Ask Us Anything: Amy Storm on navigating complex contractor relationships

Summary

Trade Tales Podcast Summary

Title: Ask Us Anything: Amy Storm on Navigating Complex Contractor Relationships
Host: Kaitlin Petersen, Business of Home
Release Date: June 11, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Trade Tales, Kaitlin Petersen engages with Amy Storm to address a common yet challenging issue faced by interior designers: managing complex relationships with contractors. Amy shares her personal experiences, strategies for effective collaboration, and insights gained from her own projects to help designers navigate similar situations successfully.

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The Challenge: Navigating Difficult Contractor Relationships

A designer reached out with concerns about working with a contractor who was unresponsive and inconsistent, threatening the quality and timeliness of her projects. She feared that continuing to work with this contractor could compromise future projects.

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Amy Storm’s Experience with a Problematic Contractor

Amy begins by recounting her own experience with a challenging contractor during one of her first solo projects:

"This project was one of my first as a solo interior designer, and it came through a family friend. The client chose the contractor based on their past commercial work, but unlike others, this contractor was uncommunicative and unreliable."
— Amy Storm, [00:51]

Key Issues Faced:

1. Lack of Communication:

   • Amy highlights the contractor's failure to maintain regular communication, which is crucial for project coordination.

     "I started requesting the construction schedule, and they didn’t respond to emails or calls."
     — Amy Storm, [02:49]

2. Project Delays:

   • The contractor missed deadlines by approximately a month, leading to last-minute installations and compromised quality.

     "When I came into town for the install, the site was still a full construction zone."
     — Amy Storm, [02:12]

3. Remote Management Challenges:

   • Managing the project remotely prevented Amy from performing regular site visits, exacerbating communication issues.

     "Being a distance project meant I couldn't check in on the site every week."
     — Amy Storm, [02:29]

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Strategies for Managing Contractor Relationships

Amy offers several strategies to help designers handle and prevent similar challenges:

1. Set Clear Expectations from the Start:

   • Establish detailed project timelines and communication protocols to ensure all parties are aligned.

     "Setting expectations from the outset helps prevent misunderstandings."
     — Amy Storm, [05:04]

2. Transparent and Inclusive Communication:

   • Keep all stakeholders informed through regular updates and inclusive communication channels.

     "Keeping everyone on emails maintains accountability and ensures everyone is on the same page."
     — Amy Storm, [25:27]

3. Implement Documentation and Sign-offs:

   • Use a sign-off policy for critical project stages to confirm that all parties approve of the progress and details.

     "Having a sign-off policy helps keep things on target and raises red flags when timelines slip."
     — Amy Storm, [32:31]

4. Proactive Problem-Solving:

   • Address issues immediately to mitigate larger problems and keep the project on track.

     "When you see something going wrong, have an honest conversation to fix it before it escalates."
     — Amy Storm, [34:09]

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Managing Remote Projects Effectively

Amy discusses her approach to handling remote projects to ensure they run smoothly:

1. Travel Planning and Expenses:

   • Clearly outline travel expenses in contracts, ensuring clients understand the costs associated with site visits.

     "I do not include travel expenses in our fees; they are covered by the client to avoid unexpected costs."
     — Amy Storm, [28:36]

2. Regular Updates and Documentation:

   • Utilize local architects for weekly site photos and updates to stay informed about the project's progress.

     "Job site pictures help us stay informed and adjust our timelines accordingly."
     — Amy Storm, [30:52]

3. Buffer Times in Contracts:

   • Include buffer periods in project timelines to accommodate unexpected delays without compromising overall schedules.

     "Including a buffer period ensures that even if there are delays, the project stays within the agreed timeframe."
     — Amy Storm, [28:36]

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Personal Insights: Lessons from Amy’s Own Home Project

Amy shares how managing her own home project provided deeper empathy and improved her professional approach:

1. Emotional Sensitivity:

   • Living in a designed space enhanced her understanding of clients' stress during transitions.

     "It gives you that extra level of sensitivity to what homeowners are going through."
     — Amy Storm, [10:51]

2. Client Engagement:

   • Introducing small gifts to clients during quieter project phases helped maintain connection and reduce stress.

     "We send them a little bag that says, 'Keep calm and trust your interior designer,' which helps keep the connection alive."
     — Amy Storm, [13:10]

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Building Trust Through Financial Management

A pivotal lesson Amy learned emphasizes the importance of meticulous financial management:

1. Advice Received:

   • "Get your ducks in a row. Know what you’re talking about when you're talking prices."
     — Amy Storm, [41:42]

2. Implementing Financial Controls:

   • Employ staff such as bookkeepers or fractional CFOs to ensure financial accuracy and trustworthiness.

     "Having the right programming and staff has been a game changer for our project's ease and client trust."
     — Amy Storm, [44:21]

3. Transparency with Clients:

   • Maintain open communication about budget and financial decisions to build and sustain client trust.

     "When you manage clients' money responsibly, it establishes a foundation of trust that's crucial for project success."
     — Amy Storm, [41:42]

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Conclusion: Empowering Designers to Navigate Contractor Challenges

Amy Storm’s experiences and insights provide a comprehensive guide for interior designers facing complex contractor relationships. By setting clear expectations, maintaining transparent communication, and managing finances meticulously, designers can safeguard their projects' quality and timelines while fostering strong, collaborative partnerships.

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Notable Quotes

• On Setting Expectations:

  "Setting expectations from the outset helps prevent misunderstandings."
  — Amy Storm, [05:04]

• On Proactive Problem-Solving:

  "When you see something going wrong, have an honest conversation to fix it before it escalates."
  — Amy Storm, [34:09]

• On Financial Management:

  "Get your ducks in a row. Know what you’re talking about when you're talking prices."
  — Amy Storm, [41:42]

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This episode serves as an invaluable resource for interior designers seeking to enhance their project management skills and navigate the complexities of contractor relationships effectively.

Transcript

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of business of Home. Welcome to Ask Us Anything, a new show where I'll be tapping former Trade Tales guests to answer all of your questions about building a better design business. Some weeks we'll be workshopping a crisis. In others, we'll take a step back to talk about the big picture. Things like embracing change, hiring, or how to level up. No question is out of bounds. No question is too large or too. And we're keeping it confidential so that this is always a safe space to air your frustrations and share your fears. This week, I'm excited to field a question from a designer looking for advice as she navigates a complicated relationship with a contractor.

[Amy Storm]

This project, it was actually one of my first projects as a solo interior designer, which was really exciting. And it came to me through a family friend. And the client had chosen this contract contractor, I think, just because they had worked with them before on other commercial projects. We started working and I had had the experience with other hospitality contractors who were like, on top of it. OAC calls every week and emails if there was ever a question. And I just didn't see that on this project.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Our question asker wanted to be a team player, but it quickly became clear that her partners weren't on the same page. Now she's worried that working with this contractor again could cause the quality of her next project to suffer.

[Amy Storm]

I was trying to come into it with the thought of, like, I'm not the expert here and I want to rely on my partners and kind of get their advice and really respect their trade. So I didn't want to overstep in any way. But it kind of got me into a little bit of a pickle as we moved along and just being kind of in the dark. It was a distance project, which means I couldn't go check in on the site every week. And so we ended up with the install being scheduled and the site was confirmed to be ready. And I came into town the week of the install and it was still a construction zone.

[Unknown]

How much more work was there to do? Like, how much did they miss the deadline by?

[Amy Storm]

They probably needed another month. Like, when I tell you, I walked into the construction site and they had done full height doors. They hadn't ordered the doors yet and they were putting headers over the doors. Like, I'm telling you, it was like a full construction zone.

[Unknown]

Oh.

[Amy Storm]

So it was too late to reschedule the trade. So I had like, my drapery workroom come in and install the rods and take the drapery out. The furniture installers came and just put plastic over everything. So we made it work. But it was, to say the least, not ideal.

[Unknown]

When did it start to, like, feel like it was going off the rails? Was it pretty immediate?

[Amy Storm]

Yeah, it was one of those things where I'm like, very type A. I love to be a planner. And from the beginning, I started requesting the construction schedule and they didn't respond to emails I would call. They were like, you know, I'll get back to you. And it was kind of from the beginning, a little bit of pulling teeth on the planning process.

[Unknown]

Was this kind of just between you and the contractor or was it something.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That the client had visibility to?

[Unknown]

Like, could they see that this person.

[Caitlin Peterson]

They loved was really falling short on their end and that it didn't have.

[Unknown]

Anything necessarily to do with you?

[Amy Storm]

Yeah, I think at the beginning, the client kind of thought that it might be a full partner deal where everyone was kind of lagging. And once they started probing around, thankfully, they realized that my job was handled. I sent the construction set and furniture was ordered. So, yeah, thankfully, as the process moved along, they kind of realized that it was a partner issue.

[Unknown]

What are the biggest questions you have that you're looking for guidance on or.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Where you want answers on how other.

[Unknown]

People kind of structure this part of their business?

[Amy Storm]

I guess my biggest question would be, like, especially on the distance projects where you can't be hands on boots on the ground every week, is how to coordinate with the partners on the project, Specifically the contractor, obviously, and partially the architect as well, and not feel like you're overstepping.

[Unknown]

Are you comfortable sort of like throwing a wrench in the works to say, like, this isn't working and we need to all start working together again before.

[Caitlin Peterson]

We keep moving forward?

[Amy Storm]

Yeah, I think so. I think my problem would be knowing when to step in and do that.

[Unknown]

Totally. How bad does it have to get? Right?

Right.

[Amy Storm]

Like, I don't want there to be one missed email and I'm like, on everyone, you know?

[Caitlin Peterson]

Totally.

[Unknown]

Have you had other experiences that have sort of mirrored this one since then, or is this really the outlier for.

[Amy Storm]

You so far it's really the outlier, but I am worried because I'm working with this contractor again.

[Unknown]

Oh, okay.

[Amy Storm]

I know, I know. It was a project that I just couldn't turn down. It seems like they are hopefully not doing the same process. It's a bigger project, so I think everyone's kind of more on top of things. But, yeah, I've kind of started to see a little bit of the same pattern.

[Unknown]

So we gotta get this guy in.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Shape before the project unfolds. It doesn't matter how buttoned up you are, there is nothing that will derail a project faster than a partner who misses deadlines or never checks emails or works off of old plan sets, or won't give a construction timeline, or in this case, all of the above. The fact that the client loves this contractor only adds to the complexities here, as does the fact that doing this project remotely means our question asker can't use regular site visits to try to.

[Unknown]

Keep everyone in check.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I know so many of you will be able to relate to this dilemma, and with that in mind, I wanted to take an opportunity to answer not only her question about when to weigh in on remote jobs, but also some of the bigger picture questions that her experience surfaces Things like how do you set expectations from the outset of the job, even with contractors like this one? If that doesn't work out, what does it take to make sure that you've protected yourself from the fallout? And how much should you be telling your clients along the way about another pro's failures?

[Unknown]

As we ended our call, I knew.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Just who to connect with to help this designer find her footing. Someone with a thriving design build business who's doing a lot of work far from home. All that and more in just a moment. This week's question is the perfect example of the many ways running a design firm will test you, often in the corners of your business that have very little to do with the actual design work. The personalities you have to manage on a project are challenging enough. Your relationship with your vendors doesn't have to be. Eliminate stress by shopping with four hands when you place an order with four hands, you can rest assured that you're working with partners who understand that you need a level of service that stands up to the challenges of daily life in a design firm. Whether you're building a mood board, placing orders, or tracking your shipment, FourHance has developed tools to ease the administrative lift of pulling a project across the finish line, on time and on budget. FourHance offers a dedicated support team for every part of your shopping journey, from style recommendations to order assistance. And when hiccups do arise, they'll take immediate action and help you make things right for your clients. There's nothing better than knowing that your vendors are in your corner, and that's a guarantee when you're working with Four Hands. Explore the benefits of shopping with Four Hands for your next project at fourhands.com tradetales Today, I'm joined by former Trade Tales guest Amy Storm, who recently completed the construction of her own home in Glen Ellen, Illinois, a project that she worked on in partnership with Lux. The experience gave her a fresh perspective on the client's emotional journey throughout a project. When Amy was on the show the first time, she explained that her firm had started taking on only new construction jobs, which means that communicating with contractors is a constant fixture in her work. Today I thought she'd be the perfect person to answer our question.

[Unknown]

First of all, thank you so much for joining us, Trade Tales listeners. Heard from you early last year when you were racing to the finish line on your own home's renovation, which published in partnership with Lux. Can you tell us a little bit about how that shaped up?

Of course, yes. I was in a mad dash, I think, last time we spoke, getting all of our design documents done and everything. So we. We actually completed construction on our house in about 11 months, which is pretty crazy. But one of the cool things we did for our house is I went around the office with a bowl and I handed everybody, like, I. I had all the room names on a piece of paper, and everybody got to pick a room and. Cause I really wanted my staff to be a part of the design process with our house and experience it kind of on a more personal level. So everybody picked a room to design, and that brought about, like, a ton of in office collaboration. And it was just really cool to see everyone kind of bring their designs. And then we massaged them, you know, to make sure that the design was really fluid and that the house was going to be beautiful. And then, of course, I'm acting as the client, so I'm having kind of the final say and the push and pull each way. And so it was really great. We got the house done. We had a big, beautiful event and celebrated all of the vendors and partnerships that we had on the project, which was really kind of the most overwhelming and flattering thing. When we started it, I was like, who would help us do this? And then we were just completely overwhelmed by the response. And we just had a great time celebrating all of them and letting everybody come and walk through the house and see, you know, how the part they played impacted the design. And since then, we've done some really cool things. We've had two or three really significant fundraisers for awesome charities and organizations in our area. And that's just. It's just been really great to have a place to host those events. And my Girls are home from college, and they're going to enjoy it, and we're going to take a little bit of a deep breath this summer.

So you poured so much of yourself and your team into this home in the way I would imagine that you usually do for your clients. What does it feel like to live in it?

It's so funny. We moved in, and I looked at my husband one day, and I was like, everybody should get to live in an Amy Storm and Company home. This is fabulous. Why did we wait so long to do this? But, no, it's really. I mean, it's. For me, it feels like a great privilege. I never really thought it would happen, and I'm glad that it did. And it's. It's been really great. I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I'm able to say, well, this is how we did our av or this is how we accomplished this kind of detail, or this is where we saved money. These are the things that I did to make it look great, but not overspend, you know, so having just that real lifetime experience and just also the sort of recent experience of dealing with price increases and high prices on everything and sticking to a budget, it just really gives you kind of that extra level of sensitivity to what homeowners are going through. And kind of talked about that within the office. I was like, guys, we have this new perspective of what it feels like to pack up a house and be moving out and the stresses that come along with that and selling the house and the perfect timing and where do you stay in that sort of, like, limbo period. And just, like, the importance of us hitting our deadlines and being super transparent with when things are happening and being aware of sort of, like, the fragile emotional state that people are going through, and they transition from one house to another. And oftentimes, you know, if it's not their second or third house, it's emotional on the level as they're going probably to an upgraded house and they've bought all of the furniture, and it's been four or five months since they said yes to things. They don't really know what they're getting anymore. And so it's kind of overwhelming for them to walk into a house and see all this stuff. And, you know, even though I do it for a living and I knew exactly what we were buying, I still was kind of like, oh, I don't remember picking this up.

I said yes to that.

But I love it.

It's great.

Yeah. So, yeah, it just brought about an Extra layer of sensitivity and insight into sort of that emotional process or emotional side.

Did anything you learned or anything you felt inspire you to change something about your process?

Yes. And really, I mean, every job kind of does that.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Fair.

[Unknown]

But, yes, we instigated some gifts that we send to our clients in different stages along the way of the. Throughout the process. You know, for example, when we do all of the FF&E selections and we get approvals on that, we start ordering. Okay. Now we have, you know, about four months where we're expediting all those orders and completing the design details and getting everything ready for install. And so we go a little quiet. The house is being painted. All of the design decisions have been made, and so we send them this sort of package, this little bag that says, keep calm and trust your interior designer. And inside of it has, you know, it has, like, a shot and, like, some, like, stress putty and other things like that. And so, yeah, I think, like, along the way, what I notice is, like, oh, here's a time where I. I wish I'd like to hear from somebody in the. Even though I'm in the office all day and I know things are happening, it felt like kind of a quiet zone. And so, yeah, we were able to kind of reflect upon those moments after and integrate some. Just some little things to help us feel more connected to the client in those sort of phases where we go a little dark.

What are you most excited about these days? When you walk into work, we have.

Such a wide variety of projects happening that I think that's what makes us the most excited. Like, somebody was in the office a couple weeks ago and said, you know, I really want a Tequila Room. And we were all like, oh, we've never done a Tequila Room before. And then, you know, somebody comes in and says they want something else, and we're like, ooh, we've never done one of those before. And so that really makes it exciting. We also have a really interesting project. It's three projects. It's three siblings from one family that married three siblings from another family.

What?

Yeah. And they each. All three of them are building homes, and they hired us for all three. They hired the same architect and the same builder. And each one of them has a pretty substantially different architectural home design and interior design. And it has been so fun to develop those designs based on their personalities. And they literally, like, you can see all three houses on the same street, and they're so different, and they're all so beautiful in their own unique way. And so that's been really fun within our office to have different teams of people working on different projects and really let them kind of like flourish, you know, with each different client.

Do you have cameras rolling for this? Because that feels like a reality show.

It. It does. And this is a fabulous question, but coming off of our home project, where we did document everything and we spend so much money on videography and all that stuff, I was like, all of this should be captured on video, but I don't know if I have the bandwidth. So I think what we're going to do is go back at the end when all three are done, and we'll probably do, you know, like maybe like a two or three part small series where we can go into the finished homes and we can break down stuff. And of course, we're taking a lot of photography along the way so we can reference old pictures.

So that's great. This is such a tangent, but what did that video layer require of you that was sort of extra and above and beyond during the design build process?

Oh, so much, so much. I mean, if anything, it reaffirmed that I never want to be on tv. Okay, fair enough. I think a lot of people maybe are like, ooh, I wish I had a TV show that would mean everything. But no, it's exhausting. It is hours and hours and hours of filming and voiceover and mental, like processing for like an eight minute video, you know, and we also wanted people to understand what interior designers really do. And I think that, you know, there is a wide range of work that interior designers do and none's better than the other. It's just different. And for our firm, we are like super, super knit into the project from day one all the way. I always say we're there at the beginning, we're there at the end. We're like the last man standing because the architect come and goes, the builder comes and goes, and we're there at the end hanging art on the wall. But we were also there at the beginning really working through the space planning and the exterior finishes and all that kind of stuff. So it was exhausting, it was worthwhile, it was fun and I'm glad it's done.

That's perfect. Well, are you ready to give some advice speaking of sharing what you know?

Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.

Well, this week we are fielding a question from a designer who recently encountered her first nightmare contractor. My conversation with this question asker ended up focusing a lot on how you set expectations with fellow professionals on a job site and how to hold everyone Working on a project accountable. I know when we listen to the clip of the conversation, I think the first thing you said was, oh my gosh, I've been there. What did this bring to mind for you?

Well, here I feel the pain of the designer who asked the question. And you know, from my standpoint, when we go into every project, number one goal is that we're a team player. Right. And it sounded like they had the same sort of mindset as this is a great opportunity to collaborate, to learn from one another, you know, to work together. That that's really, that's what makes a project fun. Right. So that's always sort of the initial mindset.

I love that you said initial. I would imagine sometimes that has to change.

It does, yeah. It does quite often have to change. So there's also this sort of like element of CYA that everybody has. Right. You want to make sure that above and beyond your client knows that you're working on their behalf. You're keeping up with the timeline, you're doing all the things that you need to do so that you're not ever responsible for delaying the job. Like that is like a key element of our office that we are never responsible for delaying the job. And it's very, very aggravating and frustrating when you spend time, you communicate something properly and then somebody just doesn't acknowledge it, doesn't look at it, doesn't pay attention to it. And then it's this sort of last minute thing. It made me think of this example of a project we are working on where we put this beautiful trim and millwork package together. And we spent so much time laboring over the profiles of the moldings and selecting them so they were perfect in detailing them with a perfect dimension. So you never had a shoe sticking out past the casing or you know, that this profile matched this profile, which is a detail that we blew up on another thing. And we gave them this book, we gave them all the specs for the moldings, exactly what size to cut them, and six months later, hey, we're putting up trim tomorrow. What do you guys want? And we were like, ah, what? And it was like, I need these moldings on the job site on Monday so we can't use any of the stuff that you. And it's. It is almost like heartbreaking because the house still looked great, of course, and a lot of people would never walk in and notice. But we knew that all these details that we had sort of labored over just weren't going to happen. And it's just disappointing. You know, you feel like, I want to give you the very best design for your house. And that person just ruined it because they just didn't take the time to acknowledge, you know, the work that was done ahead of time. So that is really frustrating.

That is frustrating. How do you navigate that with the client? Like, does the client find out in that situation?

Yeah. So this is where you have to learn how to be a little passive aggressive, but do it in, like a really respectful and kind way. But yeah, I mean, of course, there are times when, where, first of all, you might. You don't want to be a tattletale. Right. And everybody makes mistakes. There's certainly times that, that we make mistakes and we don't want somebody to go run and tell on us. Right. But there are some things that can be detrimental to a project and, or a timeline which ends up costing the homeowner extra money or a lot of frustration. And in those moments, I just feel like transparency is the best thing. And, and it doesn't even have to be like a bad mouthing situation, but it might be like a, hey, I just want to let you know, this was sent out on this date and this is what we were anticipating. This is the situation now. So how would you like us to go about resolving this? You know, and then they can kind of make that decision. You know what, we're going to wait for those moldings because you sent this out six months ago and we want it done right. Or they might say, like, well, can we find something else? Because we don't really care. So sometimes the things that we hang our hat on are the things that a homeowner doesn't care at all about. And then other times they might care really strongly about something that we're like, it is not an issue. So I think when you have that conversation and you can kind of find out what their mindset is around it, then you can figure out how to step forward and to, you know, resolving it.

[Caitlin Peterson]

What happened with your millwork?

[Unknown]

We had to pick standard moldings out of a box.

Oh, it was so invested. I was hoping it was the other. The other welcome.

It made us really, really not happy in our office. But we just did it with a smile on our face and we kept on moving. So.

[Caitlin Peterson]

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[Unknown]

One of the things that struck me about this designer's scenario is she was second on the job. The contractor is beloved by the clients. He'd been there for a long time before she was brought in. And the clients seem to know that he's sort of the problem, but like him enough to overlook it. What does that require of you as a designer to sort of exist successfully in that environment?

Yeah, that's a good question. The part that's tricky in this. And you know what, I'm going to go back like 10 years ago. I remember I was working on a project for a homeowner and we had done a great design for them, really got along nicely. And the contractor just did some things that made us look really bad. And I remember being like pretty frustrated about it and being like trying to move forward in the job. And she called me and she said, I don't know what to do. I'm in a contract with this person and he's building my home. Like, I'm so in deep with him. Regardless of the fact that what he did was not cool and not appropriate, I have to stay in this relationship with him and so I have to get out of my relationship with you. And it was like, what?

[Caitlin Peterson]

Whoa.

[Unknown]

I think we all, we all understood that he had sort of sabotaged our relationship. But she was under contract with him. And, you know, even though I'm in a contract with somebody as an interior designer, I'm not the One that dug the hole did. The framing has to warranty the house. So somehow you have to make this work. So it's going to take a lot for a homeowner to walk away from their general contractor, more than it would take them to just be frustrated and carry on. So nine out of 10 times, you're kind of going to be stuck in that situation. So you have to figure out, you know, how to make it work.

I never really thought about that. Like, yes, it's a red flag, I guess, if someone's switching design firms. But truly, no contractor wants to walk into, like, a hole in the ground and be like, yeah, I'll sign up to finish this job for you. That's a really different thing.

Harder. Yeah, it's way harder. There's so much red tape, and it's an impossible scenario. So I'm not saying the designer should be the first one to go, but if it came down to that, they would probably have to stick with a contractor. So our job is to figure out how do we keep pushing this along? So I've worked on dozens of jobs where the general contractor just didn't prioritize that particular project or that particular client or didn't have all their ducks in a row, wasn't organized. And you sometimes spend hours and hours and hours just recommunicating, recommunicating, recommunicating. And it's in those moments where you just. You got to put everybody on the emails. You put the homeowner, you put the client, you put the contractor, you put every, you know, everybody on it. And you say, just putting this to the top of your inbox. This went out a couple months ago. We haven't received pricing on it yet. Just want to make sure everyone's on the same page. It can be friendly. It doesn't have to be demeaning, but just to, you know, you have to protect yourself. And that's really, like, that's the best thing you can do is just make sure everyone has a clear understanding that you're getting your stuff done.

Is it different if you're in town versus not, you know, I think this, the fact that this was a remote job, that you can't check on it all the time.

Yeah.

Was, you know, a really big sticking point in, you know, in this case, not realizing that the house was so far from being done. But how do you and your team navigate the distance projects differently maybe than you might something where you can go and be on site tomorrow if you felt like it?

Yeah, I Think that's a great question. It's something that it's taken me a while kind of to figure out. So what works for me and the way I've structured my contracts is that when it is an out of state job, I do not include travel expenses in the contract in our fees. And so basically I'm saying I have a certain amount of time included to do your project within the parameters of this sort of period. So I might say 24 months, even though it should only take, you know, 20 months to get the job done. And within that time I can travel to you four times, or I can travel to you 10 times, it doesn't matter to me. But you're covering the travel expenses because I have had out of state projects where we have gone four times and they have been the smoothest, easiest, no problems projects. And then I have had some where the homeowner said to me, I don't care if you have to fly out here every week, I will pay for it. I need you here to oversee things and make sure they're doing things properly. And that's unfortunate if you get into that situation. But I never want to come back to them and be like, oh, you've run out of time. No, I have to charge you extra. So I'm going to say I, I don't care if I'm working at your place or if I'm working at my office, but if I'm traveling there, you're covering it. And that has kept us from getting into trouble on those projects where we need to be on site and do a little bit more site management. You know, sometimes we almost act like a general contractor. We're going through and we're measuring framing and we're checking, you know, is the electrical in the right place, you know, where are we going to put all the switches, things like that. And then other jobs, you have a contractor who's like, I'm just going to zoom you really quick, walk you through this and if you got any, you know, if you have any questions, let me know.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Right.

[Unknown]

And so it can be night and day that. And that can really get you into a lot of trouble. If you only budget three travels and you have to do 12, there's some other things that we do in order to make sure that distance jobs are being understood. One of the jobs that we had that was supposed to take about a year and a half ended up taking three years to complete. And so what we ended up, we had the local architect went every Friday and took job site Pictures and sent them out to everybody. And so that way we knew, like, okay, they don't have casing up yet, they don't have trim up yet. They haven't painted that room yet. And so we kept pushing back, pushing back, pushing back on our installation. That doesn't mean that when we showed up to install, there weren't 20 guys in the house. I mean, somebody was literally spraying toxic black paint in the fireplace. And we had to open up all the doors and windows while we were moving furniture into the house because everyone was going to pass out. Like crazy things like that happen. But. And you can only do the best you can do. But getting that documentation helped us because we were going to move that house in, I think six weeks earlier. We had no idea, you know, like, we would have gotten into a big mess if we didn't have the photography.

So, I mean, so much of this, and I think that's where this designer was, was this idea that you're in the middle of a job, realizing you sort of need to turn it around or you need to change your relationship. What are some of the things you can do from the beginning? You know, it sounds like she's about to embark on a new project with the same partner. What are some of the ways to kind of set ground rules or establish a better working relationship from the jump?

It's funny because sometimes in our office, I feel like we don't have a really strict sort of sign off policy. A lot of times we feel like if we get a deposit on something, that's enough to say, like, we've approved it because we have such an extensive reviewing process. But we have at times implemented and on certain jobs, oh, hey, we have to have a sign off on this. Now that you've received it or reviewed it, we need everybody to sign off on it. And it's just presented in a way of like, this is how we do things.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And that. That is like a good way for us to keep things on target. And then what it does is it sort of opens the door to say, like, just looking at the construction schedule and it looks like tile needs to be signed off on by Tuesday. So we're going to need those numbers in by Tuesday if you want to stay on schedule. So it's sort of an indirect way of saying, if everybody doesn't get all their stuff done, if we don't get budget numbers in, if we don't get sign off from the homeowner, we are now not on schedule anymore. But you're the one instigating it. And you're the one sort of like leading the charge of I'm trying to keep us on schedule. And I think that, you know, if you. If the job's going to get off schedule and everyone's okay with it, then everyone's okay with it. But if they're not, it kind of like raises the red flag for the homeowner. Like something's going on here and we need to either crack the whip or, you know, kind of have like a come to Jesus meeting with a contractor and find out how are we moving forward.

Is there a moment or like a tell when you know it's time to step in and take that role in a job?

Yes, there are. The first one that popped into my head when you said that was I walked into a multimillion dollar house, big beautiful house, new construction, and all of the countertop material, like for slabs and showers and things like that had been cut short. And there were these big gaping spaces between tile and slab material. And the bigger problem is that they should have put the slab in first and then tiled down to it, but they didn't order the material in time to get cut. So they put the tile up and then tried to fit the slab around it. And it was sort of in that moment that I was like, this is going to be a big fat problem. There's going to be all kinds of issues. There's going to be water issues, there's going to be all. And it was like, all right, screech the tires. Everybody stop. What do we need to unwind right now and fix so that we don't have all these problems down the road? I know better as a designer that this is not a good design. And my number one job is to serve my client. Right? I don't work for the contractor, I don't work for the subcontractors, I don't work for the tile guy. I work for the homeowner. And it's my responsibility to stop and say, this is not a good detail for you. They can make it look good, but it's not going to work well for you. So when those kinds of things come up, that's when I feel like you have to stop and just have an honest conversation about what's really happening.

Is there anything you look for when you're taking a new job? You know, just in terms of like making sure that respect and camaraderie and mutual respect, I guess, is there with the homeowner, with the contractor, with the architect?

Yeah, of course. Well, One of the things I'm super thankful for is that we've gotten to the point where we can say no to jobs. Right. So if we sense that in sort of those initial conversations that we're having before a project that either someone's going to be difficult to work with, or the contractor really, like, the contractor is not building to the level or the quality that this homeowner is going to try and get out of them, then those are times where I'll kind of say, like, hey, this might not be a good job for us, or if you want us to do this project with you, you need to look elsewhere for a different kind of contractor. I feel like it's our superpower as designers because we have the opportunity to work with so many different kinds of contractors. And, you know, it's not like you always work with the same team. Right. No matter where you. You. Every time you take on a new job, you're thrown into a new situation, whether it's a different location or a different builder. And, you know, a guy building a house on one street and a guy building a house on the street next to it can be completely different experiences. Right. Even within the same town. And so doing, like, a little bit of research and having those initial conversations, even if you're saying, like, hey, what are you thinking about for allowances or what's your process for this? You can see what kind of builder they are, and then you can navigate that situation. Like, do I want to get into this? It's going to require a lot of hand holding. Do I not want to get into this because they can't build what you're trying to accomplish, or they're not willing to have kind of, like, fruitful conversation with me. So this is just going to be like a tug of war the whole job.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So I think it's really important at the beginning of the job to have sort of that. I don't call it an interview, but I say, like, hey, can I talk with your contractor? Can I see what other kind of projects they've done? You know, that kind of thing, so you can get a good feel for it before you take the job.

If you were this designer who called in and you had done one job with this contractor, and the clients were asking you to do a second job with the contractor.

Yeah, I probably wouldn't do it. I probably would have said to the clients, this is a really incredible opportunity, and I would love to do it, but the last project was particularly difficult, and I just don't feel like It's a good fit for me, but let me just retract that real quick. And I just want to share this. So I was working on a project with a contractor one time, and it was just really, really rough. And I. I was questioning myself. At the end of it. I'm like, am I hard to work with? What is going on here? And this. This job was just. Was really difficult. I thought, I'm never going to work with him again. I started to realize towards the end of the project that it was the client. And it was the kind of client that always put a smiley face on and you thought was, like, great. And then the farther you got into the job, you realized they were a very tricky person to work for. And I think the contractor had just kind of like, had it up to here with them by the end, and he just was sort of out of sorts. I ended up taking another project with him because I loved the homeowners. It kind of sounds like the. The previous designer that called in, and that project was outstanding. It was fabulous. And I was like, let's do this again. And so I realized it was the homeowners that were driving that really negative experience. But I think that's a kind of a rare situation, but it does happen. So fortunately, I had kind of figured that out before I said no, you know, to the second job.

So you talked about communicating really well. And I think earlier we were talking about this idea of sort of holding everybody accountable by putting everybody on the emails. But at a very basic level, what is sort of the essential communication from your firm that is sort of keeping everybody on track? What does that look like?

Typically, we break our projects down into phases like most firms do. You know, you've got, like, your schematic design, your design development, your construction documents within those phases. We have it also broken down. Like, are we doing cabinet drawings? Are we selecting light fixtures? Are we selecting tile encounters? And along the way, letting your clients know, okay, we just completed the trim package. Now we're going to be moving on to this, and here's your allowance. And your contractor is going to need this information before X, Y and Z. So it's kind of. It's so simple. It's such a simple note to send. Just to say, like, here's where we are. Here's where we've done. Here's where we're going. You're setting expectations of what they have to think about, what they have to focus on and when they have to get it done and where the numbers need to be you're reassuring them that you're aware of their budget and all of those things. And it's little bite sized pieces. That's the communications, like little bite sized pieces all along the way. And then things are a lot more clear that way. Well, it teaches your, it shows your client that you're, that you're not just there to like get things done, but that you actually care about the project, you care about their budget, you care about their timeline, you care about all of the things and you're handling it. And so I think just that little note goes a long way.

This has been amazing advice. I wanted to pivot really quickly and ask you about advice that you've received. What's the most meaningful advice that's been given to you in your career?

Yeah, well, I have since done two houses for this homeowner, but the first house I did for them. I was, I wasn't new to the design world. I had had 10 years experience, but I was new to having my own business. And I was not good. I'm not good at math. Let's just call it what it is. I'm really not good at math. It's the truth there. It's out there for everybody to know. It doesn't come naturally to me. I gotta work really hard at it. And I was very quick to get excited. If I would say, like, change something big, I'm gonna save you so much money or whatever, I was just like so excited. But then something else would end up costing a lot more money. And it was sort of this emotional high and low, high and low. And I've, I think one of the best things he ever said to me was like, get your ducks in a row. Know what you're talking about. When you're talking prices with us, it will serve you well as you work with clients and you get older. And I like never forgot the part of him saying it will serve you well. And I just kind of realized like, if I'm going to do this, if I'm going to manage people's money while I'm simultaneously managing their emotions and all of these stresses and all these things that go along with home building, I have to have that part dialed in and figured out and perfect. Because the one time you screw up something that impacts them financially, it puts like seeds of doubt in their mind and it makes the whole project so much harder. So even though our job is to design and to do all these beautiful things for people, at the end of the day, there's this financial component that goes along to it and you have to be trustworthy with it and you have to be sensitive and aware of it. And so I think having the right programming, having the right staff that, you know, like an in house bookkeeper, we have a fractional CFO that helps us with things. We have people that we can tap into to make sure that everything we're doing is very clean and perfect. And we are human. Mistakes happen, but it's usually a very innocent mistake or a misunderstanding or something. And I'm very quick to be like, we screwed this up. This is what happened. This is what I'm going to do about it.

[Caitlin Peterson]

It.

[Unknown]

But getting that right and presenting that right, I think has been a real game changer for the ease of our projects and then also for just establishing trust with people along the way.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for being here and for everyone listening with a question of your own. I'd love for you to ask us anything. Don't worry, we'll keep it anonymous. Please start the conversation by sending me an [e-mail] if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. And if you're looking for even more great business advice, head on over to businessofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlin Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see.

[Unknown]

You here next week.