← Trade Tales
Trade Tales
Lilse McKenna on building client confidence
00:58:31
Lilse McKenna on the value of using hand drawn floorplans and elevations to present her ideas, why she’s turned to Substack as a creative outlet, and how she uses her sessions on The Expert to keep her problem-solving skills sharp.
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- [00:03]
Lil Smkenna
We're really clear from the outset about the fact that we are probably the people on the project who are most dedicated to the final version of their home. So it matters so much more to us than anybody else working on the project that that outlet goes in the right place and is half switched as we asked for it to be. Even like the most organized and end game focused contractor doesn't have as much skin in that game as we do.
- [00:34]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Hi, I'm Kaitlyn Peterson, the editor in Chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales, where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm.
- [00:48]
Caroline Burke
My hope is that you hear your.
- [00:50]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Own why echoed in these stories, or an idea that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone.
- [01:01]
Caroline Burke
My guest today is a designer who.
- [01:03]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Honed her craft under some of New York's top talents, learning systems and processes as well as style and design from some of the industry's brightest minds. As the leader of her own firm, she tells me how she helps clients make decisions and how she's leaving room for her own creativity to run wild.
- [01:23]
Caroline Burke
I can't wait to share it with.
- [01:24]
Kaitlyn Peterson
You, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. This podcast is brought to you by June Laloy June Laloy is a total home furnishings destination from the family behind Laloy Rugs, and it recently celebrated its first birthday. Over the past year, June Laloy has brought us into the world of imaginative design, artisan craft and thoughtful curation across rugs, furniture, lighting, decor and more. With decades of Laloy Rugs expertise behind them, the team's trade program provides a seamless experience with special pricing and priority support for designers. Visit junelloy.com to explore the collection and sign up for a trade account today. That's J-O-O-N L O L-O I.com for designers who expect excellence at every touch point, Universal Furniture offers a level of partnership that feels truly elevated. Their B2B program unlocks access to beautifully crafted home furnishings, from case codes and upholstery to outdoor and decor. Universal is a true whole home resource, and best of all, it offers exclusive designer pricing. With no annual minimums. You can enjoy free shipping to your receiver, but there's also White glove service available when the moment calls for it. Upholstery is offered in. Com and performance fabrics, but there's also an array of pieces ready to ship. Your vision never has to wait, and with a high point showroom open by appointment all year long, as well as a dedicated design concierge, Universal ensures that every project receives the luxury of personal attention that you deserve.
- [03:24]
Lil Smkenna
I just always was into interior design. And as much as a kid could be into interior design, my grandmother was really into it. She read every Shelter magazine cover to cover every month. My mom was really supportive of me being into it. She let me pick things for our house when I was growing up. So I think I always sort of had this in the back of my mind, but I didn't know how you got into it. As I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, I was taking the LSATs to go to law school. And I had a stack of Shelter magazines next to me that I would, when I took a study break, read those. And I just sort of decided in that process, there's this whole industry. Why wouldn't I try to do that before I spend all this money to go to law school if that's what I'm doing for fun? In between practice tests, that's Lil Smkenna.
- [04:19]
Kaitlyn Peterson
She set her sights on getting her foot in the door of the design industry and gave herself a tight timeline to figure it out.
- [04:26]
Lil Smkenna
I just cold called my favorite designer and asked if she needed any help. And at that time, we all did unpaid internships. So I took that and did. And then I got a job with Lindsay Coral Harper. So I was able to score a job being her assistant, which I did for, I think around four years. And then I got a job with Markham Roberts and got to work for him for a few years after that.
- [04:56]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Lil's thrived in each role, but she knew that having her own name on the door was the secret to creative freedom. Eventually, an opportunity that was too good to pass up would push her toward entrepreneurship.
- [05:10]
Lil Smkenna
A family friend called me sort of out of the blue. They had purchased a house that had been done by Bunny Williams. They just wanted to update a few things, like make a few things feel more like them than like the previous owners. I'm a total design nerd. So I had been collecting Bunny's books my whole life, so I recognized the house instantly. It was one that had been featured in books of hers, and I was thrilled to be able to help them.
- [05:35]
Kaitlyn Peterson
In 2017, will use that project to launch her own firm. I wanted to talk to her about the value of using hand drawn floor plans and elevations to present her ideas, why she's turned to substack as a creative outlet, and how she uses her sessions on the expert to keep her problem solving skills sharp.
- [05:55]
Caroline Burke
What were the early challenges launching your own business? You know, you had this meaty project, but kind of where were you looking for the next job? What else do you do?
- [06:06]
Lil Smkenna
Like, you.
- [06:06]
Caroline Burke
You start with this nugget of work, but there's also so much more work to lay the foundation for a business. For a business. Yeah. How did you start to tackle that?
- [06:16]
Lil Smkenna
I think I was really lucky that I. Because I knew that ultimately I wanted to. To start my own business. I had been saving towards needing to sort of self fund.
- [06:27]
Caroline Burke
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [06:28]
Lil Smkenna
While I built that business. So I really was really lucky that I had been doing that. I had that end game in mind the whole time. And then I think also I got really lucky that Instagram existed when I started business, because I was able to reach a lot of potential clients through that. And I also had built a network in New York where I knew designers who were just a bit older than me and had started their own businesses. And I would go to parties and see them there. And so when I launched my own business, I was able to say to them, you know, if there's anything you don't want to take, I'm building my business, so I would love to take, you know, that project. So I got projects from designers who were more established than I was at that time.
- [07:13]
Caroline Burke
Was all of that networking also strategic? Kind of like, oh, these folks will have things to pass on to me someday. Or was that just like a really healthy byproduct sort of being out and about in the design scene?
- [07:24]
Lil Smkenna
I think I just have always been really enthusiastic about this job. So I. It wasn't like, oh, strategically I'll make friends with those older designers. I just really, truly was inspired by them. So I always was just voicing that to someone, which I think is sort of an underrated thing you can do for your career. Really early on is I would send an email or a text if someone got a story published and just say, you know, this is incredible. I'm showing it to all the girls in my office. We all love it. Congratulations. And I think what people don't necessarily know from the outside that I sort of learned early on is it's so exciting to get something published and you do get feedback, but it's sort of a slow roll. And that day that it comes out, especially when print was such a big deal at that time, that day that it comes out, it's sort of like anticlimactic. You're so excited, but it's not like flowers show up at your office or anything. So I always just made a point to make sure to tell people how impressed I was with what they were building.
- [08:30]
Caroline Burke
What else did it take in the early days to really get the business off the ground? So you got early jobs kind of coming in as referrals, but. Or when did you start to feel like, okay, this has momentum?
- [08:41]
Lil Smkenna
Yeah, I think, you know, I think the entrepreneurial journey is so many ups and downs. It's like a roller coaster ride where you. It feels real. It feels real like it's working. And then all of a sudden you're question, anything is working. I think the first time I got a full house that really felt like, okay, this is really going to work. And it was with a client who understood completing the vision. That was really the first time that I thought, okay, I think I'm actually going to be able to make this work. I'm going to be able to photograph something. I'm going to be able to have a portfolio that feels real.
- [09:18]
Caroline Burke
How long did it take to get to that job?
- [09:20]
Lil Smkenna
I think it only took a few months. I was really, I was really lucky. I also really shared as much as I could on Instagram.
- [09:29]
Caroline Burke
What were you sharing?
- [09:30]
Lil Smkenna
I was sharing like anything I could. I was sharing any events I was going to. I was sharing schemes. You know, I. If, even if it was schemes that weren't necessarily going to be selected, if I thought something was really beautiful, I would share it. I was just sharing as much as I could to try to get my aesthetic across. And I think even years later, I'll have someone mention something to me that I think, you know, that's crazy. I, I didn't realize sharing those images from that auction and, and little anecdote about why those were significant to me would really resonate with people in that way. But there is a part of just sharing yourself that helps when you're trying to build a business that is so aesthetic and, you know, sentimentality based.
- [10:18]
Caroline Burke
Was it difficult in the beginning to sort of reorient your work to your esthetic or to find sort of the, the design truth that you wanted to tell versus sort of the, the visual narrative that you'd been working in at these other firms?
- [10:37]
Lil Smkenna
I think it can be so hard to parse that. And everybody, we all should admit how influenced we are by the people we work for. Hopefully if you're working for someone, it's because you' enamored of their work, so you will be influenced by them. I certainly was influenced heavily by Markham and still am. So I want to def. I definitely want to say that. But I also think early on I was excited to share things that were specific to me. I remember going to an auction preview, I think it was at Christie's, and there were some Jean Duffy paintings there, which my grandmother had collected a couple of his paintings, and he's sort of like the lesser known brother of Raoul Dufy. And I had posted something about that, about how they were sentimental to me because my grandmother had loved his work and so it really reminded me of her houses. And that really resonated with a couple of people who I spoke to, who even if we didn't end up working on the project, that first project together, were still friends because they reached out to me and they said, oh, my family collects his paintings as well. And it really resonated with me that you shared that. And it's such a small thing to just take that photo and, and put up that post or that story or whatever it was at that time that you don't really realize, oh, that might be the thread that connects you to someone and maybe it will turn into a project or today, or maybe it will, you know, in 15 years. But either way, you've. You've reached someone just by sharing something of your own.
- [12:14]
Caroline Burke
What was your path to sort of growing your business and figuring out what systems you wanted to use, what processes you wanted to follow, how you wanted to build a team around you? When did those things start to fall into place?
- [12:28]
Lil Smkenna
I think I always was really interested in systems and organization of the business. So I learned a ton from Markham about that because he's super organized and he has a great team. And so of course, at first you can't afford a team, right? So at first I was doing everything and I was working constantly and it worked for my life. At that time, it was totally fine and I was more than happy to do it. But once I had enough work that I sort of reached that tipping point, which I think every designer reaches, where you can't really maintain client communications, doing all the creative work and vendor communications to make sure you're not dropping any balls, you've got to bring someone on. So first I brought on an assistant to say, okay, you do vendor communications, because that's sort of the first thing that you can pass off, you know, the, the most easily. And then when I could afford to, I hired someone who could be a great client communicator as well and do that kind of communication. Once we were past the creative phase of the project, and that way I could really be in the weeds with the creative and with the architecture, which is. Is sort of the bigger role of the creative lead on a project that's large.
- [13:49]
Caroline Burke
How do you explain that to clients? Or is there a lot of work you have to do to kind of help them understand that you'll be handing them off in some ways at some point in the project?
- [14:00]
Lil Smkenna
I always explain from the outset because I want people to understand how we work so that they don't feel like they're being sort of passed to my team member, because that's not. It's really not what's happening. I'm still involved heavily. It's more just that, you know, my major role is to make sure that the vision that we've agreed on comes to life. And so often that means that it's more important that I spend my time studying the drawings than saying, hey, we haven't picked this chair. You know, Lilz likes this one. What do you think? Getting that message out takes more time than people realize, I think, because we need to give the client context for the decision that they're making, and that's its own sort of process. So from the very beginning, from the first phone call we have, I explain, this is how my team works. I do all of the creative work, and then I have a project manager and an assistant, a design assistant. And together they do all of the execution of the ordering and of sort of firming up any of the final details. So they're getting information on the creative from me, and then they're passing that along to whomever they need to. I'm really clear from the outset, you're going to be working with all of us, and you're going to get emails from all of us, and there'll be points in the project where you hear much more from my project manager than you do from me, just because of the nature of where we are in the project. And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean I'm not doing a ton of work on the back end for that creatively, for her to get those. That information to pass along to you, it's more of just making sure that the communication continues to flow and that the right people have the answers when they need them. And if, since she's placing all the orders, she's the one who really needs that information in a timely manner so that she can get the order placed based on your feedback.
- [15:55]
Caroline Burke
What do clients misunderstand the most about the creative process? And sort of how are you Constantly rerouting them to keep them in lockstep with your design process.
- [16:07]
Lil Smkenna
Oh, it's so client specific, I think, because some people have done a million projects and some people have never done a project. That said, there is a little bit of a disconnect between sort of the dream and the timeline. So, you know, I think the dream is that you can be working on the creative forever, and the dream timeline is that this will be done in nine to 12 months. Right. And so I think sort of managing expectations around, like, how are we going to make both of those things possible for you? Can be. Is really important from the outset. So from the outset, I talk about client inputs and getting their inspiration from them and what timeline they want. Because our creative work can only start after we have all of that information from them. Because if they haven't had time to figure out what they want their house to look like or if, or what they love, then we can't really start designing because we don't have enough information to go off of, to present what we think, how we can interpret that for them. Right. So we kind of manage it by saying, okay, do you need two weeks to get all of your inspiration together? Do you need a month to get all of your inspiration together? Do we want to have a few meetings to discuss your inspiration and so that will put us into a month of client inputs, or do you think what you have so far, what you've already got on your Pinterest boards and, you know, in the books that you've been reading, do you think that's all ready to go and buttoned up so that we can start the timeline tomorrow for the creative part that we need to do?
- [17:57]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Can you walk me through what that.
- [17:58]
Caroline Burke
Creative phase is for you and your team?
- [18:01]
Lil Smkenna
First, I'm doing a big download of anything that the clients have told me, anything I've seen of their existing house, how they dress, where they go on vacation, all of that stuff that's sort of inputs for me creatively of what they're drawn to naturally. And then, of course, Pinterest boards, favorite houses, favorite design books, whatever it might be. And then I do the furniture plans, which I do by hand, because I find that that really prompts me to think as carefully as I can about the placement of everything and about the flow of the space and the scale of everything. And then I'll do some shopping, usually some, you know, finding some inspiration for all of the furniture throughout. And then I'll. Once I've got an idea of what I'm Doing for all of the furniture. I'll draw elevations by hand if we need to, and pull together a presentation for them, which might be slides, like a Google Slides, or it might be physical tear sheets, sort of client dependent. If I think they, they'll be better with a big spread out, you know, share sheets or if I think they.
- [19:13]
Caroline Burke
Wait, what's the tell for that?
- [19:15]
Lil Smkenna
I think some clients, especially younger clients, are really used to consuming a lot of information on a screen and some clients would rather hold a photo in their hand, you know, hold a sheet in their hand and want to meet you, you know, in the space. Some of our younger clients are so busy that they, they want to have a presentation online, entirely online, rather than being in the space. And so if we can go in person and have printed photos and just have the images online as backups for if we need to show them a detail or something, that's my preferred way to do it. But if somebody needs us to do it all online, we're already putting together the slides because that's our internal reference for the project as well. But seeing fabrics and things, we have to ship it to them for the presentation too. So that's why it's. I prefer to do it in person if we can, but it's just totally dependent on what a client's schedule will allow and what they prefer.
- [20:11]
Caroline Burke
Is the outcome different if you present either way?
- [20:15]
Lil Smkenna
You know, that's such a good question. I think that there is. The outcome is different only if someone is going, is sort of someone who's going to second guess things anyway.
- [20:28]
Caroline Burke
Right.
- [20:28]
Lil Smkenna
You know, like if we have somebody who says, like, I trust you entirely, we could present to them in any number of ways and it wouldn't really matter because they trust the vision. If you have somebody who is going to do that stutter step that happens, you know, right as the orders are starting to get placed, there's really not much you can do to prevent that other than telling them, you know, everybody goes through that anxiety moment of wow, we're spending a ton of money and we're ordering a ton of stuff like am I, am I really good with this? And so I think it's really the role of the designer to have conviction around the vision, to be able to talk them off that ledge if they get there. And I think only just consistency of having done this a million times gets you past that and knowing if you just trust the vision, it will be good, it'll be great.
- [21:20]
Caroline Burke
You very casually breezed over the fact that you draw all of these floor plans and ultimately elevations by hand. But I've seen them. They are beautiful. And I wonder, is that for you? Is that mostly about your creative process, or is there also a benefit to not digitizing? This step in helping clients understand the final outcome of these documents, I think it's.
- [21:48]
Lil Smkenna
For me, it's the best thing for everyone. It's super helpful for my team. When we go to order, the sofa that I have already drawn, the arm height, it's there on the paper. So it's. In some ways, it's really beneficial for my team and really efficient. It's also, I think, beneficial for the clients in a different way than it would be if we were doing it digitally, because I think we're all really used to seeing things perfectly digitally mapped out on a computer. Now at this point, that's sort of how we hope our house will look by the time it gets installed. But as we all know, these are soft furnishings. Everything is 3D. It doesn't really look like that. So to my mind, the hand drawings are a little closer almost to what it will ultimately look like, because there's that sort of softness. There's maybe a little imperfection, which I think part of our job as designers is sort of constantly reminding our clients that everything in their house has been touched by so many hands, and there will probably be imperfections. And if there aren't, that honestly means something was made in a factory and not as well as if it had been made by hand. So I think it's sort of setting our clients up for that and saying, you know, this is. This is a much more creative, collaborative thing than just printing out something that was digitally created.
- [23:19]
Caroline Burke
Do you ever then digitize those drawings?
- [23:22]
Lil Smkenna
Yes. So we will do it for, for example, the heights of sconces. We will have our architectural designer on our team put that into CAD and place them just so that we can give the contractor exact measurements for the height off the floor, for example, for something. Because when I'm drawing it, you know, we all have, like, a left. Like, when you draw something on the left, it might look a little different from when you draw something on the right side of the sheet. And so sometimes there'll be a discrepancy, and my team will say, you know, you have it an inch off or 2 inches off, you know, to scale. So which height do you want to do? And so we'll digitize that so that it's more perfect.
- [24:03]
Caroline Burke
Yeah, yeah.
- [24:04]
Lil Smkenna
And then we'll find out the floor is not level. And so it Isn't perfect in real life anyway.
- [24:08]
Caroline Burke
But yeah, Is that true for, like, a bathroom or a kitchen as well?
- [24:11]
Lil Smkenna
Yes, for kitchens, we definitely put all of it into cad. I usually hand sketch it again first to sort out where do I want open shelving, where do I want hooks or whatever it may be. It's easier for me to hand sketch it first. And then we will put it into cad. Especially when you're getting down to, like, the nitty gritty of how large are the styles and rails and all of that. That needs CAD drawing. The reason I say clear my day, I'm sitting down and doing the furniture plans for that house is because I want to know exactly where that chair should go. And so probably for my team, that makes it all a bit rigid. But I find that if I don't know for sure, then nobody knows for sure.
- [25:02]
Caroline Burke
How are you approaching that presentation?
- [25:05]
Lil Smkenna
So usually there are a few rooms that I have some pretty strong feelings about, you know, how it should be laid out, what the color should be like. The space is sort of dictating some of that to my mind. And then we'll have a couple rooms where I'll say, you know, we could do this on the walls, or we could do this, and I'll bring two options or three options, and we can talk it through with the client and sort it out. But I would say that for the most part, I have the vision fleshed out before we get there. And again, I think that's about just having something cohesively done and also having the client feel like they're getting what they paid for. They're paying for a vision. They're paying for something in totality to completion. And so I feel it's my responsibility to show up with that information in as much as I can. And then, especially if I feel like the client, I don't know exactly which way the client will lean on something, then I'll bring those options and say, I don't know if you want to go for a stronger color here or if you want to keep it lighter for these reasons. So we have these options for you.
- [26:18]
Kaitlyn Peterson
When your studio standard is uncompromising, quality universal furniture becomes an easy, indispensable resource. The Company's designer focused B2B platform provides seamless access to refined indoor and outdoor home furnishings alongside a sophisticated selection of ready to ship and special order upholstery. Much of the line is in stock and ready to ship in time for quick installs. There's also com and build your own programs available so that you have the option to tailor each piece to fit your vision. And Universal offers no order minimums, exclusive trade pricing, volume discounts and complimentary shipping to your receiver, as well as white glove service options. Explore Universal's collections privately in the company's showroom all year round, and enjoy attentive support through its design concierge service. A true luxury partnership for the modern designer.
- [27:16]
Caroline Burke
What is the ideal outcome of that presentation? You're doing the whole house or kind of like a big collection of spaces. What do you want to walk away with?
- [27:26]
Lil Smkenna
A plan for what we're ordering?
- [27:28]
Caroline Burke
Okay, the goal is like, we're going to sit down one time and get to a yes.
- [27:32]
Lil Smkenna
Yeah, that's my goal and that. And we have been so lucky in that we often do get that sign off and do get to order everything that we presented. And that is ideal for everybody because it keeps you on site schedule to keep moving forward. I think people think that the sort of slowest part of the process is getting the design done, but really the slowest part is getting everything made.
- [28:01]
Caroline Burke
You used a really fun word for that sort of like step backwards that people take that sort of that moment right on the precipice. Stutter step. Yes. That moment when people are right on the precipice of, you know, saying yes, writing a check, being all in on ordering. What is the secret to kind of helping them feel so confident in the decisions that they're making?
- [28:23]
Lil Smkenna
So I think actually the stutter stuff happens later, more often. It's because. Because we. I think it's partially because of how we structure projects. So because we get so much sign off in after one meeting, it's typically as we get sort of closer, you know, maybe they've paid the first proposal and now we're getting into the second round of proposals or something that people start to feel like, oh, wow, we really committed.
- [28:48]
Caroline Burke
This is super real.
- [28:49]
Lil Smkenna
Yeah, this is super real and gonna be really real. And did I like that wallpaper? And again, I really think it's about having conviction and about being totally bought in on your own vision. So for me, I always have reasons behind what I've selected and how we landed where we are. And if I'm really on top of my game, I'm taking notes on what those reasons are just for when, as I'm, as I'm designing it, just so that when the questions pop up at that moment of anxiety, I can calm them down with just the knowledge that this really has been thought through and it really was based on all of the information that you gave us from the outset, because it really is part of the natural course of the project. So I don't want anybody to feel like this has never happened to anybody else. So we try to be very vocal with them, that this is a natural portion of the project. It has natural highs and lows. They're long, big projects. So there's a part where it feels like nothing is getting done and all you're doing is writing checks, and that's where you start to freak out. And that's normal. And so just trust that this has all been thought through, it's all been drawn to scale. It's all been envisioned by our team as a total package. And if we start to unravel that total package, you're going to end up with something else. It might still be great, but we can't guarantee that it's going to be that vision that we had from the outset. So we just know that if we start to pull the threads, we really are sort of entering into a totally new design, and it's not what we'd all agreed on at that first meeting.
- [30:35]
Caroline Burke
You used some interesting video tools. How does that sort of augment those conversations with clients along the way?
- [30:43]
Lil Smkenna
When we do that first presentation, we might not have every single piece of furniture selected or every, you know, trim or fabric. And some clients don't need to see every trim. They kind of give us a sign off, you don't need to show us every single trim. And some want to see them all. And so then after we're done with that presentation, any new information that we're sending them, we do it with a loom video and a Google Slide deck so that we can bring them, basically, we need to bring them back into the context of that design, which they were fully in mentally when we were at the presentation, but which they've now probably mostly forgotten, unless they've been studying that slide deck every night, you know, before they go to bed. So. So we bring them back through that slide deck and then present that chair. So if it's a chair for the living room, we're going to talk through what's happening around that chair in the living room, what are the fabrics and why we think this is the right chair. And we started doing that because we found that it was difficult to convey all of that in an email. The emails were getting really long and nobody wants to sit through them.
- [31:48]
Caroline Burke
No one reads.
- [31:50]
Lil Smkenna
No one reads anymore. And it felt silly to schedule a whole zoom call to talk about one chair. And we Might lose the chair. We can't get it. You know, we might have it on hold. We might not be able to get it if we can't get everybody on the same zoom call. So we, I learned about loom videos, which was, I learned about it in the context of teaching people your processes in your office. But it works for this as well because we're able to walk through a digital presentation and give them sort of our take on why this chair works. And then we can give them a little Google survey that they can fill out to say approved or not approved. And this is why. And they have to write something into this space as to why not. And I think that serves everyone honestly, because if it's a no, we need, we do need to know why. And we've now, most likely we're now, by the time we're presenting this chair, you know, we're now getting into that anxiety laden period where it can be easy to just start putting up blockers and saying, I don't know why, but that chair is not approved and we can't continue the conversation from there. And you're going to be mad that you're missing a chair when we get to the installation. So we have to at least keep the conversation moving as to why not this chair.
- [33:12]
Kaitlyn Peterson
What is the actual experience of that.
- [33:14]
Caroline Burke
Loom video for the client in terms.
- [33:16]
Lil Smkenna
Of like, physically, what is it? They open up an email, it says, hey, we've picked a chair for here, we want to show it to you. Click this link and it'll show you the video and then click this link and you can fill out the survey. So to me, we're all consuming media all day long and especially now, we know short form video. To me, I'm always hopeful that for our clients it'll be such a nice way to make a decision. They just get to visit with us for a minute without having to put it on their calendar at their own pace. They can watch it, they can rewatch it if they want to. If they didn't catch something, pause it, take a screenshot if they want to do it on their laptop, you know, whatever they want to do to take in that information and then on their time they can respond to the survey. You know, it takes a little while for our team to make videos, honestly. So in terms of like, has it sped things up? Maybe, maybe not, I think, but I do think that it has helped us find clarity. You know, before everybody was always online and shopping online and scrolling Instagram and seeing images of projects all day long. There used to be a little bit more freedom for the designer to make decisions on their own, and now, just as a result, I think of how much information everyone has all the time. It feels like we need to get full sign off on everything that goes into the house. So to bridge that gap, you know, it took a while for me to find this technology, so it was tricky. We'd be like, saving. We'd be saving a bunch of decisions for a zoom call, and then we might lose a hold. We might be slowing something down inadvertently. Like, it was tricky to nail down how to get that information across and then get all of the approvals. So this has just been so helpful for us in that it keeps things cruising. Even if we don't have six different things to go over on a call, we just have one chair to show you. It helps keep that moving to be successful.
- [35:11]
Caroline Burke
Getting that presentation to end with sort of a big yes and a, you know, a green light to order. You said you've got the budget really firmly established at the beginning, and also that client's expectation of sort of level of completion. Can you talk a little bit about how you're priming a client to understand the decision making process for both of those things?
- [35:33]
Lil Smkenna
Yeah. So when we are sort of getting started on a project, I like to get any inspiration they've already found, or I like to find out, you know, from our portfolio, what is. What are your favorite projects, why are we here? And if we can get that information, then we can say, okay, we know how big your house is. We know what it costs per square foot to accomplish that in that house, or we can guess what it. What it costs per square foot for. For that other designer to accomplish that. And we can put together an estimate of what it will cost to get there and with how many rooms. We're pretty flexible on the size of the project, but we prefer, you know, a certain scope. And if we can achieve that level of design within that amount of space, then we're all on the same page and we can say, okay, we're agreed on that price per square foot, so we can move forward with designing it towards that. And based on the goals you've given us and based on the inspiration you've given us, I think if you can get everybody aligned in that way from the outset, you can move quicker through the approval process, because everybody knows we're on the same page and we just want to get to you living in that house.
- [36:51]
Caroline Burke
What is the sticking point for you when it comes to money? Like, are There budget conversations that are harder for you than others, or is this a pretty comfortable framework to establish as sort of the foundation of a project?
- [37:05]
Lil Smkenna
I think the hardest conversation is when you know someone hasn't done a project of this scale before. And so you're going to be the first person to tip them off about how expensive all this is, because it is all so crazy expensive that if I were on the other end of it, especially at my age right now, I would like my jaw would be on the floor. So I can sympathize with that and understand that the numbers sound crazy. You know, when you get the initial call from the client and they want to know, how much is this going to cost? We just bought this big dream house of ours, and you're starting to do the numbers on, like, the square footage. I might be the one who tells them. And there might be other people who say, well, we don't really know what it's going to cost. Why don't you, you know, get started with us and we'll let you know when we know. Which is also valid. If some people. You don't really always know, but I can get an understanding from what they're looking, which images they're looking at of how much it's going to be. And so I'm always honest about it because I just don't think it serves anybody to not be honest. But that's the hardest kind of conversation within it for sure. Like, I definitely get anxious before I have to give someone the price per script, but especially if they haven't done this kind of project before.
- [38:26]
Caroline Burke
Yeah. Is the price per square foot, Is that just for the furnishings or how are you talking also about what it costs to work with your firm?
- [38:33]
Lil Smkenna
So we try to give an estimate for time as well, but really, when we're doing the price per square foot, we try to do furnishings, and then we have sort of a percentage that we'll put in for the additional costs, which is also unusual and also could lose us a project if someone else is maybe not putting in that percentage for, you know, shipping and messengers and all the other things. FedEx, all the other things that really make the project get the project to completion. Yeah, that's. It's an additional percentage. That's nobody's favorite line item. So when I first started out, I was doing fees. Now I do hourly. And the reason is that I do a ton of architectural design. And so we really. We really end up, like I said, you know, we design kitchens and bathrooms all the time. And so that, that and project management, like working with the contractors, which we often also do the project management of the contractors. Those can be so difficult to predict what the time commitment is going to be. Since often, you know, we're often working with a contractor we've never worked with before, it's pretty unusual that we get to work with a contractor twice. And so we've also tested models of switching back to fees. But I think it just gets to be very difficult to estimate it around the architecture and the. And the contracting. It's just almost impossible. So anyway, we have landed back at an hourly after dabbling and trying to do fees just because it was so just getting too tricky to really estimate.
- [40:15]
Kaitlyn Peterson
And our clients comfortable with that.
- [40:17]
Caroline Burke
Do they understand the full scope of what you're working on and why that's sort of an essential way to bill for the work they do?
- [40:25]
Lil Smkenna
I think all of our clients, you know, we get feedback that they can see how involved we are in every step of the project. So I think if we were charging those, if we were charging them and they didn't fully understand how involved we really are, that would be a different conversation. But because they can see how involved we are and they can see how much we care about every inch of the project, I think they can understand that. And we also are able to look back. I mean, it's the same thing with the price per square foot. We're able to look back at data from previous projects and say, we think you're going to land around like this much per month, but we really can't guarantee anything because we don't know, you know, the team yet.
- [41:08]
Caroline Burke
How do you communicate kind of your level of involvement and the level of care to a client in a way that really demonstrates that investment and competence, but doesn't kind of bog them down or bring them in too often. How are you striking that balance?
- [41:26]
Lil Smkenna
That's such a good question. Because sometimes it is really tricky because they're left off of emails intentionally. We're trying to get it done behind the scenes so that they don't get bogged down. You know, we don't want them to have to spend as much time as we are per day reading through these emails. So it can be a tricky thing to communicate. But I think our clients really see it because they see the amount of energy we're putting into the details from the outset. And we're really clear from the outset about the fact that we are probably the people on the project who are most dedicated to the final version of their home so we're really dedicated to that final vision. So it matters so much more to us than anybody else working on the project that that outlet for the sofa lamps goes in the right place and is half switched as we asked for it to be. There really isn't anybody else on the project who even like the most organized and like end game focused contractor doesn't have as much skin in that game as we do. So we. I think they know that from the outset, just based on conversations we have. I'm often really, really verbal about, like I'm really thankful to them about bringing us on when they did. If they bring us on before the construction starts, I always am really thankful to them and explain to them why it's so important that they did that, especially with my team, because we are really in the weeds with the contractor on, you know, how are we going to put the blocking in the wall for these, these tables that we bought that are wall mounted? How are we gonna, are we gonna make sure that the, you know, even a toilet paper roll needs blocking sometimes? Right. Are we gonna do that? And we're involved in all of that on a level that I'm not sure everybody is.
- [43:20]
Caroline Burke
How has your role running the firm had to shift? Where have you had to sort of adapt just your priorities and what are the things? I know one of them is the drawing, but what are the things that are sort of non negotiable that have to come from you?
- [43:35]
Lil Smkenna
Oh, I make all. I do still make all the creative decisions. So I've had to learn how to delegate in a way that empowers my team to come to me when they need answers. So I am really clear about, you know, if I haven't picked the trim for a pillow. You need to put those samples in front of me and write us, post it on it that says what pillow it is and come to me and say, which books do you need out to pick that trim? We got to get this done. And I think at first probably my employees are like, how does she not know what she needs to pick? But when we're taking on more projects, I won't remember every single pillow that I need to pick the trim for. And so I need them to be that organized for me and to be on top of the timelines enough to know when they need that information. I've been really lucky to have a team that is awesome at that and can figure out with me how to manage me and I can make fun of myself enough that I think we're all okay with it, but it's the only way that I can get it all done and still be the one picking all of the, the trims.
- [44:45]
Caroline Burke
What is the secret to a successful.
- [44:47]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Employee at your firm?
- [44:48]
Lil Smkenna
I think it's somebody who's willing to take ownership of those things. The timelines and the responsibility for getting all the orders placed when they're supposed to, obviously, and also owning any mistakes. If we didn't pick that trim and it needed to be picked and the, you know, the upholsterer couldn't get that pillow done because we didn't pick that trim, I need them to come to me and say, say, you know, this is, this is a mistake that I made. It won't happen again. But that way I can help them sort of crisis manage and we can get things done for the client that we need to get done. So it's really about people who take responsibility and people who want to own their role.
- [45:31]
Caroline Burke
How big is the team right now? And you mentioned sort of taking on select projects. What does the workload, like a typical workload look like, like for that team?
- [45:41]
Lil Smkenna
So right now I have one project manager and a design assistant and then I have a head of special projects who's helping me with things like our newsletter and other marketing sort of initiatives that we have started up actually around here or are things that I've been working on in the background but needed another person to come on to help me with. And so we can do about five projects at a time, sort of at our max with my project manager, me and her assistant. So that's sort of how we have to work out the workflow. Right. We have to figure out if a project is going to fit for us. A lot of it has to do with timeline, honestly, like almost, almost all of it. If we're sort of knee deep and creative for five projects, there's no way or four projects, there's no way we're going to take on the 5th because that is just running too many projects with me at the, as the point person at one time. And then it's going to be too many projects with them as the point person. It's really about balancing that out. But we do not take a million projects because even though we, we could take smaller projects and we could really fill up our time with more projects, it's very difficult to scale to accommodate that. And I just haven't figured out a way to do that. Well.
- [47:01]
Kaitlyn Peterson
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- [47:53]
Caroline Burke
When you think ahead to the firm you want five or 10 years from now, how different does it look from the work you're doing today or the size and the scope of the work you're doing today?
- [48:03]
Lil Smkenna
When I look ahead to five to 10 years from now, I'm hopeful that we will keep getting some of the larger projects that we're getting and we'll be able to keep focusing on those projects and as much as we can. Our ideal year would be three large projects and that's it. Because those big ones take so much time and focus and they really can have some of the best rewards for us in terms of what they look like upon completion. So I am happy to do very few very large projects, but I also think that some of the smaller stuff keeps you on your toes and like reminds you of what you're capable of. So I guess it's similar, it's a similar firm to what we have today. And by that point my kids will be a little bit older, so I maybe could be doing some more exotic, you know, farther away projects.
- [48:57]
Caroline Burke
Yeah.
- [48:58]
Lil Smkenna
Whereas today sometimes I'm having to turn down projects that are farther away just because it's difficult for me to hop on a plane. We got an inquiry for one in the Seychelles this year and it just, I couldn't really make it work with having little kids to be traveling all the way around the world basically to do that project. And that was a bummer. That was something I would have definitely taken earlier on in my career, before I had kids.
- [49:24]
Caroline Burke
When you are really kind of editing so tightly what you say yes to, how does that shift the way that you think about things like photographing your work or getting published or putting that work on social media just because sort of the moments to sort of celebrate this new big project are sort of fewer and farther between.
- [49:48]
Lil Smkenna
Right. Well, so as far as that goes, I do think for a design firm, your only real assets at the end of the day are your portfolio. So you really do have to have that in mind. I know that that makes it sound like it can be a bit of a cold process who you choose for your clients, but you do have to have that in mind in terms of, you know, what are we going to have to show for this work that we're doing and you're going to have that photography. And that's kind of about it. We try to take a scope that allows us to get the photographs that we would need to get something published. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way, especially if the house is huge. We might end up doing the first floor first and then the second floor. We might not get that bedroom that we need to get published. But, you know, if we can, we. We try to. And so I definitely am thinking about that all the time. And I always have been. I always was really impressed that Markham was able to have the same photographer sort of throughout his career photographing everything. And so when I started my own firm, I found a photographer that I loved and he has photographed everything that I've ever done. So that we have that continuity of the portfolio as well. So we certainly think about that when we're taking on projects, for sure.
- [51:06]
Caroline Burke
How does that translate to like social, you know, are you holding projects to get published? How long do you have to sit on stuff before you can really celebrate it?
- [51:15]
Lil Smkenna
Right. Well, so I try to celebrate it throughout. I'll post, you know, drawings that I'm doing, I'll post schemes that we're working with. I try to sort of get as many details as I can out on social media, although sometimes it's hard because you don't want to over share before the room has been shared. You want to see that scheme pop up on somebody else's social media. But I think when you have those photographs, I'm sure every designer goes through this, that you, you are sitting on them longer than you want to be, no matter what, waiting to see where they land. But we kind of to circumvent that, we're willing to do online publishing just as much as we're willing to do print because, you know, you want to get the photographs out there and up on your portfolio as soon as you can. So I. But it is, it's a long game, right? It's like from when you sign onto the project to when it gets published is often three years. And so it's a slower roll than most pr, I think. And that's just part of the business.
- [52:22]
Caroline Burke
Is Instagram or getting Published as essential to you now as it was when you were getting your firm off the.
- [52:29]
Lil Smkenna
Ground, I think it's still always good. You know, even as I've watched Instagram sort of take over all of our attention and take it away from what used to be sort of the prized space in all the shelter magazines, I still think it's been important for the editors to validate your talent. And so, in one way or another, it's good to get things published. We've been really lucky to have projects that get published online and then get published in print and then might end up in a book. So it kind of seems like, you know, if you were comparing that to when I first started in this industry, like, the world's turned upside down. Right, right. You used to hold on to photos and everything desperately.
- [53:17]
Caroline Burke
Yeah, yeah.
- [53:18]
Lil Smkenna
And you would hold on to scouting shots. I mean, nobody was really photographing all their own stuff until you had a book deal, and then you would photograph all your own stuff. But now it's totally different, and so we all need to photograph our own stuff. And then you're holding on to professional images that you've paid for for a while, sometimes while you wait. So I think, you know, it's good when it ends up on Instagram. I'm still hesitant to share them on Instagram before an editor has, just because, you know, especially with the algorithm constantly changing, I'm just not going to have that same reach. And it's still good to be. To get that stamp of approval.
- [53:57]
Caroline Burke
I feel like so much of this show, you know, the conversation always turns to the fact that running a design business is so inherently not creative most of the time. Yeah. What keeps you inspired? What reinvigorates you or helps you sort of keep that creative spark alive?
- [54:18]
Lil Smkenna
I love the creative portion of the project. Like, the big first creative push is my favorite part of a project. So I think, you know, when you get a new one and you're starting that, that's obviously the. The thing that keeps you going as a designer. But I also have started this newsletter. I started it a couple of years ago, and it's sort of evolved with the times. Now it's a substack, but I find that to be a great creative outlet and sort of something to give people when I don't have much to give on creative. I mean, on social media that I can sort of share. Okay. This is what's inspiring me right now. This is. Is what I'm buying right now. I think that sort of reinvigorates me and hearing from people about it, it's like, okay, we're still relevant even if we're not keeping up with the algorithm, like, we should probably. Or even if we haven't had something published formally recently, we're still, you know, able to connect with people who are interested in our work. And that's. That is sort of feeds that creative outlet need for me.
- [55:22]
Caroline Burke
I know you've been taking consultations on the Expert. Can you tell me a little bit about what that adds for you? Is that also sort of like a quick hit of creative output that is helpful, or what role has that played in your workflow?
- [55:40]
Lil Smkenna
Yeah, you know, it's funny, it sounds really selfish when I describe it, why I like to do it, but I really like to do it because I think it can sort of shake me out of a rut if I'm in. Sometimes I can get very maybe overly dedicated to that initial vision. Right. So if something goes wrong or if there's some reason why we can't execute something the way I had originally envisioned it and drawn it out, I can get pretty frustrated and can get sort of like stuck in this rut of like, how are we going to fix this? And it can become all consuming. And I figured out somewhere along the road, if I picked up the phone and called someone and helped them with finding the light for their kitchen, that could sort of shake me out of it for whatever reason.
- [56:25]
Caroline Burke
Oh, that's so cool.
- [56:27]
Lil Smkenna
Some light shopping and a problem that I could solve if there was a problem that was feeling really daunting for me with a project. So I think it's been really rewarding in that way that it sort of pushes me to shop differently, to think differently, and to just approach. Approach something with fresh eyes and hopefully give someone advice that really helps them. And that sort of jolts me out of whatever creative sticking point I'm in with a project.
- [56:57]
Caroline Burke
What does success look like to you today?
- [57:01]
Lil Smkenna
Success for me is delivering a home that suits all of the clients needs that they gave us from the outset. And is that my whole team is excited about too. You know, that's really success when we get to do an installation that, like, everyone is totally thrilled with and we're excited to see the things come off of the truck, that's really success for us. And when the clients send us notes saying how much they love it, you know, nothing is better than that. Or we get photos of their families in the space, really nothing is better than. Than that for my team and for me.
- [57:43]
Kaitlyn Peterson
That'S our show.
- [57:44]
Caroline Burke
For today.
- [57:44]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to keep up with.
- [57:47]
Caroline Burke
The latest design industry news, check out.
- [57:49]
Kaitlyn Peterson
New products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're.
- [57:55]
Caroline Burke
Enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show.
- [58:00]
Kaitlyn Peterson
If you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@trade talesusofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlin Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson.
- [58:21]
Caroline Burke
Thanks again for listening and I'll see.
- [58:23]
Kaitlyn Peterson
You back here next week.