Ask Us Anything: Clara Jung on building community as an introvert

Summary

Trade Tales Podcast Summary: "Ask Us Anything: Clara Jung on Building Community as an Introvert"

Introduction

In the April 2, 2025 episode of Trade Tales, hosted by Kaitlin Petersen, Clara Jung, founder of a Bay Area interior design firm, delves into the challenges and strategies of building a professional network as an introvert in the largely extroverted design industry. This episode offers valuable insights for designers who identify as introverts, providing actionable advice on fostering meaningful connections without compromising personal comfort.

The Struggle with Traditional Networking

Clara begins by articulating the common dilemma faced by introverted professionals: the pressure to engage in large social gatherings to build their network. She states, “I feel like I hear the word networking a lot. A person like me, who is an introvert, finds it so challenging to meet people in large social gatherings” (00:51). This sentiment underscores the initial anxiety many introverts experience when stepping into environments that prioritize extroverted networking styles.

Challenges Faced by Introverts in Networking

Clara elaborates on her preferences, emphasizing her inclination towards one-on-one interactions over superficial conversations. “I love to have deeper conversations. I love to know the person a little more before actually talking shop” (01:21). She highlights the difficulty of initiating conversations in large groups where she feels like a “fish out of water,” especially in overstimulating environments that heighten her anxiety (01:21).

Kaitlin Petersen probes further, asking about Clara’s meaningful industry connections. Clara responds, “It's mostly by chance where two people are either in a corner for some reason or just grabbing a drink. And we happen to chat” (02:24). This accidental networking contrasts sharply with the deliberate approach many are encouraged to take, revealing the inefficacy of traditional networking for introverts.

Strategies for Effective Networking as an Introvert

To navigate these challenges, Clara shares her personal strategies. She prefers attending events early when there are fewer people, making it easier to start conversations before social circles solidify. “I like to come earlier when there's more openness” (15:53). Additionally, Clara discusses the concept of adopting an alter ego to bolster confidence in social settings. “I had in law school, specifically, I had an alter ego because I had to just put a different mindset in my head” (17:03), allowing her to feel more prepared and less anxious when approaching new people.

Clara also emphasizes the importance of sincerity and authenticity in building relationships. “What was helpful for me was to think of it sincerely as just relationships. It could be a friendship, it could be a professional relationship” (14:45). This approach shifts the focus from transactional interactions to genuine connections, making networking feel less daunting and more meaningful.

Balancing Personal Life and Business

Transitioning from the rush of pandemic projects to a more balanced work rhythm has been a significant shift for Clara. She discusses the importance of recalibrating her business operations and personal expectations to align with a slower-paced environment. “It's been amazing to actually slow down in terms of cadence and really dive into the details of a project” (09:54). This transition has allowed her to focus on quality over quantity, enhancing both her professional satisfaction and personal well-being.

Clara acknowledges the financial implications of this shift, noting a necessary adjustment in managing income and resources. “There's only so much you can recapture, even if you're increasing your fees or how you charge” (09:09). Despite these challenges, Clara finds the new balance ideal for personal growth and business sustainability.

Reframing Introversion as a Superpower

A pivotal moment in the conversation is Clara’s reframing of introversion from a limitation to a strength. She explains, “Being an introvert, for me personally, you're kind of very, very attuned to people. Able to pick up on small signals and very sincere and deep-thinking” (27:49). Clara highlights how her introverted nature enhances client relationships through deeper, more meaningful interactions, which are crucial in the design industry where personalized service is key.

Clara also points out that introverts bring a level of introspection and thoughtfulness that can lead to innovative and thoughtful design solutions. “I have the radar and the inner tools to really collaborate well with your clients in a more intimate setting” (27:49). This perspective positions introversion as an asset that fosters strong, lasting client relationships and superior project outcomes.

Advice for Introverted Designers

Clara offers several pieces of advice for introverts looking to expand their professional networks:

1. Shift Your Mindset: Instead of viewing networking as a transactional activity, approach it as building genuine relationships. “Networking is really about relationships, not purely transactional” (14:45).

2. Strategic Attendance: Arrive early at events to engage in conversations before social groups form. “Coming earlier when there's more openness can create more opportunities for meaningful interactions” (15:53).

3. Adopt an Alter Ego: Use a persona to boost confidence in social settings, helping to ease anxiety and facilitate conversations. “Envisioning myself as someone ready to be chatty and open has been a confidence booster” (17:04).

4. Leverage Support Systems: Bringing a friend or colleague to events can provide emotional support and make networking less intimidating. “Bringing a friend acts as a support system” (19:33).

5. Utilize Professional Assistance: Delegate networking tasks to trusted representatives, such as a PR professional, to expand your reach without exhausting your energy. “I choose to have Rich represent me in editorial circles” (24:39).

6. Reframe Networking Goals: Focus on meaningful conversations rather than the number of contacts. “Leave your mind and space open for anybody to connect with” (22:03).

Conclusion

Clara Jung’s insights offer a refreshing perspective for introverted professionals in the design industry. By redefining networking, employing strategic approaches, and leveraging personal strengths, introverts can build robust and meaningful professional communities without compromising their innate preferences. Clara’s journey underscores the importance of authenticity, thoughtful engagement, and strategic support in fostering lasting connections and achieving business success.

Notable Quotes

• “I love to have deeper conversations. I love to know the person a little more before actually talking shop.” — Clara Jung (01:21)

• “What was helpful for me was to think of it sincerely as just relationships. It could be a friendship, it could be a professional relationship.” — Clara Jung (14:45)

• “Being an introvert, for me personally, you're kind of very, very attuned to people. Able to pick up on small signals and very sincere and deep-thinking.” — Clara Jung (27:49)

• “I had to have faith in myself to follow an unorthodox career path and forge my own way.” — Clara Jung (29:16)

Takeaway

This episode of Trade Tales serves as a valuable resource for introverted designers seeking to navigate the extrovert-centric landscape of professional networking. Clara Jung’s experiences and strategies provide a blueprint for building meaningful connections while honoring one’s personal energy and preferences.

Transcript

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Ask Us Anything, a new show where I'll be tapping former Trade Tales guests to answer all of your questions about building a better design business. Some weeks we'll be workshopping a crisis. In others, we'll take a step back to talk about the big picture. Things like embracing change, hiring, or how to level up. No question is out of bounds. No question is too large or too. And we're keeping it confidential so that this is always a safe space to air your frustrations and share your fears. This week I'm excited to field a question from a designer who's struggling to network as a self described introvert in an industry full of extroverts.

[Clara Jung]

I feel like I hear the word networking a lot. A person like me, who is an introvert who finds it so challenging to meet people in like, large social gatherings. That's my first challenge.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Our question asker knows the value of connecting with fellow designers, but finds that entering a room full of strangers often feels like a daunting task. She's looking for advice on how to find a foothold in large group settings, even when she feels like a fish out of water.

[Clara Jung]

I'm more of a one on one person. I love to have like, deeper conversations. I love to know the person a little more before actually talking shop. I'm also kind of naturally shy, which means I find it difficult to approach people and start a conversation unless introduced by a friend or a common person. So I feel like that's another thing where you're meeting strangers literally in a, in a room. How do you approach that? And obviously the environment is overstimulating, so that immediately puts me in an anxious mood.

[Unknown]

And wouldn't it be nice if that sort of necessary evil didn't have to feel evil?

[Clara Jung]

Yeah, I mean, I do find it challenging. I feel like the conversations are not deep enough. They're not very meaningful. I mean, in the past, the few events I've kind of attended, I haven't been able to really leave with even one takeaway.

[Unknown]

Are there touch points that have been really meaningful for you? Where are the industry connections that you've been really happy to have made?

[Clara Jung]

It's mostly by chance where two people are either in a corner for some reason or just grabbing a drink. And we happen to chat. So it's not like I am approaching someone, hey, what do you do? And you know, it's hard for me, but say, suppose we are at the bar ordering a drink. We happen to Chat. So I feel like it happens.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah.

[Clara Jung]

But you just throw me in like a big room. I enter the big room, and it's time to, like, break through a big group who's already formed and, you know, having a discussion and introduce myself, that becomes challenging.

[Unknown]

When you're going to stuff like that, what drives you to say, like, I need to build my network. This is important.

[Clara Jung]

Learning for me is a very big aspect. Also, I want to be inspired by what they're doing. It's not necessarily how they can help me.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Clara Jung]

It's more about just exploring, just knowing the world more.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I think there's kind of two things there. Right. It's like, how do you navigate this? Like, what are the strategies to make this easier? And also, like, how do you protect your peace a little bit while you're in the midst of something that maybe is outside of your comfort zone or outside of your ideal resting state in terms of like, introversion versus extroversion.

[Clara Jung]

Exactly. And I feel like how you also kind of get to know a person.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Clara Jung]

Extroverts can easily strike a conversation. They become besties within 10 minutes instantly.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Clara Jung]

But for me, I generally take a lot of time to open up to a person. So how do you do that in like, even an hour? I think it also. Different approaches.

[Unknown]

Totally. I mean, it's also what you value, right?

[Clara Jung]

Yes, exactly. It's not about knowing so many people. I feel like it's also about knowing few people you relate to. And, you know, you want to find those people. And how do you find those people?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I'm not sure anyone loves walking into a party and realizing they don't know anyone there. But this is something different, something deeper. And if the prevailing message is that networking is a fundamental component of success, where does that leave professionals like our question asker? Are there ways to ease that discomfort? And better yet, could we uncover a fresh perspective on being an introvert in this industry? Could we focus on the ways that it might be a superpower instead of a limitation? As we ended our call, I knew just who to connect with to help our question Ask her find her footing. All that and more in just a moment. Today's clients want beautiful furnishings that stand up to the challenges of daily life. Things like kids or dogs, or in my case, a takeout order on the sofa after a long day. And that's why Fourhands has partnered with Krypton Fabric, which brings their luxury performance fabrics to more than 150 upholstered pieces this spring. It's a partnership that offers longevity, flexibility and a sense of ease to any client's home. What's not to love? With a 30 year track record as an industry innovator, Crypton Fabric is renowned for its indoor performance textiles. And through this new partnership with Four Hands, designers can shop for easy to clean sofas, dining chairs, and more, all available in a range of colors and textures, including a selection of linens and velvets that I'm especially excited about. You can be the first to explore this partnership in person at High Point Market later this month when you visit the Four Hand showroom on the fourth floor of Showplace. Today, I'm joined by former Trade Tales guest Clara Jung, whose Bay Area firm is settling into a new pace of work now that the rush of pandemic projects has passed. When Clara was on the show the first time, she spoke about pivoting from a law career to launching her own design business. A journey that involved building a network from the ground up without a lot of the built in relationships that can come from design school or working within another firm. I thought she'd be the perfect person to answer today's question.

[Unknown]

Welcome back. What have you been up to since we had you on the show last?

Quite a lot. We had a second daughter, so that's been another life milestone. I have realized that two is different than one, but you know, surviving and I guess in a way thriving. You know, just figuring out the business in the transition from the rush of COVID projects and into more a different rhythm of sorts for work in terms of work. So yeah, that's what I've been up to.

What did that feel like and when did you start to feel that shift of okay, we're wrapping all these Covid era jobs, right?

I mean, I talk about it quite a bit because I think for me as well as for people in the industry, it was such a big change or like a pretty momentous event in the industry. I personally just my gut feeling projected that the rush of COVID projects and kind of the robustness of work would taper down in 2023 for US and our firm specifically. Actually, it was closer to 2024, so it was off by a year. And so it's actually trying to find and navigate a new cadence to at least our daily, weekly, monthly, yearly kind of projects and just how we think about bandwidth and how we handle clients and just managing my own personal expectations of what it means to be, I guess, successful and busy. Because the barometer is so wildly different.

[Caitlin Peterson]

During COVID than is it about realizing.

[Unknown]

You know, the phone won't always ring like this. Or is it about saying, I don't want the phone to always ring like this?

Both.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, like, you know, everyone I knew, my colleagues, like, it was just, like, overwhelming in some ways, in a good way. Like, you're just kind of forced to prioritize and focus on the priorities and manage client expectations, all that stuff. But it really forces you to refine your processes, hopefully, and systems and just be a really good designer for your client. So I think in a lot of ways, I'm so grateful to have been part of that era, so to speak. But it's been amazing to actually slow down in terms of cadence and, like, really dive in and just have more general breathing room. But with that comes a recalibration of kind of finances, honestly.

Right, right.

Because I would. I don't think I'm remiss in saying there's obviously going to be a drop in income with less work, and there's only so much you can recapture, even if you're increasing your fees or how you charge or whatever. So, honestly, it just seems like another transition. I don't. I think overall, for me, in terms of my personal life, where it is right now, and in conjunction with kind of a slower pace overall, it's been actually pretty ideal, and I've been embracing it. But I also tend to like to move very quickly and, like, I like staying busy. So it's kind of some interpersonal adjustment on kind of how I devote my energies and what I like to focus on.

What are you most excited about these days when you walk into work?

I'm really excited about really diving into the details of a project because we're not so pushed. We just have more time to, like, evaluate millwork. Like, for example, millwork details. Like, you know, for example, like, I can look at shop drawings. I'm like, why don't we try adjusting, like, the toe kick and try something different? Because I saw something in a magazine or a book and I was like, why don't we try that here? And, like, in the era of COVID like, that, that kind of reflection wasn't really possible. And then just, like, educating myself more and having the space to do that and being more inspired has been pretty amazing. I think that's not just for me personally, but for my team generally.

That's really beautiful.

I know. And I. I mean, I'm in my early 40s. Maybe that's kind of like the space to allow yourself to grow. I think it's like kind of an extension of just like my life philosophy as of late, to be quite honest. And so I think I've been doing a lot of self reflection and like, you know, I was so in the hustle, especially during COVID but even before then because I was trying to build the business. And I think, of course, like I referred to before, like, the financials are different. Like, you know, when you're so packed to the brim with projects and just like at such a fast pace, you. You are reaping the benefits of that financially, but also, you don't have the space necessarily to appreciate and make small edits or changes in a way that can really separate a project from one to the next. And I am really grateful to have that meeting room now to do so.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Are you ready to give some advice?

[Unknown]

Am I ever. Yes.

Well, this week we are fielding a question from a designer who keeps hearing the advice to network as a way to grow her business. But she identifies as an introvert, and she basically was telling me that she feels totally out of her element navigating big industry events. Does that ring true for you as well?

Yes, totally. I mean, I think people who have known me really know that I'm an introvert, but I think people who don't know me as well think that I'm an extra extrovert because they play that role really well. But I totally understand the question, and I know where she's coming from.

When did you first realize that you were an introvert in a role that's maybe traditionally held by extroverts?

When I first started my own business, I think as a very quick refresher, I was an attorney before, and I kind of started this own business on my own because I couldn't get a job at a design firm because I just didn't have the requisite qualifications. And starting your own firm is just so different than potentially working for as an employee for another firm because you are inherently and entirely sales, right?

Yeah.

So. And sales fundamentally is about selling yourself as well as your business. And so that is. I can't. You can't really split hairs, but that requires you to be an extrovert, at least in moments in your life. So I think for me, when I realized, okay, I'm leaving my legal job and I want to start my own firm, I had to, in many ways, put all of these insecurities and hesitation at the door because it's literally just about survival and success. Like, if I want clients, you need to turn on that extrovert. Channel whatever it is inside yourself.

How do you do that? What is the secret for you to sort of getting in that zone?

It really depends on I think context and people. I think one thing that has really helped for me when people ask me and I still have some of these calls on like my career transition and like how who are my first clients and how did I start. I understand the terminology networking, which is related to being an extrovert, right? Because if the goal is to get clients and projects like, or like, you know, being published somewhere, like all of that kind of relies on networking, which is rooted in this idea of being an extrovert. But for me, like what helped me very early on was not to necessarily thinking about it as networking as per definition, because for me it felt like an implied transactional relationship. What was helpful for me was to think of it sincerely as just relationships. Like it could be a friendship, it could be a professional relationship. But I didn't like necessarily implication that it was a purely transactional relationship with a pretty specific professional goal in mind because it doesn't have to be that. And I think for me additionally, what was helpful is to come from a place of sincerity in terms of all of my networking and relationships. Because if it doesn't come from a core place of sincerity and authenticity, it doesn't really, it's hard to find success.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hi friends. If you're loving Ask Us Anything. So far, I've got a fun update for you. We're hosting the first ever Ask Us Anything Live at High Point Market this month, brought to you by Four Hands and Crypton Fabric. That's right. We're taking this show on the road. Designers you know and love from recent episodes of Trade Tales will be on hand to tackle some real questions that we typically answer on the show. And if you register now, you can submit a question of your own too, and hear it answered live on stage. Mark your calendar and plan to join us on Sunday, April 27 at 10am in the Four Hands Showroom, which is on the fourth floor of Showplace. There's going to be coffee and breakfast to get your morning started, a chance to explore the new Crypton fabric collection and a ton of unfiltered business advice. I can't wait to see you there. You can sign up now at fourhands.comevent-rsvp where you can find the link to register in the show notes.

[Unknown]

How did you take that thinking out into the marketplace or out into a big party or just sort of out into the industry in General.

Right. I mean, I know where she's coming from. Honestly, I've walked into many a social event or a party, or even, like, even if it's like, an intimate party of, like, 20 people at dinner, you know, or like, one that's, like. You know, it's like, high point, where it's like a hundred, you know.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I think it can be daunting. I have not been afraid, and I think you just have to take the courage and do. It is, like, to walk up to a circle of people to start introducing yourself, and hopefully they are nice people and they will introduce themselves and you start a conversation. And I know that's a little daunting. I do like to come earlier when there's more openness. I would say a lot of people like to drive later, which I find a little interesting, but I like to come earlier when they're setting up, honestly, like, on the dot. And, like, at that point, you'll find people also similarly kind of like, not necessarily already enmeshed in their social circle, and there's just more openings. So that's one kind of approach that I take. The other one, I can't believe I'm revealing this to you, is like, I had in law school, specifically, I had an alter ego because I had to just put a different mindset in my head. And my name is Clara, and this person became Carla.

Okay.

Like, you know, at, like, legal networking events, I just, like, had to kind of fortify myself and envision myself as, like, a different person in a way. And, like, I don't mean, like, that's a departure from your true self, but just more like, you know, in some ways, it's a little freeing, right? You're just like. It's like you are yourself, but a little bit with a Persona. And I'm like, I know it kind of is crazy, and it might seem, like, very fantasy, like, but it does help in terms of, like, this is like, you know, Clara the designer, and I am the one in the office 9 to 5, doing all these things. But then, you know, I have to kind of wrap myself up, especially if I have a long work day, and then we are invited, or I am invited to an event, like, you know, seven to 10 at night. And I'm like, okay, I have to leave all that stuff, whatever it was, at the door at the office. And now this is like a different. Like, I'm a different. I'm shifting myself, and I have to, like, get ready to work in a different way. Like, before, like, an event like, that I come in with a positive mindset. And honestly, like, sometimes I don't want to go. Right, so.

Right, right.

Because I'm just tired. And so I just have to kind of put myself up and envision myself as already someone who's ready to be chatty, bubbly, open to talking to people, and sometimes just like, kind of having that split second thought of, like, I can do this. This is who I want to be at a party and who I can be. That in itself is like a confidence booster for me personally.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's amazing.

[Unknown]

I had two immediate references. One was Beyonce had, like, Sasha Fierce. I feel like you are not alone.

Right?

Like, insane. Like, she was like, I'm not the person who's up on stage, like, doing this crazy stuff.

I have never been compared to Beyonce. So. Thank you.

You are welcome. The other thing I was thinking of was I was watching Ted Lasso recently, and there's the thing about, like, making yourself large, like, in the mirror. And I was thinking of that just, like, what does it take to give yourself a pep talk or say, like, I love that idea. This is how I want to show up at this event.

Right. And I'm not, like, you know, I'm not, like, super, like, I don't know what you call it. Not hippie, but, like, I just feel like I am a pretty grounded person. But I think, like, those are techniques that do work for me personally, like, to kind of manifest and envision. And I'm not saying, like, you have to take, you know, 20 minutes of your day literally just right before I walk in. Like, I'm like, this is something I can do.

Are there other things that can make you feel kind of more confident walking in?

Yeah, I mean, I think kind of the most natural thing people often do, whether conscious or unconsciously, is to bring a friend, to be honest. And it's like a support system for each other, or it goes one way, but usually both ways. Or ask if anyone else is going to set events. I think it's also pretty context specific. Like, I've been invited to events where I know there'd be a lot of editorial, for example. And then you kind of just think off the top of your head, what are some topics you can ask them or you're interested in? And so those are just like, really quick thoughts I have. Often going into an Uber to that event or party or whatever it is.

Is there stuff you found that you just kind of can't accomplish without putting yourself out there in this way, or is, like, the Fundamental advice to like, build your network to grow your business. Sort of flawed.

Yeah, I actually can identify with that statement because like I said, it's all about framing for me. And I feel like to grow your business seems like I said in some ways a very specific line of thought. And it can feel very transactional for me. Like I'm 10 years and now, and it's always kind of how I've worked just in my. All of my professional life. The good things that come to you, some. Some of it can be that you have a goal in mind and you set your goal and you work really hard at it. But I just feel like networking is kind of like marketing. It's really hard to find a direct line. Like, you just put yourself out there and you're open and you're sincere and like. And sometimes you'd be surprised how it comes back to you in terms of the benefits. So I really don't like the idea of like, for example, like cornering an editor at a party because you want to get published in a publication.

And then as an editor, I thank you.

And I've seen that happen. And it kind of makes me, you know, honestly cringe a little bit because, like, I just think, like, the setting is inappropriate. And I just think that it comes as much as it looks. Right. Like, it just feels like you're there, driven for a very specific business purpose, but you're not treating the other party as like a person.

Is it also like interactions with brands in some cases?

I was going to say like representatives of like, some brands or vendors or whatever. I think where I found the most success is like, deeper conversations with people and small, smaller groups. Even if it's a larger party.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Like, usually it's like a bigger event. There's like potentially some very important people there. Right. And then like, you know, everyone's around those important people and that's like a group of 15 or 10 or whatever. But I found that what is most gratifying for me as well as for other parties is like more these more intimate conversations even within those settings, because you can just get more intimate and deeper. And it's. Both parties usually leave away with a memory of that conversation and then reconnect down the line versus if you're in this like larger group setting of 10 or 15 people kind of surrounding a couple, maybe potentially editors, you're just lost in a sea of faces.

Right.

It's not. You were there. Yes. In the circle, but it's not like you'll remember me in two Years. Right. And the other thing I think related to that is not to just seek out who you think is potentially the person you need or should talk to. I feel like some of my best friends in the industry, as far as other firm owners, have come via events. And so, like, you might go into a dinner party or a vendor thing and think that you want to talk to this X, Y, Z person, but I would say leave your mind and space open for anybody.

Making industry friends was actually the exact next place I wanted to go. How did that happen for you? Or where did some of those connections come to when you were making your way into the industry?

Most of my designer friends started in Instagram, although I definitely have formed some really strong bonds with people at events. We just started talking. We just started talking about how we do business. And like, for me, what. What is most memorable and the people that I like to often surround myself with is people where we don't necessarily have complete alignment in. In process or kind of philosophy because I want the friction to kind of force me to think about things differently in business. I like that you. There's no straight line. Like, there's a lot of a multitude of different ways to approach a single potentially problem. And I like to hear what other people are doing.

Are there ways to also sort of bypass that need for networking? My first thought was, you know, you've worked with a really awesome PR person, Rich Puddin, for a long time. I think, you know, in some ways, does that help you make those connections without having to accost someone at a party? You know, like, are there things like that where you've made those choices? Because it shifts that responsibility off your plate.

Totally. And I'm really glad that you brought it up. I mean, I feel like for me, I am choosing how I spend my. A limited capital on being an extrovert. Right. So for me, I envision it as like a graph chart. And like. And even. And you know, even if after. After I do a long presentation in front of clients, just me talking continuously for three hours, my calendar is clear for the rest of the day because I need to recharge. I am like, absolutely drained. Like, it's like really hard. I can do it and I'm fairly good at it, but it is not giving me energy. It's kind of outputting energy for me. And so I chose specifically to have Rich represent me in, like you said, in like, more editorial circles, because I don't. I have limited bandwidth, you know, with my own personal life and professional life and like, that's not necessarily where I wanted to expend that energy. I'd rather reserve that and allocate that somewhere else as where it's like my peers, like engaging with them or my clients or my team. And so that's true. If you are kind of like me and at a core introvert, you can strategize on how you are limited resources, right. And your personality and how you allocate those and like what's most important to you. And I know some people where they think that they themselves are the best representation of the brand, which is awesome. And that that's where they focus on is like selling themselves as a brand and as a designer to like editorial or brands or whatever. So they don't need a PR agent. And that works for them. And I applaud that. But that's not. That's not me.

What do you do to recharge after that presentation or after a party? Is there anything about the work that fills you back up or is it really about sort of unplugging from the work?

Definitely unplugging for me. Either it's a long walk or like you know, doing an errand. I just need clarity and just space and just not thinking. And I think that's true of anything, any work related tasks that it requires a lot of energy and thought. So I would say similarly, when we were going, talking earlier about preparing for an event, usually if I know it's an important event, I'll see people that I know. But also like, it's important for me to quote, unquote, do well. Like I will leave myself space in the calendar, hopefully while I prepare for the event to just be silent and not have to talk to anyone because again, like I'm trying to charge that battery to be on. And I hopefully that to the people listening, this doesn't imply that I'm pretending or posturing to be someone else. It's just more like I need to gather the energy to kind of engage in a really thoughtful manner.

I want to wrap up by reframing this idea of being an introvert as a superpower. Because I think in so many ways this question and our conversation sort of frames it as, you know, how do you compensate for this in this certain slice of your work? Which I totally, totally think is true. But I would imagine that this also brings you great clarity in other parts of your work. Can you talk a little bit about where you think this helps you shine?

I would not view being an introvert as a handicap of any sort. So thank you for providing and framing that question so elegantly. Yeah, I would say it's hard. I would, I want to say being an introvert, for me personally, you're kind of very, very attuned to people. I would say like there's a. Able to pick up on small signals and like are very sincere and deep thinking because you are not necessarily expressing every single thing outwardly. Right. So I find it very helpful, I mean, I guess in this specific industry with client relationships because most of these relationships are one on one. They're not held at big parties or like at certain events. So I find that if you're able to kind of turn on that extrovert part of your self to get the clients and the projects, you will have the radar and the inner kind of tools to really collaborate well with your clients in a more intimate setting. And I feel like it's not mutually exclusive, this idea of introvert and extrovert. So it's hard for me to say. But I do think like as a fellow core introvert, just, just you know, kind of being a little bit more deep rooted and self reflected, reflective a lot is a really powerful tool.

What is the best piece of advice you've ever received?

I think the best piece of advice I've ever received was have faith in yourself. I have defied a multitude of odds being where I am. And there is going to be so much noise telling you how to do things or how other success, successful people have found success, you know, and go ahead and seek that out. Like don't, you know, don't ignore it. I myself have followed a very unorthodox career path and I still talk to at least a handful of people every month who reach out to me, kind of seeking a change in their life. And I would say if you are at a place, whether you own your own firm or you're working with somebody else, if you're considering jumping into design, or maybe not even design, but something else completely different. So I would say don't be afraid to forge your own path and hustle, to be quite honest.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for being here, here and for everyone listening with a question of your own. I'd love for you to ask us anything. Don't worry, we'll keep it anonymous. Please start the conversation by sending me an [e-mail] if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. And if you're looking for even more great business advice, head on over to businessofhome.com TreeTails is produced by me, Caitlin Peterson, and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see.

[Unknown]

You here next week.