Ask Us Anything: Kevin Isbell on what to do when an order goes wrong [Rebroadcast]

Summary

Trade Tales: Ask Us Anything — Kevin Isbell on What to Do When an Order Goes Wrong [Rebroadcast]

Podcast: Trade Tales
Host: Kaitlin Petersen (Editor in Chief, Business of Home)
Guest Expert: Kevin Isbell (Interior Designer, Los Angeles)
Original Air Date: January 7, 2026
Episode Theme:
This episode centers on a real-life procurement nightmare faced by a designer: a custom order gone awry, opaque vendor accountability, and the search for bulletproof processes to protect both firm and client. Featuring advice and wisdom from seasoned designer Kevin Isbell, the episode also provides a follow-up to see how theoretical advice played out in practice.

---

Episode Overview

Kaitlin Petersen invites Kevin Isbell to guide a designer through the fallout from a significant custom order disaster. As they dissect responsibility, legalities, and the nuances of vendor relationships, the show surfaces practical tactics and hard-earned wisdom for designers managing risk, client expectations, and the unpredictable human element in creative businesses.

---

Key Discussion Points

1. The Designer's Dilemma: When a Good Vendor Goes Wrong [01:09-04:20]

• Background: The designer, newly independent after a decade in large firms, finds himself deeply involved in procurement. A longstanding vendor delivers a pair of custom chairs that fail to match the agreed specifications.
• Timeline of Trouble:
  • Detailed specs and PO sent to vendor.
  • Four to five months later, warehouse photos reveal the error.
  • Vendor admits mistake but becomes unhelpful in resolution.
  • Local workroom's attempt to fix the issue fails—chairs are further damaged.
  • Six months post-delivery, the problem remains unsolved.
• Reflection:
  “It was an ‘aha’ moment of like, all right, what do I need to change about my process to ensure that I’m not liable, that my clients don’t suffer because of the mistakes that are occurring?” (Designer, [03:11])
• Escalation:
  A snowballing situation, including new fabric damage, ambiguous liability, and the question of legal options—all complicated by resource constraints as a small business.

---

2. Enter Kevin Isbell: Experience & Perspective [06:46-12:40]

• About Kevin: Noted for his focus on meaningful vendor relationships and prioritizing client experience—even in costly situations.
• Recent Projects:
  Shares excitement over a contemporary wallpaper collaboration and restoration work, highlighting the creativity and adaptability necessary in design.
• Process Talk:
  Outlines the differences in designing for a collection vs. custom client orders—offering a glimpse at the problem-solving DNA essential to the trade.

---

3. Practical Wisdom on Mistakes, Accountability, and Client Focus [13:37-20:25]

• Immediate Response:
  Isbell recounts a lesson:
  “Designers’ homes are furnished by their mistakes, which it’s unfortunate. It really, really is. But at the end of the day, you really have to protect your client.” (Kevin Isbell, [13:51])
• No One is Immune:
  Even the best documentation can’t eliminate human error; every designer faces fiascos (“No amount of documentation and follow up can avoid human error...it does happen.” [13:51])
• Who Pays?:
  Isbell says protecting the client is paramount—even if it means absorbing a painful loss for the sake of reputation and repeat business.
• Professional Standards:
  “If these people don’t want to take care of it and they are professionals, then...I would not work with them because they don’t stand behind their word.” (Kevin Isbell, [16:25])

---

4. How to Handle and Learn from Vendor Failings [20:27-25:51]

• Replacing the Product:
  Sometimes, you bite the bullet and replace the items yourself: “If it comes down to ruining the relationship with the client, then yes.” (Kevin Isbell, [19:28])
• On Legal Action:
  “It’s expensive, it’s time-consuming, it takes an emotional train on you...I think in this instance, it’s unfortunate and it’s heartbreaking, but I think he owns two chairs that he will just have to specify into a new project.” (Kevin Isbell, [21:53])
• Contracts & Documentation:
  Maintain precise documentation—even if larger vendors resist sharing in-process photos, insist where possible. “You just have to document everything and make sure that the invoices say what you want.” (Kevin Isbell, [23:22])

---

5. Triage & Translation: What Does “Good Enough” Mean? [24:10-25:51]

• Art of Acceptable Tolerance:
  “How wrong is wrong? Does the finish still work? Is it off a shade or were they supposed to be red and they’re actually blue?...If it still gives what it was supposed to give, then maybe it’s just time to pivot, change lanes and keep moving.” (Kevin Isbell, [24:10], [25:12])
• Client Communication:
  Sometimes, discretion is better:
  “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” when minor deviations are functionally fine. (Kevin Isbell, [25:04])

---

6. Vetting Vendors and Building Trust [25:51-29:36]

• Sourcing New Partners:
  Rely on peer recommendations, probe for red flags (slow communication, poor documentation, shifting blame).
• Relationship Dynamics:
  “Even small fish have teeth. He might need to get a little bit more forceful on this situation.” (Kevin Isbell, [28:57])
• Standing Your Ground:
  “You will take these back. You will do this for me...or this is the end of our working relationship.” (Kevin Isbell, [29:36])

---

7. Respect & Shared Expertise [30:36-33:40]

• Mutual Respect:
  The hallmark of long-term vendor relationships is acknowledging expertise and fostering trust.
  • “I may know how I want the sofa to look, but Luther Quintana is the expert at how it should be. So, I’m going to come to him and say, ‘This is what I would like, how do we get there?’” (Kevin Isbell, [30:55])
• Relationships Trump Short-Term Savings:
  Isbell emphasizes the value of investing in people who will support you during inevitable setbacks.

---

8. Essential Advice for New Designers [33:40-35:17]

• Keep Momentum:
  “Momentum is everything. Keeping the momentum in the project going is instrumental. Sometimes you have to trust the process, even when it’s messy.” (Kevin Isbell, [33:50])
• Client-First Intervention:
  Protecting the client is always the highest priority, as satisfied clients are the engine of referrals and recurring business.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the harsh reality of design procurement:
  “Designers’ homes are furnished by their mistakes.”
  — Kevin Isbell, [13:51]

• On the irreducible importance of client experience:
  “The client is one, the reason I’m here, two, the reason I’m eating... it’s not the client’s fault.”
  — Kevin Isbell, [20:11]

• On loss and letting go:
  “I think he owns two chairs that he will just have to specify into a new project.”
  — Kevin Isbell, [22:37]

• On negotiating with vendors:
  “Even small fish have teeth. He might need to get a little bit more forceful on this situation.”
  — Kevin Isbell, [28:57]

• On relationships:
  “You’re supporting them and they’re supporting you... building those relationships.”
  — Kevin Isbell, [28:57]

• On advice received:
  “Momentum is everything. Keeping the momentum in the project going is instrumental.”
  — Kevin Isbell, [33:50]

---

Follow-Up: What Really Happened? [35:17–44:18]

The designer returns to explain how the saga ended—and what he learned:

• Final Resolution:
  After additional damage during attempted corrections and a broken shipment, the vendor agreed at last to remake the chairs. After a year and a half, the client finally received the correct, undamaged pieces.
• Client Communication:
  Leaned into transparency with clients (who happened to be friends), emphasizing past vendor successes to maintain trust and perspective.
  • “I just kept reminding them, like, things can happen. It’s just human nature...I promise you that this vendor is reliable, does quality work, you know, that you’ve experienced it.” (Designer, [41:23])
• Key Learnings:
  • Update process documentation.
  • Require in-progress photos before shipping.
  • Build explicit checkpoints into production (“Once the frame is built...once the upholstery is placed...before it’s finally packaged and shipped...” [44:21])
  • Step up checkpoints without being overbearing—just prudent.
• Reflection:
  This episode underscored the massive cost (financial, reputational, emotional) of insufficient checks and communication, but also the value of grace, transparency, and patience.

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|-------|-----------| | Designer’s Problem & Vendor Breakdown | 01:09–04:20 | | Kevin Isbell’s Background | 06:46–12:40 | | Advice on Managing Vendor Mistakes | 13:37–20:25 | | Navigating Client vs. Vendor Responsibility | 20:27–25:51 | | Vetting and Backbone in Vendor Relationships | 25:51–29:36 | | Fostering Mutual Respect | 30:36–33:40 | | Importance of Momentum | 33:40–35:17 | | Follow-up: How It All Turned Out | 35:17–44:18 |

---

Conclusion

This episode demystifies the painful—but universal—challenge of vendor mistakes in design and offers actionable, candid advice steeped in real experience. The core message: client experience and your own reputation always come before sparing yourself a loss; relationships, documentation, and grace are your best protective measures in the unpredictable world of custom creative work.

Memorable Wisdom:
“Even small fish have teeth.” The job of the designer is not just to create beauty, but to be a vigilant protector of their clients’ trust, even when that means standing up for oneself, absorbing a loss, or—sometimes—letting go.

---

Transcript

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Ask Us Anything as we wrap up the first season of the show, we're taking a break this month to gather even more of your questions about building a better design business. That's why I've picked out one of my favorite episodes from the year to share with you today. It's my conversation with Los Angeles designer Kevin Isbell, who joined the show to field a question from a designer whose order for a pair of custom chairs had gone completely side and who had called in looking for better ways to hold his vendors accountable. We've also got a fun update from our Question Asker, so if you stick around for the end of the episode, he'll tell us how he put Kevin's advice into practice and whether or not he was ever able to install those chairs in his client's home. Remember, if you have a question of your own, we would love to hear from you. And you can find the Trade Tales team by emailing tradetalesusinessofhome.com we'll be back with an exciting batch of new episodes starting in February, but for now, happy New Year and enjoy the show.

[Question Asker / Designer]

I ran into a scenario where I've worked with a vendor that I worked with in the past, so thought I had a really good relationship with, but there were certainly a couple aha Moments that occurred that have given me some pause and just wanted me to maybe reevaluate my process or paperwork or how I interact with those vendors to ensure that I am not the one suffering or my clients aren't the ones suffering.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Our Question Asker launched his own firm three years ago after spending more than a decade at larger design companies. Now that he's on his own, he's more directly involved in procurement than ever before, and he's finding that sometimes the process can be downright painful. He reached out to the show with a story of an order gone awry.

[Question Asker / Designer]

So I would say within the last six months I was doing some custom chairs for a client. Appropriate po, specifications were done, details were all outlined within that po, sent it off to the vendor. They seem to be a okay with everything detailed within that fast forward four or five months. As soon as I received the photos from the receiving warehouse, I automatically realized, darn it, something wasn't right about these pieces that we had made. And so I reached out to the vendor, I said, hey, this doesn't match the specifications. They admitted that they made a mistake and then it just all kind of.

Crumbled from There, like the.

[Interviewer / Host]

The what do we do about this mistake together kind of conversation.

[Question Asker / Designer]

Correct. And so I felt kind of in a pinch, because I am very much a client pleaser, and I will bend over backwards and try and problem solve as much as I can for my clients. And so I felt kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place because I'm trying to get these chairs corrected. But I also have a vendor that's not really participating or actively involved in trying to get them corrected. So the first step was, let's try and get these chairs corrected at a local workroom so that we don't have to deal with freight and possible additional adjustments that became a disaster because that.

Work room couldn't fix them.

And so here we are, like, six months after the original delivery of these chairs, and they're still not fixed. And so it was an aha moment of like, all right, well, what do I need to change about my process to ensure that I'm not liable, that my clients don't suffer because of the mistakes that are occurring?

[Interviewer / Host]

And just like, who pays for all of this? Right.

[Question Asker / Designer]

And who pays for all of this? Exactly.

[Interviewer / Host]

Every single piece of this sounds expensive.

[Question Asker / Designer]

It does. And I have empathy towards the. The vendor because I know the fix isn't going to be cheap. But I also, as a small business, relatively new to the business, or at least on my own, I don't have the capital or the funds to necessarily cover other people's mistakes or. But I certainly can also go back to my client and have them pay for it. It's not their issue. So I would say one of the aha moments was certainly photos before it's sent out, so I could recognize any discrepancy that might be present via a photo. I've looked into changing some of my purchase order verbiage, adding some lines about liability or who's going to fix this if problems arise, or how long do we have to rectify this issue before it needs to be refunded?

[Interviewer / Host]

You had another great example you sent. It was more on kind of like the damages.

[Question Asker / Designer]

Yeah. It's still related to these custom pieces. When it went to the workroom, they got damaged from the workroom.

[Interviewer / Host]

Oh, geez. Okay.

[Question Asker / Designer]

That's not the original vendor's error, but also the troubleshooting that was recommended per the vendor. And so now instead of damaged frames, we're talking about damaged fabric. And it's like, who has to buy more fabric? It's one of those terrible scenarios that has just snowballed out of control. I'M just curious is like, is there scenarios where you do have to take legal action, or is there certain verbiage that you need to include in contracts to prevent that? And I feel like the small fish in a big pond trying to fight the fight, right? I don't necessarily have the means or the manpower or the hours to accomplish that. And so I'm just trying to figure out in the future how do I protect myself from this happening again?

[Caitlin Peterson]

There are two issues at stake here. One, our Question Asker's vendors aren't standing by him, and that's obviously not okay. But two, his clients are still missing a pair of chairs, and in my experience, that's actually the much bigger problem. As we ended our call, I knew just who to connect with to help our Question Asker find his footing. Someone who pulls no punches when vetting vendors, who's navigated some very expensive mistakes, and who's adamant that the client's experience should come first, no matter the cost. All that and more in just a moment. Hey designers, It's a new year, which means it's the perfect time to start thinking about what you really want from your business and also how you're going to get there. If you're ready to get some real momentum behind those goals, consider becoming a BOH Insider. It's a membership program tailored to the needs of busy design professionals that gives you exclusive access to BOH Reports reporting, as well as a weekly curriculum of online workshops led by some of the industry's most respected voices. Even better, you'll also get access to a rich archive of past courses so you can always find the guidance you need no matter what challenges you're navigating in your business. Explore the benefits of becoming a BOH Insider [e-mail] BohInsider.

[Interviewer / Host]

Today I'm joined by.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Former Trade Tales guest Kevin Isbell, whose Los Angeles firm is in the midst of several exciting projects, including an upcoming wallpaper collaboration and a historic restoration in Virginia. When Kevin was on the show the first time, he shared the story of how he rose through the ranks of several top design firms before launching his own business in 2009. I thought he'd be the perfect person to answer today's question.

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. Trade Tales listeners here heard from you back in 2022, where we talked about the work you did to build a business model that doesn't require runaway growth to be successful. And I think how you were navigating sort of the immediate aftermath of the Pandemic, which seems like a lifetime ago.

[Kevin Isbell]

It really does.

[Interviewer / Host]

What have you been up to since then?

[Kevin Isbell]

Oh, geez, where do we start? I guess the highlights would be, I have a new two skew line of wallpaper coming out in collaboration with Gracie, which I'm super excited about. Because when you think about wallpaper, I mean, there is no other right. And bespoke realm. So I'm really excited about that and hopefully by fall we'll kind of get those things nailed down, the coloration and, you know, all of that. But it's based on a paper that I did for them for Legends, which is the sort of design market week in Los Angeles this year, rebranded as Design la.

[Interviewer / Host]

I feel like in some ways their, their look and their viewpoint is so specific, right. You see a Gracie paper and you just know, what did you want to add to that? Or what was it like to sort of bring your own viewpoint into that conversation?

[Kevin Isbell]

Visually, we went with something very contemporary, Right. They're definitely known for their scenics and their sort of Asian inspired designs. This is kind of the polar opposite. What we did for Legends was the theme that year was Houses in Bloom. So the paper I did had just gigantic organic blooms, right. Four and a half feet diameter. Wow. And then we painted the entire building so the background of the paper was black. We painted the entire paper black. And then we had a decorative artist come in, paint on the walls and paint across to connect the two windows. And then there's a local firm here that does these larger than life, almost Willy Wonka sort of inspired paper flowers. So I lined the windows in moss and then we had these giant things coming out. Then the background of that is these larger than life kind of florals. So the two that we're doing are based on that. We're calling it Legends and then Demi Legends. It's just sort of fun and light hearted and great. But the thing is, with Gracie, you can do whatever you want, right? So you can change the diameter of the flower, you change the color, you can change the flower, you could add your pet dog into the situation. You know, it's because everything is custom made to you. It's a fun process and it's exciting. So now we're kind of waiting for flower studies from their, their studio to come in where they're kind of doing, you know, So I, I spent some time just kind of walking around and anytime I was out and saw bloom, I would take a photo of it. It's like, oh, I like how this rose is completely open in this One or. I love this bee sitting on this. So it was fun. And then they're going to take that sort of information and extrapolate it through the Gracie studios in China. And so I'm excited about that.

[Interviewer / Host]

When you're adding something to the line versus commissioning something custom for a client, how different is the process, the development process?

[Kevin Isbell]

When you're doing it for a client, you have a defined space that you're filling.

[Interviewer / Host]

Right.

[Kevin Isbell]

So this is not. This is more figuring it out, designing, and then it's like, okay, how many panels would it take to kind of create the. The scene, so to speak?

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah.

[Kevin Isbell]

So in that regard, it is, you know, sketching. But then it's like, okay, now what happens beyond the page?

[Interviewer / Host]

Right, right.

[Kevin Isbell]

And then so they'll come back and give like a 10 panel sketch of how they think that it could, you know, sort of work. But basically I had to work on their wings are 6 foot by 8 foot. So we thought in a 6 foot by 8 foot grid so that it's like, how are they displayed and what's going to show the most information on that?

[Interviewer / Host]

Oh, that's really amazing. I would never have thought of that.

[Kevin Isbell]

So it is, it's different. Right. Because when it's for a client, I say, okay, here's the elevations. I want this skew number. You know, less butterflies, more hummingbirds, and then that's it.

[Question Asker / Designer]

Right.

[Kevin Isbell]

And then they come back to me with how it's gonna go across all the panels. I think we really see it in a more hospitality kind of situation. Right. Where it's just big and bold and fun.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's amazing. What else gets you excited when you're walking into work these days?

[Kevin Isbell]

These days? Well, I am working on the renovation and restoration of a national registered house in Charlottesville, Virginia. That is really exciting. It's a whole new sort of beast with that. Luckily, the architect has to deal with most of the, you know, things we can and can't do as far as the registry. So it's exciting. It's exciting. And it's just, I get to flex a different muscle.

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, are you ready to give some advice?

[Kevin Isbell]

I can certainly try, yes.

[Interviewer / Host]

All right. Well, this week we are fielding a question from a designer who went out on his own about three years ago after more than a decade of working for other firms. In his previous roles, he had colleagues who were the ones who got in the weeds when there were vendor issues. And now he is a solopreneur with an expensive pair of chairs that arrived with the wrong finish once These chairs arrive with the wrong finish. He talks to the vendor, they say, no, no, no, like, don't send them back. We don't want to take them back. Just send them to a local refinisher, they make a recommendation, the work gets done, and in the process, the upholstery is damaged. So now he's got this nightmare also in terms of figuring out who's responsible for what. How do you hold each party accountable? And also his client just still doesn't.

[Kevin Isbell]

Have chairs right here. And that is the biggest issue.

[Interviewer / Host]

I was just going to say, where do you start when you hear this? Sort of like, first this, then that, then this. Who pays? Who's responsible? What would you do first?

[Kevin Isbell]

One thing I learned way back in design school, and I will never forget it, is a teacher said to me, designers homes are furnished by their mistakes, which it's unfortunate. It really, really is. But at the end of the day, you really have to protect your client. Your client needs to be happy at the end. So I don't know the extent of how the finish was wrong, but could they have been rejected at the receiver? Right. Therefore, the original person had no recourse but to accept them back because they were rejected. Right. I don't know if that was an option at the time or if he received photos after the fact, you know, but there's no amount of documentation and follow up that can avoid human error. I mean, they can minimize it as much as possible.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah.

[Kevin Isbell]

But it is unfortunate and it does happen.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. I think that's actually an amazing thing to hear, is that this isn't necessarily like, that this can happen to anybody and that it's not. Maybe there's some processes you can put in place, but also, like, this could still happen even with all the right processes in place.

[Kevin Isbell]

I can tell you of a story in New York City where we were building a cabinet for the gentleman's television in the family room, and the television kept getting bigger and the cabinet kept getting bigger. So we measured that it would fit in in the space where it belonged. When we got it there, it would not fit up the stairs, which then meant we needed to crane it up and over the townhouse, in through the library balcony, and into the space that it was going to, only to then recognize that the chair rail sticks out an inch and a quarter more than the base board does. So it fit between the baseboards. It did not fit between the chair molding, which then meant this piece needed to come back out, be hoisted yet again up over the townhouse, and Back to storage. That, my friend, is a very expensive mistake. Hoisting a piece of furniture in the middle of Manhattan is definitely not the most economical way to move in a piece of furniture to one.

[Interviewer / Host]

I'm just like doing the math in my head of like, did you pay to close the street? And like, also to park the crane and also to rent the crane.

[Kevin Isbell]

Like, ah, well, luckily there's, there's a company there called Hours Rigging and they deal with all of that. But yes, the answer is yes, they, you know, so it happens and it's awful and it unfortunate that this particular person encountered such a mistake early in their career. But the client needs to be protected at all cost because as they say, happy people tell, you know, two or three people, unhappy people let anywhere from 10 to 12 people know. Right. Which is also something he could work into his own defense. Right. So if these people don't want to take care of it and they are professionals, then, you know, he, he can just start letting people know that I would not work with them because they don't stand behind their word. Yeah, I try to work with the same people. My upholster I've been with for 20 some years, my drapery workroom, all of those people that those relationships are not only easier because there's a shorthand I can say, you know, give me a, you know, give me a Wilson arm like we did and with a Smith, you know, skirt or something like that. But it's also when things like this happen, they're more adept at taking care of it. They're more willing to sort of help you out because you have a long standing relationship with them.

[Interviewer / Host]

When you go back to a situation like this one, what does taking care of the client mean in this instance? Is that ordering a new set of chairs from the original vendor, is that saying, gosh, I'm so sorry and reselecting. Is there some version where you're also saying, here's something that we've borrowed in the meantime for you? How would you solve this problem?

[Kevin Isbell]

Yeah, I would first and foremost try to get something that filled that hole immediately. Because those two chairs, and I don't know how long they've been out of the house since the installation, but every time they sit in that room, they see those two chairs, spaces that are unoccupied. So I would try to get that situation remedied so that there is at least something there. Then I would go back to the vendor and say, okay, you now own these two chairs. I need to end the finish that I requested and like, let's go. What's hanging on? But I don't know the, the history that this person has with the vendor. I don't know if it's someone new or it's someone that they've had a long standing relationship with. If it's someone they had a long standing relationship with, then that's completely unacceptable and it should be broken immediately because we're only as good as the vendors that we bring onto the job.

[Interviewer / Host]

Is there a world where you would just kind of replace that order and buy that second set of chairs from that vendor just to make it happen faster?

[Kevin Isbell]

If it comes down to ruining the relationship with the client, then yes.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah.

[Kevin Isbell]

I currently have a 12 foot dining table in that has been sitting in storage for years because the client wanted a table that set 14 and in her head she thought that was 14ft and. But 12 foot will. Will accommodate 14. But there was a miscommunication and at the end it was like, do I want to ruin this relationship over 10, $12,000, whatever it was, or do I just want to make the client happy, move on and hope that sometime down the road I can replace this piece?

[Interviewer / Host]

And that's always the right choice.

[Kevin Isbell]

And to me, the client is one, the reason I'm here, two, the reason I'm eating, you know, and so it's unfortunate, but it's not the client's fault.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, it's.

[Kevin Isbell]

Sadly, the vendor is not being professional. The vendor is not standing by their word. And outside of legal action, I don't know what else you can do. And the longer it drags on, the more I think it's going to leave a bad taste in this client's mouth.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hey, designers. I wanted to tell you a little bit more about the benefits of becoming a BoH insider. Once you sign up, you get access to a weekly lineup of workshops that dig into the real mechanics of running a design firm. We're talking about everything from how to structure a flat fee to maximize profit to strategies for transforming client conversations so you can close the more sales with confidence. You'll learn how to develop a marketing budget that actually moves the needle, create a pipeline of consistent leads, and refine your charging strategies so that your pricing supports the business you want, not the one you're stuck in. If you're ready to tighten your systems, sharpen your strategy, and make smarter decisions across your business, becoming a BoH insider is a powerful place to to start. Explore the benefits of becoming a BoH Insider [e-mail] BohInsider.

[Interviewer / Host]

Does it ever make sense to pursue legal action for something like this? What's your take on that?

[Kevin Isbell]

I guess it depends on the number attached to it. And then it's expensive, it's time consuming. It takes an emotional train on you. So you're not only out the cost of the replacement of the chairs, because if you go to legal action, you're now buying those chairs. Right.

[Question Asker / Designer]

Because.

[Interviewer / Host]

Right, right.

[Kevin Isbell]

The vendor is not going to work with you at that point. So then you're out the cost of, of legal representation and the possibility of own two chairs. So I think in this instance, it's unfortunate and it's heartbreaking, but I think he owns two chairs that he will just have to specify into a new. A new project. One, the time, when the time presents.

[Interviewer / Host]

Itself, are there, are there things that you've added to your contracts, to your terms with vendors that can help mitigate some problems like this?

[Kevin Isbell]

Well, I, it, it starts with the work order, but there aren't really terms because you're not really signing a contract with your upholsterer, let's say. And I don't know if he got these from, you know, like a bespoke upholster like Lutha Quintana in New York City, or if these are something that he bought through a showroom. Right. So that, that's information. I don't know, but just trying to document everything. Getting finished samples, getting finished photography before it's released.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, I think he said he's going to start doing that.

[Kevin Isbell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not everyone will do that, which is really unfortunate. And it's the bigger companies that don't want to do that, which is really somewhat annoying, you know, but you just have to document everything and make sure that the invoices say what you want. The seat height, the seat depth, the arm height, you know, if you have the ability to sketch it out as to how you want it to look, great. Constant communication, you know, with my upholstery, using Luther as an example, I will stop in and do a midway process. It's in muslin. How are we going to lay out the. How is the fabric laying out? And it will do all of those things along the way. But again, you can do all of that and it can still come wrong.

[Interviewer / Host]

Right.

[Kevin Isbell]

And then there's also how wrong is wrong? Does the finish still work? Is it off a shade or were they supposed to be red and they're actually blue? Right. There's a difference between what's an acceptable tolerance of mistake and what's a flat out mistake. If the finish on the leg was supposed to be red mahogany, it's brown mahogany. It's like, okay, does it still work? Is this issue worth pulling it from the installation, disappointing the client going through all of the issue to have it fixed, or can it work? Maybe it wasn't in your original concept of what it would look like, but does it still work in the space?

[Interviewer / Host]

Do you talk about that with a client or how do you talk about that with a client?

[Kevin Isbell]

Don't ask, don't tell.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. Okay.

[Kevin Isbell]

Now going back to the. They were supposed to be red and they came in blue, then obviously that's a thing, right?

[Interviewer / Host]

Right.

[Kevin Isbell]

But once the room is installed, if it still gives what it was supposed to give. Quoting the kids, right? If it's giving what it's supposed to give, then maybe it's just time to pivot, change lanes and keep moving. And then also a qualified mover has a million things up their sleeve that they can fix. You know, a crushed leg, a scratched finish, things like that. There is, there's an arsenal of things that can handle those mistakes that also keep you moving forward.

[Interviewer / Host]

Can we talk a little bit about vetting vendors in general? I know you have these long standing relationships when you're exploring working with someone new. What are you looking for that can help you avoid some situations like this one?

[Kevin Isbell]

Right. Well, I'm starting with my colleagues. Right. So, hey, you know, who do you use for this? Right. For instance, this, this project in Virginia. There are designers out there that I, that I know, and I was like, okay, I need a good shipping and receiving company. Who do you recommend? And just vetting them as much as you can. So if someone else has been like in the trenches with them, then they can vouch for whether or not they're good. That's your starting point. And then I guess look for red flags when you're talking to them. Are they communicating back? Does it take a week and a half to get a reply to an email? Is your quote, request, you know, in the body of an email? Or is it on letterhead with all of the details that you have requested? And it just shows their professionalism in that. And then trust your gut, really, if something doesn't feel right about them, then keep looking, I guess. Or who are some of the clients that you've worked with? How was your relationship with them? And if every designer they've ever worked with were complete idiots and didn't know what they were doing, then that's a red flag, right? Because obviously if they're shifting the blame, which it kind of sounds like is happening for this, this person, you know, that's also a red flag. But again, you never know. People can promise the world and deliver you sand. And unfortunately, that is kind of what happens when you're first starting out. You know, it's interesting because it's kind of a full circle. When we were talking last, I guess in 2022, I did have this issue when I went out on my own from a large, large firm. I was a design director. I was there for years, and then all of a sudden I was no longer this big fish that was bringing in billions of orders to them. I was now the new guy that maybe had one or two projects a year.

[Interviewer / Host]

And they talk to you differently, I bet.

[Kevin Isbell]

And they talk to you differently. Absolutely. Because they always knew you as sort of their equal to the head person. Right. And so in that case, it's time to find new vendors who are going to put you as their big fish.

[Interviewer / Host]

When you started your firm, did you have to do a lot of kind of recalibrating on who you wanted to work with then?

[Kevin Isbell]

Yeah, I actually had one vendor who would not work with me, period. A carpet dealer. And that. Which was great because then it ended up me forming a long lasting relationship with my rug dealer in New York. And to this day, they're still my vendor. Right. Even though I'm now based in Los Angeles and I work all over the country, they're still my go to people.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's awesome. That's amazing to have those relationships for so long.

[Kevin Isbell]

Yeah, it's helpful, you know, and it's like you're supporting them and they're supporting you. And this kind of goes back to the issue at hand, building those relationships. And I just can't see in this day and age, for me, at this point in my career, that I would be working with an upholsterer who would not take these things back, that they would risk my relationship with them. And he should also remember that even though I think he calls himself a small fish, even small fish have teeth. Right. So he might need to get a little bit more forceful on this situation.

[Interviewer / Host]

You will take these back. You will do this for me.

[Kevin Isbell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

Right.

[Kevin Isbell]

Or this is the end of our working relationship as we know it. So you're either going to do right by me in this moment, in your error, because it sounds like he has documentation that the error is theirs, or you're not. Right. And if you're not, then that's great. I'll move on and you will no longer have my business. And trust and behold, at every networking event, if anyone asks me who I recommended as an upholsterer, I am going to tell you. Like, I had an issue with a very famous Italian closet company. I won't name their names, but the errors and the things that just kept happening were just, it was egregious to a point where it was like, okay, so then I was like, I was telling anyone. It's like, she's not. I'm your FedEx delivery driver, dude. I don't really care about your closet system, but I would tell anyone.

[Interviewer / Host]

You know, you mentioned before this idea of, you know, these vendor relationships are truly relationships that you've invested in, that you've built. What is the secret at the beginning, especially to creating that trust, creating that mutual respect with the people that you want to be your long term partners.

[Kevin Isbell]

That's exactly it. The word respect. I may know how I want the sofa to look, but Luther Quintana is the expert at how it should be. So I'm going to come to him and say, this is what I would like. How do we get there? And then I need to rely on his expertise to take me there. Right. I can detail it and write out as much as possible, but if it's not the way it's properly done or, you know, he'll be the first to tell me like, I don't think that detail is going to work with, you know, how you want it to. I'm like, okay, great. Like that's what I'm looking to you for because that's, we all come into this with our own area of expertise and, and I know how I want it to look at the end, but it's their responsibility and their area of expertise to get me there and to get me there where it's beautifully done. So I do think it's, it's respect, first and foremost, respecting them for their craft and respecting them for the, the years and countless number of pieces they've. I'm just using a poster because that's, you know, the, the topic at hand. But it, any, any vendor, right. But I'm, I'm looking to them for their years experience in how it needs to be done so that pro that it works and functions properly. Like, I know how a house should look. I can't build you one. Right. I will give you details and all that, but I cannot build that house. It's an unfortunate situation, but I think every designer has been through it and it is Awful that it happened at an early point and there may or may not be a capital cushion to absorb it.

[Interviewer / Host]

Right.

[Kevin Isbell]

But I just think it's an unfortunate situation that is not the client's fault. And keeping the piece that the client purchased from or a piece similar to that from them is, in the long run hurting the relationship between the client and the designer. And you can fight your battles with vendor behind the scenes. Right. My clients will never know. Going back to that dining table, it was like, okay, 14ft, great, boom, done. Right? And crying, literally crying afterwards, like in.

[Interviewer / Host]

The car on the way home.

[Kevin Isbell]

Yeah, yeah, right. But, you know, at the, at the end of the day, it is the client at the top of the hill and we have to make sure that they remain that way because it's what keeps us employed. It's what keeps referrals coming in. It's what helps with the second job when they buy the beach house or the house in the mountains or, you know, upgrade to a larger home. So that first and foremost, you know, is protect the client and therefore protect your reputation.

[Interviewer / Host]

I want to pivot really quickly and ask you about advice that you've received. What's the most meaningful advice you've been given?

[Kevin Isbell]

When I was first starting out on my own, similar to the designer topic, anytime I would be in the company of a more established designer, I would ask them, what word of advice do you have for someone starting out like me, you know, and, and it was, you know, Barbara Berry, it was anyone, if they were speaking and I could get their ear for 10 seconds, I was asking. But one designer said to me, it's keep momentum is everything. Keeping the momentum in the project going is instrumental. Sometimes you have to trust the process, even when it's messy. But keeping the momentum going, it's really hard. Like, I know for myself, if they don't make a decision on something and then they want to do it post installation, it will take me months to find that lamp. It's just because my head's no longer in it. So it is. Keeping the momentum going is not only easier, but it's also a smarter business sense. Just get it done. Some designers want to deliver a piece and then decide on what the next piece is going to be. That's going to drag everything out. So for me, keep the momentum going. It keeps the enthusiasm up and then it gets you in and out of the project actually more quickly.

[Caitlin Peterson]

All these months later, I wondered if our question askers clients had ever gotten those chairs. This week I checked back in with him to Find out. And to get a sense of how Kevin's advice had helped him take the. The next steps.

[Interviewer / Host]

We talked in the spring of last year, and you at the time were navigating this really complicated and kind of devastating situation with a vendor with these chairs. Welcome back. But I know you have an update to share what happened with the chairs.

[Question Asker / Designer]

Yeah, so definitely the debacle continued. Just when you think things are getting resolved and the worries are past you, another thing just continues to happen. So we were working on correcting the chairs locally. Time and time again, things just weren't working, working out. And so the vendor did take the chairs back. Slight delays on them getting us, getting those chairs back to us. And of course, during shipping, the legs of the chairs broke.

[Kevin Isbell]

So.

[Interviewer / Host]

Sorry, I don't mean to laugh.

[Question Asker / Designer]

Yeah, I know it is just one of those. One of those problems that domino and you just can't get out of it. And so obviously that wasn't the fault of the vendor, but of course, it's like another delay that the clients are having to experience. And so essentially what I did is I went back to the vendor and just did kind of like a breakdown of the timeline and the scenarios that we went through to get these chairs fixed and shipped and corrected. And it was quite an extensive list, just breaking down the dates and the timelines and the milestones and, like, how everything has gone wrong throughout that scenario. And so that was like, my final plea is like, all right, these chairs were kind of corrected, shipped back, and broken in shipping. I just did the plea of, like, these need to be done correctly. These need to be fixed. These need to be given to the clients. Non damaged, non, you know, temporarily fixed. We need these to be remade. And luckily, the vendor agreed to that. So I would say the update is, as of a few weeks ago, which is a year and a half after these. The PO was submitted for these chairs. The chairs have been finally received. No damage this time in shipping. I'm happy to report we have chairs, but it was certainly a long, exhausting process.

[Interviewer / Host]

How did Kevin's advice kind of land for you? Or how did that shape your kind of next steps once you heard from him?

[Question Asker / Designer]

Yeah, I think Kevin provided some great insight. I would say one of the insights that I did not love hearing, but I laugh at because I know it's true, is when he mentioned that a lot of the furniture you've find in a designer's house is the mistakes and rejects for projects.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah.

[Question Asker / Designer]

So I guess that advice makes me think about how precise and detailed Anything related to a contract and the process of getting those items or those custom items executed is because you don't want it to default to having something land in your living room because you can't give it to the client. So I think in my scenario I was very lucky that I was working with clients, close friends, so I had the benefit of patience and understanding. But certainly if I was working with a, you know, a different client that I didn't have that relationship with, I certainly understand the value of customer service and doing whatever I needed to do to make sure that the client didn't feel the pinches or the pain points that are experienced in this process. So that is very helpful advice from, from Kevin. Just ensure that that project goes smoothly from what the client is experiencing because they're going to be that repeat customer or that word of mouth that's going to lead to new business.

[Interviewer / Host]

What was your client's experience throughout this? I mean, I love that you had kind of that understanding with them, but how were you thinking as this continued to drag on, for lack of a better word, how did you approach messaging to them? Like, we've got another bump in the road, you know, these are still not ready. Here's what I'm doing now. Like, what was your mindset around explaining what was happening with these pieces?

[Question Asker / Designer]

Yeah, I, I think transparency is to some extent critical and I think with these clients, like, they're very hands on and involved in the process, also being friends of mine. So they were understanding. And I think what ultimately kind of saved it is we've used this vendor for them in the past and they've delivered wonderful, fantastic product that the client has been very excited and thrilled with. So I just kept reminding them, like, things can happen. It's just human nature. We're in a, we're in an industry where not everything is going to be perfect. I am doing my best to try and make it so, and so is the vendor. And we do have to provide, provide a little bit of grace. And I just kept reminding like, once we do get these chairs, you're gonna love them because you love every other thing that this vendor has done for us. And this vendor actually on another piece of furniture that they did, was able to source fabric directly and probably save them $5,000 that way. And so I reminded them, I was like, you know, they've gone above and beyond with other instances where you've saved more money or headache. We're just unfortunately stuck with something that at some point in the process somebody misunderstood a spec or didn't look at the specs and we got something that wasn't right. And now we're just, we're dealing with the headache that has resulted from that. But I promise you that this vendor is reliable, does quality work, you know, that you've experienced it.

[Interviewer / Host]

Was there ever a kernel of fear for you that these chairs would come and the clients would just look at them and just have this like, simmering resentment towards these chairs?

[Question Asker / Designer]

I did, I really did. Because actually during the design process, it's a husband and wife. And the wife really loved these chairs. And the husband was very mediocre about them.

[Interviewer / Host]

Oh, no. Okay.

[Question Asker / Designer]

So the running joke, and luckily we could joke about it, is we called them the four frumpy chairs, even though they're a very high end, nice chair. The husband nicknamed them the frumpy chairs. And so I did have some worry that there would be that, that resentment or disdain for them. But they've come in, they love them and it's, it's what they expected them to be, which is great.

[Interviewer / Host]

How will you carry this with you.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Into the projects that come next?

[Question Asker / Designer]

I've thought a lot about that. I think this was a huge learning point for me. Oftentimes I feel like as designers, we are overwhelmed by time constraints and billables. We're just worried about what a client might think and wonder about our billable hours that we put towards our projects. And this just reminds me, there's so much value in taking extra steps or extra time to ensure that something is done correctly. Because if that is not the case, the result of it is so much more drastic. As I've learned with these chairs. Just, I mean, we're talking a year and a half of somewhat constant involvement to try and get these things fixed. Where I think what I could have done is what if I had just checked in with the vendor before they got packaged to be shipped. And so, you know, oftentimes it's like, okay, I've done everything that I was supposed to, to, but now it's maybe just double checking that the vendor has done so themselves so that, so that these mistakes don't happen. And I think about that, like from a construction administration standpoint, from the architectural side of design, like, I'm going out to site visits, I'm meeting with contractors and tradespersons on site, and if I see something wrong, I flag it, it gets corrected. And so it's using that same mindset and those, I don't know, I guess, practices as part of the FF&E process where you know, I'm not able to be there in the factory or in the manufacturing facility with regards to these custom pieces. But what measures can I take to ensure that if there is an issue that it's caught? And so I think some language in my PO has improved. I've ensured that photos are sent prior to anything being packaged and shipped because I want to get my eyes on it just in case there is, there is something that could be caught.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Are vendors open to that for custom work?

[Question Asker / Designer]

The vendor that did these chairs is I kind of had a heart to heart and I think there is that established relationship with this vendor. Now I don't know if I were to work with somebody new for the first time, if that would be like a red flag for them or feel too micromanagy, but I don't think it has to be super micromanagy. I think it could just be some pivotable checkpoints. Once the frame is built, let's check in. Once the upholstery is placed on the piece, let's check in. Let's check in before it's finally packaged and shipped. Like just a few moments to catch anything and make those corrections before it gets out. Because I've learned once it's been shipped, that's where the headache has kind of come from.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for being here and for everyone listening with a question of your own. I'd love for you to ask us anything. Don't worry, we'll keep it anonymous. Please start the conversation by sending me an email at trade tales businessofhome.com if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. And if you're looking for even more great business advice, head on over to businessofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theater music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you here next week.