It's the most ambitious that I've been with a tour because I have a real belief that if you can make an experience out of touring, you can. You can, like, build with your audience something special in the way of memories. And so, you know, we're calling Flowers Tour, and it's basically every place that I go. We're gonna do as much as we can to sort of, like, grow and share, you know, so in. In the first Quarter. We have a lot that we're trying to do in. In collaboration with. With shelters, trying to get, like, dogs and. And cats adopted and stuff like that, but also at the same time, showing these people who come to the show for comedy. Here's what's in your. Like, here's. Here's what's already happening here. Here's all the good that your community's already doing. Right? And I want to get better at doing that in a way where the messaging is strong and where I have the reach to be able to just do something cool for fans whenever I feel like it. And resources are not. Not an aspect of the thinking process.

[A]

Don't you want, like, a show built around you and.

[B]

I don't know, maybe. Yeah, that might be nice too. But I think that everything that I'm excited. Excited about making is all the stuff I wanted when I was a kid. So, you know, in my world, if I was a kid and my favorite comedian came to town and they didn't just come to town, they had, like, all these, like, cool activations and, like, installations for a day, and it was almost like a festival came to town. When they came, they didn't just, like, come and do the show and then head out. I think that I would remember that forever, and I think it would spark a little bit more creativity in me to be like, okay, they did this thing. Well, what you look at Kendrick doing the pop out, it's like, what other versions of the pop out are there now that we at least have one? We know that this thing is possible. So what else is possible? So now it has more people thinking with context to how to create. And so I would like to do that almost as like a giving back in the way that it's been done for me, you know, Are you able.

[A]

To do Drake jokes as far as, like, is the audience, like, laughing with that or is he too popular?

[B]

No, he's not too popular. I mean, I think I also. The tack that I take with Drake is just fully communicating how I feel about what he's doing. I don't know him as a man, Right. And I don't know what I would do in his situation. But I can tell you, if this thing happens and I talk about it and I tell you what's funny about it, we can all laugh. Even if you like Drake.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You know, so I never want to. And this is my intention. This is the intended goal with comedy for me. I'm not saying I'm always going to fulfill this or it's always possible. Or maybe I'm not even doing it now. Maybe it's just an idealized notion. But I think for any joke that I tell about a person or about a group or anything, I would like for them to be able to laugh at it if they have any sort of openness or willingness to the person themselves.

[A]

Yeah, you don't want the Kanye fish dicks thing to happen.

[B]

Not necessarily. I know sometimes it happens anyway because you even mention a person. But I do think that I could write a joke that maybe, depending on his demeanor, depending on his, like, state of mind at the time, that Drake could be like, eyes. That's all right. You know what I mean?

[A]

I don't know if he.

[B]

And if it's. And if it's not possible, it's not possible. That's okay.

[A]

I think, like, Kanye, he probably is not able to, like.

[B]

Oh, yeah, he may not be able to laugh at himself, but I also think that it's important to not. I'm not just, like, laughing at Drake for the sake of it. I think there are things, there are, like, cultural trends and stuff like that that are almost bandwagon y to a certain point where it's like, it's cool to clown Drake right now. Luigi's the hero right now. Yeah. I mean, there's a certain way of thinking that is, like, you could go with the flow on. And I think comedy in its nature is supposed to be a little bit subversive of what everyone's thinking so that you can make a joke that people haven't already thought of. And so I think that in that subversion, I look at someone like Drake and I'm like, all right, well, everyone's clowning right now. But I guess what would you do if everyone was clowning you? And now we have jokes. Now we can come up with jokes. Because I'm not talking about. I'm not admonishing people for clowning Drake. I'm also not saying that I'm also just gonna keep clowning Drake. I'm saying, ah, what will we do in this situation? Cuz that's a funny situation to be in. Cuz he is in the peed your pants in front of everybody of hip hop. So now how do you get out of that? Do you try to make peeing your pants cool? Do you try to. Nah, nah, y'all don't understand. I spilled some champagne on my pants, like, so now where are we? Because that's where jokes come from. And when it comes to Luigi, it's like, okay, we all feel this way, but why do we feel this way? Because we don't celebrate when a random person gets shot. In fact, you know who I feel bad for? I feel bad for anyone else who was shot in New York that day. They had the whole NYPD looking for somebody else's killer. I got shot, too. So now we have jokes. Now we can play. Because the whole point is subvert the thought. That is like, not necessarily. I won't call it run of the mill, but is. Is in the consciousness. So if you can subvert that now. Now we're playing, and it's all fun. So I don't have to be the opposite to you. I think that sometimes that's a very surface level thing to take, where some comedians will be like, well, because everybody thinks this, I have to say the opposite. And it's like, that is a way to subvert. But I think there are more subtle ways to subvert, because now we don't have to make it about one specific thing. Anti or for. That's a very American way of thinking. Which is why I said we're not always the best storytellers, because we're cut and dry, hero, villain, and we don't have any gray areas for, like, antihero, tortured villain. You know what I mean? And so that's also, to answer your previous question again, that's also why I don't know if Trump is good for my comedy necessarily. Because I look at Trump and I see, all right, this thing happened. Everybody's talking about it. Is there anything in here that might be an angle that I at least haven't heard yet? Because I can't take in all the comedy either. So I'm trying my best to, like, find a through line that's, like, the one hole that hasn't been poked already. And that's harder with someone who we know so well and who takes up the news the whole time he does anything. He takes over whole new cycles for days.

[A]

I'm interested, though, in, like, you put a lot of thought into the joke, and there's a lot of thought in the conceptual aspect of the joke and where is the funny and where should I be aiming? And I find that really interesting. And it's not really like, if I come up with the right string of words that will make them laugh. If I say, asparagus, that's a funny word, you're like, where's the vibe? The vibe, the world's vibe is here. So if I sit here, that. Right, like that, then. And if I play you off of this, right? You're, you're really in, you're really envisioning the joke before you zone in on the actual words of it.

[B]

Yeah, because I think that the, the messaging and the, the feeling that someone gets when the, the premise hits them, it's like you can't get out of that. And so, so much about comedy is awareness. So you have to be very aware of yourself. Like you, you'll see it sometimes where someone who is new in comedy will sometimes get up there and maybe they're a very good looking person, but they have a funny joke about when they were in high school and they weren't good looking. So now they get up there and they speak as if they are from high school. So they're like, oh, you know, cause I'm ugly. But then everyone's looking at the person and be like, you're actually hot. So now we're already not with you. Do you know what I mean? Whereas a total awareness, an awareness of how people are feeling about a subject, an awareness of what you want to say may take them. Now we can play with where things go from here. Do you know what I mean? Because there's an awareness of like, all right, I realize if I say this thing this way, the hope is that you might think I mean this and then I can turn it around. The hope is that when I say these words, you'll be reminded of a different thing I said earlier. So then the callback will hit harder because now I'm talking about different subject. So it's a lot of thinking that goes into it. But also, even in the writing, it's like a lot of just management of where the story goes and where the audience's head goes during the story. Because I know that when someone's telling me a story, if I have to ask several questions out loud or in my head, they're not telling a good story.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, and you see people have this with their spouses sometimes or with their good friends, where I put their packet.

[A]

On the glass, you know, what glass?

[B]

What glass? Or like, my favorite is like. Cause I do this to people in my personal life. I'll tell them a very bad story because I'll be like, and then, you know, Shonda walked in. And then everyone is like, who is Shonda? Cause I'm saying Shonda. Like, everyone knows her. So I don't set her up at all. I don't introduce her. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess I never explained Shonda. So now we're explaining Shonda, which also makes them forget what the story was even about.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

And so then on stage you have to be very mindful of, like, here's everywhere that the story goes. Here's how we get there in real time. Here's also the part where it's important to get through quickly because this is the part that sets up stuff. But this part might be.

[A]

Yes, yes. I need you to know this, but it's not exciting.

[B]

I need you to know this part because it makes the next 15 minutes very funny.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, and then sometimes you can even play with that detail later. Sometimes you can. That's also where Vibe comes in. Because if an audience is fun, you can even skip a thing that you need just to then come back later and be like, oh, I forgot to mention, he's been white the whole time.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

Like that, like that thing, that detail, it could have set up the picture of the story better, but it's funnier if it comes later or if it. So.

[A]

And you always gotta have some fun signposts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is the piece of information you need to know. And then he said, blah, you know, like, don't pay attention here.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or this is gonna come back later.

[B]

It's also like, you know the thing I'm doing about the. Like, while we're recording this, the thing I'm doing about the shooter hasn't come out yet. But like, there are details when you tell a story that are the most exciting, most interesting detail to you. Even though the whole story is exciting, there are little pieces in there where you are like, this part is crazy, Jamie, because even for me, when he got caught and there's the footage of him on the camera, like when he was, when he was sitting in the McDonald's, right?

[A]

Uh huh. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And he was eating the hash brown. And I was like, man, he's eating a hash brown. This means eating a hash brown. Which means it's early. It's like before 10:30, before 11.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They stopped serving the Hasbron, which means somebody woke up early to snitch. And now we're like, now we're playing with an idea that's like, I know I'm so far away from. This is my hope. I'm so far away from what anybody else is going to say about this thing. Because you're right, comedians are talking about it, the news is talking about it, social media's talking about it. And there are a lot of takes.

[A]

It's been an interesting experiment in storytelling The Luigi story. Because we got a story in mind, and some of us tried to fill in the blanks, and then we got the real story. And it's like, well, how do you feel about it now? And, like, one of the big details for me, I was immediately like, okay, what's the motive? Okay, he's young. He's not a father. Either his mom or his wife died, and he's so hurt of what happened to them that he's like, fuck everything. I need revenge. And that makes him seem, like, big. That he's doing this for somebody else, for a mom or for my beloved wife. And then it's like, okay, now he's doing it for himself. Okay? Cause he's personally. And it's like, that's a little bit different on the moral level, right? Like action, like, you know, doing something for somebody else versus doing it for yourself, you know, still. I'm still rocking with him, but it was. It was. That was a bit like. And motive really goes a long way in defining how we feel about the character.

[B]

Well, I think this is my think. I think if you are in any way in support of. Of what he did, his general motive shouldn't matter that much to me, because it's like, I'll put it to you like this. And maybe this will be a worthless analogy that you definitely need to cut.

[A]

Definitely leaving it in.

[B]

Now, when it comes to something like women's reproductive rights, right. In the argument for women to have autonomy, what we usually do is take it to the umpteenth most tragic level to try to twist, at least rhetorically, to try to twist the person who is against women having autonomy over their bodies into. Are you literally so stuck in your heels that you don't care about when this happens? So they talk about rape and incest, right? And it's like, you don't believe in abortion, even in the cases of rape and incest. But my thing is, if we are arguing for women to have autonomy over their bodies, personally, for me, and one of the reasons that I don't need those arguments is that it doesn't even have to get to that level. I don't need the saddest story. I don't need the most extenuating circumstances. I hear a woman say she should have autonomy over her body, and then I say, oh, yeah, I agree. You don't need the umpteenth. Umpteenth. Umpteenth, um. Tink. So for me, with Luigi, it's like, he doesn't need to have an Oscar Worthy story. If a person is in support of what he did or they get why he did it, then even if he did it for a frivolous reason, like he was like, I was at the ER for two hours. It won't change who Brian Thompson was to his company and what they do.

[A]

For sure. For sure. I mean, yes, I also think about the villain or victim or hero origin story that we get, you know, movies, comic books, whatever. And there's going to be something in there that amps it up. And, you know, we love Batman because he's doing all this because he witnessed his parents get murdered in front of him and that ennobles him. And, you know, that's not the origin story of all of them, but, like, that makes him, like forever, like, cool and have moral power and these sort of things. And, you know, you take that away and like, oh, I mean, yeah.

[B]

But I think that, you know, as humans, we are imperfect representatives of stories. So as bad as what Brian Thompson did as CEO of the company and everything horrible that Unite Health does, he is an imperfect representative because he doesn't look like the devil. It would be more fitting if he looked like the devil in his picture for everything that the company did, for everything that he okayed. It'd be great if he had some fangs and some horns, but he just looks like a person. And then you look at Luigi and it would be great if he had to. Your point a little bit more of like a Batman origin story where he's like, guys, I wish I could do it the right, legal, moral way, but I just can't take it anymore. And. But we are the imperfect representatives of our stories, you know, and of the stories. People that want. The stories that people want for us. And so it doesn't shock me. It didn't really surprise me that the overall story of how these two people came together was a little less than stellar. Do you know what I mean? When you look at even athletes, and sometimes there could be a lot more 30 for 30s if more athletes were interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that there are some people you talk to and you could sit them down, you could sit them where you're sitting me right now, and you could talk to them about their whole career. And it will boil down to, I was big, and so I pushed a lot of people in football and I made a lot of money and then I quit. Cause my knees hurt. And that's not. Yeah, that doesn't get us much. It's like, well, why aren't. Why aren't you as rich as Michael Jordan. I didn't make a shoe. Yeah, well, how'd you not lose all your money? Oh, I gave some of it to my CPA and he invested a little bit of it on the side.

[A]

There's some athletes are a good conversation. I think in a lot of situations there is a physical intelligence that they have that allows them to be genius on the court or whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That doesn't necessarily translate to a verbal dexterity.

[B]

That is the nicest way to put it I've ever heard in my life.

[A]

Well, I think that it's real that there are different kinds of intelligence.

[B]

There certainly are.

[A]

And I don't want to say I'm smarter than X athlete because I talk better than him. Yeah, I do. But also he moves in ways that I can't conceive of. So that's an intelligence that he has over me and I gotta respect that as well. And there's other areas of intelligence that he might have superior to me or I like. It's more than just who talks better.

[B]

No, for sure it is. I just mean in their own telling of their story, not even verbally in the telling of their story, where you could literally get a documentary's worth of characters together and the story will still be boring. Cause like, what do you like doing playing football?

[A]

You know, to that point I ran into Eddie George once in the airport. Lovely guy. We met at a bar by chance and had a great hour long conversation. One of those airplane, airport sort of things. And never forget, he said, you know, in a football game you're really only playing for like five minutes of like actual playing. Cause the plays only last a couple of seconds. Now he's like, this is the hardest five minutes you could imagine, like physically in your life. But like, and it kind of, to your point of like the, to the audience, it looks like they're out there for like two some hours. But like, he's like, really, we gotta get through five minutes. Yeah, that's all we're doing.

[B]

Yeah, I mean that's, that's what, that's what most of the biggest things come down to, you know, like, like I remember there was some interview with Bezos where he was like, you want to know what I do? I get, I get paid. And this is like, even before he reached the heights of his wealth, he was like, I get paid lots and lots of money. And maybe he didn't say lots and lots of money, but I get paid to make four decisions a year. I just have to be right all four Times, because they're very big decisions. And maybe he didn't even say four. Maybe he said two. And it's like, yeah, that is what most of the biggest moments of life are. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's one of the reasons why you look at something like labor, and you're like, wow, this woman went into labor, and then she had the baby, and it took nine hours. That's harder than so many things because, like, when you think about this man himself said a football game. Upper echelon of, like, athlete, five minutes. Gi. Mean, push, push, push. Off and on. Nine hours.

[A]

Who's on your. Who's. Who's your top three? 4. Mount Rushmore of comedians of Today Working now.

[B]

Today working now. Okay.

[A]

And it could be five. I don't. I don't want you to press, to leave somebody out or just three. But, like.

[B]

Well, I'm trying, but the thing that's tough is I'm trying to think of people who. Maybe I'm making it more complicated than it is. I would say. See, I think. I think that. Give me a second, because I feel like you've asked me this once before. I'm trying not to have the identical answer. That's why I'm taking so long, because I'm like, I swear, we talked about this. Maybe it was on Mic Off Mike, and I gave you an answer. I'm trying to be more interesting than I was okay. A year ago. Let's see. I think that are working right now that aren't your. Your typical answer. I think Ronny Chang, I think. Let's see. Trying to think of whose specials I've also watched this year that I was like, oh, I really love what they're doing. Maria Bamford is phenomenal.

[A]

Let's see.

[B]

Do you know Eagle Wit?

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

Yeah, he's here. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

So, yeah, Eagle Wit. And let's see. I haven't seen. I haven't seen her stuff in a little bit, but Zainab.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was on the show for sure. So she's great.

[B]

Yeah. I think. I think that's who I'm, like, seeing right now, being like, wow, you know, I.

[A]

We listened to Ronny Cheng's first big one. Did Asian American Comedian Destroy or Asian comedian.

[B]

Yeah. Destroys America.

[A]

Yeah, like, 10 times with my kids. It was such a great visual story, the whole thing. I'm like, I see it as a movie. And he's late to get to his wedding, and he's at the Daily show office, and he's running, and the black guy is holding the train. And I'm like, is a story. I see it. And it was such a brilliant hour. I was like, oh, this guy's fucking amazing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, he's incredible, man. I think. And it's also. I find that, to me, the best comedians are also going back to that awareness thing. Just very smart people in general, and they have observations that never become jokes but are, like, incredibly poignant. And I think that that's the. That's. To me, the pleasure and the benefit of having so many comedians in my life is that there are things that are never gonna become bits. They're never, like. They're not looking for a laugh or anything, but just the way they see the world. You're like, oh, actually, yeah, yeah. Wow, that's. That's really. That's really good. Or. That's so interesting. You know what I mean? And it helps shape the way that you think, the way that we all do, like, by being friends, you shape the way someone thinks, whether you realize it or not, through what you say, through the takes that you give. And you're not trying to do that. You're just being yourself. But if you want to be shaped into a certain thing, surrounding yourself with the people who do that the best is, like, a phenomenal way to get there.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's the hope.

[A]

That's the hope.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You try anything else you want to talk about?

[B]

Okay. You. You saw the guy who left his family and went to Europe. Do you. Did you hear about that guy?

[A]

Which one?

[B]

There was a dude who, basically, he left his family and, like, faked his death and moved to Europe, and. And then he just came back and got arrested.

[A]

Oh, I did see that today.

[B]

And I'm like, why'd you come back? I was in my head. I was like, what makes you. What makes you leave your family, fake your death, and move to Europe is already a mystery to me. But what makes you come back, man? Bro, if I ever leave my family, fake my death, and move to Europe, that's the height of delusion. Thinking you can come back. That's so crazy.

[A]

You told us you were dead. What are you doing here?

[B]

Especially, you think you go, it's a Wonderful Life in Wisconsin. That's crazy that this dude shows backup just to get arrested, too. You weren't in jail in Europe. You had a regular life that wasn't in jail, and now you went ahead and got yourself arrested back at home.

[A]

And you're in Jail.

[B]

And you're in jail now in America. Not a European jail. I think their jails are nicer for sure. Yeah. Because they like care about people or whatever they do. Yeah. They like care about rehabilitation and all that stuff.

[A]

Somebody, I forget who it was. It might have been Paul Krugman or Thomas Frank in one of their books about politics. They were breaking down that the reason why Europe is able to have these sort of socialized situations is because they all look the same. Sure. And it's not like my money is going to help take care of this black or brown person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like they don't have that conversation. And I know that they have brown immigrants in some of those countries. But the national conversation, political is not based around I don't want to give my hard earned money to lazy people who don't look like me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And that is the core of the welfare socialized program conversation in America. I work hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't want to give my money to this lazy poor black and brown people. And like why we can't have nice things.

[B]

It's also wild too because those same people who think that way across the board. Right. Because I've even, I've even heard black people say things about Latin people that were, that were coming over. I mean, just. You would think that the civil rights movement wasn't for everybody.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The way that I've heard some people talk. Anyway, the, the thing that's so wild to me is that because it's so much about money and class in America that the rhetoric that the middle class has towards the poor is exactly the rhetoric that billionaires have towards the middle class. It's like, so let's say you make. And this is, we're talking high end here, but let's say you're middle class and you make 90k a year. And depending on where you are in America, that's middle class. I know it isn't everywhere, but 90k. Right. Person on the street asked you for a dollar. You know, they've now asked you for. We're not even talking about net worth. We're talking about 1 90,000 if of what you're gonna make that year. And you're like, I'm not giving the. No. Now you look at the billionaire who owns your company and now this person you want to raise, you're asking for 1 90,000 of what they definitely have. They have it, by the way. And they're like, I'm supposed to pay you extra for doing your job.

[A]

I was thinking Jamie Whatever salary they're willing to pay you, they profit more from you being there and doing that job than whatever they're paid.

[B]

Yeah. Nothing will bring you to that realization faster than being a cashier. Like, when I was a cashier, I was like, oh, okay, you don't have my extra 25 cents an hour. But I am scanning all these items.

[A]

I mean, even Drake, $400 million deal. That means he brings in more than $400 million to that company.

[B]

That means he probably brings in 4 billion.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, sure, Jimmy, you really.

[B]

The fact that you made it back in, like, didn't he make it back in a year and a half?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

But that's why I'm saying I'm like. I'm like to give. To give that man $400 million and then for him to already be renegotiating the early part of this year. I don't know when he signed it in 2022 or whatever. But, like, that means you made it back in maybe less than two years.

[A]

The number one streaming artist every month.

[B]

So whatever you.

[A]

Whatever you get from tds, you are generating more than that for them.

[B]

I'd like to think so. That's the. That's the hope.

[A]

That's what. That's what. But that. That always bugs me out, and I'm like, wow, you pay me that and I'm. I'm worth more than that to you?

[B]

Well, it's also. It depends on how good someone is at business, because I've. I've been bad at business before. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

You're not a businessman. You're an artist.

[B]

Thanks, but no, but I'm saying, like, that is true of when you see people have passion projects, and those passion projects never get finished, and it's because they don't have the wherewithal to look at the overall completion of the project as, like, number one. And they want to bring everybody on, and they want to, like. I'm not even saying it's bad to pay people what they're worth, but I think that sometimes they bring people on in the hope that by paying this much, I'm going to get this much product out of it. And I think that there's a. There's a middle ground between the amount of cold business that it takes to pay someone 1/10 down to 1/100 of what they're worth to the point where business people make, which is, I can't bankrupt myself, so I have to pay you this or else we're all gonna be out of a job. I think the truth lies in between those two things. You know, I think that business. I mean, Warren Buffett said if people knew how much money you can make doing good business, nobody would be crooked. And so, you know, and you can make a lot of money being crooked. You just can't make it for long. Whether you cannibalize your own business or whether somebody marks you down on the street. You know, I mean, like, it's. It's only gonna last so long. You know, you can.

[A]

You can make money crooked, but you can't make it.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's.

[A]

It's like a movie tagline.

[B]

Yeah. It just doesn't. It. Yeah. It doesn't end well.

[A]

He made crooked bunny, but he didn't make it for long. Nobody gets away.

[B]

Yeah. In the voice of that guy in.

[A]

A World Johnson store.

[B]

No, not my story. Please, not my story.

[A]

You seem like the guy who's too scared to commit crime.

[B]

I am jaywalking.

[A]

No, sir.

[B]

Honestly, One of my favorite things with the story, like, you know, I talk about it more in depth on stage. But it did crack me up that the dude shoots the CEO. People see it on the news. And then there was a. You know how they've been doing those Timothee Chalamet lookalike contests, whatever.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And there was a bunch of people went to Yulia Square lookalike shooter, Washington Square Park. Washington Square park look alike. The shooter. This is how you could tell white people and black people move different. Because as a black person, I've never watched the news. I mean, dressed up and they gone outside purposely looking like the suspect, like a national suspect. I've never been like, is it a red durag? Let me go ahead, tie the thing up. That's. That felt the wildest to me. When I saw that, I was like, ah, ah, ah.

[A]

That was wild. But how about all the videos of women who want to sleep with them and men who want to sleep with them?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If we thought Ted Bundy got letters, cuz. Yeah, that's. That's. That's so, so wild to me. I'm taken aback with how you could probably have caught it in the polling. I bet you probably. If there's any crossover between someone who worked in Democratic campaigns and someone who's tracking the news right now based on policy, you probably could have clocked how popular this guy would be.

[A]

Well, I mean, it's shit, man. If we had realized all you had to do Was say universal healthcare. You be elected, you don't have to be a Diet Republican. Just say fucking that. Like, Jesus Christ. I mean, which of the Trump cabinet nominees is the fucking worst to you? Which is the one that you're like, you fucking idiot.

[B]

I think what will be the most ineffective for him or I think who will be the most ineffective for Trump or for the people or for whatever is gonna be Pete Hegseth? Because I think even Cash could turn the FBI into a surveillant weaponized entity against Trump's enemies. I think with what Cash said he wants to do with the building and with the people is possible. He could tell everybody, go home. He could do that thing. Then he could also be like, hey, you, I want you to look into the Attorney General. I want you to look into whoever. I want you to look into the former director of the FBI. Like, he could do those things. Whereas with Pete Hegseth, it's like, I don't think people realize even the people who want him. Like, let's say you are a MAGA Republican who likes Pete because you saw him on Fox and you're like, I think he would be good too. I don't think people realize how much experience is needed to head up something that employs millions of people that is a true facet of America's strong arm to the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that you cannot begin. It's actually one of my deepest frustrations because it's like you cannot begin to describe how out of his depth he would be. And I think that I'm not even. I'm not even. I think this all the time, but I'm not even one of those people that's like super militant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But one thing that deeply bothers me, because it's a flaw in logic that just has a sort of like racial and gender basis, is that anytime there's a horrifically unqualified white guy, he will figure it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anytime there is an overqualified person of color or woman, then they were given it. And it's like a DI hire. It's affirmative action. They don't deserve it. And it's like that logic, it just ceases to make any sense when you just put up resumes. If you took names off and you put up resumes.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

You would just see. It's like he hosted a TV show sometimes drunk. Yeah, I guess. I guess so. I guess that could work. Do you. I mean, it's not even a dig at Pete as a person. It's like you have all of these allegations against you from different women. You have a history of alcohol abuse, and I'm not even saying that as if I'm better than somebody. Alcoholism is an addiction, but you struggle with this thing, and it did impede your work before, and it impedes your work outside of tv. When you were the head of a. What was it? Nonprofit or whatever, they had to let you go. You mismanaged funds, according to them. So it's like after a while, it starts to be like, I don't even know what we're fighting for here. Like, even Trump was on. Trump went on some interview, and he was like. They asked him about Pete Hegsett. They asked him if he was concerned about the drinking, all the allegations and stuff, and he said, no, everyone can do some things a little bit less. He said, he's gonna drink less. You know, I could eat a little bit less. And I was like, in what world did Trump. Trump wants Pete so bad that he is like, I could lay off hamburgers. That's a. That's such an insane.

[A]

Well, like, you know, I could eat a little less. He could drink less. Those two things are not in the same ballpark.

[B]

Not only are they not the same, the nightmare of it is that there's not a respect for.

[A]

Just.

[B]

Just a respect for expertise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There are plenty of people who like Trump and also have managed military personnel before.

[A]

Well, I think they dislike what we would consider experience. We would consider traditional sort of building blocks. I wonder if you think that this administration will be a shit show and America will fall apart.

[B]

I mean, I. I don't know. This is one of the hardest ones to tell, honestly, because it's like, there's something to be said for how these institutions function almost on their own. Right. There was that whole running joke when Trump was president the first time and when Biden was showing signs of not being fully with it every day, that the country kind of runs itself as long as you don't mess with it too much. But we are getting into territory where the person who would normally. Those generals who didn't listen to Trump the first time and, like, you know, those people are supposedly not gonna be there this time. And there's. There's a whole story. You ever hear that story about Nixon being drunk and wanting to nuke? There's this whole thing about, like, Nixon was apparently a heavy drinker, and I don't know the full validity of the story. I've heard it several times, so I imagine could potentially be true. But apparently there was one night that Nixon was drunk and he was talking to one of his generals, and he was like, you should nuke. I can't remember where it was, but he basically said, you should nuke another country tonight. And then he was like, yes, Mr. President. And then Nixon went to bed and then woke up and didn't remember. And it's like, yeah, all these people are human. And not just human, horrifically flawed. So, yeah, the country's actually had touch and go moments with leaders before and stuff like that. This one could be so intentional and then unintentionally disastrous that I think we could be in a place that is hard to come back from. But only I'm not trying to put everything on Democrats. But if Democrats are supposedly the opposing party to all this stuff, then why is it that every election cycle and every administration, they're just slowly getting pushed off a cliff? It's like the pushback has to be so much more effective than whatever damage you say was done during the last administration.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so there's an aspect of, you know that thing from school when you were a kid of like, whoever smelt it, dealt it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. That, in essence, is how American politics work. Because each party scapegoats the other party for the things that they need that they know the country actually needs. And then they do their own thing, and then they act like they're picking up the pieces and cleaning up the mess of the last one. But it's like, whoever smelt it, dealt it. And then the reply is always, whoever denied it, supplied it. And that's what they do every cycle. Whenever we take turns, they're like, well, the immigration crisis is your fault. Actually, it's your fault. Actually, it's your fault. But then when you see the kids in cages, right? And we freak out and we're like, trump is the devil. And then you see people being like, but those are Obama's cages. And then you see people being like, did Biden get rid of the cages or did we just stop showing them? And so you see policy where, okay, we have this immigration issue, right? Whether you're a Democrat or Republican as a president, you're gonna have to address it. And some people are gonna address it very harshly. Some people are just gonna try to get the paperwork rolling faster, whatever that is. And I think they're both scapegoating each other. There's a deficit. When was the last time you heard Republicans talk about the deficit? I don't think they should anymore, and they don't care about it anymore because They've realized that people don't care about it. We can do the tax cuts. We can do. But they used to scapegoat that thing. They used to actually be some of the biggest spenders through rolling back tax policy and trying to get tax cuts. But then they would bring up the tax deficit. They would bring up the deficit whenever Democrats were in power. So that's kind of the issue. It's like we're just playing back and forth. The only problem is back and forth is now off the cliff both ways, you know.

[A]

Thanks so much to Josh for a great interview. And thanks to you for listening. Toure's show gives you fuel to power your dreams because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into a life you never imagined. You can make your dreams a reality. And maybe somehow this show can help. Torre's show is written by me, Torre, and produced by Ashley Hobbs. Our editor is Ryan Woodhull, our booker is Ray Holiday, and our distributor is DCP Entertainment. And we will be back next week with another amazing guest because the man can't shut us down.