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- [00:00]
Torre
Being a marketer is no sweat. You just have to manage dozens of channels, launch hundreds of campaigns, score thousands of leads and. Okay, fine. It's a lot of sweat. Unless you have HubSpot's AI powered marketing tools to help you do all that and more. Get started@HubSpot.com marketers rated T2M. Hey, want to hear a PC Game Pass ad? I'll take your silence as a yes. Want new games on day one, like Call of Black Ops 6 or S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2? I thought so. How about unlocking all the League of Legends champions when you link your Riot Games account, Offer one low monthly price.
- [00:32]
Danielle Moody
Well, guess what? We got you.
- [00:35]
Torre
Learn more@xbox.com PCGame Pass or click the banner STALKER2. Available November 20, 2024. Game catalog varies by region and over time. And that's the end of the script.
- [00:45]
Danielle Moody
Vitor ratio okay though. The tour ratio. Okay, though.
- [00:52]
Torre
That might be the best question I've ever been asked.
- [00:55]
Crystal Ball
You's a phenomenal person.
- [00:57]
Danielle Moody
I mean, you legendary. I am a fan of you, my bro. So I think that for women, for young women, particularly at a time when, for the first time in 50 years, young girls are going to have it harder than their mothers and their grandmothers did, that they do not have the same rights and the same bodily autonomy and the same access. And we're seeing it eroded state by state, right. Position by position. What did Desantis. Desantis got rid of? Not only African American. He got rid of gender studies, Right. He got rid of the arts. And so they're trying this work of erasure. So I think that having a Madam President of the United States will be a game changer and one that the right, frankly, is afraid of.
- [01:53]
Torre
So we had a lot of history happen over the weekend. Kamala Harris is in now. She is the presumptive Democratic party nominee for president. This is an extraordinary situation to me because I know Kamala. I met her about 20 years ago. We had lunch and dinner several times. We have mutual friends. And even then, when she was the attorney general and the district attorney, you knew that she was an extraordinary person. You could see she was brilliant. She was tough, she had empathy. You felt like I would follow her anywhere. I would be comfortable if she was the leader. And you could feel this was the sort of person who ascends to higher levels of government and these sorts of things. So I can say that we felt this coming. But my God, nominated for president. It is amazing and such an amazing moment in history. You, ma'am, we turn to you to Protect the democracy from the greatest threat to democracy that we have ever known. I want to talk about what it means to have Kamala as the nominee, what it means to have us come so close to a female president, what it means to Kamala in regards to Gaza and Israel, what it means in regards to reproductive freedom, all sorts of things. So I called two people I know and love for a long time, Crystal Ball, who I was on MSNBC with, and Danielle Moody, who I did Democracy Ish with. I'm gonna talk to them for the hour about vice president and nominee for president from the Democratic Party, Kamala Harris. So there was a tweet I saw recently. Somebody said, we are living through somebody's complex part of their AP gov 2053 exam. And all of this will be very difficult for us just to explain to our grandchildren. But I wanted to bring together two amazing women who I love, who I admire intellectually and politically, to talk about what it means that Kamala Harris has ascended to, let's call her the presumptive nominee of the Democratic Party and is running for president, has a real shot to become the first female president, to say nothing of first black female president. Danielle Moody, who I did a podcast with for a long time, Democracy now. And Crystal Ball, who I did a TV show with on msnbc, the Cycle for a long time. I love you guys. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about all this. Danielle, how do you feel about Kamala Harris now being the Democratic nominee for president?
- [04:57]
Danielle Moody
I feel. Let me. I'm, like, afraid to jinx myself in this moment. But I will say that on Sunday morning when I woke up, I felt like garbage and very hopeless. And by Sunday night when I went to bed, I said, oh, my God, this is a possibility. And it was because of all of the Democrats lining up one by one institution and organization at one after the other that fell in line. I didn't think that Democrats had it in them to fall in line in the way that we always joke that they need to fall in love and Republicans fall in line. And so the fact that we did not devolve into what I thought would be this cannibalistic we're going to eat our own and cause more chaos over the next couple of weeks leading to convention. And that didn't happen. And all of the people whose names have been sprinkling and circling around in the media all came out early saying, she's a tenacious leader, she's a warrior. I'm with her. Whitmer said Today I'm the co chair of her campaign. All the people that we thought would be in the running were the first to come out and say I'm behind her. And so now I feel. I'm like, oh, shit, what is this feeling? Is this. Is this what hope is like? Because I forgot Crystal.
- [06:21]
Torre
How do you feel?
- [06:24]
Crystal Ball
Similar, but in a different way. So Biden dropping is hopeful to me. I am not fully, as they say, coconut pill, though I would have preferred the messy disarray that Danielle was very leery of for a few reasons. I think if you do have a truly open convention process, which there will be a technically open convention process, it's just that Kamala Harris will really be the only candidate in contention. So it's all but assumed she'll be presumptive nominee. She's already more than halfway there to having the delegates, et cetera, but for a couple reasons. Number one, Democrats, when they circled the wagons around Joe Biden after the 2022 midterms and really hid him from the public in a way that allowed them to cover up the level of his decline, they short circuited any ability to have an actual Democratic process, which would have been the ideal way to come to who the nominee was, which I think Kamala Harris very likely would have been, given her status, positioning, et cetera. But to go through that process, have this, you know, legitimate Democratic nomination process, that would have been ideal. Okay, well, they didn't do that. So now you're in this position where it truly is just, you know, Nancy Pelosi and the Clintons and the Democratic elected elites, media donor class, who were saying, well, this is our candidate. Now, as I said before, if you look at the polling, the overwhelming majority at this point of the Democratic base does want it to be Kamala Harris. But I think if you had an open convention process where you had people making their case, giving their pitches, proving themselves in some way to the American public, it would confer additional legitimacy. And contrary to the idea of like, oh my God, it'd be cannibalistic and chaotic, et cetera. I actually think in this reality TV age, having a sort of Celebrity Apprentice reality show style process would actually invest people and excite them in the. In the Democratic nomination process and in the Democratic Party, which up to this point has really forestalled any ability to have sort of Democratic input into this process. So, all that being said, though, I do feel excited. I was not a Kamala person in 2020. I'm not sure who she will be as president, but I Am I'm happy it's not Biden because of his agent is decline. I'm happy it's not Biden because he has overseen a genocide in Gaza that is unconscionable. Yes, Kamala Harris has been part of that administration, but there are some indications that she's been a dissenting voice. And so I'm going to, you know, give the grace of hoping that there's a pivot there. There's some indications already that there may be. And I also just think because she's younger, because she. Because of her identity, because she isn't this like ideologically dug in on Israel in the way that Biden is, that it is very possible that she is somewhat better on the issue than Joe Biden.
- [09:14]
Torre
Before. Before, when we as Dems were talking about what should happen, there was already a deep nervousness among black people that the black woman would be skipped over. And if you went to the brokered convention, West Wing sort of thing that you're talking about, that chorus would be extremely loud and constantly having black people going, well, I don't know if I want to participate in this because why did you skip over the vice president? And that. That would be very. That conversation alone would be very dangerous for Dems.
- [09:49]
Crystal Ball
But I don't think it would be skipping over the vice president. I mean, being the vice president coming from California, which has the largest host of delegates, she would very likely come out as the winner of that process. But then she would not only be the winner of that process, she also would have proven herself because let's be honest, at this point, she had a disastrous 2020 run. She didn't even make it to the first primary. She didn't have high levels of support among any demographic group, including black Americans. So it would. And she hasn't. Her approval ratings have been very poor in the vice presidency as well. I mean, she's been dragged down, I think, in a lot of ways by Joe Biden himself. I mean, there's a lot that's going on there for sure, but it would give her the opportunity also to rise to the occasion and to sharpen her skills so that she really is truly ready to go up against Donald Trump, who is damaged in a lot of ways, but is still a very formidable competitor.
- [10:42]
Torre
Danielle, how do we make sense of. She didn't do particularly well in the 2020 primary, had some solid debates, had some really memorable debate moments, but, you know, didn't. Probably wasn't in the top four or five candidates, and yet now we place her In a general election. I'm trying to make sense of that. Is it that it's two different audiences and two different processes?
- [11:12]
Danielle Moody
Yeah, I think that, look, we were in a different place in 2020. Right. And I think that, you know, while we were coming off of the debacle that was the Trump administration, I think that the. I wasn't even really excited about any of the primary candidates that we had. Right. Like, Joe Biden was not on my list of people. I was excited when Kamala announced because it was harkening back history and Shirley Chisholm and, like, look at this black woman, you know, announcing that she's going to run for president. So for me also, as like a Jamaican child of immigrants, like, I was excited about that, but her campaign did fizzle. I don't think that she showed up in a way that excited people. I don't think that she had the ability to differentiate herself. That being said, I think also she wasn't really given the opportunity as vice president to really showcase her skills. I do believe that the administration was kind of like, hey, we made history here, but then please forget about the history that we made here, because I don't want you to think that this old white man is going to die and then this black woman is going to step up in his place. And so I think that there was a level of hiding that they did of her and not putting her on issues that made sense for her background. Right. And so for me, we started to see more of the Kamala that I think that we saw during the Supreme Court confirmation hearing, that we starting to see that clip recirculate. Actually, Hillary Clinton posted it recently where she took on Kavanaugh and made him basically cry when Roe v. Wade was overturned. You started to see the Kamala that we saw in the Senate because it was an issue that she knows, it was a place that she was comfortable, and she could literally bring the case and kind of break it down to the ways in which the politicized and weaponized Supreme Court was working to take away bodily autonomy for women, and that they weren't gonna stop there. And so I think that the administration, to a certain extent, did her a disservice. But I just wanna touch on what Crystal said about this. This kind of open primary and open convention. I think now, you know, three and a half months to go for the election. I think that people are just starting to wake up to just how dangerous and existential of a threat Donald Trump and Project 2025 are. And while I would Love to have all the time in the world to be able to give our very microwave, you know, instant gratification, celebrity focused society, you know, the pageantry of an open, you know, of an open primary process. That shit should have happened, you know, back like many years ago. Like we're, I just, yeah, no doubt about that. We're running up against the clock here. And for me, I was up until Sunday the same person that was saying, do not have Joe Biden step aside because I did not want the disarray because we need unity now more than ever. And so, you know, do I think that Kamala Harris is up to the job? 150%. I do think that she's up for the job. I think that now that she has a path and people have moved out of her way, I'm hoping that she is going to rise to the occasion and I think that she will rise to the occasion in a way that she wasn't able to do in 2020 because I still think that she was trying to fit into a mold that really has been blown up nowadays.
- [14:52]
Crystal Ball
Okay, can I, can I speak to a little bit of that, Tori? Because I think Danielle makes some, some very good points here. So to me, this, the strengths of Kamala Harris and I feel like, and I wonder if you guys agree with this. After the Biden disastrous debate performance, she has had an extra swagger. You know, she goes, the appearances she's been doing, they've really been clicking. She goes down to Essence Festival, people are sharing her clips. They're going viral. You know, Bernie bros like me used to beef with the K hive all the time are now coconut pilled and sharing memes and Gen Z loves are like, it's, you know, it's a thing, right? It's become, it's become a real thing. And I do think that she has stepped up to the moment. Her strengths in the past have been, as Danielle was pointing out, that prosecutor background comes out for her when she is in a commanding position where she is able to drive the pace and prosecute the case. That is when she is at her best. When she has struggled is when she's been thrown off. So two examples that are floating around. One of them is the hit on her from Tulsi Gabbard of all people, who's, whatever. But during the primary where she gets hit with things that everybody in Democratic circles knew about her tough on crime past in California and for whatever reason that threw her off and she had a very difficult time responding in the moment. The other More recent example is Lester Holt. In an interview when she was doing, you know, put in charge of the border and immigration or whatever, he asked her something which again had been this question circulating in right wing circles of when are you going to the border? It was a kind of an obvious question for her to get, and she completely mangled it, threw her off for whatever reason. So those are the places where she has, as a political candidate, just as a political talent in, at times struggled. And I know Tara, you've experienced too, you're trying to get an interview with her. Her staff has always been very cautious about who she goes on with and is she prepared and what's she going to say. And she's always been very tightly controlled because I think of her own nervousness about being caught off guard or being caught unprepared in a situation she is not ready for. But I think we're already seeing the polls that say she's already doing better than Biden was doing. You're already seeing that just your. Any level of Democrat, every single swing state Democrat in the country was outperforming Joe Biden. So even if Kamala isn't a, a plus plus all the time, 100% political performer, I think the bet you're taking with her is that any Democrat who's not 80 years old and can formulate a sentence from, you know, formulate a thought from the beginning of the sentence to the end of the sentence is going to be well positioned to beat Donald Trump. And I think she exceeds that. I'm not trying to knock her with that. I just think that's where we are. Trump is. It's easy to forget Trump is incredibly damaged goods. It's pathetic that Democrats are in a position to lose to this man. And so, you know, I think she's a little undervalued at this point. I do think she's been hidden. I think that the Biden team was never really comfortable with her for whatever reason. Maybe it was those early missteps. I do feel like she has some swagger now and has a chance to inject a lot of excitement into a public that has been dreading a rematch between two people that they really were not excited about having a rematch between.
- [18:16]
Torre
No, I feel an excitement akin to Obama's campaign, akin to maybe later Clinton campaign where people are like, I am excited to vote for this person. And not just like, well, you know, a lot of people were like, these are the two options. These are the two best people in this entire. Are you kidding me? Um, Crystal, do you think she can win?
- [18:39]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, I think she can win. I think she, I still think you have to say she's an underdog just because of the way this unfolded because she's starting late and all of that. But I'm talking like a 60, 40 underdog. And I think you are likely to see a polling bump just because of that level of like, oh my God, someone different. And, you know, she feels fresh and new even though she's been on the political scene because she has been kind of hidden. I think she will exceed people's expectations given what they've seen from her in the past or the way she's been caricatured at times in the past. So I think she's got a good shot. And coming out of the Democratic convention, maybe she even gets more of a bump. We'll see if Trump decides to debate her like, it's all there for her. And Danielle's point about Roe vs. Wade is a great one. That is the most critical issue for Democratic success right now. And she's been a very effective spokesperson on that issue in a way that Joe Biden is just never going to be cut out to be because he, let's be real, his own Catholic background, like, he hasn't been good on abortion for most of his time. He's trying to mimic the words. They're not there for him. You know, you're not going to teach an old dog new tricks. All he really wants to talk about is like, NATO these days, apparently. And so he was, that was never going to be a place where he was going to be able to hit Donald Trump. That was one of the most disastrous moments in the disaster debate. He gets asked this softball down the middle question about abortion and goes off on some tangent about illegal immigrant, undocumented immigrants, raping, killing people. It's like, why would you ever bring this up? Specifically, why would you bring this up in the context of your strongest issue? And then let me quick pivot to my absolute worst issue, where I have the lowest approval ratings on absolutely anything.
- [20:20]
Torre
Danielle, what does she need to do to win?
- [20:24]
Danielle Moody
I think that she needs to hit the campaign trail. I think that we need to see her at rallies. I think that she needs to be in front of people. I want to see more of the Essence Fest, Kamala Harris, that likes to be around people, that is shaking hands, that is getting in conversations. I think that that is where she's going to be best served. And then sprinkled in with some more one on one interviews. So that People get a general sense of her so that there are no questions about her capability. And I think that if she does that, you know, if she goes and spends a lot of time in these, you know, in these quote unquote swing states and connects with people and excites the base, I think that she has a real genuine shot at this. And I, and I, you know, I was talking the other day, like to my, to my family and we were saying, like, she is a cross section. Just her as a person is a cross section of so many different communities, right. Like they're that are excited to claim her. Right. So you're talking about HBCU folks, you're talking about the Divine Nine. You're talking about the AAPI community, you're talking about the Caribbean community, you're talking about black women lawyers, right? Tish James came out and said, bam, we got you, you know, as these DAs and AGs. So I feel like if she, if we see her with her people and with the people and they're excited and excited to be with her and she gets excited, I think that we're going to see the Kamala that we need.
- [22:00]
Torre
I don't remember.
- [22:00]
Crystal Ball
I'm honestly.
- [22:01]
Torre
Go ahead, Crystal.
- [22:02]
Crystal Ball
I was just going to. I'm honestly floored by the amount of grassroots donations that have poured in. Oh my gosh, $90 million in a 24 hour, 24 hours. I mean, that, that's like a record breaking sum. Some 600,000 new people who hadn't given yet in 2024. There was that organizing call, Black women organizing call that 40,000 people were on. I mean, that's insane. And so while the hardcore Democratic base was going to drag themselves to the poll and vote for Joe Biden no matter what, even if he couldn't speak at all anymore. The enthusiasm matters. And also, Joe Biden had created a lot of problems for himself with a lot of key constituencies that I think will give Kamala Harris more of a hearing. I'm thinking of young people in particular. I'm thinking of Arab Americans in particular over the genocidal war in Gaza. And I'm also thinking of black Americans who I think it was undersold. How dissonant the policy was in that community as well, judging by the polls and the historic connection with Palestinian liberation. So she gets a fresh chance this week. Bibi Netanyahu has already arrived into D.C. and she's suddenly had other plans. She's not going to be able to preside over the Senate while he's there. That's an important indication. And some of the Biden administration officials who resigned over his policy have said, you know, we, we think Kamala might be a little better. Now, listen, I'm a lefty. I'm jaded. I know not to expect too much right, out of normal American politics. I'm not going to say that she's going to be out here with me wearing like watermelon shirt and saying, genocide Joe must go. But could she be a little bit better? Like, you know, the way Obama was a little bit better and had more progressive foreign policy hands around him? Could she be that? Yeah, I think that that is. I think that is very possible, if not likely, given the way that Bibi Netanyahu has also transformed himself into this very partizan Trump aligned figure. Just your normal run of the mill Democrat is likely to be better than Joe Biden on the issue of Gaza, in my perspective.
- [24:15]
Torre
I remember the day after 2016, the election, and my wife was very upset and she was like, you know, you got yours. You got to see a black person be president. And I thought I was about to get a woman president, and I didn't get that. And I wonder, what is the feeling in you guys, in women in general who care about this stuff, that we've still to this date never had a female president?
- [24:49]
Danielle Moody
I mean, I think that, you know, America likes to position itself as a, you know, still with this beacon on the hill idea, like, look at our democracy, look at us, we're the envy of the world. And yet you look around at other nations and they're on their second and third, you know, Madam President, right? So I think that for a country that performs democracy to some extent, well, we still are very much lodged in this 19th century way of thinking about women, right. And what roles women can have. And I think that, you know, for a lot of reasons, Hillary Clinton was not liked, Right. And I think that Kamala Harris will not have that likability issue. I think that for 30 years, Hillary Clinton had been in front of the American people. And for a lot of women, you know, white women I'm talking about specifically, still carried a grudge and felt insulted, you know, by the, I don't bake cookies. I'm not that type of, you know, I'm not that type of woman. I think that some women then, as they got older, when she didn't leave her husband after he cheated and publicly humiliated her, were just like, so now you're standing by your man. We thought that you were like this, you know, this ball buster, you Know, type of feminist. Right. So I think that to a certain extent, she had disappointed different sets of women for different reasons. But I think that for this country to actualize its motto, its creed, and say that, like, women can do whatever it is that they want and they're equal, you know, to men, we need this. We need to see this happen. And it needs not to just be the first. I mean, we have watched how men have entered us into wars, have, you know, their greed, their ego. Right. Have destroyed so much the environment, all of these things. And so I think that for women in this country to see a Madam President, like, it's not enough for a vice president, because again, we had not seen her really activated in that role to a place of power.
- [27:03]
Torre
But we've also seen women supporting a man endless times. So female vice president, and still she just standing in service of the man, right?
- [27:11]
Danielle Moody
Exactly. I'm standing in service of the patriarchy. So I think that for women, for young women, particularly at a time when for the first time in 50 years, young girls are going to have it harder than their mothers and their grandmothers did, that they do not have the same rights and the same bodily autonomy and the same access. And we're seeing it eroded state by state. Right. And position by position. What, what did Desantis. Desantis got rid of? Not only African Americans. He got rid of gender studies. Right. He got rid of the arts. And so they're trying this, this, this work of erasure. So I think that having a Madam President of the United States will be a game changer and one that the right, frankly is afraid of, given all of their really pitiful, sad attacks 24 hours later. I mean, J.D. vance. Embarrassing. It was a police clap moment. Oh, she's an angry cat lady and Mountain Dew. Now they're going to call me a racist. Like, nah, you would just be a racist. Cuz you are one. Right.
- [28:19]
Crystal Ball
Like, you know, I'm trying to pull up. Did you see the Laura Loomer.
- [28:24]
Danielle Moody
Oh, yes. That like. And I can't say enough bad things in my head that I will not articulate about that woman. Yeah, but you say, you say what it. You offer, what it is she said, Chris.
- [28:37]
Crystal Ball
Well, I didn't. I expected a lot of things, right. Because I mean, we already saw the, like, oh, Kamala's the DEI president. You know, I mean, they just, they couldn't help themselves, right? They couldn't. And I do think that that's a kind of a superpower for her, is that they can't Help but reveal themselves in this moment. I did not anticipate the fixation on she doesn't have kids. Yep, this weird. Like these people are such six sick freaks. The things that they obsess over. And I also think it's hilarious that Trump picks J.D. vance at the moment when he is riding the absolute highest. Right. He's just survived the assassination attempt. All the polls say, oh my God, you're going to win in a landslide. The Biden dropout chatter has quieted because of the assassination attempt. So he thinks, oh, they're stuck with Biden. I can pick whoever I want in this moment. And he picks this dude who's such an off putting freak who has so many terrible. He says so many just unconsciously horrific things about women and abortion and now he's stuck with it. It's just hilarious to me because my, my co host is wearing. Ryan Grimm pointed this out. There were like two days in which there was the window for J.D. vance to make sense to Trump as a nominee. And those are the two days in which he gets chosen. And now he's saddled with this dude. But the Laura Loomer that she was speculating that, oh, she doesn't have children because her uterus is scarred. I mean, just on and on.
- [30:04]
Danielle Moody
And they should, and they should investigate. And we're like, by all means, make that your platform.
- [30:10]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, go ahead and try.
- [30:11]
Danielle Moody
Go ahead and get hipaa.
- [30:12]
Crystal Ball
Go, go investigate her medical hit on her. Great hit on her. The other thing, the, you know, nrsc. So the official Republican Senatorial campaign committee who is advising their Republican candidates how to run against Camel and Kamala and whatever, they had a section in their memo they sent out about weird Kamala that said things like she laughs at inappropriate moments and she likes Venn diagrams. Like, whoa, you really got her there. You really got her there.
- [30:38]
Danielle Moody
That's what they came, a laugh. And then, you know, it was funny because I think that I saw people say, have we ever seen Donald Trump ever laugh? Like heartily, like with joy? Not in sarcasm, not in, you know, being mean to somebody, whatever. Just have you ever seen Donald Trump laugh? And I was like, no, actually, I.
- [31:03]
Torre
Mean, you have to actually be listening to another person to laugh, not just waiting for your turn to talk.
- [31:08]
Crystal Ball
So of course he's never.
- [31:10]
Danielle Moody
But wait, Chris, maybe he has a Desantis style laugh. We don't know Crystal, that would be.
- [31:14]
Torre
Can white women in general see this as their moment as well? Because a woman is ascending. We already see the excitement among black women. But what about white women. Can they see it as like, oh, a woman and not just. That's something for them.
- [31:31]
Crystal Ball
I appreciate that you have granted me the ability to speak on all, all.
- [31:36]
Torre
Of them, talk to me on behalf.
- [31:37]
Crystal Ball
Of all white women.
- [31:38]
Torre
All of them.
- [31:41]
Crystal Ball
I. I mean, I think so. I can tell you for me, listen, and I know you guys agree with this. So this is not something that's groundbreaking. The policy comes first. Like, obviously, if it was, you know, Sarah Palin who was president, we wouldn't be, oh, my God, it's a woman. Thank God. The policy is the most important thing for me. And I still have a lot of questions about what Kamala Harris's policy is going to be. Obviously I said what I said about the genocide in Gaza. My hopes for her there on economic policy, Biden, in my opinion, has actually been pretty good. He's done great job on antitrust. He's done a great job, by and large, on labor. His National Labor Relations Board has been phenomenal. Those are things that are very, very important to me. And I don't know where Kamala stands on those issues. So those are just question marks that I still have. Because the way she positioned herself when she was running statewide in California, very different from the way she positioned herself when she was running for Senate and when, especially when she was running for president. I meant to bring that up earlier too, as one of her other weaknesses is a lack of firm ideological grounding. You know, she's tough on crime when it suited her. Then she's a criminal justice reformer when that. When the winds shift and that no longer suits her. So I have a lot of questions about policy. Putting that aside, you know, putting all of that aside, of course it would be amazing to see the first woman, and especially the first woman of color. Like, of course that would be incredibly meaningful to me, to my daughters. It would be incredibly meaningful in the same way that seeing Barack Obama ascend was incredibly meaningful, I think, not just to people who were adamant supporters of her, of him, but to the country at large. So I've been happy, I've been happy that there hasn't been so much talk this time of, like, the country's too racist and sexist to elect a black woman because there's no doubt that those horrors and bigotry exist. But when you lean into that too hard, it also becomes very self defeating where then you're telling a woman or a black woman that's going to come after like, oh, this isn't possible. You can't do it. I was Actually thinking that they might use that to block Kamala from the nomination of, like, oh, gosh, we would love to have black women, but unfortunately the country just. They just won't go for it. And it's Donald Trump we've got to go with, you know, J.B. pritzker or whatever. So I think the way it's been discussed thus far has been good, positive, acknowledging the challenges and realities, which are quite real, but also not instantly throwing in the towel. Self defeatist. Like, you know, manifesting well, you know, it'd be nice, but that's not possible.
- [34:14]
Danielle Moody
My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spending. My friends still laugh at me to this day.
- [34:29]
Crystal Ball
Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com campaign. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be, to be.
- [34:47]
Danielle Moody
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- [35:16]
Torre
I think it's valuable to say racism and sexism will be a hurdle for her. And how do we speak to them?
- [35:24]
Crystal Ball
Overcome.
- [35:24]
Torre
What do we do? And what do we do with that? That's fine. But there is also the conversation of before she became the nominee, essentially, we can't risk it with her because there are racist and sexist people out there. And I made the point on Twitter that saying that is in and of itself racist and sexist because you are centering the opinion of racist and sexist people and you're saying, well, I'm not racist and sexist.
- [35:50]
Crystal Ball
We're gonna get you a veto over our politics.
- [35:53]
Torre
Exactly, Exactly. We're kowtowing. We're abiding by what they want rather than saying, well, no, that is a wrong way of looking at the world and we're not gonna respect that. Right. We're asked to put too much respect on what bigots think and making sure that they feel included. That is centering racist and sexist people.
- [36:13]
Danielle Moody
Yeah, I think that's well said and it's funny, though, because I've seen over the last several hours that we have been kind of unpacking this news. A lot of white women, prominent white women on social media, like Shannon Watts of Moms Demand, put out an entire thread on what white women need to do in this moment in order to not make the same mistakes from 2016 and 2020 and to use points of privilege and their ability to gather and speak to one another and make this a moment that is about women, that isn't just about women of color, isn't just about black women, but is about women and where we are, where we will end up under a Trump regime. And so I think that it is important for other white women to say out loud to each other, like, we got this this time. Let us organize this time. Let us not just, you know, rely on, oh, Hillary Clinton. She looks like us. So I guess we'll, you know, we'll make it work. Like, no, let us do the hard work of organizing and delivering every single week so that we get. So that we make this happen so that we don't. I would love to see that 53% be less. I'm not going to say that it's going to be, you know, remarkably less, but I would like it not to grow, which is what we saw from 2016 to 2020.
- [37:47]
Crystal Ball
I think you have a real shot at because of abortion. Not so much because of Kamala Harris identity, which, I mean, again, in my opinion, the policy is the more important and, for me, more inspiring piece than any particular identity, but because abortion is so front and center and because it's so real and it's been, you know, we. We lived in this fantasy world for, oh, the arc of. The immoral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. And I really believe that. I do not believe that shit anymore. There is nothing that is guaranteed.
- [38:21]
Danielle Moody
Damn.
- [38:21]
Crystal Ball
We watched the rights be taken away. Yeah, we see the way we're backsliding. And not. And not only on abortion, but you see the direction that this Supreme Court has had it in, as one example. I mean, the. The world is. And not just the United States, the world is on a very scary precipice, and it's very uncertain the direction that we're heading in. But what we've seen in the election results and the special elections and ballot initiatives, et cetera, is that women in particular, but people in general are galvanized by the rights that are being taken away and the rights that are being taken away from women, because it isn't just about women. It is about families. It's about bodily autonomy. It's about medical choice. It's about all of those things which obviously most directly impacts women, but cuts across and I think also just the. The really shocking grappling with this right that my mother took for granted is now being taken from me and my daughter. Like, that is a scary situation. So I already feel like there's a heightened sense of the importance, which is why, again, you see this flood of enthusiasm, flood of excitement of like, my God, we're gonna actually be able to beat this guy. We've actually got a shot to beat this guy. It's not just the doom march to November. We could really do this thing.
- [39:44]
Torre
Danielle, without discussing the existential threat to democracy that is the other side, what do you say to black folks who say, yeah, but she was a cop or she is a cop.
- [39:57]
Danielle Moody
Do you want to be in a camp? Like, I just. You know what I'm saying?
- [40:00]
Torre
But that's traffic. But that's true.
- [40:03]
Danielle Moody
I know you just said not to do that. Look, I think that there are many policies that Kamala Harris had put forward to try and at the day and age in which she was an ag, to try and offer some types of reforms into the criminal justice system and make California a model. There were things that she did to try and lower recidivism. There were things that she did to not prosecute forced sex workers. Right. Those young girls that were trafficked and forced into sex work were being arrested and jailed for prostitution. Right. And this was not a choice of theirs. Right. So I think that, yes, she was indeed a top cop, however you want to do it. But she also has been in community trying to find ways and avenues to change our criminal justice system. And I think that what we have to do is recognize that that isn't a system that is going to change overnight. That that is something that is about being able to see opportunity and chipping away and looking at how do we decrease recidivism? How do we, you know, increase community policing and decrease. Right. The amount of cops that we see in neighborhood, in black neighborhoods and neighborhoods of color. How do we hold cops accountable? She was writing, right, The George Floyd, you know, the George Floyd bill that we never saw come to fruition. Right? But like, she was. She was a part of that process in 2020, when she was still a senator and before she was on the ticket. So I think that there are things that can be held up to make a rebuttal to those, but she was A cop statements that I do hear every so often.
- [41:56]
Torre
It's more nuanced than she was a cop. That's one thing that I see people trying to cling to in this moment. The few people who are like, I'm not excited, they're like, I don't like the way she laughs and she was a cop. And I'm like, we have to grow beyond these mugs.
- [42:11]
Crystal Ball
Captivating. Like, her record in California was not good. She clearly, as Danielle said, she reflected the time. The sense among Democrats then, and I'm sure, especially as a black woman, was like, I got a show, I'm tough on these criminals and I'm anti drug, all that stuff. And she played the part. You know, it is a real. It is. That track record is very real. Now, if you're the Trump campaign trying to prosecute that case, number one, I think they're going to be way more interested in the messaging of, like, she wants to defund the police and she's a radical lefty. I believe they'll try to do some micro targeting maybe on black radio or with mailers in black communities of, oh, but Trump did first step act. And look at what Kamala was prosecuting Moms who had truant kids and throwing people in jail for smoking weed. I just don't know that that type of super specific micro targeting is really that effective at this point because so much politics is not local anymore, it's national. So they're either going to have to pick, Kamala's a cop and, you know, you shouldn't vote for her because she's a cop, or they're going to have to pick. Kamala actually loves criminals and, you know, we'll set them all free, et cetera. I think they're more likely to go in that direction. So perhaps, you know, to the extent that, that people are running around online reminding folks of, hey, actually, Kamala is a cop, it actually may play pretty well with the, you know, it does, unfortunately, it does swing voters.
- [43:41]
Torre
Potential advantage there in that his whole point is being tough on crime. So now you're prosecuting her for being tough on crime, too.
- [43:49]
Crystal Ball
Tough on crime.
- [43:50]
Torre
Right. Isn't that what you do?
- [43:51]
Danielle Moody
Because now you're an actual criminal.
- [43:53]
Crystal Ball
Yeah. I mean, listen, we don't expect logical consistency for them. I'm just not. I just think that in this day, and you have to pick Elaine, you're not going to be able to really get away with both. And the bigger hurdle for her will be they want to paint her as coastal liberal out of touch elite, complicit in the dystopian hellscape that they paint California as being. That's the direction they want to go in with her more than, you know, she was going after moms whose kids were truant and she was too tough on crime.
- [44:27]
Danielle Moody
CRYSTAL Funny, because I didn't know New York was in the middle of the country. But again, you talk, you talk about, like the consistent, right.
- [44:34]
Crystal Ball
Don't need any logical.
- [44:35]
Danielle Moody
Don't need any logical.
- [44:36]
Crystal Ball
DANIELLE.
- [44:39]
Torre
Crystal, we've been sort of, we touched on this issue a little bit, but could Kamala be substantively different on Israel and Gaza, or is the policy really set by the institution of the United States government and one operator of the government to the next is not going to really prosecuted that differently?
- [45:01]
Crystal Ball
No, she could be different. I mean, the area where the president has the most power and control is foreign policy. And so if Biden had at any point picked up the phone and said, you're done, no more weapons shipments, I'm withholding, drawing, withdrawing my diplomatic cover for you at the UN Next time Iran sends drone strikes your way, you're on your own, it's over. And we know that because, number one, you have Israeli generals and military officials saying as much. Number two, the last time that there was Israeli, you know, strikes in, in Gaza, Biden did pick up the phone and say, all right, we're done, and it was over. So, yeah, they could on Gaza, she could definitely be a lot different than Joe Biden. You know, the economic policy, anything you pass through Congress, obviously that's a different view. Who's in the Senate, who's in the House, et cetera. But there are a lot of ways to wield the power of the presidency, and you know that because when we think of Donald Trump getting into office, we know there's a lot of damage that he can do on his own. Even if you have a Democratic House, right, or even if you have a Democratic Senate. So it's a matter of Democrats wanting to wield that power and wield it in ways that are positive for, that are anti war and positive for ordinary Americans versus positive for corporations, rich people and fascists.
- [46:25]
Torre
Perhaps one challenge to that, and I say this as a person who found out later than later in life that I am 30% Jewish, that there are a lot of powerful, interested, concerned, focused Jewish Americans who are very focused on that issue and the protection of Israel. And any major politician is going to be dealing with pressure from those sort of people and their PACs and the Palestinian community does not have the political lobbying power that the Jewish American community does.
- [47:00]
Crystal Ball
I think you make a fair point. I would just to parse for a moment, because it's really not the Jewish American community, it's really Zionist, you know, and the most bedrock, actually the highest approval rating for Benjamin Netanyahu is not Jewish Americans, it's evangelical Americans. So I just want to put that out there because I don't want to get into, like, oh, you know, rich Jews are controlling. It's an ideological orientation. I know, I know you're not saying that. I just want to clarify. Right.
- [47:26]
Torre
Because I don't want to say that's.
- [47:28]
Crystal Ball
What you're saying in any case. So you're not. Obviously, you're correct. I mean, AIPAC dropped how much money.
- [47:38]
Danielle Moody
On Jamal Bowman, was it 20 million?
- [47:41]
Crystal Ball
Record breakout of the race.
- [47:43]
Danielle Moody
Yeah.
- [47:44]
Crystal Ball
And it worked. Right. And it worked not just with him. It was a message to anyone else who's thinking about stepping on a line. This is what you're going to deal with. On the other hand, from an electoral political perspective, number one, overwhelming majority of Americans, including Jewish Americans, are in favor of a cease fire. Number two, we know the way that Joe Biden's numbers have been disastrous among young people, in particular Arab Americans, also is really key in Michigan because of his policy in Gaza. This man was willing to throw away his presidency and hand the White House back to Donald Trump in service of Benjamin Netanyahu's genocide.
- [48:23]
Danielle Moody
So I think, embarrassed him multiple times on the world stage. Yes. And once Donald Trump, I mean, he's coming. He's in the United States right now. Not because Biden invited him. Right. But because Republicans did. Right. As a way to snub Biden, as a way to show him up. Right. And put him in a really intractable position within his own party where this issue has become very fractious and like. But. But to the point that you're making, too, yes, the Palestinian supporters may not have the means, but they absolutely have the numbers and they have the passion. And what we saw catch fire Right. Over the course of the end of the summer term, Right. At universities was one right after the other. Right. And in the eyes, I mean, just, you know, again, so much has happened in that small bit of time since those kids were beaten by police and gassed and all of these things. But it conjured the images of Tiananmen Square. It conjured the images of. Wait a minute. We're okay with protests that are happening in Hong Kong, for instance, that university students are doing. But when they do it in our own country, somehow that's problematic. And so again, while they don't have the economic power, I think that they have the power of presence and the power of the media. And I mean social media, not traditional corporatized media, but social media on their side to showcase. Wait a minute, we can't claim to be fighting for democracy in this country and then allow apartheid to take place in another one.
- [50:02]
Crystal Ball
Yeah. To answer your question more directly, Tori, I believe at this point just a naked. Even if you think these people don't have any morals, all they care about is political calculus. I believe at this point a naked political calculus would argue in favor of ending the genocide and forcing Israel to, you know, come to a ceasefire and not giving this right wing terrorist carte blanche to do whatever he wants in Gaza. I think for a. First of all, Biden is very ideologically dug in on the issue. He still has whatever view of Israel he had when he visited in like friggin 1973. And he, he is a genuine true believer. But number two, his politics were formed in an era where, you're right, there was never any punishment. The only punishment would be from being not sufficiently pro Israel enough. I think since Kamala is younger and has a more agile mind at this point than Joe Biden, I think she can more accurately weigh the political calculus and also has just come up in a community that has a different view of this conflict too. Begin with. So yes, the pressure from the Bill Ackmans of the world and these other people would be intense. Yes, APAC would be kicking, screaming, very upset if there was any real break in the policy. But you know, the Bill Ackmans of the world want Trump anyway because he's willing to do absolutely anything that they want him to do, including just saying, hey, go ahead, take over all of the west bank, we don't care. You can, you know, we'll look the other way and you can do whatever the hell you want.
- [51:38]
Torre
Danielle. I see some people out here saying, well, Kamala will win if she picks the right vp. And it makes my skin crawl because we've seen tons of studies over many decades that the VP nominee almost never has any potential to have a positive impact on a ticket. And there's very little evidence that they would have a negative impact on the ticket at all.
- [52:04]
Crystal Ball
Don't pick Sarah Palin.
- [52:07]
Danielle Moody
Well, I was gonna say, I was like there was one that made people, you know, not feel that great.
- [52:13]
Torre
Well, I don't, I mean, I don't know that the McCain potential people, McCain voters look down at. We look down at Sarah Palin, but people who would vote for McCain did. I mean, that party has gone in the direction of Sarah Palin since then and not in the direction of McCain. And right now, Sarah Palin could get the nomination way before a reanimated John McCain.
- [52:34]
Danielle Moody
But yeah, because I mean, she was the more palpable version, I guess, of Trumpism. Of Trumpism.
- [52:42]
Torre
Does it matter?
- [52:43]
Danielle Moody
Joe 6 does it matter if we.
- [52:45]
Torre
Take the governor of Pennsylvania or the governor of North Carolina or the governor of the senator, does it matter?
- [52:52]
Danielle Moody
I think that it matters. And I hate to say this, I think that it matters in the sense that what did my co host Wajahat say? America wants the 80s black cop, white cop, buddy movie. They need that and they want to Joe Biden and Barack Obama kind of gave us that one, two punch. They were cool together, they were friends together and we liked seeing them together. And so I think to that extent that choosing, you know, one of, what is it, the five people that are being floated, I think that it could make a difference. Particularly I don't think that this is going to happen. But, you know, anything is possible in this day and age. But if it is Whitmer, right, Then you got a two woman ticket. I mean, that's like, I think that that would be like, whoa, you know, and I don't know if that again, is too much history, right. Like it's too much history making at one time. But I do think that, you know, you have folks like Shapiro, you have folks like Kelly. I think, I think that, you know, they, Kelly in particular, I think is somebody that would be interested. Right.
- [54:18]
Torre
In Arizona.
- [54:19]
Danielle Moody
Mark. Yeah, Mark Kelly in Arizona. I think that that would be interesting. And the reason I'll say this is because he is such a stark contrast to the white toxic male masculinity issue that on that is being pushed on the other side. This is a man who is a veteran, who is a former astronaut, who has stood by his wife, who was shot, husband of somebody who is tragically shot and injured and a former congresswoman. I think that he ticks a lot of boxes of what we want in 21st century masculinity, that they don't have a match for that.
- [55:05]
Torre
But we vote for the top of the ticket.
- [55:08]
Danielle Moody
Sure. Yes.
- [55:08]
Torre
And it's not like, well, if LeBron could only team with Kevin Durant instead of Russell Westbrook, he would get over the. No, Kamala will win or lose based on what Kamala does, which doesn't I don't think the science really doesn't really include who she chooses.
- [55:26]
Crystal Ball
I disagree. Tore. I disagree. Because if you look at. Okay, so I think Joe Biden was an important pick for Barack Obama because the knock on Barack Obama, first of all, it's the, like, he's the normal white guy. Guys, everybody relax, right? But I think more importantly, perhaps he had all of this record and relationship in the Senate and it gave people a sense of like, all right, Obama's. There's an adult, like, he's new in town, but he's got this seasoned hand next to him. And I think that was important. I think McCain's pick was disastrous. Not because obviously McCain Palin supporters were McCain Palin supporters, but there was a lack of McCain's. McCain's thing was being like the adult in the room. And there was such a lack of seriousness in that choice that people who were swing voters were like, what? Why? Why would you pick this person? Right. This is a disaster. It was. It was such a catastrophe. So I think that was very detrimental. I think the Trump Pence pick was important. You know, it's easy to forget now. Trump was on very shaky ground with evangelicals. He wasn't their pick. His personal life, affairs, porn star, whatever. Like you can do understand why he wasn't their pick. If the VP mattered and helped to.
- [56:40]
Torre
Shore that up, if the VP mattered more, you would see more nominees choosing swing state VP nominees. And we don't see that Pence is Indiana.
- [56:53]
Crystal Ball
Right.
- [56:54]
Torre
You know, Paul Ryan was Wisconsin. That was not a slink.
- [56:58]
Crystal Ball
Yeah.
- [56:59]
Danielle Moody
I think it's identity. Yeah.
- [57:00]
Crystal Ball
And that was. I mean, that was the Kamala Harris pick. Right. Was like, let me help shore up this key identity group.
- [57:08]
Torre
But Biden had more. Biden did better with black voters than Kamala did.
- [57:13]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, I know. Well, you know, I have. I don't agree 100%. I think it's racist to be like, oh, black people. Vote for the black person. Because obviously there are other. Like, you're not just going to show up and vote for Tim Scott if he's the guy. Right. But I do think that that was some of the thinking on the Biden ticket was that this will create a level of enthusiasm. And I don't think that that was. I don't think that that was totally wrong. Yeah. Because it's one thing in a presidential contest where you do have the thought of, is the country going to go for the. Like, I might like Kamala. I might be excited about this. Is the country going to go for Whatever. It's another thing when she's on the ticket and she's kind of got the ticket to the dance.
- [57:51]
Torre
One person we haven't really talked about much today is Barack Obama. And I think that we're starting to see sort of the deep story seeping out. This was all Barack Obama. That Barack saw the debate and was like, my God, he can't win, and started pushing people out the door, like, go talk to him, go talk to the media. We have to get him out. Is that the way you see it, Crystal?
- [58:23]
Crystal Ball
I would go back even further. I mean, Barack Obama, first he brings Joe Biden to the dance as vp, as we're just discussing, right. Joe Biden uses his credibility as the first black president's VP to help, you know, deepen his standing with black voters. Then Bernie Sanders looks like he's gonna romp to the nomination. Obama. Obama makes some calls behind the scenes to help get people to drop out at a key time to consolidate around Joe Biden. So he helps bring Biden to the dance in terms of the presidency that way. And then, yeah, immediately after that debate performance, who's one of the first people out of the gates that night to say, this can't continue? David Axelrod. Then it's the pod save bros who are Obama world people who are strenuously making the case. Then you get the George Clooney op ed, George Clooney being a close confidant of Barack Obama and donor to Barack Obama. And we learned that, oh, he talked to Obama before he put this out. So I think it was him and I think it was Nancy Pelosi. These are two of the most effective wielders of power within the Democratic Party for a variety of reasons, because of their own personal standing. Pelosi also primarily because of her intelligence about how to work the levers and also her closeness with the Democratic donor class. So when I knew the two of them were against him, I thought it was very likely that he was going to go because it would be difficult to sustain this sort of coordinated assault from both of them.
- [59:56]
Torre
Danielle, was this Obama?
- [59:58]
Danielle Moody
You know, it's. So I'm listening to Crystal and I'm like, oh, you're convincing me in a way that like, I had, like, honestly that I hadn't been. That I hadn't been convinced before. I think that. I definitely think that Obama saw this debate and was just like, we're fucked. Right? Like, if he stayed, like, we can't do this. I think that he was like everybody else, like, we'll make it through. People are not excited, but Donald Trump is so bad, it won't matter. So I do think that he has been working the refs and working behind the scenes. I think where people are finding their disappointment right now is not recognizing that Barack Obama is a behind the scenes operative. And that is where he prefers to be since leaving the White House as opposed to being in front where one, he puts himself and his family still at risk right over this very volatile and very violent of Republican Party. And so I think that he finds more comfort doing what he needs to do behind the scenes. And I think that this will all be his lack of endorsement right now, will all be water under the bridge when he gives what will most likely be a riveting convention endorsement speech. And then people will be like, we love Obama. Obama's, you know, like, I feel like he's playing the long game right now and the behind the scenes game. And I feel like we need to give space and credit to that.
- [61:38]
Torre
It reminded me that Kamala will probably have three presidents stand up and speak on her behalf. Right. President Clinton as well. Trump had. I think the number is zero. Correct. Not even the people who were with him last time are still with him. Um, but yeah, Obama does a lot by not saying any. He doesn't need to say anything at this point. Some people are chirping about where's his endorsement. He is perhaps smarter to let others pull and coalesce in so that it doesn't come from the top, but it feels like it comes from the bottom. And then come around later and say, you know, let's all love her together. But he doesn't need to be out and about right now chanting for her.
- [62:24]
Danielle Moody
No, no. Okay.
- [62:26]
Crystal Ball
She clearly doesn't need him at this point. I mean, even it would take him really going to the mat for like, I'm all in for Gretchen and I'm calling delegate. I mean, that's where we are at this point. Like, she's on a glide path to the nomination. So I don't know what his thinking is. I wouldn't doubt that he has some questions about her electability. Because if you're just looking at the polls and the data, you know, there were other candidates that were polling better against Donald Trump. Or to your point, about at swing state, you know, Gretchen Whitmer does bring in Michigan. Josh Shapiro does bring in Pennsylvania. Very likely. So he may have been sort of waiting to see how this all plays out and picking his spots. I don't know. That's just my guess. Based on how he operates with regards to Biden. He and Biden have always had like their, their friends, right? All that was real and the meals that together and the close family, all that's real. But there was also a tension there because they're very different stylistically. Politicians. You know, Obama's this uber intellectual Ivy League. He's surrounded by this team super, you know, high minded, like intellectuals. That's his space. And he didn't have a lot of use for the down and dirty, like political wrangling. That was Joe Biden's bread and butter. Now that's part of what made them a good team. But Biden, coming from the state school, having a little bit of a chip on his shoulder, felt condescended to and looked down on by the Obama people. There was a lot of resentment about the fact that Obama chooses Hillary over him to run in 2016. I think Obama made the wrong choice. I think Biden was a better candidate in 2016, by the way, and had a better chance at beating Donald Trump. So he held onto that resentment. And then in 2020, Obama didn't endorse Biden for a long time until there was no other alternative left who could credibly take Bernie Sanders on a contention. And that's when he makes his move. So there is a lot, there is tension there. And so I don't think Obama wanted to be seen as pressuring him publicly because that would trigger a, you know, a backlash like digging in from Biden, which it did anyway, because he saw the behind the scenes maneuvering and he was very resentful of that and his family was very resentful.
- [64:34]
Torre
I mean, Obama can't basically speak twice in a process like this. He's gonna have one moment where he makes it known the way he feels, and then he will recede. And he only needs to speak once. But speaking too early diminishes his power. Right? He wants to wait until the last moment in the window of it mattering for him to say what he thinks.
- [64:58]
Danielle Moody
Yeah, I think I agree. And I think that that's right. And again, to Crystal's point, we don't need it right now.
- [65:05]
Torre
Right?
- [65:05]
Danielle Moody
If we were in a place of disarray and chaos, then we were going to need Obama to come in and kind of do the please help us. Right? Like, please, please help us, please save us. But because, you know, again, whether it's, if it's, if it's him and Pelosi pulling the levers behind the scenes, one right after the other, right after the other. Endorse, Endorse, endorse, endorse. Right. Like, and so I think to me, that is much more powerful than the Obama statement. And then we're waiting. Are they gonna listen to him? Does he still have the power? Is there still chatter? Right. Like, I think it was different again, for. I think it was more important, let's say, for a Bill Clinton and a Hillary Clinton to come out with their statement right away. Because again, for God knows whatever reason, her name was still floating around. So to say, you know, so to say, like, unequivocally, we're with her. Right. And this is what we're doing. Much more important and impactful. Yes. You know, Sunday afternoon and let Obama do what he's going to do later.
- [66:15]
Crystal Ball
And they don't want to be seen. Obama, because of being black, has more, like, leeway.
- [66:22]
Torre
Mm.
- [66:23]
Crystal Ball
Whereas the Clintons do not want to be seen as, like, being reluctant to get behind the black woman. So they have an incentive in that direction, too. Of, like, let me make it clear we're good with this. You know, we're not trying to angle for, like, you know, our white lady or Hillary herself or whatever. It is funny what you mentioned, though, because Republicans have this obsession with the idea that out of nowhere, either Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama is going to be put on the ticket. And all these conspiracy theories like that constantly come up about. No, it's really. At the end of the day, they're going to pull Kamala, they're going to pull Joe Biden, and it's going to be Michelle Obama that they put on the ticket. I find it very interesting psychologically.
- [67:03]
Danielle Moody
Were they not around for eight years.
- [67:05]
Torre
Were they not there, Michelle Obama remains a dream of some sliver of the left that she will come out of wherever they live and say, fine, I'll run the country. She doesn't one and stop trying to make fetch happen.
- [67:21]
Crystal Ball
I know that's the thing is, like, I do. I guess I think that's where it comes from is because she has such a high approval rating, they know she would be very difficult to defeat because she's. She's a cultural brand. She's more of a cultural brand at this point than a political brand. And so I think that's where it comes from is this deep seated terror that, you know, their worst nightmare of Michelle Obama on the ticket may come to.
- [67:44]
Danielle Moody
Let the dream go.
- [67:46]
Torre
You know, one more thing. I mean, I haven't checked, and I'm sure Crystal knows the answer to this, but generally, when women have Ascended to the top of big global countries. They are either the wife or the daughter of an incredibly important man in that country. Right. And Kamala breaks that. I don't want to call it a tradition, but that trend, that mold.
- [68:14]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, that is. That is an interesting. That is a very interesting point. The other thing that they find in corporate settings and in political settings is that typically women are brought in as a first when there's been a big mess created.
- [68:29]
Torre
The country is falling apart.
- [68:30]
Crystal Ball
Yeah. It's like, all right, let's bring in the lady.
- [68:34]
Danielle Moody
You need a gym.
- [68:35]
Crystal Ball
Take care of business. Yeah, yeah, you need a gym and.
- [68:37]
Danielle Moody
You need a janitor.
- [68:38]
Crystal Ball
It creates very difficult. It does create very difficult positions, though, because, you know, if you're brought in to, like, pick up the pieces after whatever disaster has unfolded, like, that is, on its face, going to be a very difficult political circumstance that you're walking into. And so I do think if it is Kamala Harris that wins in November, you know, that'll be in some ways the easiest of her battles. Because the country is so unhappy with the direction is so divided, is so, you know, we're at such a transition point. It's going to be difficult for whoever walks into this office.
- [69:18]
Torre
So much of the problem that you outline there is Donald Trump. And just defeating Donald Trump alone would do a lot of good for the country.
- [69:30]
Crystal Ball
It would do a lot of good, but it wouldn't fix everything.
- [69:32]
Danielle Moody
It wouldn't fix everything.
- [69:33]
Crystal Ball
He didn't come out of nowhere, unfortunately. There's a reason for his rise. There's a reason why he garnered so much support. There's a reason why his supporters are so diehard.
- [69:42]
Torre
He is a unique political animal in that he can pull together a coalition that there is no other Republican. We saw this coming from what, the Tea Party, then morphs into the alt right, then morphs into Maga. But DeSantis, J.D. vance, there's nobody else who could do the Trump thing and pull together the Trump coalition and get elected president.
- [70:07]
Crystal Ball
He is a, like, a unique political talent, and it's deeply unfortunate that he's on the side that he is, because, yeah, I mean, you know, he's. He's the showman.
- [70:18]
Torre
Yeah.
- [70:19]
Crystal Ball
He captivates people. He still has that it factor. And now J.D. vance or his fail sons, Don Jr. Who I like, they don't come close to that. But I also feel like he's one of these characters. Like this man is. I should be careful saying this after the, you know, assassination attempt, but I just feel like he's going to live forever. Like, I feel like he's going to be running again in 2028, 2032. Like this is never going to end. Or then he's going to pass the torch to Baron or Don Jr. Or someone else. I don't know. I just feel like we're never going to be ready Rid of the curse of Donald Trump.
- [70:50]
Danielle Moody
I, you know, I. This is the one thing that I will say I do disagree with that because I think that no one has, for lack of a better term, the kind of cultish charisma that he has. And we saw that with the Republican primary and how embarrassing. Everybody thought that DeSantis was gonna be the heir apparent and he just embarrassed the fuck out of himself.
- [71:12]
Crystal Ball
But.
- [71:14]
Danielle Moody
So I think that if Donald Trump is beat, while I don't believe that the people that have funded and are pulling the strings and created the bullpen blueprint around Project 2025 will go away, I don't think that they will have the same grip that Donald Trump has, which will make the movement begin to disintegrate with the power that it's been able that it's been able to have because it's been around one man and not a group of people.
- [71:53]
Torre
Thank you so much to Crystal and Danielle for a great interview and thanks to you for listening. Torre show gives you fuel to power your dreams because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into a life you never imagined. You can make your dreams a reality. And maybe this show can help. You can find me on Twitter ore and on Instagram or show Toray shows written by me, Torre, and produced by Ashley Hobbs. Our editor is Ryan Woodhull. Our booker is Ray Holiday, and we're distributed by DCP Entertainment. And we will be back on Wednesday with more amazing guests because the man can't shut us down.