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Trade Tales
Jean Liu’s trick for measuring client commitment
00:56:56
Jean Liu on why she’s capping her firm at a certain size, the importance a retainer plays in gauging a client’s level of commitment, and how she helps prepare her team for their next chapter.
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- [00:03]
Jean Liu
We finished a new construction job recently and the husband and wife are amazing. And they said to me, wow, we didn't realize there was still so much information you guys needed from us. We thought by hiring you guys we wouldn't need to be as involved. I think clients need to understand that hiring a designer means you still have to be an active participant.
- [00:25]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back. Welcome back for season six of the show where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea or way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer who launched her own firm and proved to herself that she could find success outside of the family business. More than a day decade on, she shares why she's revisiting what it means to be a leader and how she's charting a path to growth in which bigger isn't always better. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. This podcast is brought to you by Cloughs, the world leader in sauna luxury at home. Wellness rooms are on the rise and Clafs designs saunas for the discerning eye. With nearly a century of storied craftsmanship and innovation, Cloves has perfected the art of the sauna. The result is a distinct and elegant design that harnesses the transformative powers of heat. There are saunas and then there are klaffs saunas. To learn more about the leaders in sauna luxury and their exclusive trade programs, visit klafsusa.com that's K-L-A-F S USA. Come.
- [02:14]
Jean Liu
We grew up in a very traditional household where arts and being creative it was celebrated but it wasn't something that we were encouraged to pursue as a career. And then I got to college and I was a foreign service major and you had to take a year long History of China course. There was one week long period where we talked about the arts and culture, namely all of the porcelain and the ceramics that came out of China. And I remembered that that was the piece I was most in love with. But I thought, oh well, I came back to Dallas. We have a family business. We are in the distribution of what we call decorative hardwired lighting. It Was a family business that was started by my father. I felt a responsibility to come back and figure out what I wanted to do with this business after I got out of school. So when I came act of Dallas, it was really only meant to be a year long stint.
- [03:15]
Caitlin Peterson
That's Jean Liu. During her time at home, a friend convinced her to purchase and renovate an old Tudor style home. By the time the project was finished, Jean found herself hooked on the process of home flipping.
- [03:29]
Jean Liu
At the end of this process, we had such a good time doing it. We went on to flip three more homes. The last home that we did was the largest. And it was also at a time when the economy was starting to slow. I was pretty young. I'd never had that much money into a house, and I was starting to sweat the fact that it hadn't sold. State agent I used said, hey, I actually think you're going to be in better shape if you try to come in and do some of the soft touches in this big Tudor home. I went back in and I did all the window treatments and just a few more small touches. And the week later, the house was under contract.
- [04:10]
Caitlin Peterson
Soon, Jean was taking on design projects for friends and forming an LLC to handle all the business that was suddenly coming her way. Before going all in on the new endeavor, she decided to seek out a design mentor to help her find the best path forward.
- [04:25]
Jean Liu
I then spend a couple years, I guess apprenticing is probably the best way to say it, with a friend who works as an interior designer. I really credit her with learning the real aspect of what it means to do an interior design job. Meaning go to a workroom. What questions do you ask of the workroom? How do you actually invoice a client? How do you talk to a client when something's late or comes in damaged? I think at the end of two years of that, I really felt like the next step for me was to go out on my own.
- [05:00]
Caitlin Peterson
In 2010, Jean officially launched her firm. I wanted to talk to her about why she's capping her team in a certain size, the importance a retainer plays, engaging a client's level of commitment, and why she's always thinking about preparing her team for their next chapter. What was the moment in kind of the early days of your firm or as your firm became more established, that you just felt it was going to work, that you were going to make it? Was there, like a moment of clarity that you were going to find success?
- [05:36]
Jean Liu
I think that when I landed one large project, I thought, okay, now I know I can actually do this. And I think having my first project published in print felt like another milestone. That, okay, see, I really can do this. But I want to be clear, for anyone who's listening to this, you're never really sure, right. Every year, every day, you kind of question, you know, what, what's next?
- [06:07]
Caitlin Peterson
What were your goals when you launched the firm?
- [06:10]
Jean Liu
I wanted to do good work that was reflective of my style. I wanted to prove to myself that I could start something outside of a family business, which, you know, may look like it was given to me or I wanted that kind of independence and I wanted to be able to develop this, a studio where it wasn't just me. I surrounded by a group of people who shared the same creative vision and became great friends that I would want to come to work and see every single day.
- [06:51]
Caitlin Peterson
How soon was it before you started hiring?
- [06:54]
Jean Liu
I don't think it was for another two years. And I probably waited too long. I think you always worry that I'm going to hire somebody and then not have enough work to support them or myself financially. So by the time I made that hire, I was probably, I would say, six months to a year overdue for needing that help.
- [07:19]
Caitlin Peterson
When you look back or when you think about that now, what is the kind of the marker that it is time to expand, that it's time to make that leap?
- [07:28]
Jean Liu
It's when you have no work life balance. I remember being on the verge of tears, and I was so overwhelmed by the amount of work that I'd had, I didn't even know where to start. So that was really when I felt like it was worth taking the risk to go hire somebody. Even if a year from now or that time, I might not have enough work for this person. Person. But I couldn't think about a year from that time point because I was struggling to just get through that next week.
- [08:01]
Caitlin Peterson
How did you prioritize who to hire as you built your team?
- [08:04]
Jean Liu
Yeah. So that first hire was this designer had gone to school properly trained in interior design. Remember, I am not. And so I was attracted to that piece of it. But she was also working in a job that was not particularly fulfilling. And so what I really liked about this first hire, her name is Lisa, is that I think her work ethic and mine were very much aligned. And I didn't even have to say it. I think she knew that it was a stretch for me to hire her so that if she came on board, we were both really going to just do everything and anything it took to make it a successful relationship from the get go. And I'm proud to say she's still here today.
- [08:52]
Caitlin Peterson
I was just gonna say that's the same Lisa who's on your website, right?
- [08:55]
Jean Liu
Yes, yes.
- [08:57]
Caitlin Peterson
What did that relationship unlock for you? How did having a team member change the way you were able to show up in your work?
- [09:05]
Jean Liu
Lisa brought lots of things to this studio that I had never even thought about. We were working on construction projects, and she would say, well, have we thought about creating some kind of template? All of these selections are housed in one spot. And when she said it, yes, it immediately made sense to me. But I don't think it had ever even dawned on me. I was literally just keeping sheets of paper with what the client had selected, whether it was plumbing or tile or door hardware. But I never entered it into a spreadsheet where I could have all that information at my fingertips. Another thing that she got me to do, which I laugh to this day, I still kept a paper calendar. And I loved the way that she asked me. She never forced anything down my throat. She would very gently suggest these things. Have you ever thought about putting all of these appointments into an Outlook calendar? And I kind of scoffed at the idea of it, but looking back now, I don't even know how I could get through the day without Outlook telling me where to go, what time to be there. So she brought all of these sort of the architecture of the studio that I didn't even know I needed.
- [10:22]
Caitlin Peterson
How long was it just the two of you and when did you start to grow the team again?
- [10:26]
Jean Liu
I think it was just the two of us for three years. And then I started getting, believe it or not, resumes from designers coming out of school. I was never really a fan of going out and seeking more design help. I feel like I had such good luck the first time. I was afraid to ruin that record. So I just would, in similar fashion, just keep willing to work longer and longer hours until I couldn't stand it anymore. But then, three years into it, we were just dying. She and I were working seven days a week, and we both knew that this was not sustainable, but at the same time, very protective of the kind of atmosphere we wanted to be able to maintain in our very tiny studio. So we hired a junior designer. She was great. All the people in my studio, I literally say I would lay down in traffic for them. And so she was the next person to join us.
- [11:31]
Caitlin Peterson
Has it been sort of that similar, like, every couple of years, like, bring in somebody in a different role to Help out kind of pattern or was there ever like a flurry of activity for you?
- [11:44]
Jean Liu
We did have a time period like four years ago where we had one client and numerous projects going with that one client. And that was a time period where we did have to hire more than just sort of one every two to three years to up. And that I don't think was sustainable. But it was a fun few years when we got all of those things together.
- [12:11]
Caitlin Peterson
You're five today, including you, is that right?
- [12:14]
Jean Liu
Yes.
- [12:15]
Caitlin Peterson
We talk a lot on this show about how a principal's role evolves as their team grows. How did you have to think about delegating or kind of stepping back a little bit and being more in that kind of reviewing role? And was that a welcome change? Change for you?
- [12:33]
Jean Liu
I say to my team, I don't personally believe anybody's ready to be on their own until they can talk to a client and navigate difficult conversations without me being there. So I ended up taking on the, aside from the design piece, the part where I'm the main communicator with the client. I show up to all of the presentations or as many of them as possible unless I'm traveling. But I'm also there when, if there's an unhappy conversation, I should say I try not to put the people in my studio in that role because I don't think they're fully equipped to manage that on their own. So I've started being the one that maintains a lot of the contact with the clients. I do enjoy it for the most part. I really like the people I get to work with. By and large. There are always the exceptions. And it was also very easy for me to give up mundane things like trying to request samples from a showroom. Ask where this estimate was on this table that we've asked for three times already. Those are the easy things that I was more than happy to just get off my plate.
- [13:49]
Caitlin Peterson
Were there things that were hard to give up?
- [13:52]
Jean Liu
Yes. I used to, believe it or not, I used to key all the invoices myself.
- [13:58]
Caitlin Peterson
That was hard to give up.
- [13:59]
Jean Liu
It was. Yes, it was a double edged sword. The reason why it was hard to give up is I think it's hard to run a successful studio when you don't know where every penny is. And when I was doing my own invoices, I knew exactly down to the penny where things were. So I now rely on somebody to give me that information. But there is a comfort level to knowing that because you did it yourself.
- [14:25]
Caitlin Peterson
What do you look at now or what are kind of the essential things that you are looking at from that report to understand the financial health of your business?
- [14:36]
Jean Liu
I do look at what percentage of our income or revenue is billable. Time versus product. I look at on a regular basis if my clients and which ones are past due and if it's just a fluke or if there's a pattern. If there's a pattern, I generally think there's something more going on and it sparks some kind of conversation. Generally, it's a. Are you unhappy with the work we're doing, or do you feel like the project is just running over budget beyond what you and your family thought it would be? So those are the things I'm looking at. And I can tell any client of mine who might listen to this. I'm always looking at it from the client's point of view. If they. If I'm the client and I got the invoice, do I think it looks reasonable?
- [15:27]
Caitlin Peterson
Everyone's billing hourly. Are you billing at different rates for different levels of experience then, or for the same. At the same rate for everyone?
- [15:35]
Jean Liu
No, That's a good question. We are definitely billing at different rates that reflect experience. And I also say that I try to get our junior designer in our studio to do this. I get. I try to get everyone to do the other things that don't require me because I have the highest rate in the studio.
- [15:54]
Caitlin Peterson
That that impulse is incredibly honest and incredibly fair, but also sort of at odds with profitability in some ways. How do you navigate that as the owner of the business?
- [16:08]
Jean Liu
I think this sounds really naive, but I do believe that one of the reasons I loved this job so much to walk away from, to be honest, a lot more money was because I love what I'm doing. And so I think it always. The way I view our billable time is always coming from a place of transparency and honesty. The best that I know how to do. What I'm equally not okay with is us being upside down because we bid a job flat fee and told the client that this included two revisions. And now we're on revision seven and we have nothing to show for the additional, I don't know, 25, 30 hours of time we had to put into it.
- [16:53]
Caitlin Peterson
Do you do that much on a flat fee these days or is everything hourly?
- [16:57]
Jean Liu
I will do a flat fee. It is something I really avoid. I try to avoid doing it, but on occasion, I will make the exception.
- [17:09]
Caitlin Peterson
Is that for residential or for commercial or a firm mix?
- [17:13]
Jean Liu
It's for mix. I would say the hospitality World really will not tolerate, in my experience, anything but a flat fee.
- [17:21]
Caitlin Peterson
They want a number, right?
- [17:23]
Jean Liu
A number. And I understand on those types of projects, what we do is call out what that design fee includes. So we spend a lot more time outlining what the scope of work looks like. And we've gotten pretty good at also outlining what ad services looks like. So for example, if we are to walk the job site together 12 times over 12 months and I have to walk it, or I'm being asked to walk it 30 times, that balance of 18 job site visits becomes an ad service type of example. I will also do a flat fee on a residential project. I generally don't like to do it because we then have to bid it on the high side because we trying to make sure we're covering our own bases. So in those instances, we actually the studio actually wins. In terms of making more on the job, I always advocate doing billable time.
- [18:26]
Caitlin Peterson
How do you talk to clients about money at the start of a project? How are you explaining what design costs, the value that your firm is bringing, and what their budget should be realistically?
- [18:40]
Jean Liu
You know, I think this is an interesting topic that you're bringing up because I feel like over the last two years we've had to continue to refine how we talk about that we. I don't like to talk about money, but I think it's uncomfortable. But I feel like more and more it's something that has to be talked about almost as one of the top, top two, three topics when you start, when you meet a new client. And I used to really. I still don't have a minimum cap on what a job would look like before we would be willing to take it. I felt like that ran counter to why I wanted to do this as a career. But I'm starting to realize why having some kind of minimum makes sense. And so we talk about when I meet a client, what is your budget? I don't necessarily tell them. I don't necessarily choose or not choose your job depending on the budget. I try to understand what kind of an impact we can make. If I don't feel like having us on board can take your can significantly improve your job just because of how little your budget is, then we won't take it. It's not because you don't have enough dollars to spend with us. It's just what kind of overall improvement are we able to bring to the table. So that's one piece of it. Luckily, I'm also oftentimes in the room with the architect and the builder. So they're all being challenged to have the same conversation almost simultaneously. So there's a little bit of safety in numbers. We talk about how we bill what that looks like. I show them even examples of what a billable time invoice might look like and what a product invoice might look like. Because I don't really want there to be this comment later. Well, we didn't know. Dot, dot, dot.
- [20:34]
Caitlin Peterson
Right. Anything. Yeah.
- [20:36]
Jean Liu
Yes. I try to give as much on the front end as I know how to do, and then I let them kind of ask me all kinds of questions.
- [20:44]
Caitlin Peterson
What do new clients tend to misunderstand about the design portion of the project.
- [20:49]
Jean Liu
How long it takes, just how many questions and responses we still need from them, even though they've enlisted the help of a professional. We finished a new job. We finished a new construction job recently, and the husband and wife are amazing. And they said to me, wow, we didn't realize there was still so much information you guys needed from us. We thought by hiring you guys, we wouldn't need to be as involved. I mean, they didn't say it in a negative way. Just I think they. I think clients need to understand that hiring a designer means you still have to be an active participant. Unless we hear loud and clear from the front end, just call me when it's done. And here's the amount of money I'm willing to spend.
- [21:35]
Caitlin Peterson
You know, you mentioned, like, balancing profitability, but time billing and, you know, revenue from product sales. How are you looking at that? How are you talking to clients about markup or about product sales? And has that evolved for you over the years?
- [21:52]
Jean Liu
I would say that we don't really talk to clients about the markup in the sense of we tell them what our markup is and that's where we leave it. And I have done quite a bit of legwork on our own to make sure that what we think our markup is is competitive for the industry. So I'm always trying to understand, are we asking too much? Are we asking not enough? What's fair? So, you know, occasionally clients will go, well, why is it this and I go, well, it's reflective of the level of work we're doing, our experience. But if you think about it, most places where you would be able to buy something, they're going to charge you retail. Most places where we have a trade account, the difference is somewhere between 15 and 20. So by and large, you're essentially paying retail for our eyes and our experience help. So it doesn't it shouldn't feel like too much of a premium. I mean, the other way we've offered this is would you expect to sell a widget and make no money on it?
- [23:11]
Caitlin Peterson
How does anyone answer that? Right.
- [23:13]
Jean Liu
I mean, the design itself is a very separate matter from, well, product piece of it.
- [23:20]
Caitlin Peterson
I think that's a new idea, relatively new idea in the industry, though, in some ways. I mean, I think like in the last decade, designers have really started to articulate the design has value outside of sourcing product more clearly. Has that become more important to you to say that to a client?
- [23:41]
Jean Liu
I haven't really incorporated that into those early conversations, but I do think that distinction is starting to get a little bit brighter in our own. In my own mind, because working on some hospitality projects where, you know, we have to hand over the design and there's a whole procurement department or third party that handles the purchase of everything. And so in that particular scenario, the design really does have value outside of the product itself because we, we won't be handling any of that product purchase.
- [24:18]
Caitlin Peterson
Or placement with that markup. Is that about, you know, I'm thinking of the widget question. Is the markup to you about profit or is it also about making money on the time spent to procure those items?
- [24:33]
Jean Liu
Yes, we do. We are very clear in our initial conversation that our time is our time. So all of any time we spend working on any aspect of the project is billable time. I will say I don't believe that our markup is as high as it could be to really allow for some room there. But it also, it also comes into play when we decide which showrooms and which vendors to work with. No names to be mentioned here, of course. We've been trying to track down a quote on a piece of furniture from a showroom for three weeks, and it's for what I consider a sizable order. But it's taken someone so long to call us back just to give us the price and the lead time. It's what would make me not want to go back and use that showroom just because what, the thing that my client wants, showroom is not so unique that we can't find something very similar from another place where I would probably get a call back by the end of the day and not have to spend our billable time trying to run down somebody to get an answer.
- [25:49]
Caitlin Peterson
Is that a place where you'll shave hours off of an invoice?
- [25:52]
Jean Liu
It depends. If it were something that I had suggested, then yes, absolutely. But in this particular case, I had already experienced the challenge of working with this particular showroom. And so it was not my suggestion to source this piece of furniture. The client specifically said, I. I think I would like this, this, this showroom. So I said, well, okay. I even said I have not had the best luck in the past with a responsive. With them being responsive, but we're happy to do it if that's really what you want.
- [26:29]
Caitlin Peterson
I think I asked you at the beginning, you know, what your goals were when you launched the firm. As you've been in this industry longer, has that reshaped or changed your ambitions in any ways?
- [26:41]
Jean Liu
Honestly, I think I'm not as the noble cause doesn't feel as strong to me anymore. I think I'm still very committed to doing good work. But I think that maybe it's that I have a daughter who really requires more of my time today than when I first started. And so I think really if we can't be doing good work and working with great clients and partners, I would rather be at home spending my time doing other things. And so I feel like some of those original goals, not that they've totally gone away, but they maybe are not as highlighted in my mind today as they were when we started.
- [27:24]
Caitlin Peterson
How has that shifted? Maybe what you say yes to or how you choose to get involved in projects.
- [27:32]
Jean Liu
I do think we're starting to get choosier about the type. Types of people that we want to work with and the size of the projects we want to take on. So I also feel like the number one piece of that that I'm still I don't have the answer to is how do you figure out that you and the client are a good fit? Because a little bit like dating. I. I say often you sometimes don't know your not a good match until you've already started working on the project.
- [28:06]
Caitlin Peterson
Right.
- [28:06]
Jean Liu
Because I firmly believe that both sides can put their best foot forward for the first few meetings. And it's not until a theoretical honeymoon phases over that you really start seeing what each other is like to work with.
- [28:21]
Caitlin Peterson
How far in are you when that happens?
- [28:24]
Jean Liu
Three months, six months.
- [28:26]
Caitlin Peterson
Decisions have been made, lots of money has been exchanged. Yes.
- [28:30]
Jean Liu
We're married.
- [28:31]
Caitlin Peterson
Yeah. How are you trying to assess client fit right now? What does that look like for you?
- [28:39]
Jean Liu
We obviously meet for a couple of. I try to meet a couple times. It used to be that I could meet someone one time and have a. Or thought I had a pretty good sense. And now I try to meet over a couple of interactions. I Try to ask more directed questions about what their vision is. Have they worked with the designer in the past? Exactly how much money do they want to spend on this project? I think that's the piece that's really changed. I used to never want to talk about the money, and now I kind of go, okay, what is this spend that you're comfortable with? And we're taking bigger retainers these days because. Not because we necessarily want to hold a client's money, but I heard this in the beginning when I was a younger interior designer. I just didn't want to believe it. The retainer, in my opinion, is really a way to see if a client's serious about the project because it's really easy to say, let's work together. And then I literally had this happen. Nine months go by and we have not made any substantive progress on the job. And yet we're so busy they're taking up a slot that someone else who really wants to work with us could be coming in, working with us, making decisions. We could actually see progress. So the retainer now becomes a way to say, okay, you want to work with us? Show me you want to work with us.
- [30:06]
Caitlin Peterson
Is that a retainer for. Against billable hours? Is that a retainer that they will later spend, like a guarantee that they'll spend that on product? Where does that money or like, what is that money applied to eventually?
- [30:18]
Jean Liu
Good question. So that retainer is against billable time and theoretically the last invoice at billable time. We will not order product until it's 100% paid for.
- [30:33]
Caitlin Peterson
Do you feel the difference in the way that clients show up when they engage in that way?
- [30:39]
Jean Liu
I do. I have noticed that these are clients who are much more committed to their projects. They are on board. If not the ones asking for a weekly meeting or a bi weekly meeting, they are generally far quicker to respond when we send an email or we've got a question. And that's really the kind of client we want to be working with. I don't really want to be working with people who aren't serious about their project because we are very serious about our work. I go home and I think about my jobs. I think about. I dream about the jobs too.
- [31:18]
Caitlin Peterson
It's getting like all 24 hours. Yeah.
- [31:21]
Jean Liu
Yeah. It feels like in any relationship, I don't want there to be a huge discrepancy in commitment from either side.
- [31:30]
Caitlin Peterson
What part of running your firm has tested you the most as an entrepreneur?
- [31:36]
Jean Liu
My responsibility to the people that are on my team, you know, Also went into this. I said to you, in the beginning, one of my goals was to work with people I really enjoyed. And then we shared the vision. And so making sure that they're getting what they need, that they feel fulfilled, that they're actually making competitive wages, all of those things. I really try to take them on as people, as part of my extended family. And so we're still small enough where their struggles and their achievements are equally mine. And I think that's the part that creates the peaks and the valleys the most in this business.
- [32:17]
Caitlin Peterson
How do you think about employee growth, employee development, and kind of creating room for movement within the firm?
- [32:24]
Jean Liu
You know, I think that's the limitation. Right. I mean, at a studio of five, there is not a whole lot of room for growth. And I'm very honest about it. But. But I also believe that our studio is set up in a way where I encourage my designers to go and do things that are creative, that nurture their interests outside of a strict interior design setting. But at the same time, I've also said I have no interest in growing the studio beyond a certain number because the family business is so large that managing personalities was a lot of what my day looked like, and that was not fulfilling for me. And so I think that around beyond six, you're not really doing anything substantively design, like, anymore. I'm managing personalities day in and day out.
- [33:23]
Caitlin Peterson
Yeah.
- [33:23]
Jean Liu
You know, when. When you hear, like, some of these interior design studios have 20 designers, 40 designers, and sure, that is definitely a signifier of how successful they are, but that's not something that I want.
- [33:36]
Caitlin Peterson
Yeah. For me, is 6 sort of the limit for you?
- [33:41]
Jean Liu
6 is the limit for me. Yeah.
- [33:43]
Caitlin Peterson
What are you doing to nurture some of the. The creativity and development of your team members, maybe outside of sort of the. The norms of their roles within the studio?
- [33:55]
Jean Liu
You know, I would say in a pre Covid era, we traveled quite a bit. We would go to shows, we would go to fairs. I think right now, my big thing to our studio meets is we're moving. We. We have done this for the last three years. We really shut down between Christmas and the first week of a new year. And I encourage all of them to really go home and either spend time with their family or use it as an opportunity to go see something that they want to see creatively, artistically, musically, just to use it as a full recharge, whatever that means for them. And so that's all paid time off on top of their personal time that they already get. And I Think it's the easiest thing for me to do as a business owner because every single one of them needs something different, whether it's their interests, the point of. Point of where they are in life. So that additional time is. Is the only way I know how to serve all of them equally.
- [35:03]
Caitlin Peterson
Yeah, totally. How long have you been doing that?
- [35:07]
Jean Liu
We started about three years ago. It worked really well, and so it's something I plan on doing going forward or continuing to do going forward.
- [35:20]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [36:25]
Jean Liu
In my capacity as a co chair for Kips Bay, I think I'm really proud of us being able to have a showhouse here in Dallas. I think that it solidifies in my mind Dallas as a design centric city. There is a lot of really good stuff happening here in this industry. And I, until Kips Bay came around, did not feel like Dallas got its fair share of visibility and props. So as somebody in this community, it's been a huge win. As somebody who participated in a show house, I feel like there is this unspoken you have arrived moment when you designer. I, to be clear, did Kips Bay when somebody decided not to complete their space?
- [37:16]
Caitlin Peterson
Oh, my God.
- [37:17]
Jean Liu
So the fact that we were able to do that space in three weeks was something that I almost enjoyed the challenge. I wanted to prove to myself that we could do that. And so, yes, it probably shaved a year off my overall life.
- [37:34]
Caitlin Peterson
I believe that wholeheartedly.
- [37:36]
Jean Liu
I can't even say in public or, you know, while I'm being recorded how much money it cost us, but we got it done. I called in every favor I ever banked to get that done, but it happened. And I think we Felt really good about our ability to do something under that tight of a turnaround time or a timeline.
- [37:59]
Caitlin Peterson
Most people are like bemoaning what, like five to six weeks for Kips Bay. So to do it in three is pretty extraordinary.
- [38:07]
Jean Liu
We don't want to do that again, but I don't encourage that. Yeah, but I do think every designer should do Kips Bay when it's right for their career and their studio.
- [38:19]
Caitlin Peterson
How did you know? How did you know you were ready for it? Not you necessarily, but like, how should one gauge whether or not they're ready?
- [38:26]
Jean Liu
I think they a need to be financially ready for the spend. So theoretically, if you have worked long enough or have managed to scroll away anywhere between I would say 50 to $200,000 that you can earmark towards Kips Bay, that's probably a good sign. I would say if you've started getting published some and you are really ready to take the firm to the next level in terms of visibility projects and you have the manpower to dedicate, that's probably another good sign that Kips Bay is a good idea. And. Or if you maybe want to pivot a look or a point of view from a design sense, I think Kips Bay is a great place to showcase that.
- [39:16]
Caitlin Peterson
What did it mean for you? Why was it so important to participate for you?
- [39:20]
Jean Liu
So I want to give some background. I was supposed to do Kips Bay in New York in 2020. In March of 2020, I was actually measuring a staircase in New York and it was the last plane ride we took Dallas. So for me, it was always a bucket list thing to do Kips Bay, New York. And I did not really want to go and do another Kips Bay until New York happened again. And so when. But when this situation came up in Dallas, I was. I agreed to do the entry. The entry is great and it's horrible all at the same time. The entry is great because it's the first impression. I mean, maybe not the first because the exterior and the landscape might be the first, but when you walk in the house, it's the first thing you see. It's horrible because everybody uses your space as a way to get to their space.
- [40:17]
Caitlin Peterson
So for install, that's gotta. You're waiting for everyone to finish, aren't you?
- [40:21]
Jean Liu
Yes. So for anybody listening to this, who knows, Nazeera, she warned me in the beginning, so I knew how it was gonna go and that was very helpful. But Kips Bay, maybe there's another one in my future as well. I'd still like to be able to say I did New York just for myself. It's maybe a silly box that I want to check, but I.
- [40:43]
Caitlin Peterson
So I think that's great. You mentioned, you know, having the manpower to be able to do it. And I think that piece often goes unrecognized. How much of your business has to be put on pause while you dedicate your time and your team's time to executing something on a crazy timeline? Is that something you felt kind of viscerally when you said yes?
- [41:10]
Jean Liu
Yes. Because I won't speak for anybody else, but for us, most of our projects had to go on hold. You know, we could.
- [41:19]
Caitlin Peterson
I've heard that before.
- [41:20]
Jean Liu
Yeah, yeah, we could handle the hot burning 911 type of topics, but the normal course of work had to be put on hold while we through all of our efforts towards Kips Bay. And it doesn't end at opening day. You know, one of the things the committee talks about and I fully encourage is if you've spent the time, the money and whatever resources you've dedicated to be part of the show house, the designer and the team should spend as much time at the house as possible to meet as many people, to get all of the exposure that you've essentially paid for through putting the room together. And so that means you're out of pocket anywhere between another two to four weeks. Well, I say two to four because Kipps Bay used to run four weeks and now my understanding is that all the Kipps Bays will be two weeks.
- [42:24]
Caitlin Peterson
So you're staffing it for like the two weeks yourself instead of a month.
- [42:28]
Jean Liu
Correct. I mean, you can. I know people hire either friends or other people to staff the rooms for them when they can't be there, but it's still the best when, you know, a visitor comes to the house and they get to meet and talk to the designer in person.
- [42:46]
Caitlin Peterson
Did you. What was the result for you? Sort of in the aftermath of participating, was there a noticeable shift for you in your business?
- [42:53]
Jean Liu
I don't think that there was a noticeable shift for me. I, I did Kips Bay in the year where it was only open for full.
- [43:02]
Caitlin Peterson
Oh my gosh.
- [43:03]
Jean Liu
But I do feel like I get still great compliments from people who say, oh, I remember your space for Kips Bay. It was great. Or it was my favorite. Or I recently got a message from a fellow designer friend that I don't get to talk to very often and she goes, I want you to know this was one of the inspiration photos for this project I just finished. So that felt really rewarding.
- [43:28]
Caitlin Peterson
What are other ways that you have approached sort of showcasing what your firm can do? What are the places where you've invested or where you've really focused your efforts and energy to share your work and kind of your firm's output?
- [43:44]
Jean Liu
You know, we. We like a good press story as much as anybody, so we obviously relish in, in those times when we see projects of ours published, whether it's online or in print. But another way that I think works for me personally right now is through a publicist that we have. We get requests on a fairly regular basis, and I really enjoy those because I get to answer a question. Oftentimes they're pretty timely. They are highly relevant for what we're doing. And it's not such an intensive time commitment for me to respond that it's easy to do and it puts us in the press in a very small way. But we are seen as not necessarily authorities, but we are designers that are continually quoted for having opinions about what the next trend is, what's a great color for a white room or what's a great lighting fixture in a small setting. So things like that, we start being viewed as, I guess the word is authority on this topic or in the design world. So I recommend designers do those quote requests as often as they can.
- [45:08]
Caitlin Peterson
Is there any one thing that makes you feel like it's moved the needle, or is it really just sort of additive, like all of those efforts combining together?
- [45:20]
Jean Liu
I've said this too in the past. My studio looks noticeably different today than it did before when I hired a publicist. So I felt like we were doing this work, but nobody necessarily outside of my immediate community knew about it until I got a publicist on board. And so she was able to put me in contact with, expose me to the right people, the right publications, the right opportunities and events to attend. And so that's when I feel like it really started to change.
- [46:06]
Caitlin Peterson
How do you know when you're ready for an investment like that? Is there a possibility of sort of investing in that too early?
- [46:17]
Jean Liu
Yes, I think so. I mean, and by the way, if we're sequencing, I think you, anybody who's thinking about this should hire a publicist first before they try to tackle Kips Bay. And they certainly have a publicist through Kips Bay. I would not hire a publicist if you don't have even a small body of high quality portfolio images of projects. I would think publicists can do a lot with images and a lot, even if it's not there's not a handful of images, but they need something to work with. We are, after all, a visual.
- [46:57]
Caitlin Peterson
Right, Right. You need more than a portrait.
- [47:01]
Jean Liu
Yes.
- [47:03]
Caitlin Peterson
Is there anything that you were excited to talk about today that I haven't asked you about?
- [47:11]
Jean Liu
I think it's really important, especially when you get to a point in your career where we're talking about hugely, insanely large numbers and, you know, thousands of dollars for little, little things. And I think there's plenty of opportunity to lose perspective on what's important. And so I am on the board at Dwell with dignity, and it continues to be an important part of what we do. I've sort of dragged my poor studio kicking and screaming, not because they don't want to, but because the time is kind of limited into doing this dollhouse for La Petite Maison in Houston, which raises money for underserved families in Houston. So I think there's always an element of trying to give back that I want to instill into the people that work with me day and day out. Not only is it a good thing to do, but I think it's probably the healthiest way to keep perspective of what we're doing as a job. Especially when you have clients with limitless budgets.
- [48:15]
Caitlin Peterson
Yeah. Do you talk about that philanthropic component with your clients?
- [48:21]
Jean Liu
Not really. I mean, when it makes sense. For example, we had a client come in and by the way, this dollhouse is not a dollhouse. If anyone is listening from my dollhouse committee, it's like a doll estate.
- [48:35]
Caitlin Peterson
It's not like the four rooms with the. Yeah. With the attic.
- [48:38]
Jean Liu
No. It's so big. It took over two decks. So it comes up naturally. But otherwise I don't know that it comes into conversation with my clients.
- [48:51]
Caitlin Peterson
It's more internal.
- [48:53]
Jean Liu
Yeah. It's what we do for ourselves and what we do because we feel call to do it. But it's not really a topic that we have any reason to bring to our clients attention. I encourage young designers to always find a way in some small way to give a little time back, do something that's pro bono for your industry and for the community that you live and work in.
- [49:19]
Caitlin Peterson
What are some of the biggest industry shifts that you've seen in general that impact the way you work?
- [49:27]
Jean Liu
I think people are really tired of talking about COVID but it has forever, it feels like forever changed how we navigate specifying furniture, talking to clients, furniture. I just think that even in 2024, two years out of this thing, our lead times in our supply chain still are not back to normal. And it's hard. And my clients, as great as they are, sometimes don't care that things take longer than they should. And I think the other thing we are still living is that there are some people that we relied on heavily as trades that are no longer doing this because of the pandemic. And it's this delicate ecosystem that I don't think think we've really spent enough time highlighting with our clients really disturbed. And we're not still. We're not completely back to normal yet.
- [50:27]
Caitlin Peterson
Is that in terms of like, tradespeople who are truly executing some of the like, most kind of handcrafted elements of a job or.
- [50:35]
Jean Liu
Yes. You know, we work with very high end furniture makers, upholsterers. And I feel like they were so strapped personally, professionally, they were grappling with this pandemic in ways that we didn't even begin to understand. And it affected their ability to deliver high quality pieces of furniture on time. And I don't really feel like clients gave as much grace as I would have hoped. And so I've started talking about the work that we do, being with people who are so artisanal that the art means that the art in that word means you may not get it in the timeframe you want it, I may not. Time frame, I want it. So if that's not something that feels palatable, then we need to not be looking to have this be part of the program. Yeah.
- [51:35]
Caitlin Peterson
Is that a conversation clients are open to? Like, is there room for education there? And they come around, or does that feel like a lost cause? In some ways it does.
- [51:45]
Jean Liu
It feels a little like a lost cause because I think when on the beginning they might say they're okay with it, that when the rubber hits the road and it's time to remind them of the conversation, they've already experienced so many other delays that they're just exasperated. At least that's been our experience.
- [52:03]
Caitlin Peterson
Like construction delays, like things not even related to you?
- [52:07]
Jean Liu
Correct.
- [52:07]
Caitlin Peterson
I feel like there's like a. That's like the downside of being last in the process. Sometimes you end up very much the punching bag for the frustrations of every other phase.
- [52:19]
Jean Liu
Well, and also it's hard to be the punching bag when we have no control over that workroom or that trait, despite our understanding of what's going on with them personally or professionally. And it's so. It's so. Or our experience with it has been so pervasive. It's really challenging me to think about the future of our business and how we go about it.
- [52:44]
Caitlin Peterson
What would change for you?
- [52:46]
Jean Liu
I haven't talked about this publicly much, but I'm pursuing a scenario in which I am the client because it's when I am frustrated with a wallpaper hanger who doesn't show up. But it's another thing to have to call your client and tell that. Tell them that the wallpaper hanger didn't show up. And by the way, they say they can't come for another two weeks. So there's a project in the works where I'm looking at developing my own homes and trying to take my own design team and selling finished products of real estate.
- [53:24]
Caitlin Peterson
Like finish.
- [53:25]
Jean Liu
Like fully furnished, potentially.
- [53:28]
Caitlin Peterson
That's amazing.
- [53:30]
Jean Liu
Well, it sounds amazing. It could be quite challenging. We're still navigating all of the potential pitfalls and what that looks like, but I think it's a reaction and it's a response to the way I see the landscape of this industry today and just the hiccups and still the challenges we face.
- [53:51]
Caitlin Peterson
Well, I was going to ask you where you see opportunity when you look ahead, but is that the answer?
- [53:57]
Jean Liu
I do, because I had this funny thing happen. Well, not funny. I see it more and more. We had some clients who. They didn't mean to flip their houses, but they built a house, and not only did they sell it, they sold it furnished.
- [54:12]
Caitlin Peterson
Oh.
- [54:13]
Jean Liu
Started happening more than once. And so it made me wonder if there's actually a desire out there for people who can literally just have turnkey. When you buy the house, you literally buy. You can move in with just your things, because it happened a couple, few times here. And so then I wondered, what if the intent from the beginning is for that product to be put out there? Is there enough of an audience for that?
- [54:45]
Caitlin Peterson
What is the. I have so many questions about, like, the demographic or the psychographic of the client who buys the whole thing furnished.
- [54:53]
Jean Liu
They're very busy people. They have multiple homes. And I think when they're in whatever home they're in, they just want to be spending their time enjoying it and not worried about, oh, but this room's not done, and we don't have silverware for this kitchen. And we've got to still call someone in to do the TVs.
- [55:16]
Caitlin Peterson
Is there an element in that model of customization that could happen once they've closed?
- [55:21]
Jean Liu
Sure. I mean, I think that's the piece that we're toying with now. How far, if we go forward with this model, do we want to take it? So we'll see. I certainly don't have it all figured out yet.
- [55:36]
Caitlin Peterson
What does success look like for you today?
- [55:41]
Jean Liu
Being proud of the work, being able to financially support myself in the studio, and having enough time to enjoy the things outside of work, which I feel like we haven't had much of over the last two years. So that success, that last piece, is what I'm working on.
- [56:07]
Caitlin Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Before you go, if you'd like to keep up up with the latest design industry news, more great podcasts, check out new products or browse job openings. Head on over to businessofhome.com if you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share. I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@tradetalesusnessofhome.com finally, if you're enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. Trade Tales is produced by by me, Caitlin Peterson with Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you again in two weeks.