← Trade Tales
Trade Tales
How Dan Mazzarini built a firm that benefits from a diverse project mix
00:53:36
Dan Mazzarini on how he used his firm’s recent rebranding as a team-building opportunity, the one question he uses to kick off every project and how he’s talking to clients about the economics of design in today’s climate.
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- [00:02]
A
Leveling up for me might not mean sizing up, but I think it is acting with clarity around what we say yes to. Understanding that we only have so many hours in the day and how we control the narrative and what we kind of let in is a big part of that.
- [00:21]
B
Hi, I'm Kaitlyn Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales, where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer who kicked off his career in retail design before stepping into residential and hospitality work. Today, clients hire his firm for all three, leading to a diverse project mix that keeps his team freshly inspired. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. Hey designers, here's a quick tip before we dive in. If you're juggling client projects that include replacing windows and doors, you need to know about renewal by Andersen's Interior Designer Loyalty program. It's a total game changer because they can take care of all of the windows and doors for you so that you don't have to worry about it. You'll get trade discounts, exclusive rewards, and a team that truly knows what they're doing. Enjoy having a trusted expert who makes your projects run so much more smoothly. Apply today at renewalbyandersoninteriordesigner.com that's renewalbyandersen a N-E-R s e n interiordesigner.com terms and conditions apply. This podcast is brought to you by lightovation at Dallas Market Center. Looking to elevate your lighting selections for clients, Lightovation offers 1 million square feet of lighting encompassing all categories for homes and hospitality environments, including brands you won't see anywhere else. Find out why lighting lives in Dallas January 10th through 13th, including Design Plus Build Day for trade professionals on January 13th. Visit DallasMarketCenter.com Lightovation to learn more. That's DallasMarketCenter.com Lightovation.
- [02:47]
A
Growing up, my mom and I used to do like a bunch of house projects, right? So we would refinish floors, we would strip furniture, we would like make drapery and kind of all these things. And so it sounds so silly, but I think I've always just loved that. I don't know if it was the creative expression or kind of the instant gratification of doing it. And I liked the sort of like, using my hands to do things. So the spark definitely started as a kid.
- [03:12]
B
That's Dan Mazzarini. He went on to earn his degree in interior design and set off for New York, where he landed a job in retail design working for Robin Kramer.
- [03:24]
A
She was only retail, but she was like the queen of retail. She knew everybody. Almost a year in, you know, I was on drips and drabs projects. Just kind of like the young kid doing Stu. Anyway, one day, Robin walked past my desk and she said, hey, we have a new client. We're gonna ask you to lead the design. He has a store in New York, and he has a store in Tokyo, but he has investors, so we're gonna help grow his business. His name is Michael Kors. So Michael Kors was like the big account I worked on for two and a half years there. And it was this wild ride. Like the real, like, building the plane while we're flying it sort of thing was happening, but it was wild. So I was at Robin's office for about three years. I just started to interview just to see if my work was translatable to other things. Interesting meetings with hotel people. And then I got a call, actually from somebody at Ralph Lauren. So I had to tell Robin that I had these job offers. And she said, here's the thing, kiddo. If you're going to go anywhere, you have to go there because it is a university, and you will learn everything else. And she said, but I will tell you, you are meant to do your own thing. And at some point, if you're still there and it's been too long, I will come and I will tell you, you need to go.
- [04:33]
B
It never came to that. Instead, after Hon Craft at Ralph Lauren, Dan began taking on a few side projects, and along the way, started dreaming of starting his own firm.
- [04:45]
A
I was working on a side hustle job, hotel design at the time in Miami. My client for the hotel, he sat me down at lunch one day and said, when are you going to start your firm? And I said, I don't know. Like, it feels really scary. He said, the worst thing that happens is that you don't have any clients and you don't make any money. And I was like, yeah, Brian, that would be really bad. He looked at me and goes, do you know what would happen? You would get another job. And I let it sink in, and I was like, oh, I guess I could just try this. And that was kind of the kick in the pants that I needed to be like, all right, no one's going to do this for you. And no time to start a business is ever perfect. At the time, I was working with this man, Brian Humphrey, who's the BH of bhdm, and Brian and I kind of set out on our own to do work. And it's interesting, as soon as I gave notice and they started a firm, people came calling. They were like, we were kind of just waiting for you to do this.
- [05:37]
B
Dan and Brian launched BHDM Design in 2012. This week, the firm officially changed its name to Mazarini and Company. I wanted to talk to Dan about how the recent rebranding doubled as a team building opportunity. The one question he uses to kick off every single project, and how he's talking to clients about the economics of design in today's climate. You had a business partner at the beginning. Was it just the two of you, or what was the shape of the business in the early days?
- [06:10]
A
Well, it was the two of us and Brian's two birds, which were a lot of personality.
- [06:16]
B
Like, truly birds.
- [06:17]
A
Really truly. Like two cockatoos.
- [06:20]
B
Oh, okay. They're chatty.
- [06:21]
A
They're chatty. And they thought my hair was a nest. And so, like, look up a picture, guys. We'd be like, yeah, kind of a nest. But it was Brian and I in his apartment, and that was it. And we just kind of started. We both illustrate. We both love sort of like all the images and materials. And so at that moment in time for the business, we would draw something. We would switch paper. We would, like, draw on top of each other's ideas. It was still to this day, I love my business. I love my business now. I'm so grateful for all of it. But when I look back, like, it was the most fun time, not because it was uncertain, but because it could be anything. And so it was Brian and I for about six months, and then we got a space because I was like, you gotta get away from these birds. And right away, though it was always chicken or the egg. We were busy. Do we hire? If you hire, then you need the work. And I think this is probably every creative that you talk to. It's like, when do we sort of do the spend to find the talent? Is it when it's too late and you're trying to backfill, or is it an advance and you're just trying to get the work done? So. But really quickly, we brought in an intern, and then someone from Ralph Lauren called me and she said, I Want to do what you're doing? Can I come work for you? And I was like, okay. So that was like our first hire, Sabrina was great. And then we brought on people part time pretty quickly. So a woman that I knew from Miami University who was working in residential, she came on two days a week, then three days a week, then five days a week. And now she has her own team. But she was with us for like 11 years. So the team grew organically and the goal was never to grow, to be big. It was just in service of these great projects and like creative ideas. So from a room with two birds to like our first office was probably like, you know, an eight month cycle really quickly.
- [08:05]
B
How did the work start to evolve and how did what you wanted the firm to become start to take shape?
- [08:12]
A
At the beginning, I wasn't good at saying no to things. And so we did everything. We did single rooms for in residences, we did coffee shops. But we, we approached it all, no matter the scale, no matter the budget, no matter where it was or who the. We approached it all with sort of this same zest. We wanted everything on the page to be the best that it could be, which sometimes people like you overshot it or we don't have the budget or whatever. But I say this because the work quickly begot more work. And so those smaller projects led to more like, tantalizing things. A friend of mine who's in, she's a restaurant consultant, saw work we were doing and she's like, what's happening here? This is great stuff. Like, it's great coffee shop, it's a great counter. Like, these are beautiful. She called us for a pitch for the MTA to do a food hall at Grand Central. And we did it in a week. We charretted it, we presented it, and that's what got built. This like Klaus Meyer Food Hall. And so the early work was kind of just throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall and seeing what would stick from like a client perspective. But I loved it all because I think everybody's creative brain loves diversity, right? And very early I could see that what we were doing in our residential work, single family residential work, would influence a hotel design. And the fabrics and the materials that we were discovering for hospitality, we could resell to our residential clients because they're more dur. Terrible. And I saw the cross pollination of our work and it made me grateful for a background in retail that sort of spun into residential and hospitality because all of this to this day influences each other. And I think Our work and our team, Our team is happier but our work is better because of it.
- [10:05]
B
You still have that pretty broad mix in your work, is that.
- [10:08]
A
Yeah, yeah. So I'm gratefully like you're calling on a day when like we got a lot of stuff and the sort of on the table right now. So I was just meeting about like two floors in the building for Google where it's like this is one part of my brain. And then we're going to talk to multifamily developer about all of their amenities and the units and, and so I love the ping pong. I love this like you know, just diversity of my day and I talk about it with people in interviews because like, what is the day like? And I don't want to be trying to be like every day is different, but I'm like every day is different because that's how I like it. And I think I found that the team thrives in that. At least the people who, you know, are successful at our company thrive in that diversity. And I always say I want people who want to learn and then want to apply that knowledge. And so yeah, we've got a real diverse like single family, multifamily residential, all those amenities. We do hotels and restaurants. We're doing a golf concept right now. So we like to work with startups and sort of new ideas. Maybe I'm still a people pleaser and have a hard time saying no, but I'm definitely saying yes to the right things too. I think it has been an issue with me personally when people are asked like, what's your style? And I'm like, I like them all. You know, it's hard, it's hard to like put, put your.
- [11:24]
B
I talk to so many designers though who are struggling to, who don't want to shed pieces of what they're passionate about, but are struggling to find a way to message what their business.
- [11:35]
A
Yeah, and I think I used to struggle. Well, I used to push back on this notion of personal style. Right. Like I wanted to be the chameleon and that was my life in retail. Like if you can design for Ralph and Calvin and like all these brands that are very different from each other, great, right. It was about what is the story you want to tell the world and then how does that come through in the built environment? That notion to me is universal. I had a hard time defining what my personal style was when I was up against that. Now we did a whole exercise as a company and started a second company called Archive, which I was like oh, this is it. So if you want to see it, go for archivebydm.com but. But I think the gut reaction that there's diversity and that our look is diverse is still really powerful to me because I think it's allows our team and myself to, like, we can explore a lot, right? We can be creative in the process. We can bring new ideas to different clients because we have that diversity. And while I think some people might not call because they're like, you've done this and you've done this and like, you're all over, just as many call, because we do do that. And I think a lot of what I talk about in initial meetings with, I'll say, like, commercial clients is we are thinkers as much as designers. We are going to be on the journey of what is the user experience with you. We have expertise and operations, and so we want to think about not just what it looks like, but how does your business work. And all this comes about because the more we do, the more I'm like, there is no one size fits all for any design project. And so I was talking with Amy on our team a couple of weeks ago, and she's like, we're in. We're in like a phase right now where she's like, it's all a slog. Everything needs. Like, we're in heavy design mode on a bunch of stuff. And I looked up though, and I was like, that's because all of this is bespoke. That's because we want every person to have something unique and they paid for it, but they also deserve it, and so does the end user. And so the notion of bringing an amount of specificity and expertise is one way you can go. I also think bringing diverse experience and explaining to people how that diverse experience can benefit their project, look, feel, operation, everything is the way that I've sort of run the company.
- [14:01]
B
But also, you know, you said specifically that that's sort of the language you use for a commercial client. What's the language you use for a residential client to kind of express those same ideas?
- [14:12]
A
I do ask the same question at the beginning. What's the story you want to tell the world? Residential is the ultimate in, like, personal expression. And I'm sure every guest that you've had will be like, it is a challenging job. You'll never have a more grateful, happy client, and you'll never have clients who ask for more or want to be more specific. And it makes total sense, right? Like, it's their money, it's where they Put their clothes or where their kids birthdays are or, or. Or this is the real backdrop to people's lives. But I always ask, what's the story you want to tell the world? Because hiring a designer is a luxury. And I think there's an amount of aspiration for everybody who's hiring a designer. So if you can get from someone, like sometimes the references. I loved my Aunt Becky's, you know, beach house. And I. Well, tell me what that looked like. I'm good at getting it out of people. But there's a similarity between our commercial work and our residential work, at least how it starts. Because I always want to ask that question.
- [15:15]
B
Tell me about being a people pleaser. How does that show up in your work today? And also what structures have you put around you to kind of protect yourself a little bit?
- [15:25]
A
I would say Dan Mazarini is not a diva. And it really shows in being a people pleaser. Like, I want happy clients, I want people, and I want people to be heard. That said, I would say after almost 25 years of doing this profession, I have a point of view. I definitely, you know, want to make sure that when our name is on something, that our client loves it. But like, we are proud of the work too. And so what was once sort of like, I'll get it. What flavor kind of response to people has sort of shifted to be like, would you consider this other flavor? And I think, you know, it can only come with age for me at least, and experience and. And really like learning to trust myself and what I'm doing sort of like being not the only, but a great solution for people. And that's the thing. Right. I feel like no design is the only thing that it could be. There's a hundred possibilities, endless possibilities for so my people pleaser opportunity. Can I say it that way? Yeah.
- [16:23]
B
Yeah.
- [16:24]
A
I think that there is more than one way to kind of like address something. And so it. It's helpful because now that we have a big team, you know, I think I'm open to more ideas. But it has also benefited us in a way where I want the client to be happy. And so we will. We will index on what makes our client happy, for sure. So to how I've sort of surrounded myself or sort of, you know, either protected or informed that I have a great team. Like, we're about 16 people now. And I trust them. And I think I trust them sometimes. To have clearer perspective on a client read, however, it would be sometimes more than I will because my people pleaser Gets in the way. I'm going to say yes to everyone and be like, I want to do this room. And they're like, Dan, they're crazy, Dan. They don't have any money. Like, whatever it is. Right. Things that might get in the way. And so my team often will do the interviews with me and will sort of feed in to say, like, this is great. This is not as great.
- [17:21]
B
Talk to me a little bit about hiring and also about finding the right number of people on your team.
- [17:28]
A
There's no right number, but I think the universe gives you a real strong direction when you don't have enough. So I think it's when the team is getting to a point that they're like, we're here all the time. Which I love a work life balance. And so I'm like, we don't want that. But I also feel like if I don't know what's happening with the projects, that means that people and myself are too busy to click in and connect with each other. And I'm like, that's just a bandwidth thing.
- [17:58]
B
No one's ever said that to me before. Not talking to each other anymore is such a profound way to measure that.
- [18:06]
A
Yeah.
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B
It's not someone raising their hand, saying, I'm too busy. It's that they're slogging away and they can't surface to tell you about it.
- [18:14]
A
Well, because you know this about me. Like, I love this interaction, like as many sort of AI robot kind of whatevers are happening in our world right now. I'm in a business that builds things for people. So because of that too, I love the interaction with the team. I love to educate and nurture and teach and learn from. And so I know we're too busy when I don't have time to do that. Yeah. And so that's part of what that looks like. But hiring is. I mean, it's so trite, but you've got to hire slow and like fire fast. I think gratefully we don't do a lot of the latter, but hiring is as much about talent as it is cultural fit. For me, bringing the wrong energy to a team is more detrimental than supportive, even if the person can do the work. And so we do a lot of things. Like, you're not going to have just one interview with our team. You're going to meet with me, you're going to meet with Amy. You're going to meet with like probably four or five or six people. But I do think that it's important because both sides of the table are interviewing each other. Right. I got to know you have the chops, but you need to see what our brand of crazy is too and be able to sign on board for that. And so it's, you know, the emotional fit when we're hiring is important. I think the size of the team. I never want to be a big company just to be big, but we gratefully have enough leadership in place now that as we continue to grow because we've got some great big projects coming in, it's all to support. I said we're going to sound like Pottery Barn. Like the level of excellence that we've sort of like built as a company. Yeah. So there's no like answer. It's not like we want to be 15 or 20 or 25. I do like the size that we are from sort of like a manageable and personal point of view that I have with everybody.
- [20:02]
B
Is there a size where your experience as the boss noticeably shifts?
- [20:08]
A
After 12, it changed. We're about 16 right now. And when we were eight people and under, it was just the eight of us in a room just rocking out every day, right? Yeah, we were just cranking and shouting across the room and like going to meetings together and getting lunch and you knew who was going on a date and who was getting married and blah, blah. Like it just was. It's more familial. Like that's the size of people that when you get past that and 12 was sort of a limit, like that's when people start to join and drop off of a team. And at 15, you know, we require more hierarchy because I don't have enough, I don't have as much bandwidth to do all the things I said that I love earlier. I don't have as much time to teach or sit with or nurture all of these projects. But gratefully, you know, I've nurtured other people who are still with a company who then can sort of pass that knowledge on. So, you know, you kind of hit these strata in business where in some ways it's a little bit less and less about the hands on creative every day and more about managing people and processes. And it sounds really unsexy, but I need to make sure that our clients are serviced. And I think one of my superpowers is seeing down the road what it's going to take to get there and then making sure that the infrastructure and people and talent are in place so that I'm the art director of all of this. I get my team revved up. They Bring me the options. So the size is important, but I think just as important is to make sure that those, like microcosms of teams, are also supported in that way.
- [21:46]
B
Designers, take note. This January, Dallas Market center hosts Design plus Build Day at Light Ovation, which will feature a keynote from Interior Design Magazine Editor in Chief Cindy Allen and a full day of dynamic programming just for trade professionals. Lightovation is the largest lighting show in North America. It opens January 10th and ends with Design Plus Build Day on January 13th. You can register today at DallasMarketCenter.com Lightovation. That's DallasMarketCenter.com Lightovation. You said you had this, you know, amazing first boss. What are some of those lessons in leadership that have really shaped the way you want to show up in your own firm?
- [22:35]
A
One of the main things that Robin Kramer taught me, or at least made me feel, was if you show that you're interested in something and you show that you are capable of doing it and learning, I'm going to let you do that. I encourage you to do that. The more you want to take on, as long as you show me you can do it, I'm going to trust you with more and more. And so in interviews, I tell people I'm looking for a self starter. I am looking for someone who wants ownership of their work and of the design and of the. Because I've worked really hard to get where I am, and I'm grateful for all the amazing clients that we have. All I want is somebody to be just as excited about that. Right. And I think that's something that Robin taught me was you can have as much autonomy as you want as long as you show me you can do it. And so I bring that to the team. I want really good things for them. There was also a day where I think it was like my very first design meeting. Like, I was invited to meet the client, which I think is a different thing. Like, I was invited to meet the client young. And I bring my team to all these meetings because I want our clients to know it's not just Dan, right? But in this meeting, I was up all night. I was, like, all excited for this presentation. And in the meeting, we were presenting materials and I went to speak and Robin kind of shot me this look like, don't speak now. And I kind of shriveled. I was like, ooh, I hope I don't get fired. Ooh, right. But after the meeting, this is what was brilliant. After the meeting, she called me into her office with the other two Designers who were in the meeting. And she was like, that was a great meeting. You guys worked so hard. Let's talk about roles a little bit. And she just queued it up that it was a conversation that, like, my job is to sell, and we're in a client meeting, I'm going to sell it. And you all are the experts with design, but if I need you to sort of like, cue me up, I'll be like, laura, what's that? Or George, what's that? She didn't point at me because I'm sitting there ready to get my hand slapped. And she just made it about the group dynamic. And I was like, to this day, I'm like, you know, I know design people. We are opinionated and we are fragile, right? And so my excitement for this pitch could have been squashed really quickly. And to this day, I'm like, how can you be the best, most communicative and kind messenger of things with. With your team? And so a lot of this is the emotional quotient of things that I learned from Robin.
- [25:01]
B
What are the qualities when you're hiring? You know, you said you're looking for a self starter, but what are the questions you ask? What are the characteristics that make someone a good fit for your team?
- [25:11]
A
Interviews are an interesting thing. You can sometimes be looking for a specific technical skill. I certainly want a beautiful taste level. I think more and more with computer rendering. I'm old school, you know, this Caitlin. Like, I like to draw and sketch, and so I always value that in people's portfolios. But I really always try to, from the creative standpoint, make people talk about their process. If you're coming to an interview with, with me, bring process work. I think it shows the best how you think about the project and the process, and it's all beautiful at the end of the day. Show me your cover. Show me your photos. I want to see how you sketched that sofa to get it to the workroom. I want to see what, you know, photos of the material, presentation look like, because that is 80% of our business. And I ask people, what's your favorite part of a project? Undoubtedly, everyone says concepts. I'm like, what else? It's 10% creative at the beginning, it's 10% creative at the end with an install and the styling and everything. It's 80% creative problem solving in the middle of our work. And so I'm like, you better like that part of it. And so I think in interviews, I always try to click into that, show me what part of the drawing you did. Show me your process, show me your DV set, Show me how you write specs. It sounds so silly, but we are a team of doers, and so no one on the team has, myself included, has the luxury of being, like, sitting back and just pointing at pretty things. I want to see the process because that's what I'm hiring for.
- [26:41]
B
How have you organized your team? What roles have you reserved for yourself? Or what are you, you know, where do you have your hand in the work today? And how have you organized the team structure to divide up that work?
- [26:53]
A
Well, this is the benefit of being about 16 people right now is I'm very hands on, like, I think. And clients smartly, when they interview us, are like, so, what time do I get with you? Like, how much of this project are you going to see? And still, I mean, at this moment in time, I can say I'm going to see and know every part of the creative of your project. Mm, that's a lot. We are at the point, though, that, like, I do say the word creative because I'm like, by the time I go to shop drawings, I'm not going to see all that stuff, you know, But.
- [27:23]
B
Right, right.
- [27:23]
A
But the answer to your question is we've built leadership. And so we have senior directors and directors on our team who have to be well rounded enough to kind of fill in the gaps on the rest of the project. And, like, it is their ideas, too, that I'm yesing and knowing and presenting. And so my role is about revving up the team. Here's the big concept, here's who this person is, here's the problem to solve. Designers, go solve it, and then we're going to talk. And sometimes I sketch, and sometimes I'm like, it's less this than this. And I'm helping them kind of, you know, fast track some stuff. But my job is to rev up my team, get their best product, and to sell it. And when I say that, one of my superpowers, I think is being able to read the room, talk to the client, romance the story, edit it live, which I think is, you know, a really important thing for designers to do. But, you know, our leadership team sort of has the, like, what would Dan do? Mentality, which is important right now. My name's on the door. And to be able to teach and then trust those people is how we've gotten to where we are. And I think they know. Hope they're listening. I hope you guys know, like, I totally trust them. And to Our more junior team, they're there because they want to learn. You know, it's not just because of the projects. And they're learning from some really amazing people with, I would say, like, what a year in New York is seven years elsewhere, maybe, like, from people who have a lot of experience. So, yeah, we set up the team with hierarchy so people can learn, but we also set it that way so there's places for people to grow.
- [29:06]
B
What part of running your firm has tested you the most as an entrepreneur?
- [29:11]
A
I would say early on, it was just naivete around the cycle of projects, what it really takes to get a client, and looking ahead on finances. You know, we're all creative people trying to be business people. And I think at the beginning, I didn't know the business piece. Like a check comes in, great, you have the money. If it doesn't come in, you don't have the money. That I ran it like a personal account, which, to my credit, we always had the money, right. But I think it was in the ebbs and flows of work, coming in a staff, being present, and making sure that we had enough work for them. That was the scariest piece, again, to credit Robin Kramer. She told me at one point, she's like, after five years, it kind of rolls. Like, you can't. Like, you got the phone calls, People are finding you. They know who you are. And it's true. But I would say the first five years of the business, there was a lot of, like, push and pull. I'm like, oh, we're doing this. We wish we had four more people, but we don't. So I do think it never gets easier. It never gets. It doesn't get easier. You just get clarity on when you gotta, like, pull the rip cord and say, we gotta hire, and it's an investment we have to make. So I would say that part has always been the most challenging.
- [30:29]
B
What did it take to start to think about the finances of the business differently or to start, you know, shifting your view on kind of having that steady, full pipeline to sustain the firm you had built?
- [30:41]
A
Well, I think there's a couple of things with finances that are important to address. You know, we do a lot of purchasing, both for our residential work, which a lot of people listening do, and for our commercial work, which is a very specific thing. And so we needed to professionalize that. Like, we needed the system and the bookkeeping and then taxes. Now we're in multiple states. And I was like, oh, this I gotta tap out. This is above my pay grade, right? And so that was one part. But once we sort of clicked in and I saw that those administrative roles were, like, worth their weight in gold, then I was like, okay, now we need to think about that from like a biz dev, from an operations, from a studio management perspective. And so I think it was, you know, this was pretty early in our business. Two or three year two or three or whatever it was. Up until that point, I was writing all the proposals. I was writing them and sending them, getting the checks and depositing the checks. And I feel like once that changed, that opened up more bandwidth for me, and that was a really important piece of it, for sure. I still feel like there's an amount to expand here, right. Whether it is, I think, you know, we're renaming our company finally. So we were BHDM Design. We will now be Mazarini and Co. Which is, you know, it's a wonderful reflection of how we have evolved, how I've evolved as a designer, how I think about the team and value the team, even in the sort of, like, individual expression. But there's a next point out and kind of what we can do as a company. And everybody asks, what it? What is it? And I'm like, I hope it's more and bigger of the same, because I have found it to be a total delight, not just to be a business owner, but to get to do something I love enough that I would do it for free each day, but gratefully well enough that people pay us.
- [32:30]
B
Tell me more about the rebrand, what brought that about and what all has gone into that process.
- [32:37]
A
I think it's an important moment. Like, I think in that same category of, like, what's your personal style? Having launched Archive two years ago and really just making it about, like, what sings with me was the catalyst for this. This. I bought the business from Brian about 10 years ago. And so we've been BHDM kind of without the BH for 10 years. He's still a consultant. Like, this is where I'm like, treat people well. And. And so we still work together. But what I was hearing from my team is they would be in the field. And number one, no one can spell bhdm. So I don't know how they're going to spell Mazarini, but wish us luck. But so we would tell people, you know, where do you work? And my team would hear, like, like, what's bhdm? And they said, oh, blah, blah, blah, Dan Mazarini. Like, oh, we know Dan. And so when you get this feedback enough you're like, wait a minute, why are we not double clicking into the thing that we have credit and sort of have built equity in already? And so plenty of designers have their name on the door. I give them so much credit for sort of like that kind of chutzpah right off the bat. For me, I felt like I've proven myself. I'm proud of my name and my stamp. And now at 45, I also feel like I can speak with authority on things. And so I feel like renaming the company Mazarini & Co. Puts a stake in the sand around what we have equity in, but also empowers the team directly. That it's not just about BH and dm, it's like Dan and everyone. And that was a really important part of it for me. Like, it definitely. It's not that I can't. I don't want to do this on my own. I love people. This is so much more fun when you're like all kind of doing crazy stuff together. So that's how it happened.
- [34:18]
B
That requires a lot of consultants, I would imagine, for visual identity or you're relaunching a website. How did changing the name prompt you to change other things about the way the firm shows up in the marketplace or on the Internet?
- [34:33]
A
Well, we're still involving some of this because, you know, we got full time gigs and I think doing some of this is the second full time gig. But we are working with a couple of people. One of my friend, her name is Elizabeth Tallerman, she comes out of the world of advertising and she's specifically a strategist. So before we even started with like, what do we call it, she came up with a whole manifesto about who we are, what design means in the world, the fact that design is important and this notion of sort of like, like spark an alchemy, an outcome kind of being our process. And I read it, I was like, this is really good, Elizabeth. So for a team that does a lot of storytelling, she brought a story to us about who we are and why we are that. And then she has a woman on her team who helped us with the naming, which you would think it'd be so easy, but people are no way, right? They're like, oh my gosh, how are we gonna spell it? So we started there. I actually approached a number of graphic designers. Some we've worked with, some we haven't. The one that won bid was this guy that I found on Instagram. And I was just like, this looks great. And so he's In Europe, we've been working back and forth. But the other fun part of this is we've used it as yet another opportunity for team building. And so we've done all new headshots for everyone and group shots and we're doing a video kind of this like fun, I'll say manifesto, but it's really more like getting to know you video. And, and I feel like it's fun, but I feel like I'm encouraging people to experience this with me and understand that like, there's a fun next chapter happening in the growth of our company and the messaging of our company. And so the how it's happening is as important as the why for me. And so we're trying to double click into both of those things at the same time.
- [36:21]
B
When you look back at the history of the business, what was the, maybe the most profound business pivot that you made that put the firm on a different trajectory?
- [36:31]
A
I would say that luck has always played a part in the next trajectory of our business. But I used to be a theater kid. I think there's an amount of saying yes to the cues that the universe gives you that have really affected us. And stay with me, number one, as leadership now, we always try to manifest and I'm like, say it out loud. Let's just let just put it out there. And at one point we were like, we need bigger projects. We need bigger projects with longer timelines that candidly have more money. And this was on our commercial side. But the funniest thing happened. We set it and within a couple months got a call at my desk from Google who cold called us. This is the wildest thing. It was a total cold call. Hi, I'm Abram with cbre. We're doing an RFP for a food space. Would you be interested? And I was like, am I getting punked? What's happening? Right? But the pivot there was saying yes to an unknown entity, like, I know enough working at a big company like Ralph Lauren that like these can be slow moving chips sometimes and it's a very specific thing to become a vendor for them. So we said yes. And I will tell you, it has propelled us into a whole different world of opportunity. And it's now been eight years that we've been working with them, which is incredible. We at 8 years, you imagine Google's only existence for like what, 30 or something? We've been a vendor for a very long time. And so now we are a trusted voice in the room. We are educating them about their own history and it's been a really interesting pivot in our business. So now saying yes to them has led to us being able to say yes to some other big organizations that are like minded in how they approach their work. But looking for a company like ours who approaches these all as these really bespoke innovations too.
- [38:28]
B
Windows and doors can totally transform the look and feel of a space, but they can also turn into a serious headache if they're not handled the right way. That's why so many designers turn to Renewal by Andersen's interior designer loyalty program. You'll get a dedicated expert who manages it all, measurements, installations, the works, all while you earn trade rewards and keep your projects running smoothly. Less stress, more time for design. What could be better than that? Apply today at renewalbyandersoninteriordesigner.com that's renewalbyanderson. A N D E R S E N Interior designer terms and conditions apply. Tell me a little bit about Archive, how that came about and why that was an important addition.
- [39:20]
A
So Archive was our take on affiliate marketing. And so rather than me just start to post online like, I like this thing, buy this thing, I was like, let's do it as a blogazine. Let's revisit our own Q archives and talk about projects that people have loved through the years that I think most embody my personal style. And every article we've done, probably 10 house tours, but also all these product roundups, whether it was industrial lighting or split read furniture or, you know, bleached oak, blah blah blah, like all the things that I loved from the projects, I was like, let's shop it. And so it was me being able to be a merchant without having to buy product or open a store, which is another fantasy. So let's put that in the universe. But I think it was an opportunity to solidify personal taste, share that in a meaningful way with people and do it with a different point of view, where it's not just product for product's sake, but rather. And if you read and invite people, go visit. Reading. You know, I wrote all these articles myself and it's both voice and education and some fun on there. So it was a really fun outlet. It has not made us money, I'll be candid about this. But it has, it has made inroads into product partnership and starting to develop product with people, which was sort of like the second notion. And so I'm like, great, this will be something good. And I think more than anything it's affected the DNA of the business that now my own team, if I'm not available, they're like, I'm going to shop it at Archive, because I know it's already pre approved. So I think that's pretty smart.
- [41:00]
B
That's great. You have, you know, you mentioned not wanting to just like, get on Instagram and say, buy this. How have you approached Instagram? What role has that played in the firm's evolution?
- [41:12]
A
Yeah, I mean, early on, and I was not an early adopter. Not an early enough adopter, I should say, which is a bummer because I think that's how people got such big fan bases to begin with. But we used to get, like, actual potential clients that would connect with us. And so people found us because of the work that we posted. And I think the algorithm was not as much a thing then. And your audience was your audience. And they would see stuff every day. I used to do morning moment and I would just like put a post up with those words on it and everybody I got comments, they were like, I love your morning moment. Like, it just feels like this is the thing that's gonna like, send me into the day. But that was then and this is now. And I think the now is the, the best part of Instagram, I will say, is still it's a great equalizer that removes some of, like, the unattainableness sometimes. And so I still like that about it. So it's evolved. We get a little less, like, project potential from it. But I do think that connecting with the industry still happens there, and I really like that about it. And now I gotta talk to the camera a lot more on Instagram, which is like a whole different thing.
- [42:18]
B
Well, I mean, I just saw your, your tour of your basement as you're moving house. I was obsessed with that, by the way.
- [42:23]
A
Oh, my God, what a crazy space.
- [42:27]
B
Yeah, but I think also more normal than you think.
- [42:29]
A
Well, this is. And this, I think is like, why Instagram is still a good equalizer. Is enough people saw that and they're like, oh, thank God. Like, that's what my basement looks like. And I'm like, great. You know, like, designers are all fancy hoarders. We're not.
- [42:42]
B
Right.
- [42:43]
A
I love her, but, like, we can't all be as organized as Martha Stewart. So, like, yeah, it's shit in the basement. Sorry, guys. Like, this is what it looks like, but. But, you know, it's how you put it together in an end. I do think stuff like that when we come across it is really fun. And it's also the insight to the realness of, like, the person that I think people appreciate, so. Which I'm sure you can tell in barely. Not her.
- [43:07]
B
Not scared of a camera.
- [43:10]
A
That too, yeah.
- [43:11]
B
Has that part been fun?
- [43:12]
A
It is fun. It definitely was something that I had to learn though, too, because, you know, like, you do these interviews all the time. You're a natural, but it takes like the revolutions of it before you're like, okay, I have stretched this muscle. I know what this is. So there's definitely a learning there. But I think it's fun.
- [43:29]
B
You seem to embrace change in a way that's really refreshing. You seem open to it.
- [43:34]
A
I think my husband would tell you otherwise. But what I will tell you is I like evolution. And so, you know, zero to 60 change for me can be a little daunting, but I think we'll call it sort of like being 45 and being able to look back on things. Change has never been a bad thing. And, you know, to kind of like. And where I started, Robin Kramer, when I was leaving, she said that to me. She was like, change is always good. It's always a good thing. There's always something to learn, something to evolve from or to. And so I don't think we have an option. But I also think if you approach it from a place of love and learning rather than like fear and resistance, what's the worst that can happen? You know, you evolve and you make a decision if you love something or not. But yeah, I would say I'm. I'm more in the first camp. Like, evolution is a great thing.
- [44:26]
B
I mean, the economy is weird right now. I think it's a weird time to be running design jobs. I've heard that chatter.
- [44:32]
A
I think it's a weird time generally, don't you?
- [44:34]
B
Well, sure, absolutely. But how is that showing up in your day to day right now? What are the conversations you're having to have with your team, with your clients about the economics of design?
- [44:48]
A
I think clients exist in kind of different financial buckets, for sure. Right. And we're at a moment in time as a firm where, you know, I want to pay our team well. And so we are pursuing a particular value of client right, to say it that way. That said, you know, even some of our biggest, most returning clients are feeling the crunch. Like technology is changing, money is changing. Like, everything is happening really fast. And so the trickle down of this is. I have this phrase, happy scrappy, that will be on my tombstone someday. But. But I do think that it's where we started as a Company which is like, you can do a lot without a lot of money sometimes. Everybody cares about value, and value is as much about perception as it is about dollars sometimes. And so we are really conscientious across the board, residential, commercial, hotels, etc. Of where we encourage clients to spend and where we acknowledge and inform them. Like, we think you should pull back here, because who doesn't want to hear that? Like, this is a place that you can save and still have an incredible impact. And I would say across, there's only been one client in my whole career who asked me point blank, do you think we should be spending more money? And I was like, God bless. If you want to, we could totally do that. But I would say the universal now is around value, where we bring it, how we drive it, and where we let people know that, like, you can do. You can do more with less here, and it's still going to be okay. And so an amount of value engineering is going into our designs even before we show it to a client so that we don't have to water stuff down. I'd rather make the decision than to have our clients say, like, what if it's this instead of this? I'm like, ooh, that's not the thing. But. So we do think that way. But I also think on the other side of this conversation, and I mentioned workrooms specifically, you know, we are in this moment when better, faster, cheaper is sort of like the mantra when it comes to purchasing, when it comes to stuff, when it comes to our clients saying, like, we want it and we want it tomorrow. And like, that doesn't equate to quality all the time. But more than that, there's a real threat to our industry in us not valuing skilled trades and us not talking about this in a much bigger way, much louder, much more often, so we can do a full, separate conversation around that. But listen, my grandfather was a tile setter. My other grandfather was always creative. And what was once backbreaking work doesn't need to be that way, but we need to tell people and we need to pay people enough to say, this is a good thing and this is a great way to build a career because our professions rely on it. Like, we're only going to be as good as the people making our thing things. And so there's a whole backup plan here. Like, if you want me to be a painter someday, I'll probably do that.
- [47:48]
B
What makes you say yes today? What are you looking for in a client in a project?
- [47:53]
A
And a project, it's got to be interesting. I want to learn, I want to do something different. I want to do like the next thing that would get me excited to be like, okay, I've never done a cruise ship before, before, but it's happening, you know, like things like that, that.
- [48:07]
B
I'm like, wait, for real?
- [48:09]
A
Yeah, it's happening. So, you know, we talk about evolution, we talk about expanding. I never want to grow, just to grow. But as a person, I want to continue learning and growing and that sort of is the driver and why I have a business to begin with. So that's like what do I look for in a project, in a client? I'm looking for open mindedness because I think that that's a really specific thing. If you tell me in, you know, initial meeting, I'm looking for this and this and this. I'm like, well, you kind of know what you want so I can service this. But if somebody's like, I don't know what I want, but I want it to feel this way, the emotional quotient of that for me is I'm open minded and I want somebody to bring their point of view and expertise and that's really important for me. So I think both of those things, things what I look for in a project, what I look for in client, you know, are echoed in what I look for in a team and so want to learn, want to explore, and also want to be open minded and diverse in what we do together.
- [49:09]
B
What does leveling up mean to you right now?
- [49:12]
A
It's saying yes to the right things and no to the right things so that you have bandwidth to say yes to the prior. Yeah, I think it's about prioritizing your time and making sure that you, I, my team, are putting our energy into work that will be tomorrow's portfolio. And so leveling up for me might not mean sizing up. It might not mean, yeah, you know, changing the infrastructure of the company, but I think it is acting with clarity around what we say yes to. Understanding that you only have so many hours in the day and, and how we control the narrative and what we kind of let in is a big part of that.
- [49:54]
B
You mentioned your portfolio. Do you shoot everything?
- [49:57]
A
You know, we document a lot. We document a lot for sure. Mostly because I'm like, you know, it's me, but it's also 16 other people and I'm like, I can't value this Google project more or less than this two rooms that we do over here. Everybody's worked on it and so some of it is a thank you to the team. But I also find that there's. We have a bunch of different audiences with what we shoot. Sometimes it's portfolio, sometimes it's website, sometimes it's social. But all those have merit. And so we photograph and document a lot. And I would say to a younger audience who might be listening, it's really important that you do that. Like, without it, you only have process. And I think if you are able to make it to the end of a project, document it and document it in the way that you want it to look. Like if you. If your client wanted different pillows than what you want, get the pillows that you want, spend the money and put them in the project. If you, you know, if you can't afford art for the project, but you think it's really important, make a friend with a gallerist and tell them you're going to shoot it. And, like, be honest about it. But, like, finish the project in the way that you want it to look, because that documentation is an expression of. Of your work. It goes back to, like, my job is to sell. I need it to look like something that represents my brand, because that's what I'm selling. I'm not selling my client per se. So I'm not saying you can repaint the room. People don't really like when you do that. Right. But. And I would say don't Photoshop, like, do that sparingly, because photographers don't like that. But if you've got to bring the accessories and the pillows or a rug or a thing, and like, they didn't have the money to finish it, you finish that thing and you shoot it, because that is your calling card.
- [51:38]
B
What does success look like for you today?
- [51:42]
A
Success for me is a happy team, an amount. Not an extreme amount, but an amount of work, life balance, and recognition. And I think the last is important to me because for a long time in my career, I worked on teams or with companies where I was kind of the silent designer. And I know I'm good, and I know I'm productive, and I know I an overachiever at some of these things, but I think acknowledgement now is often graded by my peers. And I think it's, you know, you got to put it on the universe. Like, it's something that's important to me because I think that it is as much calling card as that. That image that you photograph. And so success is all those things, and success is always a happy client. Right. It doesn't matter if you get to the end of the day and someone's like, thanks for the project. We hate it. Like that doesn't happen. But that is, that is a real calling card of success for me too.
- [52:48]
B
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, check out new products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. If you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@tradetalesusinessofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Katelyn Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you back here next week.