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Ask Us Anything: Live with Heather Fujikawa, Jean Stoffer and Grace Start
00:49:07
In a live edition of the show, hosted by Four Hands, Heather Fujikawa of House Sprucing and Jean Stoffer and Grace Start of Jean Stoffer Design shared advice on post-pandemic recruiting tactics, discussing price changes with clients in the era of tariffs, and expanding a firm’s client base to include out-of-state projects.
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- [00:00]
Unknown Host
Foreign.
- [00:04]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in Chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Ask Us Anything where we're tapping former trade sales guests to answer all of your questions about building a better design business. This week we're sharing something fun, our second live episode of the show, which we recorded in Austin, Texas earlier this fall. Jean Stouffer and Grace Start, Jean Stouffer Design and Stouffer Home and Heather Fujikawa of House Sprucing all joined me in the Forehand showroom to field three designer dilemmas. These questions will be familiar if you've tuned in for recent episodes of the show, but the insights that Jean, Grace and Heather offered are delightfully fresh. They also took questions from the audience, delivering smart, on the spot advice that you won't want to miss. I'm so excited to share this one with you. Sit back and enjoy the show. Before we dive in, I've got a quick story to tell you. After we recorded the live episode of this show at Four Hands in Austin, I took a quick drive to visit the Four Hands Art Studio. What I found there was truly inspiring. We started our visit by meeting with a team that works directly with the artists on each reproduction, and while the collaboration differs from artist to artist, what stuck with me was the Four Hands Art Studio's deep respect for its creative partners. There aren't more than 175 artists in the Four Hands roster, and the team's appreciation for the way they each approach their work was unmistakable. So is the profound impact that the partnership has had for so many of these artists, some of whom have been able to quit their day jobs to focus on their art because of their collaboration with Four Hands. I also got to see up close how this vast collection is assembled with an eye toward the variety of styles, subjects, and sizes of works that designers will need to the result of that curation is a versatile, impressive assortment that will feel completely at home in your work. You can find the perfect piece for your next project@4hands.com Art Studio.
- [02:24]
Moderator
Well, our first question is from a designer who wants some advice when it comes to hiring. When I first got on the call with her, I thought she was going to tell me that no one wanted to be in the office five days a week anymore, and it turns out that could not be further from the truth. Her team is happy to come into the office, but she's having trouble finding employees who want to participate in a collaborative work environment. Her employees don't really know how to be team players, and they're not excited about figuring it out. Here is what she had to say.
- [02:54]
Jean Stouffer
Recruiting has always been a challenge, but post Covid recruiting is a special challenge. The hard part with interior design is it is a situation that you cannot design design in a dark room without oxygen. Design needs light. Design needs synergy with our work. You need people in the office. There are plenty of positions that easily can be done from home, whether it's ordering or procurement or something of that nature. But the actual design, the selecting of the materials, touching the materials, the picking, the finishes, that has to be in my mind done in person. And that has been a hard thing to try and find folks that really have the passion to want to be part of a team again.
- [03:41]
Moderator
All right, we are going to get to the heart of this question in a minute, but I want to start with this from each of you. And Heather, I'm going to pick on you first. What does it take to be successful on your team? This designer is looking for collaboration and that kind of spirit of teamwork. But for you, what is the one thing that's sort of non negotiable for anyone that you bring on?
- [04:03]
Heather Fujikawa
They have to be kind. They do. They need to have our company culture of kindness and abundance for everyone on the team, including the employer. And then we want to be abundant with them and then that they're going to give grace and we'll give grace and then that goes into our clients and those we work with, with vendors and it just trickles down. So they can be the most talented person in the world. But those long term players, team players are kind, they're just kind hearted people.
- [04:32]
Moderator
How do you test is the wrong word. But how do you seek out kindness? In the interview process we have multiple.
- [04:39]
Heather Fujikawa
Interviews and then we ask certain questions about their experiences with working with others. That's very important to us. And then we'll also have them meet our leadership, team and team members as well and have their sign off. And then at the very end we have a team mantra motto, if you will. Four Hands actually has an incredible one. It's always been inspired by theirs, but it talks a lot about like proactivity, kindness, not gossiping, you know, having a, creating an overall environment that others can thrive in and that they want to bring to the table every day. That kindness and abundance to be able to bring that to the team. So we have found success with like having them say this, this is what we believe in. Do you, can you sign up for something like this and, and be a participant in this? And that's kind of Our final sign off. And then it's that gut feel at the end. Is this the right hire? Do we feel good about what they're saying? And then we kind of move forward and then we try to empower them with that as they move into that role and make sure we're all being examples of those things that we ask them to do.
- [05:40]
Moderator
That's great. Jane, what does that look like for you? What is the most important quality in your mind?
- [05:46]
Jean Stouffer
I think that's so interesting that your first pursuit is kindness. Because honestly, in a full service design business, as we get started so intimate with people's lives, it can be extremely challenging sometimes to treat the client with respect in the office, among people that are working on the job together, because there's inevitably things that are difficult and we don't understand why they're responding in certain ways. And to maintain an atmosphere where we don't talk negatively about our clients, about our vendors, about the tradespeople on the job, and then just have a culture all the way around it of steering the conversation towards something more positive and encouraging instead of joining. So the first person that's willing to reroute the conversation, we notice. And it's an important culture. And honestly, we've had to have a couple huddles where this is how we talk about people. These are our clients, they are all paying our salary. We are thankful for them, we respect them, and it makes a huge difference. The ripple effect of that into the job site and into with the various contractors, subs that are working on the job. It all matters.
- [07:20]
Grace Start
Well, the main thing she wanted to know about is a collaborative situation in the workplace. And I have the privilege of working alongside the designers on our team. And I think that when we bring in someone works on a presentation, they're pulling finishes and it's like, what do you think of this? What do you think of this paint color with this swatch? And it's like, I love it. You know, it becomes like this fun experience of pulling swatches, pulling finishes, and we're always asking each other, do you like this? Or I hate this? We're going to walk away, we're going to come back tomorrow. But I think us from the top, asking our designers, what do you think of this? And them asking us the same thing creates that collaboration. And then trusting our designers to walk in and represent us. Well, I know that they feel that too. They're thankful for their job when we trust them. And I think sometimes it's hard when your name is on the brand to Hand that off. But the trust goes a long way.
- [08:29]
Moderator
I like that idea of kind of from the top kind of model and collaboration or asking for feedback for all of you. What are other ways to really foster that collaborative environment or to get someone excited about working with others creatively?
- [08:43]
Heather Fujikawa
I love what Grace said about the trust. Just because you're enabling them and empowering them and then you're cheering them on. So I would say as a leader in your firm, you do need to give edits and you do need to, you know, make sure it has the marksmanship of, of your design aesthetic. But sometimes 80% of what you would do is enough. You've got to trust them because they're not going to get there until you're like, go for it, girl. That looks amazing. You know, because if you are too much editing on them, they're just not. It's going to stifle their creativity, at least in my experience. So I have seen great rewards where they just fly when I give them more and more responsibility and trust. And it's, it also lightens my load and it frees up me to be able to work on other things in the business, which has been game changer for our overall organization.
- [09:31]
Moderator
Tell me more about that 80%. Is that just in the initial phase or is that sort of saying, well, this is 80% what I would do all the way through into the client's home.
- [09:39]
Heather Fujikawa
That I think it's specific just because like overall the client's experience is. Has to be 100%. But that 80% could be. Yeah, 80%, that's what I would choose on all the beautiful Four Hands furniture. Right. But maybe that 20%, you're giving them that freedom of choosing things you wouldn't have. But that's also pushing your, your company into a new aesthetic that you didn't know how to fresh take that an editor is going to pick up like that 20% is more of a taking a chance out there on your designer. That also pushes the brand in new ways and, and keeps you having an open mind and not plateauing.
- [10:18]
Jean Stouffer
Yeah, you know, for, for me it's been like, I really love laying out our projects and, and space planning and then thinking particularly about how cabinetry and things might work. And it's been really helpful the last few years to sketch my designs, show them to our designers and say, what do you see that could be made a little better here? And so inviting them in to edit my stuff. And sometimes they come up with things that are like a fresh take a new way of thinking about something that really is great. That's a. That's kind of a boost for everybody.
- [10:58]
Moderator
Is. Is there a secret to. Well, how many of you had someone who wasn't excited about collaboration and how have you sort of nudged them in the right direction?
- [11:08]
Grace Start
Yeah, I think everybody has been pretty excited about collaboration on our team, But I do feel like there's sometimes this underlying competition that could. Could happen. Like, everybody kind of wants the ownership of the design at the end, but I think my mom models that so well, of kind of giving people those accolades in the office, of saying, that was a really good job. You hit it out of the park with this one. We're so grateful to have you on our team. Just those words of affirmation and not just edits, because we have to edit too, but the words of affirmation, I think, really go a long way to. To telling the people that work with you that you appreciate them so much. And so then when they come into the office, they know that they're being appreciated for all the work that they're putting in.
- [11:57]
Moderator
Zooming out a little bit, how have you approached hiring in general, and how are you approaching hiring differently at sort of different levels of expertise? Because I think you're looking for different things. You're looking for different qualities at different stages of skill level and leadership in your company.
- [12:16]
Heather Fujikawa
I mean, I think we're always hiring, and so we always want to have that mindset. So because you're always looking for that talent to come into your organization that is the right fit in so many ways of talented designer and a great fit for the team and a salesperson all in one. I mean, those are some big things, you know, big asks. So we're always kind of putting out feelers out there to hire. And so we're always interviewing so we can find those people along the way. I think that if you have a mindset of that, then sometimes, like right now, we have a very talented person ready to go, and we're not really ready to pull the trigger on hiring someone, but whenever we do, there's somehow. There's more work. Somehow it opens up, and it's like they're supposed to be on the team. And so that's helped us scale is having faith in others and finding the right fit and then just leaning into it.
- [13:04]
Moderator
Have you sometimes then kind of moved forward and made a hire that wasn't maybe the role or the person that you were looking for because it was the right person?
- [13:12]
Heather Fujikawa
Yes. And then that opens up doors that you didn't even know. Okay. I guess we're supposed to be going in this direction or this person's supposed to be part of the organization. I think for us, the company, it's so much bigger than just like what's on paper and filling needs currently. Yeah, it's really, where's this thing supposed to go? Let's take this on a ride with everyone, build this all together and see it fly.
- [13:34]
Jean Stouffer
So, yeah, I would say Grace and I have been thinking about this, that we have two ways of hiring that have been extremely successful and one way that has been a failure. And we've failed pretty much at every level of hiring someone that we've put out an announcement for and finding that person from having announced the job out to the public. And then the two huge successes have been hiring from within, starting with very low level positions and just we can identify work ethic, desire and the buzzwords, company culture. We've been able to elevate, I think dozens of people in our firm up to higher levels because we see who they are. And then the other way that we've had a lot of success is asking our team, who do you know? And bringing those people in. We just recently hired a new top coo and we found this person by being really diligent about defining this role. So a very specific job description. And then everybody in the family, some of, you know, three of our kids work with us, Grace and two of her brothers. And we got on the phone and started calling people that we know saying, do you know anyone who could fit this role? Can I send you the job description? And that's how we found our person.
- [15:12]
Moderator
What kind of people did you call? Who were you looking at personally and being like, gosh, who do I know who might know the right person?
- [15:19]
Caitlin Peterson
Sure.
- [15:20]
Grace Start
We had kind of a roundtable discussion where we all sat down together and we just started naming people from every aspect of life, like clients, past clients, church members, people that we knew from growing up, people who are engaged in the local communities, people who are in charge of schools and in charge. It was just kind of like, who do you know? It wasn't like, okay, only high powered people. It was like, who do you know who's connected?
- [15:48]
Moderator
Does that just yield the right candidate or did that yield a lot of candidates for the job?
- [15:54]
Jean Stouffer
It didn't yield a ton, but it was extreme quality.
- [15:59]
Moderator
Would you take that approach for another role maybe that wasn't kind of so executive level in your firm?
- [16:09]
Grace Start
That's how we found our two lead designers. We found from asking our team if they know anybody, because we would get a bunch of resumes and it was like, that's not quite what we need. And so we'd be like, do you guys know anybody?
- [16:26]
Moderator
Actually, Emily in Chicago is looking to.
- [16:29]
Grace Start
Move back to Grand Rapids. And it's like, she's perfect.
- [16:32]
Jean Stouffer
Yeah.
- [16:33]
Moderator
That's incredible. All right, we are going to keep moving. We've got another question asker. This question asker is struggling with how to talk about money with clients. Hard pivot. Sorry. More specifically, she is realizing that, especially as prices that she's quoted already keep going up, she needs to take a little bit of a different approach in terms of how she talks to her clients about those prices and maybe about the cost of the project in general. We are going to hear from her now.
- [17:02]
Question Asker 1
I think it's mainly showing up when a client, you do a consult, you have a proposal out and they take a long time to get back to you. So then they go and look at it and then they know. They actually asked have the price has.
- [17:16]
Jean Stouffer
Gone up a lot since.
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Question Asker 1
And I'm like, yes. You know, they're understanding. And I always just tell people, I'm like, prices are what they are. I can't change the prices of things. No matter what, somebody's going to pay for it. How you word that in a contract, very difficult.
- [17:30]
Moderator
I want to start with the what's in your contract part. Specifically, how long do each of you guarantee prices in your proposals?
- [17:38]
Jean Stouffer
We say 30 days. There are some circumstances where we'll send a quote or they've accepted a quote and then send an invoice and say they're having a price increase increase on October 15th. So it's go time. And if we don't get it by then, we're going to have to redo all this. So we tell them that on phone. We tell them that on the invoice itself. We tell them that on the email that has the invoice in it. We just tell them, tell them, tell them.
- [18:08]
Grace Start
But I think when. When the firm was just my mom and I, I think that would be so hard if you were lean and you're trying to keep track of everything going on in the job site and everything going on in the pricing world. I think that would be just so difficult. So the reason why we can do that and keep track of all that stuff is because we have a procurement manager. I. I give so much respect for the people out there just running everything because maybe just give yourself a little more cushion.
- [18:38]
Jean Stouffer
Yeah, I would just Say, do a date like this is not even, say 30 days, but this is good until a specific date.
- [18:47]
Grace Start
And then mark it up 5 more percent.
- [18:49]
Jean Stouffer
Right, right.
- [18:51]
Moderator
Heather, how long do you guarantee prices for?
- [18:53]
Heather Fujikawa
Yeah, we're right in line with that type of process. I think when it sounds businessy, because it is. It's a business. There's a lot of respect there. And then they see that. It's. It's not emotional. It's like there's reasons why there might be a price increase, like tariffs or things like that. So, yeah, sticking to that and not making it. I'm sorry. Or emotional. It's just the facts. Right.
- [19:14]
Moderator
I want to come back to that.
- [19:15]
Jean Stouffer
Like.
- [19:15]
Moderator
Yeah, that kind of, like how you talk about that in a sort of less granular way. How are you talking about the fact that prices are changing a lot right now with clients? And are they receptive to those conversations?
- [19:26]
Heather Fujikawa
For us, yes, because people. I mean, the people are aware of the economy, of the state of the economy right now, and that there are so many changes and increases. And so a lot of our clients will just. Yeah, I get it. You know, and a lot of times we're trying to make that sale on the day of their presentation. And, you know, these are the prices today.
- [19:44]
Jean Stouffer
What.
- [19:44]
Heather Fujikawa
What are you ready to move forward with today? And that helps them save money, and it helps them make decisions, which helps them be decisive. So there's some good things that could come out of it if you lean into that and use it as a power of, you know, trying to get. Get things done for your clients.
- [20:00]
Moderator
Have you always wanted clients to make decisions like that, like the day of the presentation, or is that something that has become much more in focus for you, sort of in this moment when there is sort of a financial incentive to do that?
- [20:11]
Heather Fujikawa
Yeah, we are always. How many decisions can we make today? Because we want to save time for our clients, and we want to. If. If we are dragging out their design process, that's more hours that we're probably going to have to bill them. So we're trying to be decisive as quick as possible. We do our best work. We present it. We want them to move along in the. We also, a lot of our clients hire us because they can't make decisions or have a hard time making decisions. So if we're drawing these decisions out, we're giving them decision fatigue. And that's not why they came to us. They came to us for aid and assistance and to, like, let's make decisions and make your home beautiful. So we do definitely encourage our team and try as ourselves to make quick decisions and get them to purchase what they're ready for.
- [20:52]
Moderator
How are the two of you kind of talking about the cost of the project and, like, fluctuating costs in general? Are you also kind of having people make decisions right away and write that check, or is there a little bit more back and forth?
- [21:03]
Jean Stouffer
I would say every client is different. And there are some people that are just like, this all looks good, great. We send the QuickBooks. It comes back, we're like, whoa. And then there's others that honestly, it's like, are you there? And follow up, and follow up and reprice. Because so our job is just. I mean, we can't make people do anything. It's just to try to keep moving forward with grace and not being exasperated.
- [21:36]
Moderator
That's right. Because you don't talk. You can't talk badly about it.
- [21:38]
Jean Stouffer
No.
- [21:39]
Moderator
What do some of those early money conversations then look like, both in terms of, you know, timeline of the job and also changing costs of doing design work? Right now, a lot of clients, when.
- [21:50]
Grace Start
We first get started, they ask us, how much do you think this is going to cost? And we never answer that question. We do not know. We don't know what you spend with your contractor. We don't know how much change you're going to have over the course of this. We have no idea. And so be like, do you think I can do a kitchen for X? And we're like, you could. You could also do it for double that, and you could also probably figure out how to do it for half of that. So we have no idea what your project is going to cost.
- [22:20]
Jean Stouffer
So we have, like, ballparks, and if they feel like they can be in that ballpark, then they feel secure going forward with us. So we've kind of determined some price per square foot for the house, what your furnishing budget could be, what your cabinetry budget should be, what your lighting budget should be. For each category, we've gone to some historic projects and learned, okay, the house is this many square feet. This was their lighting budget. Divide it.
- [22:53]
Grace Start
But that was two years ago and now.
- [22:55]
Jean Stouffer
Right.
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Grace Start
It is so crazy how much has changed in even two years.
- [23:00]
Moderator
I mean, you said clients have been pretty understanding. We're all sort of seeing the same economic headwinds in the headlines. Are clients receptive to the fact that this is kind of a funny time to be doing design and that prices may change?
- [23:12]
Grace Start
Yes, I think at. At that level, when you're building a custom home or you're doing a large renovation. Those clients are pretty savvy about how much things cost. And so I might hold my breath when I send the invoice. Like, yeah, they're pretty savvy.
- [23:30]
Moderator
Yeah. I mean, that was going to be my next question was to zoom out a lot and say, you know, so many designers tell me that not even just changing prices, but talking about money in general is their biggest pain point in their business. How have each of you either gotten over that or maybe what is sort of the. What is the way that you think about approaching those conversations with a client over time?
- [23:55]
Jean Stouffer
I think what we already mentioned earlier is it's an analytical statement, not an emotional statement. And I think if we bring emotion into it, they're going to receive emotion. If we bring analysis and, you know, like, reporting it at least has the opportunity to stay at that level.
- [24:18]
Heather Fujikawa
And you try not to project your own personal finance choice on something that you would choose as well. Like, oh, I feel uncomfortable. I would never spend that much money on a rug for my own home. Try not to project your personal, like, finances or opinions on them, because that can withhold them in these beautiful things that they want or that they could have or that they've worked hard to provide for their home.
- [24:40]
Moderator
Is the most challenging conversation about money at the beginning or does it recur throughout for each of you?
- [24:45]
Jean Stouffer
I think it's at the very end.
- [24:50]
Heather Fujikawa
Construction fatigue.
- [24:51]
Jean Stouffer
Yeah. And just like this is costing, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can't keep going like this.
- [24:57]
Grace Start
I think at the same point, respecting the budget of your client and saying, okay, if you're doing ceramic wall tile, you can get that for under $10 a square foot with the exact same look as you can spend $30 a square foot. So I can give you these two options and tell you this is a more ve. I learned that from our designers. Value engineered option or a more custom option. But even though money shouldn't be like, yeah, you should be direct and talk about it, you can respect your client's budget by saying, this is where you can save.
- [25:32]
Jean Stouffer
I think that goes over really well to show them what might have been the first choice, but a second choice, that's so good, that's so much less. I feel like that automatically builds rapport and trust and is really worth the time.
- [25:49]
Moderator
Does that ease the decision making process when there isn't a ve option also?
- [25:53]
Jean Stouffer
Yeah.
- [25:54]
Grace Start
And also, so we provide all the cabinetry for our projects also. And that is. That is the price. You know, there's no different. I Mean, there's different levels of cabinetry, but when people are like, okay, that's over budget. We're like, okay, here are the seven things you could cut out. And that actually usually works well. Cause they're like, oh, okay. No way.
- [26:17]
Moderator
I'm not cutting that out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [26:20]
Grace Start
I want the grills on the front of the cabinets.
- [26:23]
Moderator
She's like, here are the things. We could kind of step away to save that money. Yeah.
- [26:27]
Jean Stouffer
So there is a way. Yeah. And now it's your choice. Yeah.
- [26:30]
Moderator
But it's having less things or having less details. Yeah.
- [26:33]
Jean Stouffer
Yeah.
- [26:38]
Caitlin Peterson
Hey, designers, I want to tell you a little bit more about my tour of the Four Hands Art Studio, which included a walkthrough of the state of the art production facility where these pieces come to life. I was especially awestruck by the way that Four Hands has deployed the latest in 3D print printing technology, which is able to reproduce each and every nuance of an artist's original piece. This is work that is so exact that the artists who come in to inspect the prototypes often can't tell which one is the original. In addition to all of the incredible technology, the facility was also bustling with inspiring people. Technicians at every step of the process, from curators to print makers to framers to packaging experts, all working together to create pieces that are ready to ship within three weeks. There are thousands of artworks in the Four Hands Art Studio collection, all waiting to be discovered. You can find the perfect piece for your next project@4hands.com Art Studio.
- [27:40]
Moderator
We've got one more question asker for all of you. This is from a designer who's about to start taking on a lot more out of state work. I'm so excited to hear what all of you think about this, because I know you're all working both locally and afar. She wants to know what she should be doing now to set herself up for success. This is a proactive question. Ask her. We're going to hear from her now.
- [28:02]
Question Asker 2
I'm sort of in the place where I'm trying to scale my business from one location to the other. And so technically, my business is in Arizona. That's where it started. And in California, although I've been getting requests for Florida and New York for clients. And so I'm just looking for the best way to transition smoothly, either managing projects remotely or being able to coordinate with other local vendors, handling installations, and just making sure my vision really comes to life in another city successfully.
- [28:33]
Moderator
Grace, you grimaced so hard when she mentioned those cities, so I want to.
- [28:38]
Jean Stouffer
Start with you, Grace gets a rash.
- [28:42]
Moderator
What is this motion prompt for you?
- [28:44]
Grace Start
So with our new COO coming on, I had to do a big report on what all is happening in Jean Stouffer design. And I went through all these projects and every beautiful project that we finished that's out of state. We've never styled and never photographed. They're beautiful. They took a lot of work. We traveled there many times, but we have never taken finished photographs of them. So I'm like. And it takes a simple site visit to something local takes multiple days because you have to fly there, stay at a hotel, organize everybody on site, do a big walkthrough that usually takes multiple hours because you could. It's local. You could stop there for 15 minutes and look at a few things. So I think it is possible, I think people do it successfully and I would proceed with caution is my recommendation.
- [29:45]
Jean Stouffer
I mean, I can say that those projects have been successes. They're beautiful. Our clients are happy. And the way we've been able to achieve that is we have like weekly zoom calls with the client. And often the contractor will be involved in that. And we have the project manager on the job, responds to emails very quickly, responds through, you know, any kind of communication very quickly. So nothing gets out from under us.
- [30:15]
Grace Start
Everything's in spreadsheets, Everything's very well documented. And when it's out of state, you draw everything. So where that hook is going, where the teepee holder's going, every tile layout, every grout color, everything's in a spreadsheet.
- [30:28]
Jean Stouffer
Yeah. Where you could put a piece of blue tape. You know, if you're.
- [30:31]
Grace Start
Yeah. You have to have a good contractor partner because if the contractor doesn't want to look at your documentation, run away. But it is just more difficult. You have to find a new receiving warehouse. You have to have a client that's willing to jump on zoom, who's willing to go on site for you too.
- [30:55]
Jean Stouffer
And look at. That's been the key to a lot of these successful projects is that the homeowner is also there and calling a lot, watching things.
- [31:09]
Moderator
So they're almost like the on site advocate.
- [31:12]
Grace Start
Right.
- [31:12]
Moderator
And you're giving them the information they need to advocate for themselves.
- [31:15]
Jean Stouffer
And in fact, there was. We had a situation where the client was in Texas and the project was out of state for us or out of area. And we suggested that. That she hire someone to go to that job site on a regular basis and walk around and just like watch. Like, is it clean? Is it, you know, all this kind of so did that.
- [31:42]
Moderator
Did she do it? Did that work?
- [31:43]
Jean Stouffer
She didn't. Okay.
- [31:50]
Grace Start
I think that it's entirely possible. I don't want to sound like so negative about it, but I think that there's just a lot to think about.
- [31:55]
Moderator
What is the work? You know, this is someone who has maybe tiptoed, like state adjacent. Right. Arizona to California. As you think about going across the country, changing time zones, all of those things, what is the work that you do need to have prepared in advance to set yourself up for some success?
- [32:12]
Heather Fujikawa
Yeah, I think a lot, like Gene was saying, and Grace with like zoom calls, everything has to be very technical. And so that's also part of your sale at the beginning of taking on a project. Like, okay, so instead of being in person a lot, we are very technical. And this will be great because you'll be able to join meetings instead of in person right in your own office or kitchen. So you can sell it like that, which is convenient for them. But then also being real too, where it's like you will have more asks, things like that. We can't go to the Ferguson showroom to choose appliances with. You won't be there for those things. We have our rep take care of you there. So. Yeah, but I think also looking at where you are, where you want to grow, where you want to bloom, and what you can take on, because what's your phase of life as a designer in that moment? Taking on clients across the nation. Can you leave your home? Do you have small children? Do you have pets that you don't want to leave? What does that look like? Because we were bouncing across the country when I had four kids, ages 5 and under. And then my husband was still working full time in his other job, and I was going to Salt Lake and New York and all these places. It was a very difficult time. We made it work.
- [33:29]
Grace Start
But we.
- [33:30]
Heather Fujikawa
We ended up hiring someone in Salt Lake. Cause we had so many jobs at the time there. And that's how I was able to do that with everything going on at home.
- [33:37]
Moderator
You like a person.
- [33:38]
Heather Fujikawa
We had. We hired a team member there, and then they eventually moved to Texas.
- [33:41]
Jean Stouffer
Texas.
- [33:42]
Heather Fujikawa
They've been incredible. But I think, you know, using partners, using vendors. I also. Someone like Ferguson Showroom or someone like Four Hands, where they will ship things across. They're very good at working with you and shipping things to your clients. Another thing to look out for is you can also call on other local designers and say, who is your warehousing team member? I've done that for out of state clients, message them on Instagram. Would you be open to helping me out? And they give you some great resources. And we have hired some local designers to go do a window treatment measure or things like that and work as a contractor for us for things we really can't get on site. It doesn't make sense to fly out for. For our client in that expense. So getting scrappy, using your community, you know, connection over competition.
- [34:30]
Jean Stouffer
Yeah. I also think that you, like very early on, even before maybe anything starts, to make sure that the contractor is your friend, because that is the key relationship. If you guys are a team and you're working together, boy, it just goes so much more smoothly. Yeah.
- [34:50]
Grace Start
And you can. If there's an issue on site, you can meet together about it before the client even has to worry about it and come up with a great solution.
- [34:59]
Heather Fujikawa
Most of the time, we can't sign off on the contractor before the client. We're trying to win that job. I want to win the job.
- [35:03]
Jean Stouffer
Right.
- [35:03]
Heather Fujikawa
So, like, we don't really make it harder.
- [35:05]
Question Asker 1
So.
- [35:06]
Heather Fujikawa
But when you do engage with that contractor saying very humble things like, I'm here to support you, I'm here to serve you. How can I make your job easier? What's your best way of communicating? Text, email, or phone call? And then along the way, am I doing anything that's making your job harder? Like seeing these things that most people don't want to say and that all of a sudden they're like, they're here to help and serve.
- [35:29]
Jean Stouffer
I also have a pro tip. The first time you ever go physically and meet the contractor, dress like you're going to a job site, not an event. Just don't be like, oh, my gosh, the designer's coming.
- [35:44]
Moderator
You know how often. One thing I get asked a lot about taking remote work is how often you should be local. How often should you be flying out to check on that job site? How do you talk about travel costs with clients and how do you bill for all of that travel time?
- [36:03]
Jean Stouffer
Well, we have a flat fee contract, and if we're traveling, we charge what it costs us.
- [36:11]
Moderator
When do you want to go? Or how often do you want to be on site? At some of those remote jobs, it.
- [36:16]
Heather Fujikawa
Really is client depending on their budget and how much they want to be involved and all those things too. But yeah, I would say if you, like three to five times, you know, something like that. Of course, it can be more at the end if you're trying to style and install and all of those things, but we we tell our team we don't travel a lot. We don't want to be traveling a lot. We want to do as much virtual as possible as a team for culture. So we do err on the lower end of travel for our virtual clients. Just culture wise. We just start with a little more homebody.
- [36:49]
Jean Stouffer
Yeah.
- [36:50]
Grace Start
Do you call them virtual clients, then? If they're out of state?
- [36:53]
Heather Fujikawa
Yeah.
- [36:53]
Grace Start
Okay.
- [36:54]
Heather Fujikawa
Yeah.
- [36:54]
Jean Stouffer
Oh, that helps set the expectations. Yes, it does.
- [36:57]
Heather Fujikawa
Yeah.
- [36:57]
Moderator
I was going to ask about that. When you are sort of in the conversation phase, getting to know the client, figuring out whether or not the job is a fit, is there some sort of level setting that you have to do about how their experience will be different? Working with you from afar versus working with someone locally?
- [37:14]
Jean Stouffer
I mean, I think a lot of people would just assume that. Yeah. But we say in our contract that we're available via FaceTime email, Zoom, and if necessary on site, we do about the same.
- [37:29]
Heather Fujikawa
And we also, if it is a large furnishing client, we do encourage them to, like, fly out to our showroom, our store on site to do the touch, see, feel, see our fabrics, see our sofa, see everything, so that we can make some quick decisions versus something live. As much as we go out to their home, we also want them to come to us maybe one time if we're doing something. A full home of furnishings. It just makes everything much quicker. So we have had people do that, and that works really well.
- [37:53]
Jean Stouffer
Yeah, that's really good. That really works too. For finishes, you're showing tile and paint colors and stuff to be able to lay it all down right by our resource library so that we can switch out if needed versus taking it to them and like, oh, you need a replacement for that. Okay, we'll ship that to you.
- [38:13]
Heather Fujikawa
That's perfect.
- [38:14]
Moderator
Do we have anyone in the audience with a question for Heather Jean and Grace? Yes, right up here. Oh, hang on. We're going to get you a microphone. We're going to make it more intense.
- [38:24]
Heather Fujikawa
Hi. I was wondering when you guys kind of started to know you wanted to.
- [38:30]
Moderator
Work together and like, kind of when you, Grace, started getting interested and just.
- [38:35]
Heather Fujikawa
Kind of when you all figured that out and how to. How to do that.
- [38:38]
Jean Stouffer
You know, I. Maybe some of you know this, but I had been for many, many years a kitchen and bath designer and had not included interior design in my projects. And when Grace was a young woman, new mom, school teacher. Why don't you pick it up from there?
- [38:58]
Grace Start
So I was pregnant with my second child and teaching and with teaching, if you miss school. It's actually more work because you have to make sub plans. And so it was just becoming something where I was like, I really want something more flexible. So I called up my mom, and she had just moved to Grand Rapids from Chicago, and I asked if she would hire me, who had no experience in design, no business getting a job, and she was going to be slowly retiring if she would hire me. And she was like, sure, I would love that.
- [39:39]
Jean Stouffer
And I actually loved the whole concept. And I'd always had people asking me to do the interior design work, and I would say no. And Grace suggested that if I were to ever get one of those other requests again, I entertain it and call her about it before I said no. And I got one within two weeks. And so we took it on. And then two weeks later, we got another call. So we simultaneously together did two houses, full interior design. You know, I've been in a lot of houses for a lot of years doing all the cabinetry and tile and things like that, so had that experience. But bringing in Grace, with all the interest in soft furnishings and paint colors and things was new and exciting. And we learned as we went and learned that we loved working together and that we really fit together quite well. And she kind of helped bring my design a little bit more modernity. And then I would bring to her the, like, the know how of how to make it happen and traditional aspects of design, proportion and scale and things. And it really just, I mean, elevated both of what we were doing together. And it has been really wonderful working with her. Extremely enjoyable.
- [41:12]
Unknown Host
You mentioned earlier, there are a lot of things that are out of your control, timing wise, delivery tariffs, et cetera. I've recently had some frustrating moments, which I'm sure a lot of people in here have, as well as the designer having to break the news to your client that something is either delayed, which is going to keep them out of their house for a month longer or even more than that, or they're going to have things we're going to have to pivot, you know, right away and have to make adjustments. Now it's going to cost more, you know, all these things. So, long story short, I've recently developed a document that I sit down on the kickoff of the project and say, okay, these are all the things that could go wrong. And it's a horrible way of starting things. It's like, these are the things out of my control. And I want you to know that, you know, this could be happening in your project. Fingers crossed. It does not but there are a lot of things that I am not in control of. I decided to implement this because the headaches were becoming very apparent regularly. And, you know, losing sleep over this isn't worth it. So is there something that you guys have developed differently that maybe feels a little bit more positive and happy.
- [42:36]
Question Asker 1
That.
- [42:36]
Unknown Host
Maybe I could do instead that isn't so lawyer y. And, you know.
- [42:42]
Grace Start
I think that document, that's a great idea. I think before anything happens, you're not saying it will happen, but you're saying that it could happen. And inevitably those things will happen on every project, one or many. And I think, at least in our office, we try to think of a solution before we even tell the client. So these are our recommendations. You could do this or this or this. We're so sorry that this happened. But also, there's no such thing as a design emergency. That's my other, like, it's going to be okay.
- [43:16]
Jean Stouffer
There's a fine line between being Debbie Downer, like, everything bad's going to happen, it's not my fault, and helping them understand conditions. And I really think if you go over that with them in person, then they hear your tone and they hear your desire to make things right and how you'll pivot using your expertise. And I feel like handing someone like that or emailing a document like that could be a whoa, I don't know. She said you're going to take responsibility when these things go wrong. But as you said, going through it with them in person seems to be a wow, that's a great approach. I would say.
- [43:59]
Moderator
I've heard designers frame it differently. I'm going to make your document twice as long for a second. And if you present it as a how we Work document and then all of these things, like, at this phase, this might happen. But here's all the things that we do in our process, like, that maybe allows your process to shine more than the problem. And I was going to ask if any of you guys have like a How we Work document that you send in advance. I wonder if that packet sort of answers some of those fears, but with a very, like, positive and proactive, process driven, like, approach.
- [44:33]
Heather Fujikawa
Yeah, I was gonna say along those lines. I think that's great because if you were able to have that information to them, but also couple it with. And this is asking them questions, what's your best way of communication? Let's get on to this next point. So it's like a series, and maybe you already do that, but it's a series of information and it's part of that package and you're addressing it. But also there's other stuff that's not. They're not gonna go home just thinking, worst case scenario.
- [44:53]
Moderator
Oh, my gosh.
- [44:53]
Heather Fujikawa
We sat down and only talked about all the questions. Yeah. Which I'm sure you didn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, a welcome kit that's branded and beautiful fonts and imagery like goes.
- [45:03]
Jean Stouffer
A long way, you know. Yeah, we do that too. Welcome. A welcome package.
- [45:07]
Grace Start
A welcome package because they're so excited when they sign on and they want to get started right away, but it gives them questions to answer about every single room in their house. So they have like this big document.
- [45:19]
Jean Stouffer
Homework.
- [45:20]
Grace Start
They have a lot of homework where they feel like they're going to take care of me. They're asking all these detailed questions. We have it saved on our drive so that we can reference it when we're like, what did they say about the bedroom? This is what they want. Nightstands with storage and they want to be able to plug something in. And they don't like lamps, they want sconces. You know, it's just every single little details in there. So I highly recommend that. I know that's a ticket, but.
- [45:47]
Jean Stouffer
Yeah, but as part of the welcome packet is the questionnaire.
- [45:50]
Moderator
Do all of you walk through the contract with the clients or are they on their own to read that, sign it, return it and then you start.
- [45:58]
Heather Fujikawa
Ours is just here's our docusign and let us know what questions you have. And then if they have questions, then we'll get on a phone call and address those. Yeah.
- [46:05]
Jean Stouffer
A lot of our discussion about the contract is at our are we a good fit Conversation. We talk about how we work and learn about. And so by the time they've seen the contract, they've already heard a lot of those things.
- [46:20]
Moderator
Well, this has been incredible. If you have more questions, come find us. We'll be here afterwards. There is. Oh, I have one more question. I'm so sorry. I was ready to send us all back, but everyone who listens to the show knows how it ends. If each of you could send us off with the best piece of advice you've ever received.
- [46:38]
Heather Fujikawa
So I would say in life and in work and in all things, just find joy in the journey. We're all about joyful living in our home because there's so much joy in chaos and trial and beauty and happy moments. And if you can just find joy in those day to day moments, I think you'll have a long term mindset whether that's with your career or your job or your business or with anything else that you're aspiring in your life.
- [47:05]
Jean Stouffer
So I think it's really hard to pick one thing that's but one thing that has really been helpful for me as I've grown my business is to never pursue something unless you could absorb its total loss and still be okay. And you know what? It makes pursuing things a lot less stressful. There's already the work piece of it. That's really hard. But if it doesn't succeed and you've lost more than you can afford to lose, that's really hard and takes a while to recover from. So never pursue something that if it's a total loss, you wouldn't be okay.
- [47:48]
Grace Start
Mine is the golden rule. So treat others how you want to be treated. I think that that would make our world a better place if everybody followed the golden rule. But I think that goes into work too. How how would you want to be treated if you were a client? How would you want to be treated if you were a co worker?
- [48:08]
Moderator
Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you all for being here. And now it's time for drinks and snacks and furniture.
- [48:19]
Caitlin Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for being here and for everyone listening with a question of your own. I'd love for you to ask us anything. Don't worry, we'll keep it anonymous. Please start the conversation by sending me an email at treytail@businessofhome.com if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. And if you're looking for even more great business advice, head on over to businessofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Katelyn Peterson, and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you here next week.