Toure (2:51)

The other times I asked you, you were like.

Mark Lamont Hill (2:55)

This is better than her. This is okay. I'm feeling. I'm actually feeling good. I'm feeling energized these days. Yeah, yeah. Lots going on, but I'm feeling good.

Toure (3:03)

What happened?

Mark Lamont Hill (3:05)

Are you talking about the Sixers marvelous season, or are we talking about the.

Toure (3:09)

I gotta give you props that many times in our friendship we have jawed about sports, and I have had a city that I could stand behind, and you did not. Or you. Right now, you are crushing the game in multiple sports.

Mark Lamont Hill (3:24)

I can't really say I'm feeling good to be in Philadelphia right now, man. I'm gonna talk my shit as long as I can, because, you know, it's subject to change.

Toure (3:30)

When we were like, trust the process with the Sixers, I believed. I thought it was bullshit, and it's really happening.

Mark Lamont Hill (3:37)

A little bit of it was bullshit. You know, some of it's just luck. You lose enough, you'll get some good picks. We swung and missed on enough.

Toure (3:42)

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The Knicks have been consistently horrible for years and years.

Mark Lamont Hill (3:47)

Yeah, but y' all tried to be competitive. That's where you went wrong. We just decided to go full trash.

Toure (3:53)

Well, yes, when you go full trash, you can maybe. No. So it's been, what, four days since cnn?

Mark Lamont Hill (4:00)

Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. Yeah, about that. Four, five days. Yeah.

Toure (4:03)

What happened?

Mark Lamont Hill (4:07)

I gave a speech at the United nations on Wednesday, and the next day, CNN contacted me to let me know that they didn't feel that the speech was in line with the values. We parted ways, and since then, it's just been a blur.

Toure (4:29)

Your speech was not incendiary.

Mark Lamont Hill (4:32)

I didn't think so.

Toure (4:33)

It was very calm. I didn't hear you say anything. Certainly nothing anti Israel. Right. I mean, you laid.

Mark Lamont Hill (4:41)

Out. It's critical of Israel.

Toure (4:42)

Yeah. You laid out the. The. Some of the atrocities that they have committed, but not in an inflammatory way. These are factual things that have happened.

Mark Lamont Hill (4:50)

Yeah, that's my sense.

Toure (4:51)

I mean, was it the phrase from the river to the sea that was the triggering problem that became the headline?

Mark Lamont Hill (5:00)

You know, it's hard for me to say what the actual trigger was. There are people who. Sure. Genuinely felt that that phrase was problematic. I'm sure there's people who felt that way, but I think the people who initially responded to the speech were not specifically responding to that phrase as much as they were responding to the speech being severely or significantly anyway, critical of the state of Israel and Israeli policy. And I think the river to the Sea became an opportunity to make a certain kind of claim about the speech that I think really wasn't in line with what the speech actually said. Also, I think the phrase river to the Sea itself is Something that has been taken and twisted out of context. People are saying, oh, my God, you used the Hamas phrase. You know, river to the Sea is not a Hamas phrase. Have they ever used it? Of course, but so have many other groups. Israeli groups have used it, Palestinian groups have used it. Moderates have used it.

Toure (6:01)

I'm not nearly as much in the space as you are. You've been to Palestine many times. You are deeply educated and on the ground in this situation. So just for folks who are not fully invested in it, is. If you were in that world, would from the river to the Sea have a particular. Like, would, you know, like, ooh, that's a code. Or is it not that it's a.

Mark Lamont Hill (6:25)

It's a. It. It certainly means the entire area. I mean, basically, it's like if I were to claim that I wanted all of America to be free coast to coast, Right. And imagine if only part of America were free. Right. Imagine if, like, from California to Texas was a whole different entity.

Toure (6:43)

Sure.

Mark Lamont Hill (6:43)

So if I say from coast to coast, that means I'm talking about not just the part that we count, but also the part that's not being counted. I'm oversimplifying it a bit, but the point is that when people. The state of Israel is its own entity, and then there's the west bank, you know, where many Palestinians live under occupation. That's, you know, that's where, you know, if someone says they live in Ramallah, they don't live in Israel, they live in Palestine, occupied Palestinian territory. So when people say river to the sea, they're saying both the area that's actual Israel proper, and they're also talking about the occupied territories, and they're also talking about Gaza, the Gaza Strip.

Toure (7:17)

Okay?

Mark Lamont Hill (7:18)

So that's what river to the Sea means, historically, because there have been battles over the land. When people say river to the sea, they mean all of it. So many Zionists in the early part of 20th century, they wanted Israel to be river to the sea. Netanyahu's party, the Likud Party, their initial platform slogan was river to the Sea.

Toure (7:41)

And they mean to crush Palestine, they.

Mark Lamont Hill (7:45)

Mean that Israel should encompass that entire.

Toure (7:47)

Area, including what is Palestine?

Mark Lamont Hill (7:49)

Including what is the occupied Palestinian territory. There's no.

Toure (7:52)

So when Hamas says it, is it. When you say it. When you say it, not Hamas. When you say it, do you mean to hurt or take away Israel in some way?

Mark Lamont Hill (8:04)

No, what I mean is that every part of historic Palestine, both the country Israel now and the occupied territories, and Gaza, I'm saying all of it. When I say that I want freedom or justice or democracy, I'm saying I want it for the entire region. I want it in Israel, I want it in Palestine, I want it for the refugees, I want it for anybody, everybody. There's a concern from some people though, that when you say free Palestine from river to the sea, that that means suddenly that we're going to just destroy or dismantle Israel or get rid of Israelis or get rid of Jewish brothers and sisters. And that's not.

Toure (8:36)

It seems like in America saying something pro Palestinian is received as anti Israeli.

Mark Lamont Hill (8:43)

Yeah, and it's a really weird zero sum game that we've established. And part of it is born out of a history of trauma. Because of the horrors of the, you know, the pogroms of, you know, the 1800s, the 1890s, in particular because of the atrocities of the Holocaust, there is a legitimate fear that we don't want this to ever happen again. Right, Absolutely. And so people. And the response from say, 1892 until now has been that we'll build a Jewish state. And if we have a Jewish state that then a state for Jews run by Jews with Jewish interest at heart that we get, that's our best method of protecting ourselves. This is the Jewish argument, right? Protecting ourselves from further atrocities. I understand the spirit of that argument. Not just the spirit of the argument. I understand and accept the argument that we have to protect one another, we have to protect ourselves. Right. The problem is, at the same time that that's happening, we're ignoring the ways that that particular state is not allowing or offering equal rights and justice for everyone else in the state. So if you live In Israel, Israel's 80% Jewish. It's 20% what they call Arab, you know, what I would call Palestinian, it's 20% Arab. So if you live in a Jewish state and you're not Jewish, do you have equal rights?

Toure (10:08)

No.

Mark Lamont Hill (10:09)

Right? They would say yes, but they would say they have the same citizenship rights, they have the same passport, same id, but there are laws on the books, there are practices on the books that actually are discriminatory. Not facially, they're facially neutral. But they have a detrimental impact to Palestinians. They have a detrimental impact to Arabs.

Toure (10:24)

Like what?

Mark Lamont Hill (10:26)

Admissions committees, for example.

Toure (10:28)

What does that mean?

Mark Lamont Hill (10:29)

Admissions committees are. There are neighborhoods or settlements where, if you attempt to live there, you're allowed to have an admissions committee or an admissions board that that determines whether or not you can live in the neighborhood. And the criterion is sustaining the social and cultural fabric of the neighborhood.

Toure (10:45)

Wait, wait, wait, wait. There's a group of people who get to say, who gets to move in. Yeah, like locals who get to say, you, Mark, can move in, you, Jimmy, cannot.

Mark Lamont Hill (10:56)

Right. Based on the social, cultural fabric of the neighborhood.

Toure (10:59)

And I assume you're leading toward this functions to keep the Arabs or Palestinians out potentially.

Mark Lamont Hill (11:06)

It could also keep out Ethiopian Jews. Of course, it could also keep out Mizrahi Jews, someone from Yemen, for example. It could keep out, it could keep out lots of folk. But the point here is that it's not a fair democratic law. And those. Or family reunification. Right. The idea that if you are a Jewish person living in Tel Aviv and you want to bring your spouse or partner from somewhere else because of reunification, they can come in, get citizenship, live with you, et cetera, juxtapose that to an Arab living in Nazareth, Israeli citizenship, et cetera, who wants to move someone in from the west bank or wants to move someone in. They don't get the same access, they don't get the same reunification practices. So these are the types of things that are, on their face, discriminatory. So yes, Arabs in Israel have more rights and freedoms and opportunities than say an Arab in Gaza. That's not disputable, I wouldn't dispute that. But that doesn't mean that they have equal rights. And so there's those rights inside of Israel. Then you have people in the west bank who don't have IDs, who aren't part of Israeli state, who don't have access to freedom of movement, who have to, who live behind walls and checkpoints. That's a whole different set of things that freedoms that we have to figure out for them. And then you have Gaza, which yes, is run by Hamas, that's not in dispute, but it's also surrounded, it's bordered by land, air and sea, by Israel. So they've never had a free moment of self determination. That's not to defend Hamas. That's not to say that Hamas is the right organization or the right choice, but they're a democratically elected group that is in a really interesting and complicated circumstance. Again, I'm critical of Hamas. I'm not a supporter of Hamas and I have many strong disagreements with Hamas on political grounds, on ethical grounds, on moral grounds. And also I don't believe in an Islamic state. Right. It's not like I don't just. I think religious states themselves are very complicated and make it hard to have democratic. So I believe in secular democracy for everybody. So when I say all that to say When I said river to the sea, I'm saying, well, yeah, in Gaza we need justice, in the west bank we need justice, in Israel we need justice, we need a solution here. But what people hear is, particularly if you're a one state solution person like myself, what they say is, well, if everybody lived in one, if it's a secular democracy, then it's not a Jewish state. And because a Jewish state is the one thing that protects Jewish people from outside atrocities, from anti Semitism and all these other very legitimate things, then to call for a one state solution, to call for secular democracy, is to call for the destruction of the Jewish state. And to call for the destruction of the Jewish state is to make Jews vulnerable. And to make Jews vulnerable is anti Semitic. So that's the kind of syllogism you have to follow in order to arrive at the place. And it's not that I don't understand their argument, I just don't share it. I believe that if you have a two state solution or you have a place, any place where a group of people are captive and unfree and subject to anti democratic laws, any situation like that, there will never be security for Jewish brothers and sisters. Right? The precondition for peace is justice and that's not a threat. I'm not saying that, this isn't me making a normative claim here. All I'm saying is that the best way to get peace is for everyone to have freedom. And for me that's a one state where everybody gets a vote, everybody has equal rights, everybody has self determination, everybody has dignity. I want dignity for Jewish people. I want dignity for Muslims, I want dignity for Christians. I want dignity for everybody. I want self determination and peace for everybody.

Toure (14:34)

How long were you at cnn?

Mark Lamont Hill (14:37)

Four years maybe.

Toure (14:38)

And you were a significant player there. They put you on a lot. You had big viral moments, you had some great moments of. I mean, you have been able to argue your points as you want, like just to be real, you.

Mark Lamont Hill (14:55)

Yeah, and it's a blessing.

Toure (14:56)

It's, it's strange that this moment off camera has this effect. I mean, is it not chilling to get fired for something that you didn't.

Mark Lamont Hill (15:07)

On your day off? Right.

Toure (15:08)

On your day off. Right. Not in the workplace, but something you said somewhere else.

Mark Lamont Hill (15:11)

Yeah, it's, you know, there's no days off in this business. Right. I mean, no matter where you, no matter where you're operating from in a 24 hour news cycle and a social media cycle and an iPhone cycle, you have to be aware of who you are at all times and what you're saying at all times. So I don't have an issue with being held accountable for what I say when I'm not on air. Okay? What I have an issue with, where I disagree with, is the assessment itself. I think there was a reactionary assessment that said, wait a minute, he was critical of Israel. It must have been anti Israel. Even the initial headlines, you know, CNN commentator fired over anti Israel comments. I'm like, well, they weren't anti Israel comments. They were comments that were critical of Israel. You know, I'm critical of Israeli policy. I'm critical of American policy. I spent the last month during the Khashoggi affair criticizing not only the way that was handled, but also criticizing the Saudi Arabian government, criticizing Mohammed bin Salman. I am deeply critical of many governments, you know. And so my frustration isn't that they held me accountable for what I said at the UN it's that the particular things that I said at the UN I don't think were particularly troublesome. And I think anyone with any knowledge of the area, anyone with any knowledge of the field, anyone with any knowledge of the context would listen to that and say, okay, I may not like what he said. I may disagree with what he said, or I may strongly agree with what he said, but either way, it was, as you said, there was nothing inflammatory about it. There was certainly nothing anti Semitic about it.

Toure (16:48)

It did not seem anti Semitic to me in intention or anything.

Mark Lamont Hill (16:53)

It's the farthest thing from my mind.

Toure (16:56)

Did you argue back?

Mark Lamont Hill (16:57)

There's no. I mean, it's like when you watch the Wire. One of my favorite things about the Wire is, like, when people are about to get killed. These are G's, man. They just. You know what I mean? Like, even Prop Joe, who would love to talk, when Marlo came up on him, he just, you know, he's like, do what you gonna do. You know what I mean, Stringer, just hurry, you know, just go ahead and get on with it.

Toure (17:16)

So as soon as the call comes.

Mark Lamont Hill (17:19)

You'Re like, well, no, when the call came, I thought they were gonna call and ask me about it, maybe ask me to make a statement or clarify. But once they. Once it was clear that, you know, it was gonna do what it was gonna do, I was like, all right, well, you know, I mean, I'm a professional, you know. And I said, you know, I disagree strongly with your opinion. I mean, with this take. But, you know, I hear you, you know, that's all you can do. I went out, like, they. Like, they Go on the wire, man. I was like, you know, you know, get on with it.

Toure (17:46)

Get on with it.

Mark Lamont Hill (17:47)

No disrespect, just, you know, I just. I mean, it's what it is. No, no. No one calls you to fire you and can be talked out of it. Right?

Toure (17:53)

So, sure. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. I mean, you wonder if there was a conversation of like, you know, hey, where are you on this? Because this is concerning, or if it's just like, we have come with the 18 to end this.

Mark Lamont Hill (18:09)

And I wish they had. I mean, I think if four to eight hours had gone by, maybe cooler heads would have prevailed. I think clarity would have been established. I think it was a hasty decision. I disagree with the decision. And I think history will vindicate the claims that I made. Not just not about. Not in terms of the political content, but even about my intention. I mean, I don't think there's anyone who could watch that speech and really think that I am anti Semitic or that I had any ill intent toward anybody. I want justice. And again, throughout the speech, I talked about reforming Israel's practices. I talked about redrawing borders. If I want to destroy Israel, you don't redraw borders and to destroy it. I talked about political reform in Israel. I said, we need to give full citizenship, full rights to Arab citizens of Israel. Giving full rights to Arab citizens of Israel means that I'm not trying to destroy Israel. I want them to have political reform. I mean, it's nonsensical and frustrating in the moment, but again, I'm trying to look at the bigger picture. And that is, you know, what kind of public dialogues can we have about free speech, about Middle east policy, about critique of various nation states, about what equality and justice looks like? I'm hoping that we can have those conversations. And, you know, I don't want to be a sacrificial lamb. I don't want to be a martyr, but I'm happy to. But I want to be part of the conversation.

Toure (19:28)

And I do want you to be part of the conversation. There's not that many of us who get to be in those positions on CNN and msnbc, by extension.

Mark Lamont Hill (19:40)

Yeah.

Toure (19:41)

And saying things that are of value to the community and speaking for the community. And, you know, it's. Those folks are really important. And I think we as a community look up to those folks and are like, yes, go, Mark. Go, Angela. You know, there's so. I mean, and to Joy, you know, and to lose one of them, you know, over something like this is like, damn, yeah, you know, and it's not. It's not like there's somebody else who's gonna, you know, like, the voice is just lost.

Mark Lamont Hill (20:13)

It's just a lost voice.

Toure (20:14)

And not your voice is lost because you'll continue to speak, but in that important venue.

Mark Lamont Hill (20:17)

No, it's an important venue. It's an important space. It's an important stage. And I valued it. I value it. I thought it was an important one and a necessary one. And I really. I think that was the most disappointing part. It's not about the money. It's not about any of that stuff. It's about being able to advocate for justice and tell the truth in public. That's what I wanted to be able to do, and that's what I always have tried to do.

Toure (20:39)

Did you. Did you enjoy the. The cnn. The CNN exercise? Like, because on MSNBC they'll put us with folks who are in agreement generally.

Mark Lamont Hill (20:51)

Yeah, right.

Toure (20:51)

And we'll build an idea. CNN is very confrontational. It's a bar fight. They're putting on. Putting you on with a cop. They're putting you on with someone from the right. You're gonna blow your stack. Angela's gonna blow her. Like what? Like, did you enjoy that?

Mark Lamont Hill (21:05)

I did, I did. You know, I enjoy being able to build on ideas, too. And sometimes they would call me and ask me what I think about things, and we would just talk. And that's amazing, too. I love to just be asked what I think about things. But the debates were fun. I'm a debater, you know, and I enjoy debating and I enjoy the debate not for the sake of defeating the person across the table, that that's pointless. Right. No one ever on cable news, in the history of cable news has ever said, you know, you're right, I was wrong. You got that? But modeling for the American public, I hope what civility can look like, what respect can look like, what an intelligent exchange of ideas can look like. But also, you know, we're just beating the shit out of a bad idea in public. It's fun, right? Because now the public can go out and beat the shit out of a bad idea in public. They can explain to their co worker why it's not cool to marvel at how articulate you are at your law firm. Right? They can talk about why you can't use the N word. They can talk about. And then going down the list, because we've modeled something for them and we've empowered them with information and data. And we're also able to speak for folk who don't have access to these spaces. So for me, that's the part of the exercise that I enjoy. Did I enjoy debating Harry Halk? You know? Nah, nobody enjoys debating Harry Halk. But on the whole, 99% of the time, man, I loved it.

Toure (22:26)

I mean, I got a lot of sustenance out of, you know, especially, like, when I would run into folks, you know, especially, like, there was a class of folks I would think of, I do think of as, like, the aunties, like, old enough to be my aunt, right? Old enough to remember when there were very few of us on television at all. Maybe they remember Max Robinson, Carol Simpson. Like, that was their era. And they're like, you know, they give you that look or that touch or they, like, you know, say something that's like, you're doing us proud. And it's like. And MSNBC is a fraction of what CNN is doing, right? You're the wallpaper of America. So I'm sure you got a lot of that just walking around the community.

Mark Lamont Hill (23:07)

That was part of the great joy of it all, you know, being able to have those conversations with, with everyday people who found value not just in the words, but in your very presence in the media. And so, again, it was an honor. And there's other ways to serve and represent, so it's not like it's the end of the road or anything. But, yeah, that was definitely a big part of it for me. This episode is brought to you by selectquote. Life insurance can have a huge impact on our family's future. With Selectquote, getting covered with the right policy for you is simple and affordable. Selectquote's licensed insurance agents will tailor your experience to find a life insurance policy.

Toure (23:54)

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Toure (24:08)

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Mark Lamont Hill (26:54)

I don't know. I mean, I still, you know, I'm still a professor. I'm still a scholar, a researcher at Temple. Yep. Temple University.

Toure (27:01)

You teach how many classes there?

Mark Lamont Hill (27:04)

You know, it depends on the year. But, you know, I'm a full, full professor, endowed chair to professor. So I think I have to teach three a Year. Sometimes I teach more because I want to, but it's. It's a blessing to do that, man. I enjoy it. I still host BET News. I still. Now, we still develop things. I have a production company. We're working on a few film projects. In fact, that's before you came. That's me and my business partner Stacy Muhammad and I were working on. There's so many things going on. You know, I still travel and speak. I write. I'm an author working on a few projects. So, you know, there's no shortage of stuff. I don't necessarily need to replace that. I'm not. You know, that's not even in my mind right now. Right now my mind is just filled with figuring out how I can continue to build and do the work that I've been, you know, trying to build and grow for a very long time. And, you know, of course, there's the bookstore and the cafe in Philadelphia, Uncle Bobby's. Yeah, yeah. So much of that is time consuming as well. So my hands are pretty full and I'm happy.

Toure (28:09)

I mean, yeah, you do a lot of things, and I do a lot of things, and I'm looking at you like, damn, he does a lot of things.

Mark Lamont Hill (28:17)

Yeah.

Toure (28:17)

I mean, on one front of it, you've been really good at moving it around throughout the television universe because you had the HuffPo joint, Huffington Post joint, and then you had the VH1 situation.

Mark Lamont Hill (28:31)

Yeah, yeah.

Toure (28:31)

And you had CNN and BET at the same time.

Mark Lamont Hill (28:35)

Yeah, man, it's been a blessing.

Toure (28:36)

That's crazy.

Mark Lamont Hill (28:37)

It's been. It's been good, man.

Toure (28:38)

I mean, I must give good meeting.

Mark Lamont Hill (28:44)

Right?

Toure (28:44)

I know they're not calling you like, yo, we definitely, like, he got to come in for me, but he goes to the meeting and he crushes the beating.

Mark Lamont Hill (28:49)

I show to the meeting, and I do my best, man. I make a good case, man. I make a good case. So hopefully I can make a good case somewhere else someday.

Toure (28:57)

And you do lots of different things because some of your academic work is over here. In a way, the VH1 show was totally different. HuffPo was stretching. CNN was very political, which lines up with a lot of other things you do. But you can do politics, you could do culture. I mean, you could do all sorts of things.

Mark Lamont Hill (29:16)

That's part of the blessing, man. You know, I've had opportunities to exercise different muscles. You know, HuffPost was probably the space where I had the most range. You know, I would literally interview presidents. I would literally interview, you know, trap stars. You know what I mean? And everything in between.

Toure (29:38)

And you have multiple businesses because you have Uncle Bobby's. Right. You have the Speakers Network.

Mark Lamont Hill (29:43)

Yeah. Speakers Agency, Elite Voices, and then, of course, the Production Company, 193030 Productions. So I feel really good about, you know, again, trying being as diverse as possible and having my foot in different places. It's. Again, it's been. It's been fun. It's been exciting because there are days where I want to sit down and. And talk about, you know, geopolitics, and there's days where I want to talk about this new Meek Mill album in this day, which is crazy, by the way.

Toure (30:09)

Yeah.

Mark Lamont Hill (30:09)

And, you know, and I want to talk about my Sixers, and I want to be able to. You know what I mean? To laugh and. And having Spaces do all of that is important to me.

Toure (30:17)

Yeah.

Mark Lamont Hill (30:18)

Yeah.

Toure (30:18)

I mean, you know, I'm curious because, you know, like you, I do a lot of different things. I know how I do it. But you have multiple different responsibilities that require different amounts of attention on a given day. Right.

Mark Lamont Hill (30:32)

You.

Toure (30:33)

You may. You have a class to teach, but you've taught that before, so you don't have that much preparation for that. But you have to show up in the room.

Mark Lamont Hill (30:40)

Yeah.

Toure (30:40)

But then you have a CNN interview or, you know, or a BET moment that you got to prepare for, and you're working on your book and you're doing some activism thing. So how do you plan your time? Like, what are some of the strategies and tactics, the things you do to plan your time, to make sure I'm taking care of all, nothing is falling behind, or if things fall?

Mark Lamont Hill (31:02)

I can't promise nothing ever falls behind.

Toure (31:03)

I catch it up. But I mean, like, how do you. How do you map all that out? Like, I'm doing all these things. I need to spend an hour knocking off this and two hours dealing with that.

Mark Lamont Hill (31:12)

A lot of it is about scheduling and being really meticulous about scheduling and prioritizing things and being protective of my time, for example, as a writer. And you know this, you're a prolific writer. It's. Writing can be the thing that you do when you've done everything else. You know, like, yeah, I gotta get these groceries. I gotta take these kids here. I gotta do this, gotta do this. But when I get a minute, I'll just finish. And if you do that, won't shit ever get written?

Toure (31:35)

You'll never get it.

Mark Lamont Hill (31:35)

You'll never get it done right. So you have to protect your. I tell people, protect your writing. If you're religious, the way you Protect going to Juma on Friday or church on Sunday, you know what I mean? Whatever your thing is, like, protect that. Protect your writing in the same way. Like, oh, Mark, can we meet at 11? Nah, 11 is my writing hour or my writing two hours or whatever. Cause usually people are like, all right, fine, I'll just write later. No, no, you can't be like, I go to church later, right? Like, if church is at 11, churches at 11, you can't push it back. Right. You know, the church don't wait for you, your computer can't wait for you. So I protect my time in that way and I try and be as regimented as possible. I try to have discipline around that. So I wake up very early in the morning and I.

Toure (32:13)

When do you wake up?

Mark Lamont Hill (32:14)

Well, not very early. Five.

Toure (32:15)

Okay.

Mark Lamont Hill (32:16)

Between five and six. It's early for people who.

Toure (32:18)

You write in the morning?

Mark Lamont Hill (32:20)

I write in the morning, Yeah, I read. You know, the thing that I always do is read in the morning. So I set a very ambitious, like, I mean, we can say where we are, right? So you're sure? Yeah, you're in my apartment here. And that seat on that table right there, those are the books that I had to read from May until now.

Toure (32:37)

The books on the island here.

Mark Lamont Hill (32:38)

Yeah, all those books. Yeah.

Toure (32:39)

This is like what. This is easily 60, 70 books.

Mark Lamont Hill (32:44)

Yeah, more than that, probably 100 and. Yeah, and I've gotten through like maybe 70 of them since May just by. But I leave them there as like a. Like a reminder, you know what I mean? Like I gotta get through those. And ironically, those are all on the Middle East. And the idea is that I have to have a constant reminder what the goal is and what the purpose is. So I keep that there. So I wake up in the morning, I read, I make a morning, I study, I make in the morning, I write, and I get decent writing done in the morning. You know, self care stuff is also crucial for the rest of the day. You know, whether it's therapy, whether it's the gym, whatever it is, you just do it. You know what I'm saying? And then the other thing is I try to reduce the amount of things that I do that other people can do for me. You know what I mean? Because I find my. Because there was a time where I found myself doing a bunch of shit that like anybody could do and I didn't have time to do the thing that only I can do. Like only I can write this book. You know what I mean? Only I can do this speech. Only I Can do X, Y and Z. But there are a lot of people that can fill out this paperwork, you know what I mean? Or answer this email. So I try to minimize that amount of stuff and defer to people and delegate and really try and concentrate on the stuff that only I can do. And I enjoy life more when I'm doing that.

Toure (34:04)

Do you? I mean, like, I know I spend a lot of time planning out, like in a. In an old school Moleskine notebook. Like, so on Monday I'm gonna do this, this and this, and that advances this goal, this goal, this goal, and that goal has to wait till tomorrow, and that goal has to wait till next week. But I know that I'm here, all the goals, and I'm moving toward them. Do you write it out? Do you have it?

Mark Lamont Hill (34:26)

It's all in my brain.

Toure (34:26)

It's all your brain.

Mark Lamont Hill (34:28)

I don't write much. I give speeches. In fact, ironically, the only speech I've probably written and delivered ever in my life was at the UN last week.

Toure (34:35)

Oh, my God, he said some Jay Z shit.

Mark Lamont Hill (34:37)

There's a lesson in that too. The one time I wrote it down, I fucked up and got fired.

Toure (34:40)

So you were giving speeches without notes?

Mark Lamont Hill (34:44)

I've used notes once in my whole life, and that was last week. And that was because it was such a high profile thing. I didn't want it to look like I was freestyling.

Toure (34:51)

Sure.

Mark Lamont Hill (34:52)

You know what I mean? I didn't want it to look like I was freestyling, but yeah, I. Organizing notes, calendars, dates. As I get a little bit older, I try to. Sometimes I have to put reminders on my phone about meetings, but less because of a dysfunction in my memory and more because if I don't want to do something, I find myself almost willfully, you know what I mean, forgetting it.

Toure (35:12)

So I appreciate. That's amazing. I don't remember shit. I'm writing everything down. This is like my.

Mark Lamont Hill (35:19)

You are note taking motherfucker. I'm looking at.

Toure (35:20)

Yeah, I appreciate that. You as young black man, if we can still call each other young, barely that. That you go to therapy and you would talk about it, right? Just the fact of that you do it right. Because there's so many people, I mean, the black community, like, you know, chin up, like therapy some white shit. And you fully understand, like, no, this is necessary to keep everything going.

Mark Lamont Hill (35:48)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's something that. I don't know how transparent I am about it. I mean, it's not a secret, you know, it doesn't come up as often, but it's part of my, my way of functioning in the world. It's, it's. I have gone through periods where I didn't have one and where I didn't have that outlet in that space to process and to grow and to heal. But I'm always better when I have. I actually just started back up with a new one and for the first time, a brother. And it's been, you know, it's, it's helpful. It's helpful. There's no other part of your life, and it's almost cliche now, but there's no other part of your life that you would not seek a professional for if it weren't working well, right? Like, of course, nobody's like, chin up on that broken tibia, fibia, whatever they call it, you know, like, see, I don't know what the shit is called. That's why I need a doctor. You know what I mean? So if, you know, any other part of your body or, you know, or anything is not working, you get a professional. Your car didn't work, you see, you get it fixed, right? You don't just work it out. Just keep driving it. Eventually it'll work itself out. Like, nah, it'll be fine. So, you know, I want to do the same thing with, you know, these other parts of myself. And I think therapy for me is, is, is incredibly helpful. It's incredibly rewarding. And I advise everybody, even when I'm not going because I'm slacking or being trifling, I still advise everybody else to do it because it's just good. It's just a good choice.

Toure (37:16)

What's some of your self talk like? Especially like in the morning.

Mark Lamont Hill (37:23)

A lot of times? Self talk's an interesting question. I don't know if I've ever thought about like, that, but in terms of like, almost like affirmations and motivation and stuff like that.

Toure (37:30)

Well, just, just how you speak to yourself and what you're saying to yourself and, and you know, I know some people, like, some people greet the day like, come on, you can do it, you're good enough. And some people are like, oh, man. And it takes them a while to get up to speed and put on their armor.

Mark Lamont Hill (37:47)

Yeah, no, that ain't me. I'm a light sleeper. I jump up immediately. I'm a morning person, so I jump up. Not only do I jump up, but I jump up, like, ready to go. I'm usually fired up in the morning and I'm thinking about the relationship between the day that I'm about to have and the long term goal that I want to have, right? So I think for me that gets me excited and motivated because I'm like, yo, one day I want to have this. I want to make this film that's just going to be amazing, you know, I mean, I don't care about no Oscars. I ain't going to rate no film like that. But yo, I can't wait to make this film that's going like, be at some film festival.

Toure (38:25)

Is that the actual dream?

Mark Lamont Hill (38:26)

It's one of them, yeah. I want to make really good features, you know, I want to direct and, and produce quality stuff. And so when I wake up in the day, that's one of the things I'm thinking through, you know, so that gets me up to go and it gets me to go into the edit room and look at shit. It makes me go on and shoot more stuff. I mean, like, it literally that end goal of like seeing myself at the Lincoln center, you know, I'm, you know, showing this dope ass film that I don't even know what it is yet. You know what I mean? Getting to there comes. Because whatever I'm about to do that morning and thinking of that makes me get up in the morning and do the shit that I don't want to do that nobody wants to do, right? Like, nobody wants to. I mean, some people like sitting in the edit room, but like there's certain parts of the job that are just painstaking and annoying, but we do it anyway because we have to.

Toure (39:15)

What, what drives you? What do you want?

Mark Lamont Hill (39:21)

There's a couple answers. That's a good question. The I think there's a core. I really love us. I love black people, you know, and I really do dream about freedom and thicker forms of freedom constantly. You know, like, what does that look like? What does it mean to make, you know, the world safer or more democratic or, you know, more equitable, whatever the thing is. And that, and that drives me. That literally like drives me like I'm energized by it. But that becomes such a safe and PC answer. I mean, I think there's parts of me that are also driven by competition. Not competition in the sense of like, I want to outdo Terray or I want to outdo Don Lemon or I want to outdo like people in my field. I'm not competitive in that way. I'm not, I'm not competitive in a careerist kind of way. Like, I don't want anybody else to lose. I don't I want everybody to win. But I'm competitive in the sense of, like, I think about what people think I can't do, and I want to do more of it, and I want to do it better than people thought I could. I want to surprise people. And some of that, I'm sure, comes from a place of insecurity and a place of constantly trying to prove somebody wrong. You know, I think what Michael Jordan and how Michael Jordan would actually lie. You know what I mean? He would. Like, when he crossed over, my man in Utah Jazz in Game six, Byron Russell, he was. He told the media, like, you know, before the game, he said, like, I couldn't guard him. Right? But it was like, that was mental for him. Like, he would. Everyone knew he was the greatest player in the world. So it was no longer, like, yo, I gotta prove to Dominique I'm better. Oh, I got Cook, Magic, and Larry Bird. Like, they all. You got it, Mike. You the shit, right? You the best ever. So there was long. So he would make imaginary challenges and have imaginary opponents just to get himself wired up, you know, fired up. You know what I mean? Yeah. Shaq did the same thing when he said Dave Robinson refused to sign. Take a picture with him in high school or sign his own, whatever. And it was like, later on, Shaq was, yeah, I made that shit up. I just need to get hyped for the game to beat Dave Robinson. But you start to convince yourself that. So part of it is, like, really trying to defeat these narratives of people who say, I can't do this, or who don't think I'll be able to be successful. And part of it, I think deep down, is that I'm also imagining opposition and imagining dissent and imagining disagreement with people who aren't even there. And some of it is to get hype on some Michael Jordan shit. And some of it is probably just a deep insecurity that I'm not sure I'm good enough.

Toure (41:50)

Really?

Mark Lamont Hill (41:50)

Oh, yeah, of course.

Toure (41:51)

After all this time.

Mark Lamont Hill (41:52)

Yeah, man.

Toure (41:53)

I mean, you've had so much affirmation, so many nice things have happened to you, so many jobs, so much love.

Mark Lamont Hill (42:00)

And, like, still, most insecurity doesn't. In my. In my experience, doesn't come from. It's not empirical. Right? I mean, like. Like, you can't feed it enough. I mean, how many. You've been this business a long time. How many models do you know who are insecure about how they look or how many. Do you know what I mean? Like. Like. Like, it's it's fully beautiful. People are walking around this world like, yo, what's wrong with me? Maybe they'll notice this nostril is just, you know, just a speck higher than the other one. You know what I mean? And it's like there's nothing you can do. So you're feeding it, but it doesn't actually satiate anything. It's like when your eye itches and you keep scratching it, rubbing it. You can do that shit all day.

Toure (42:43)

Yes.

Mark Lamont Hill (42:44)

Shit's still gonna itch, you know? And that's why, you know. So I try. I try to keep that at arm's length.

Toure (42:48)

I wonder what some of your early academic past has to do with this feeling in this moment. Right. You drop out of Morehouse.

Mark Lamont Hill (43:00)

Yeah.

Toure (43:00)

Right. So clearly, at that point, academics in school was not that important to you. And it seems from this distance, not being inside you, that that person is very different than this person.

Mark Lamont Hill (43:12)

I think it's the same person. I just think I appreciate the affordances of this space more than I did then. I was. When I dropped out of Morehouse, I was in love with ideas.

Toure (43:24)

Okay.

Mark Lamont Hill (43:24)

You know, I had no. I had no doubt in my mind that I had the ability to do. So I dropped out. Wanting, at that point. Wanting to get a PhD. Wanting.

Toure (43:34)

Really?

Mark Lamont Hill (43:35)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Toure (43:35)

Why'd you drop out?

Mark Lamont Hill (43:36)

It's a long and complicated story. It was a couple things. One. One was I dropped out, too.

Toure (43:43)

Of Emory.

Mark Lamont Hill (43:44)

Emory, yeah. You were in a better part of Atlanta. I was in West End. I don't know what you're talking. Hanging in Montres, man. So it's a whole different world. I think part of it was basketball, you know, I. I was a decent basketball player. Not special at all. Two guard, point guards. You know, I'm five, ten, you know, and. But I was like. I got letters and offers for, like, low D2, D3. Like, that was probably where my sweet spot was. I didn't take them. My parents wouldn't let me take them. So I ended up walking onto Morehouse, and it was just a lot of back and forth hullabaloo about that. And ultimately, basketball just wasn't working out for me. And I think when basketball ended, by the beginning of my sophomore year, you know, Yeah, I was heartbroken. That was my first love, you know. That's all I did. That's all I thought about. And so when basketball was over because you didn't make the team, I made it. That was the point. I made it. And they wanted me to. Red shirt and I don't know what was going on in my head. There were a few things going on in my head, but I decided not to. Not to. Not to do it.

Toure (44:54)

Not the red shirt.

Mark Lamont Hill (44:55)

Not the red shirt.

Toure (44:56)

Which means you wouldn't play freshman year, but then you would still have four years after that to play.

Mark Lamont Hill (45:00)

Just sit on the bench. Probably because scholarship players would have been there and they were better than me, honestly.

Toure (45:04)

So that was the problem that you ran up against. This is a better classic guy, a better class of player.

Mark Lamont Hill (45:09)

Yeah. And I could have just kept grinding and working, but then it was like. But some of it was ego. Some of it was just the impulsiveness of youth. There were some other factors at play. I thought things were going to break differently. And so when they didn't, just didn't work out for me. So I ended up dropping out. And I was involved in other stuff. I was doing a lot of stuff out in the world. Some of it legal, some of it not. Some of it had. Some of it was just weird organizations and stuff like that. You know, I was very much.

Toure (45:44)

Can you say what you were doing?

Mark Lamont Hill (45:46)

Yeah, it's not a secret. It was just more, you know, I was very active in. Do you remember the Holy Tabernacle, Dr. York? All those people? You might not have. I don't know, that might not have been your lane. But, you know, before that, we were ansars in Brooklyn. They were black organization. So I had been kind of reading the books and getting involved in all kinds of stuff more. I was just. I was interested in knowledge, but I was more interested in, like the street knowledge and books that they weren't offering in school and black bookstores and books on the table. Books on the table in the street. I mean, I was. At some point, I was selling books on the table in the street, you know, and because I was doing. I was in all these. I was like involved in reading with all these groups and trying to study and learn. I felt like school. I didn't need formal school to get a good education. I didn't need school to get a good job.

Toure (46:36)

So I can educate myself.

Mark Lamont Hill (46:37)

Yeah. And I did for a little bit, but, you know, then I was like, you know, I was struggling. So in a lot of levels. I was. My sophomore year. I dropped out the first day of my sophomore year, I think. And before the end of that semester, I was homeless.

Toure (46:58)

So how long were you homeless?

Mark Lamont Hill (47:01)

A couple months. It wasn't crazy, but where'd you sleep first? In my geometro. I had a. I Bought a geometro right before Freaknik in 96. Then they took the Geometro. They're petty like that when you don't pay the bills. Yes. So I ended up.

Toure (47:16)

So then where were you?

Mark Lamont Hill (47:18)

Lennox Mall train station.

Toure (47:19)

Is it three months?

Mark Lamont Hill (47:20)

Yeah, it was two or three. It was. I. I left Atlanta, missy. October, I was in the car. November. By November, I was like. In between the car. They took the car. November, I believe it was like the car. The bookstore. I was living in the back of a couple books, like this bookstore on mlk, you know, but there's no shower in there, so I would sneak back into Du Bois dormitory at Morehouse to shower. And then. And then at some point, yeah, I wasn't in a train station for as long, but I was there and it was tough, you know. Eventually I jumped in to the car. I'm sorry, it wasn't geometro, it was geometro. But they took that. The end of my freshman year, it was a. It was a gold Mazda 626. The second year. I remember it because I drove it to Philly, okay, on Christmas Day, Christmas Day of that year, and then. And move back to Philly for a little bit and try to get my life back together.

Toure (48:23)

What was that like?

Mark Lamont Hill (48:25)

I wish I could tell you it sucked, but it didn't.

Toure (48:28)

It didn't suck.

Mark Lamont Hill (48:29)

I mean, being cold would suck. Being hungry sucked. Stinking sucked. I mean, I'm not saying, like, I'm not. I don't want to romanticize it, right? But, you know, as I approach, I'll be 40 in two weeks. You know, when I. When I look at that time now, and even then, I mean, there was also a time of growth and adventure and I needed. I was trying on identities I didn't have before, and I was trying to figure out who I was, you know what I mean, As a. As a grown man, you know what I mean? And I think some of the. Some of the experiences I had then really were formative for me. They changed my life and they were dope, man.

Toure (48:57)

Like, what was a dope experience while you were homeless?

Mark Lamont Hill (49:03)

Having to kind of defend your. Not just your dignity, but your. Your physical space, you know? I mean, people like people fucking with you, people throwing stuff at you, people kicking you. You gotta, like, actually, like.

Toure (49:13)

Yeah.

Mark Lamont Hill (49:14)

Knuckle, you know, or that was dope. I mean, not in the moment, but sometimes. Yeah, sometimes it was just wild, you know, or like. Or like just having a crew of people that were kinda in the same circumstance as you and like just being out in the street, just, you know, getting drunk, getting high, whatever people were doing. I wasn't really big on getting high then, but, you know, just drinking, being outside, enjoying each other's company with a level of freedom that I haven't had since. You know what I mean? Like being 19, you know, 18.

Toure (49:44)

You felt greater freedom when you were homeless than you feel now.

Mark Lamont Hill (49:48)

Again, I don't want to romanticize this, but there's something about being young and uninhibited by the burdens of this age, you know, of the rat race. Yeah. I didn't have no kids. I didn't have no responsibilities. I had no job. If I took my car, I could get another one or not, you know, it was just a bunch of shit that I didn't have to think about or worry about. And to understand the world and change the world, you know what I mean? And find, you know, what Andre say in life. Life in the Day of Andre Benjamin. Just trying to find something real in this world, you know what I mean? And so we go through all these changes to kind of find something that's real. That's what I was trying to do. I was trying to figure out what was real in this world, man.

Toure (50:29)

So how'd you get out of it?

Mark Lamont Hill (50:31)

Came back to Philly, live with my mom for a little bit, and she told me I couldn't stay there much longer unless I worked. I went to school. She was mad at me because I had taken my Morehouse refund check because I dropped out the first day. And I took the check and I put. I put a payment down on the Mazda 626. So that's how I, you know, so. So she was already tight. But, you know, black mamas, you know, there's a whole other level of love with that, of course, so. Exactly. So she let me come in the house, but it wasn't for long. So I started working full time. I worked 40 hours a week, then went to school. That summer, I had to make a choice about going. I got another offer to play somewhere again, like D2, D3, something like that, and. Or to go to temple and just finish school. I decided to just go to temple and finish school because I was like, basketball's not gonna take me anywhere. You know, I can get an apartment now. I got a job. I can feel like a grown man, you know? And so I did that and went to school, and I just kept riding. And then I did okay in school. I wasn't really focused on it because I was Working so much. Then like that last year, I got really focused. I don't know what happened, but I started getting all A's and grinding. And I took this class that really changed my life called the Black Woman, was taught by Dr. Renoir McDonough. And it introduced me to theory, introduced me to this book, Black Feminist Thought, by Patricia Hill Collins, which changed, you know, the whole way I understood not just black feminism, but also it made me realize that the life of the mind was something that I wanted to really engage and pursue and that I might have some talent for it. It was the second introduction to me. The first was at Morehouse when Michael Eric Dyson came to speak my freshman year.

Toure (52:19)

Yes.

Mark Lamont Hill (52:20)

So it was that combined with this moment where I was like, yo, I could do this shit. And then things really started to turn around for me because now I had a. I not only had, like, you know, the basic shit that you want to have, you know, food, shelter, safety, but I also had, like a goal and a dream and that. And that. That really propelled me to do something different.

Toure (52:39)

So Palestine, you've been going there? You've been there how many times?

Mark Lamont Hill (52:48)

More than 10?

Toure (52:49)

More than 10?

Mark Lamont Hill (52:50)

Yeah.

Toure (52:51)

Your Instagram stories, that was just crazy.

Mark Lamont Hill (52:54)

Oh, yeah.

Toure (52:55)

I mean, and it was. So many of the Instagram joints are just like, yeah, ate this, like, great, whatever. But, like, you know, when you go to Palestine and you broadcast with what you see.

Mark Lamont Hill (53:05)

Yeah.

Toure (53:05)

Like, that's a really valuable use of the social media. It's important to me understand what. What you learned and what you know about Palestine from having been there, that we as Americans are not. Because we, you know, that's not reported on in an honest way.

Mark Lamont Hill (53:19)

Right, right. I mean, it's. First note to say that the reason, you know, I'm an anthropologist and I go there, I do my field work there, I study there, I do my research there. So part of, you know, what I'm trying to do is a kind of deep hanging out, as we say in the area, to understand kind of some bigger circumstances, but also to raise these cultural, you know, to examine these cultural. These cultural phenomena. Right. These cultural systems, these rituals, these practices, etc. So when I go to Palestine. Let me say one more thing, actually. When I first went, it was on a delegation. I was blessed to be on the first Dream Defender delegation to Palestine. Right. Right after the uprisings in Ferguson. And so in August 2014, Ferguson is happening and Gaza is happening all both in August.

Toure (54:10)

Right.

Mark Lamont Hill (54:11)

So there was some natural connection. And as I mentioned in the speech, we're getting tear gas and people in the west bank are telling us how to wash our eyes out and how to protect ourselves. So there's some solidarity possibilities there that are long, traditional solidarity possibilities. From we go back to Malcolm, we could go back further and further and see his connection. So that's why I initially got there. But when I got there, I saw first. One of the first things I saw there was an Afro Palestinian community in East Jerusalem. And I was like, oh, wait, there's an Afro Palestinian community here. There's folk that look like me here. These people look like they could be in Brooklyn. And so when I saw that, I was like, I need to know more about this. I need to understand, because I had studied in the past sort of what it meant to be an African living in various parts of diaspora, but specifically in the Middle east, you know, what does it mean to be Nubian? What does it mean, you know, what does it mean to be in the valley, in Jordan and be an African? What does it mean to be in Jericho, in the west bank or, you know, whatever, or in Yemen or Saudi? There's Africans there, but how do you get there? And what does it mean to be. How do we. How can we make sense of race outside the narrow boundaries of the United States in the black white, racial paradigm? So for me, I wanted to study this African community to understand race in a more complex way, but to also understand what it means to be African within the context of, in the case of Jerusalem, what, the actual state of Israel, because Jerusalem, East Jerusalem is contested, but, you know, it's legally in the state of Israel based on convention anyway. So I think some of the things I've learned when I'm there, one is that there are African people there and that there's an. A fascinating relationship between Afro Palestinians, particularly in East Jerusalem, and the Palestinian struggle. You know, Afro Palestinians are very much integrated into Palestinian society. You know, they come from multiple countries, different places. Senegal, Chad, Nigeria, Sudan. And they're in many ways the vanguard of the struggle. Many of them were participated in the resistance movements in 67 and 68, kind of after the Six State War. And it's just fascinating to think about, you know, how they've navigated identity there and what it means to be a citizen. But then on a broader level, with regard to the Palestinian people, I learned so much about struggle. I learned so much about freedom and unfreedom. When you're in a place where your identity and your hinges so much on what your ID card says and whether or not I mean, so this summer, I was there in the summer, and I remember I would take. There was a group of kids I would take to, like, the beach and to the basketball court and the different stuff, just to teach them different things, and they teach me different stuff. And we'd all be driving, we'd leave Jerusalem, and they'd be like, yo, make sure you put on your seatbelt. Make sure you put on your seatbelt. Right? And the moment I took them to the Dead Sea, into Jericho, because they're right very close to each other. And the moment we got up past back into the west bank, they all took their seatbelts off. And I'm like, yo. Like, they're like, we don't need them anymore. And they're like, yo, Mark, take your seatbelt off. Take your seatbelt off. And I'm like, nah, I don't want to get. If I get hit by a car, my car don't care whether I'm in the west bank or in Israel. You know what I mean? This shit gonna hurt either way. But when I pushed them on a little bit more, I was like, why do y' all. I mean, I'm talking about the moment we get across the bridge, they take the seatbelts off and they're like, because we don't have to do it. And it was like that. Just that little bit of freedom that they were able to experience, even though on some level, at the cost, maybe at the expense of their own safety, possibly. Sure, yeah. I mean, you're certainly not more safe taking a seatbelt off.

Toure (57:52)

No.

Mark Lamont Hill (57:52)

Right. But the idea for them was, like, the fact that we can do this here, that we're a little bit freer here, that this is one less thing that they're going to give us a tick for, or our security file for, one less thing that we're going to get pulled over for, one less thing they're going to fuck with us about. Like, the fact that this is just a little bit of slice of freedom that I didn't have on the other side of this bridge, I'm going to do it. That sense of how precious freedom is and freedom of movement in particular in this case, is something that I didn't fully appreciate until I got there, thinking about what it means to live under terror. You know, these kids live in a military occupation, even in East Jerusalem, where it's. You know, I don't want to get into the debates about whether what occupation means. But to be sure, if you live in the Old City, in Jerusalem, and you're walking up and down the street, there's soldiers holding guns at all times. If you're in Hebron or Khalil, you know, and you're constantly walking past soldiers, you constantly have to go in and out of checkpoints. That's not a healthy or normal childhood for anybody, you know. And so I appreciate trauma or I understand what trauma is in a different way. Not just trauma in the sense of the big event, you know, the drive by shooting. Right. The bombing, the rockets, whatever. The thing is. But think about the kind of trauma that comes from ritual harassment and ritual surveillance and, you know, military occupation. And to think about what the tax that that, you know, offers the body, the spirit, the psyche, etc. Is stunning. But I also see in Palestine a spirit of resistance and resilience. In Arabic, the word samud means steadfastness. And this idea of samud is central to how I understand Palestinian struggle. And it resonates so much with African people. Struggle.

Toure (59:50)

That's just what I was gonna ask you. Do you see a similarity culturally from having been oppressed between the two communities?

Mark Lamont Hill (59:59)

Absolutely. Watching the Africa, one of the things I love about being in Palestine is the same thing that I love about being on the continent of Africa, same thing I love about being in Haiti. It's something I love about being anywhere where we are. And that is the way that we resist. We resist with dignity and purpose, but we also find joy in our resistance. Right. It's not always about pain and misery. It's also about joy and love and sharing. I was last week, last Tuesday, I was in a city called, or a village called Khan Al Ahmar. Khan Al Ahmar is not far from Jerusalem, maybe 10 kilometers, 9. 10 kilometers, I'm not sure, but it's a short drive. And this is a Bedouin village that's about to get bulldozed. They can't get building permits because state of Israel wouldn't give them building permits. And so they built a school out of tires and mud. And the idea was, well, this is not technically a structure, so we're allowed to make it because we need a school for our kids. And so they made this whole wonderful thing out of tires and mud. Not only was it considered a structure that's going to. That's set for demolition, but that's also the pretext for knocking down the entire village now, so all the families there. It's not a huge village, but I mean, you know, a couple hundred people, probably maybe 40 families or something. It's all being wiped out. And it could happen any day now. And every night there have been protests. They're literally standing protesters have come to defend this village. It's been a. For the last nine years, they've been trying to protect this village from demolition. And it looks like it's going to happen any day now. So when I was there, I was like, I need to make sure I'm there so that I can really. I want to see it and talk to them. So it's really hard to get to. So, like you, I pull over on the side of the road and then I have me and some people I had with me, we run across the highway and we make it into the village and there's a school made out of tires and mud and there's these kids without. Many of them didn't have shoes. It's getting dark. What's interesting, though, when we get into the village and the guy calls me over, you know, and I said, hey, I've just. I'm from the States. I've heard so much about Khan Al Ahmar. I just want to see it. And so he gives me a tour. And they're. They're making prayer. It was about maybe 5 o' clock at the time, 4 or 5 o' clock. They're making prayer after prayer. They sat me down and they were like, you must let us give you coffee now. Mind you, they've been disconnected from sewage. The settlements up the road have been dumping sewage in them. They've never had access to full water lines. They've never had access to any of these things. They had to, like, an NGO gave them solar panels, so it gave some energy. I mean, they don't have running water, but they're like, despite the fact that we don't have shit, we still have to take care of you.

Toure (62:55)

You're a guest, you're a guest.

Mark Lamont Hill (62:57)

We're going to give you coffee. We have a small amount of food, but if you want it, it's yours. That level of generosity brought me to tears. There's a beauty in that that I don't think people fully get sometimes from the news cycle, that it's not just about blood and violence. It's about generosity and sacrifice and commitment and community. And that's the same spirit of giving that I understood in my own tradition, in my own family, in my own history, when black folk. We ain't have nothing. We may not have no meat, but we gave you some greens. We have greens. We make pot liquor. Like, whatever we got is yours. And we're going to stretch and make it all possible, but not just for an individual, but for a community. That idea of making it all stretch for the community, making all our resources stretch for the community, I think is part of the beauty of us. And it's something that many oppressed people share. And to look at the kind of beauty that can come out of that is amazing. Assata talked about that, right?

Toure (63:59)

Assata Shakur.

Mark Lamont Hill (63:59)

Assata Shakur talked about the kind of creativity that can come out of struggle. And she was like, you know, the relationship between creativity and struggle, you know, even in her own book, when you read her autobiography, one of the great reflections, right, on both prison and the struggle in the Black Panther Party and. And life. And as she's telling these stories, she's also given us these beautiful poems. Some are about struggle, right? Like the opening one, you know, she's talking about, you know, gamma people and tired, seasick sailors, you know, bringing ships safely home to port. Sometimes she's just talking about love, right? And rejection. Everything you love is of a different world. Hungry? You turn your nose up in my peas and rice. But she's creating, and she's creating out of struggle. The idea of creating out of struggle for me, is beautiful. And I see that's a connection I see not just in Palestine, but I see that in all throughout the continent of Africa. We see it in Cuba, we see it in Haiti. We see it. I mean, we see it in Latin America. We see it everywhere. There's something beautiful about that, and there's a lesson in that for me.

Toure (65:01)

You talk about deep hanging out.

Mark Lamont Hill (65:04)

Yes.

Toure (65:04)

I mean, that's how you're doing your. I mean, so what does that mean? Just, like, socially immersing yourself?

Mark Lamont Hill (65:10)

Yeah, you know. You know, this idea of writing culture, you know, this idea of ethnography, of really doing deep field work, is not just sitting around interviewing people. Interviewing people is cool. And that's part of the. Part of it. But to be a real participant, observer, it means you have to embed yourself in the community and become as connected as you can be. I have no illusions that I'm objective or that I can just fit in. You know, the old. You know, this isn't like some old, you know, 19th century British anthropologist, some old white man with a beard that goes to, like, you know, you know, Uganda or, you know, Rhodesia, as he would say. I'm not saying Uganda was Rhodesia, but you get my point. Who's going to Rhodesia or Southwest Africa, you know, some mandatory country? And it just fits it, right? You know, like, they don't notice this white man with a British accent in the middle of their village. I don't pretend that even as a black person. Instead, what I think about is what does it mean for me to be embedded in these communities in ways that I can understand the world through their eyes a little bit better? How can I understand how they're making sense of the world, how they make meaning of social practices, how they make meaning of the world of certain texts, and then also what meanings can I attach to them? How can I help make sense of the world through their eyes, but also things that they may miss, or what kind of bigger picture frameworks can I attach to the way that they're navigating the world? What can I map onto this place to tell a story? And so for me, that means being in the community, working there, observing, sitting, hanging out, and, you know, not always walking around with a notebook. You know, I would, you know, you know, whether. And it's not just in Palestine, wherever. I'm doing research, you know, being in the place in a way where I'm able to observe and connect, but also learn and listen. And it doesn't feel like research to people all the time. You develop real relationships with people. And I spent years doing research in black bookstores and black vending locations. And so when I'm in there, I'm not always standing there with my notepad. Sometimes it's just about the relationship. It's about learning and caring about people as well. But my goal is to be able to construct a narrative of a place that helped me understand a social problem or a social phenomenon on a deeper, more complex level. And even though it's not generalizable in a way that some big wide scale like study is like, you know, it still helps us understand theory. It helps us tell a story that's more important than just the 10, 12, 40, 50 people I talk to.

Toure (67:44)

Are you looking to build a book? Are you looking to build a documentary?

Mark Lamont Hill (67:47)

There's a few things happening, happening. So we're. I'm actively finishing a documentary. It's actually what. Why this computer's sitting out here. And that's what me and, you know, Stacy have been working on for a while. We're partnering with Existence as Resistance, and we're doing something called Black in the Holy Land, which is about the experiences of African people throughout historic Palestine, which should be pretty neat. You know, I'm excited with what we got. We have the footage. So, you know, I'm in editing stage and, you know, trying to put. You don't even want to know, man. It's been. It's been years because different people, you know, some of it was shot by someone else. Like. Like Existence Resistance shot some of the stuff. And then I came on a little bit later and, you know, worked through that, worked on a lot of the translation stuff, a lot of the edits, and then I had to go out there and actually shoot my own stuff. So it's insane the amount of footage we have. It's too much footage, actually. But it's beautiful. I'm writing a book on Palestinians in East Jerusalem, and then I have other projects related to Palestine in the Middle east that are coming out. And Palestine is not the only stuff I'm writing on. It just happens to be the phase I'm in in terms of. Of what I'm working on. What else are you writing on, man?

Toure (69:09)

Big things. Books?

Mark Lamont Hill (69:10)

Yeah. Yeah, I have a book. It's a little big book. It's called. It's called Decriminalizing the Imagination. It's schooling toward a world without prisons. You know, I'm an abolitionist and I'm trying abolishing prison. Abolishing prison? Yeah, and slavery and all that other stuff too.

Toure (69:27)

But prison seems to be in the Black Lives Matter community. Abolitionist often means abolishing the police force.

Mark Lamont Hill (69:35)

Right. So you want that too? Ultimately, yeah. If we have a world without prisons, I think we can be just as ambitious around law enforcement. You know, I don't know. You know, I think that these are long term goals, though, and that's important for people to understand too. You know, I don't think that we can abolish prisons tomorrow or police tomorrow, but I think we can get there. And it's like the Pascalian wager, too. Like, you know, you know, Pascal talked about, you know, the faith in God, and he's like, look, even if God ain't real, even if I got this God thing wrong, I still would have lived a life based on a set of values and principles that are worth living in and of themselves. So I really haven't lost that. This is the right side of the argument. And there's. We could subject that to some greater analytic scrutiny, but just for the purpose of this point, if abolition is my goal, even. Even if. Even if I'm wrong about its practicality or its doability. If I can get in a world where we get rid of bail. Cash bail, right? If I can get in a world where we get, you know, where we decriminalize these drugs, if I get into.

Toure (70:40)

A world where you know, solitary confinement.

Mark Lamont Hill (70:42)

Right.

Toure (70:42)

Juvenile prison.

Mark Lamont Hill (70:43)

Right. These are all abolitionist moves.

Toure (70:45)

Right.

Mark Lamont Hill (70:46)

So let's say we don't get to the final end, but. But we're able to. Yeah, we can. We can decriminalize. We can decarcerate. Then I feel good.

Toure (70:53)

I mean. Yeah, I mean, that's some of the deepest. And just to think about that certain people are making money, capitalizing on such things.

Mark Lamont Hill (71:04)

Absolutely.

Toure (71:05)

That's crazy that we allow that.

Mark Lamont Hill (71:07)

The fact that there's money in human captivity is evil.

Toure (71:13)

What is it in you that has led to your success?

Mark Lamont Hill (71:23)

I always like to preface that with, you know, the things outside of me, the networks, the support, the care, and the luck, you know, are often the distinction between me and somebody else who didn't make it, who's just as talented. But I think I do have a drive. I do think that I am ambitious. I see things a long time before they happen, you know, and then I. Then I do the work of making them happen again. I'm thinking about Assata Shakur and her grandmama and her dreams. And she said, her dreams. She said, dreams and reality are opposites, but what galvanizes them or what connects them is the action in between those, the dreams and reality. And so for me, you know, it's like, oh, I imagine this thing over here, and I want to go make it happen. And so that's what I try to do. And I think so. There's an ambition, but there's also a work ethic attached to it. It. I'm willing to do what needs to be done in order to be successful. And again, I'm always uncomfortable with that answer. Not because it's not true, but because I don't want people to ever walk away feeling like people who aren't as successful simply didn't want it as bad or didn't work as hard. I think there's also a tremendous amount of luck and opportunity and good fortune and privilege. That comes along with a lot of things, too.

Toure (72:35)

Yes, absolutely. And the humility and the understanding that you are not the only author of your path. Noted.

Mark Lamont Hill (72:43)

Absolutely.

Toure (72:44)

That stipulated. Okay. So what's your superpower?

Mark Lamont Hill (72:48)

Um. Patience.

Toure (72:51)

Really?

Mark Lamont Hill (72:51)

Yeah. I think most people in my world would say that I'm patient. Very few people would say. Would not say that I'm patient.

Toure (72:59)

I've known you for a long time. I'm not going to disagree with that. But that. That would not jump to mind. And not that you're impatient, although, in a larger sense, professionally, you have seemed to be rushing for a Long time.

Mark Lamont Hill (73:14)

That's fair. That's fair. That's a game.

Toure (73:16)

He has another book.

Mark Lamont Hill (73:17)

Damn.

Toure (73:17)

He has another TV show. Damn. He has another.

Mark Lamont Hill (73:20)

That's a fair. That's a fair point. So there's a way that I'm patient, but it's like I try to do things quickly but not fast, you know, as John Wooden. Was it Wooden. Wooten. John Wooden would say. John Wooden would say. He would tell his players, you know, you know, do it quickly but not fast. Right. So for me, it's like, yeah, I want to move to the next thing and be successful, but I don't want to be hasty or sloppy in how I navigate these spaces, at least professionally, you know, personally, I probably fuck a lot of shit up, but professionally, I think that part's really important to me. And so, you know, when I'm on tv, people say I'm patient. Like, I don't know how you stay. The first thing people say, I don't know how you sit there while so and so does how you manage to do. That's first thing people ask. But I navigate interpersonally like that as well. I can withstand large amounts of discomfort and dis. Ease and things like that in order to get where I want to be. I'm able to wait things out, you know, I think so. I think that's. I think patience is certainly one of them. I think discipline, which I think, again, is connected to the patience thing. Yeah, I think those would probably be.

Toure (74:31)

The biggest thing when I go to vote in 2020. Will your name be on the ballot?

Mark Lamont Hill (74:40)

No.

Toure (74:41)

In 2024?

Mark Lamont Hill (74:43)

Maybe.

Toure (74:44)

Maybe.

Mark Lamont Hill (74:44)

Maybe. I mean, it would be like Green Party, right? Yeah. Yeah. I was asked to run a VP Green party in 16. I said no.

Toure (74:53)

Why? You had been Jill Stein's running mate.

Mark Lamont Hill (74:56)

Yeah. She asked me and I said no. I hope I'm not talking out of school, but, I mean, I don't think it's that much of a secret. I said no. And the reason I said no is one, it wasn't a good time for me professionally. You know, I had just a lot of other things going on that I wanted to take seriously. I wasn't sure that we had.

Toure (75:24)

A.

Mark Lamont Hill (75:24)

Coherent enough game plan or strategy. And as much as I believe in the platform and ideology of the Green Party, I didn't. I don't want us to just be spoilers. I don't want us to just show up in grandstand every four years.

Toure (75:40)

You don't have a chance.

Mark Lamont Hill (75:42)

I mean.

Toure (75:43)

I mean, you want to have a chance.

Mark Lamont Hill (75:44)

Everybody Wants to have a chance. But I guess what I'm saying is I don't want us to just be thinking about presidential elections. I want us to be thinking about mayoralties and gubernatorial elections. I want us to be thinking about council seats, things we can win and build momentum and as well as fight on the national stage.

Toure (76:00)

Were the Greens or Jill in particular part of spoiling or part of Hillary's loss?

Mark Lamont Hill (76:08)

Yeah, I immediately regret using the word spoil, because that's not what I meant. I meant grandstanding. I think if the Green Party doesn't appear on the ticket, Hillary Clinton still loses. There may be a state that she would have won, you know, maybe Wisconsin or something, you know, but there's an assumption embedded that if people, the people who voted Joe Stein, if they didn't vote Joe Stein would have jumped to Hillary. And that's just not true.

Toure (76:36)

Not necessarily.

Mark Lamont Hill (76:36)

It's only not necessarily true. Some would have, but most would not have, I think. I mean, remember, there are people who. They've wanted Bernie, and their second choice was Trump.

Toure (76:44)

Right.

Mark Lamont Hill (76:44)

So it wasn't ideological. People were looking for something outside of the mainstream. They didn't want a mainstream candidate. They wanted someone who was different. And Trump certainly is that. And some people just were animated by a dislike or distrust of Hillary Clinton, whether it's fair or not. I think some of it was sexism. I think some of it was unfairly punishing her for the sins of Bill Clinton, which, again, becomes sexist.

Toure (77:06)

Very sexist.

Mark Lamont Hill (77:07)

I think there's all these reasons why people didn't want Hillary Clinton. I think Hillary Clinton also didn't do a good job of reaching out to black and brown voters. I think in Florida, they did an awful job. I think she assumed she'd win. I think everyone just assumed she'd win. And they didn't take Donald Trump seriously. And that's a big part of it.

Toure (77:24)

So you might be on the ticket in 2024.

Mark Lamont Hill (77:28)

I have no plans to be. And I'm not giving you, like, a cagey political answer. I'm saying I have no plans. Plans to be, but, you know, who knows what'll happen in six years?

Toure (77:34)

Okay.

Mark Lamont Hill (77:35)

You know, I'm not opposed to running on a third party ticket if I think it will leave the country better than we found it. That's my only criteria.

Toure (77:45)

I hate when my brothers and sisters in media do the thing of, are you gonna run for president?

Mark Lamont Hill (77:51)

Right, right, right.

Toure (77:51)

And I'm trying to not do that. I thought you had an idea. Yes or no?

Mark Lamont Hill (77:58)

Yeah. No. I have no plans to do it. I think there are many people who can do that. In fact, and I'll be very clear, you know, I think Ajamu, who ended up running as vp, was a much better choice than me. Much more thoughtful and critical and radical in all the best ways. I would choose him over me. And so I'm glad it worked out the way it did. Yeah.

Toure (78:21)

What are some of your goals and dreams for the next five years?

Mark Lamont Hill (78:26)

Wanna own more stuff, More companies. Yeah. And I don't mean it. And I guess what I mean is I wanna be in control of more of my own products and voices. It's not about the money per se. It's about having security and stability. You know, being on TV is cool, but you get to a point in your life where you're like, I've been on tv.

Toure (78:45)

True.

Mark Lamont Hill (78:46)

Right. You know what I'm saying? Right? So, yes, then it's like, all right, and it's dope. It's dope.

Toure (78:51)

I did that.

Mark Lamont Hill (78:52)

Right. And it can be just a big ego boost, you know, and it's like, other than people knowing who you are when you walk into a restaurant, like, what are we doing? Platform wise, content wise, but also life.

Toure (79:03)

Wise, you know, it's a specific language and it's a specific dance that we're doing there. And it's a value to do it for a while. And then after a certain point, it's not like, where am I going with it? Like, you know, there's diminishing returns, turns.

Mark Lamont Hill (79:18)

Right. It becomes its own end sometimes. And I don't want that. So, you know, I plan to stay on tv, but I also want to create platforms. I want to be able to build and grow. You know, I want to write more books. I want to create some platform for real conversation and, and real long form interviews and long form you know, scripted and unscripted content. I want to be able to do all this stuff. I want to make films, I want to. I want to produce shows. I want to really help sustain book culture in America. You know, that's why I own a bookstore, but that's why I want to do book festivals, you know, and, and, you know, beyond the professional, I just want to keep growing as a person. I want to be a better person than I was a year ago or two years ago. That's, that's just super important to me.

Toure (80:00)

What do you need to do to be better person than a year ago?

Mark Lamont Hill (80:03)

I mean, shit, I'd have to make a list.

Toure (80:06)

But don't be, don't don't be too much.

Mark Lamont Hill (80:10)

It's fine. Just a little. Just a little bit. Change a little bit. I mean, there are things I want to work on all the time. I mean, I think I'm learning to articulate my needs better. I'm learning to be less selfish. I think it's something that we all should work on. But I think for me, there are particular ways that I can be selfish emotionally. I'm looking to be more transparent and honest in all kinds of relationships, things like that. Yeah.

Toure (80:40)

Great. Good luck.

Mark Lamont Hill (80:42)

Thank you.

Toure (80:42)

Thank you so much for your time.

Mark Lamont Hill (80:44)

This is fun, bro.

Toure (80:44)

It's awesome. Thanks to Mark for a great interview and thanks to you for listening to show gives you fuel to power your dreams because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into a life you never imagined. You can make your dreams a reality and this show can help. I'm on Twitter ore and on Instagram orayshow. Please subscribe Rate Review Tell your friends about the show. You know the drill. Toray show is written by me Torre and produced by Chris Colbert and Tyrese Hester with help from Candid Nicole and our photographer Chuck Marcus. We'll be back next Wednesday with more knowledge from more amazing folks because the man can't shut us down.