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Trade Tales
Why Ariel Okin believes all clients deserve ‘unfailing optimism’
00:57:10
Ariel Okin on why her firm doesn’t shoot every project, how a switch to hourly billing has made the firm more profitable and how her presence in the project process is changing as her businesses grow.
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- [00:02]
Ariel Oken
You know, I think it's really important to just find people that you feel a synergy with. You know, they challenge you thoughtfully so that you become a better person at work too. I think if you aren't open to being pushed and you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're not learning anything.
- [00:19]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales, where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer whose early look at the industry inspired her to structure her business with a clear separation of the creative and operations teams. She's also built a media empire complete with a digital platform, a podcast, and in person events for design enthusiasts. We talked about how she stays open to new ideas, what it means to be a leader, a new experiment with delegating, and how writing her first book has shaped her outlook about her firm's next decade. I can't wait to share it with you. But first, a quick word from our sponsors. Hey designers, here's a quick tip before we dive in. If you're juggling client projects that include replacing windows and do you need to know about renewal by Andersen's Interior Designer loyalty program? It's a total game changer because they can take care of all of the windows and doors for you so that you don't have to worry about it. You'll get trade discounts, exclusive rewards, and a team that truly knows what they're doing. Enjoy having a trusted expert who makes your projects run so much more smoothly. Apply today at renewalbyandersoninteriordesigner.com that's renewalbyanderson a N-E-R s e n interior designer.com terms and conditions apply. This podcast is brought to you by lightovation at Dallas Market Center. Looking to elevate your lighting selections for clients? Lightovation offers 1 million square feet of lighting, encompassing all categories for homes and hospitality environments, including brands you won't see anywhere else. Find out why lighting lives in Dallas January 10th 13th, including Design Plus Build Day for trade professionals on January 13th. Visit DallasMarketCenter.com Lightovation to learn more. That's DallasMarketCenter.com Lightovation.
- [03:03]
Ariel Oken
I didn't go to school for design. I Actually went to school for journalism, and then I got my master's with a focus on public affairs. For me, it started when I was living in the city during grad school and right after grad school and people would come to my apartment and they would say, oh, I love your apartment so much. Can you help me with mine? And so I started helping friends for fun. And I really loved it. I was putting keynote presentations together for them and spending hours on Pinterest. It was like relaxing for me. But it didn't occur to me that I could be a job or a career.
- [03:36]
Caitlin Peterson
That's Ariel Oken. Despite her design hobby, she continued along her chosen career path, working a day job in corporate communications. Then she received a tip that would cause her to change course completely.
- [03:50]
Ariel Oken
One of my best friend's moms, actually, I saw her and she was like, have you heard of this company called Home Polish? I just met the founder. You should check it out. It was very early days of Home Polish and I applied to be a designer. And it just went so quickly. Like I went from being like entry level designer within like about a year to a year and a half to being one of their senior, like, premier designers.
- [04:13]
Caitlin Peterson
Before long, Ariel found herself juggling so much design work that it felt like she had two full time jobs. It became clear that another path had opened up and Ariel was ready to take it.
- [04:26]
Ariel Oken
By the time I had been there for two or three years, I was getting really large scale work and then I had had a roster that was big enough where I felt like, okay, I can leave my day job now. I did it for about three years. So I got married, I came back, and then a couple months after my honeymoon, I went out on my own fully with Home Polish. And so I did that for about a year. And then I left Home Polish and really went out on my own.
- [04:49]
Caitlin Peterson
Ariel officially launched her firm in 2016. I wanted to talk to her about why she doesn't shoot every project, how a switch to hourly billing has made the firm more profitable, and how her presence in the project process is changing as her businesses grow.
- [05:11]
Interviewer
How helpful were those back of house services Home Polish offered in sort of shaping the way that you looked at how a design firm should work?
- [05:19]
Ariel Oken
Oh, my God. It was so incredibly helpful for me because, you know, I was not coming from a traditional design path. I didn't go to design school, I didn't intern anywhere, which, you know, in hindsight I wish I did. I would have made less costly mistakes in the beginning as a stupid 23 year old, but I learned so much about how to set up the back end of the business. And actually when I left to start my own firm, Lara, who's our operations director at AOI for the last decade, also worked at Home Polish. And she came with me and we started on our own together. And the most crucial thing that I took away from Home Polish was the division of creative and logistics or operational. So I kind of operate my firm the way that I did there. So at aoi, the operations side, so procurement, FF and E, budgeting, invoicing, construction management, project management, that's one side of our business and that runs under Lara. And we have Lara, who's our operations director and then we have two senior lead project managers under her. Each will get assigned a specific project and they oversee that project logistically from concept to install. And then the design side of the business operates purely as design. So our interior designers only work on, you know, sourcing cad, putting the keynote presentation together, photoshopping it all together. And so for me, I think it actually left a really big crucial mark on the way that I run my firm because they, they operate it that way like their back of house was the operation side and it kind of took the lift of that off of the designer so they could focus on being creative. And I found it to be incredibly helpful because creatives are not usually left brained people. And so the feedback that we've gotten is that the designers really appreciate the ability to focus on being creative. And the people that we hire on the op side or are super type A, some came from wedding planning, some came from marketing and insurance. And so they love like they live for a spreadsheet, you know, and that's like the right person for that role. So everybody operates differently, which is one of the things I love about this industry in general. But for us it works. And I'm grateful that I figured it out from them totally.
- [07:44]
Interviewer
So many people I talk to try to hire junior people who want to be designers. And the stepping stone to becoming creative is sort of to wade through like placing all the orders. Yeah, it sounds like you haven't gone down that path.
- [07:59]
Ariel Oken
No, we never have. Our designers, we hire strictly to be creative. They don't touch procurement. And one of the things that I've learned over time with hiring for that particular role is that we like them to have at least three to five years of experience. Because of what you just said. Right. So a lot of times if you're hiring somebody junior for a design role, they actually haven't really done much design. And so I, when we hire people, we on the creative side, we give them a project and it's like a mock apartment. It's a real floor plan with like a fake, you know, client prompt. And we ask that we give them our template of how we present and then we ask them based on this client prompt, like, can you design this apartment? Because I want to see that they have the skills to do it. I want to know that they can do cat. I want to know that they can Photoshop. I want to know that they can actually like follow the prompt well and pick things that make sense for that prompt. So it definitely changed the way we hire. Not changed, but kind of shapes the way we hire for that role. Because of what you just said that a lot, a lot of entry level designers or design roles are mostly admin.
- [09:11]
Caitlin Peterson
When you, when you are hiring, you.
- [09:14]
Interviewer
Know, what's the most important thing? Is it about, you know, tapping into the right vendors? Is it about having the right technical skills? Is it about the way they've sort of thought about solving the problem? Right? Like if someone does a great floor plan but they pick all the wrong products, what do you take away from that? What is a successful sort of answer to that prompt?
- [09:34]
Ariel Oken
Yeah, it's a good question. Honestly. It's everything. It's everything that you just listed. It's making sure that they've thought about space planning in an intelligent way. It's making sure that they've actually read the instructions. If you're not fully reading the instructions or the brief or completing the keynote in the way that we listen, the instructions, that to me shows the level of attention to detail might not be there. And in this industry, you can't really like, that's like a big issue, right? Because that's how you can have costly mistakes. And then also it's like just that innate taste level, you know, is that there? Is that. And not only is it there, but is it in line with the way we design? Because it could be stunning, but maybe it doesn't fit with, you know, the brief that we gave. And we've actually had people go back and refine before because the floor plan was great. You know, everything checked a box. But I wanted to see if they could kind of flex that design, sourcing muscle a little bit more. So it's, it's an interesting exercise to give and I think we learn a lot from it. You know, when we hire for interior designers, they are only doing creative and cad. They're not doing the admin. So they need to be able to take creative feedback from me.
- [10:45]
Interviewer
How big is your team today, and is that sort of the right size? Have you been there for a long time? Or how do you think about kind of firm size in General?
- [10:54]
Ariel Oken
Aoi is 7. Right now. I have a sort of, like, executive assistant chief of staff who's wonderful and also helps us run the office. And then under Lara, who's our operations director, we have two project managers, so that's three. On the op side, Caitlin is four. And then on the design side, we have two interior designers that are. I don't hire at the junior level for interior designers at this point. We just hire interior designers. So we have two, and then we have an intern who's just absolutely excellent and wonderful. And so we've found that seven feels really nice for us and makes sense. And we've been at this number for a while. I would say probably four or five years.
- [11:39]
Interviewer
As business has shifted in the last four or five years, how has that team's workload flexed and, you know, evolved? Or how are you thinking about sort of staying consistent as a firm as the industry changes around you?
- [11:54]
Ariel Oken
It's an evolving conversation that we're having all the time, and Lara and I take it really seriously. We meet, like, all the time to plan about, you know, are we using our resources internally effectively, and what's the best way to, you know, use our team and how can they cross over effectively? And one of the things we've noticed is, and I think every designer sees this, is when business ebbs and flows, different size of the business get busier and quieter. Right. So, like, when. And it always happens this way for us. I don't know if it happens for other people, but, like, we'll sign new projects kind of like in a cluster. So we get sort of, like, really heavy on the creative for months, but then the upside is, like, maybe a little bit later, because they're not into procurement yet, because we're in the creative phase. So one of our discussions has been how do we utilize the light side when, you know, one side is heavy and vice versa. So we've been working on trying to, like, have everybody be able to tap into everyone else's job if they need to, just, like to have a little bit of flexibility. So even though the design girls don't procure, they do know how to use studio designer, and they do know how to help out with, like, the project trackers, and they're very integral in, like, building the project trackers out so that there's no mistake in relaying the design information over to the upside, if that makes sense. Like the creative triple, triple, triple checks everything before. Yeah, exactly. So that's one thing, I think, just trying to be nimble and making sure that everybody can step in as needed when we're busy, and then when we're not busy on one side, which happens. Like, if creative is super heavy, for example, and ops is lighter, then we have a running list of things that they can do that is sort of like background work for when things are lessened on their side. Internal housekeeping, you know, all that kind of stuff.
- [13:56]
Caitlin Peterson
What's on that list?
- [13:57]
Interviewer
Like, someone called that a rainy day list to me.
- [13:59]
Ariel Oken
Yes. Oh, I love that.
- [14:00]
Interviewer
And I love that.
- [14:01]
Ariel Oken
Yeah, that's so good.
- [14:03]
Interviewer
What is your rainy day list?
- [14:05]
Ariel Oken
So on the upside, I know a lot of the rainy day. Rainy day list items are, you know, going through and making sure with our accountant that the things that need to be invoiced have been invoiced, actually. So, you know, digging in with our accountant on those things or Lara, one of her rainy day items is like, going in and working on our handbook. We have a handbook for the firm that everybody gets when they become an employee. And it just sort of like, outlines our best practices and processes that we have. And because our processes are kind of evolving, you know, over time, making sure that that handbook is, like, always up to date. And then on the design side, a rainy day thing would look like taking time to go source, even if it's not for a specific project. Because when we're really busy and we have specific projects that we're sourcing for, we go with a purpose in mind. Like, we have a brief, and we know exactly what we're looking for, and we have very specific targeted places to go for. So a rainy day would look like kind of sourcing to source and like, finding new brands for the joy and fun of it and not just for a specific project, you know, or some professional development. Like, we offer professional development for everyone at the firm.
- [15:21]
Interviewer
Ooh, that's awesome.
- [15:22]
Ariel Oken
Yeah, it's really fun. So, like, one of the senior lead project managers is taking Spanish right now, so we. We, like, set her up with Spanish classes so that she can better communicate on site. Another design side person is taking or is thinking about taking this course that's basically like a one on one of construction management. Oh, cool. Yeah, we saw it recently, and we were like, this sounds great. We should all do this. So, you know, it's things like that. It's A mix of professional development, admin and then also like letting your brain kind of wander and, and finding sources and being creative. And I think being creative without a purpose, often something really interesting can come out of that.
- [16:02]
Interviewer
We talk a lot on this show about how a principal's role evolves as their team grows, as the demands on their time change. How as your team grew, as you structured your firm, were you thinking about the work that you wanted to be doing and what role you were going to really carve out for yourself?
- [16:20]
Ariel Oken
You know, I really, I never wanted to grow so big that I'm not touching a project. So recently we tried one project where the design team is leading the. So usually I lead all sourcing, I lead every design presentation and I'm the primary point of contact for design in terms of like client relations. And then the design team is heavily, heavily involved. We just tried one project where the design team is going to lead a meeting and I was just curious to see what, you know, what it will be like. So that's new for us and you know, it's a way that we can take more work on without me touching something. But we're having internal design meetings before it's being presented to the client. So it's not like I'm not seeing anything before it goes out. I would never want something to go out to somebody that I hadn't seen in its entirety and approved every single item before someone sees it with that.
- [17:22]
Interviewer
As a North Star. How has that sort of shaped the choices you've made as you think about what growth or expansion look like?
- [17:28]
Ariel Oken
We try to be very careful about not taking on so much that we're spread extra, extra thin. And so if that means that we say to someone, hey, you know, we would love to take this project on, but we need like three months or so. We will do that. A big theme for us is we never want to over promise and under deliver. So we want to be able to give the same level of service to every single project that we take on. So I found the sweet spot for us in terms of like number of projects is like 7 to 10. Yeah. And usually we get, we get inquiries in like a, in a bunch. And I don't know why that happens, but there will be months where we're like very creative heavy and then ops is like very procurement heavy. So the ebb and flow is nice also because the teams each get, you know, it's a lot of work at once, but then they get a break.
- [18:16]
Interviewer
Can you tell me a little bit about Your partnership with Lara.
- [18:19]
Ariel Oken
Lara and I are like one brain. Like, at this point, we're kind of like sisters. We have kids the same age. We like went through the same life stages at the same time and continue to, which is really nice. Lara has been with me for 10, it'll be 10 years. And our other project managers, it's like six years, five years. People, people stay for a long time, which I'm really grateful for. And I think in large part of that is, you know, Lara also cares as much about the firm and retaining people and having a really enjoyable work life culture as much as I do. And we're always on the same page. So I think that's really important when running a firm that you are very much on the same page about those things.
- [19:03]
Interviewer
How do you find a partner like that?
- [19:05]
Ariel Oken
I honestly don't know. We just got so lucky. I mean, she. We met at Home polish and we vibed.
- [19:12]
Interviewer
Was she on the upside? At Home Polish?
- [19:14]
Ariel Oken
She was my OPS person at Home Polish. Like, she was like my dedicated, like, purchasing person at Home Polish. And we just like really vibed and, you know, same as Christina. Like, Christina Catarini, who's my publicist, has also been with me for a decade.
- [19:28]
Interviewer
She's the best.
- [19:29]
Ariel Oken
She is the best. I love her so much. She is like my favorite person. And, you know, I think it's really important to just find people that you feel a synergy with and they really understand, you know, what your ethos is all about. And they're also all in on that. And also that they push back thoughtfully and give you, you know, they challenge you thoughtfully so that you become a better person at work too. And particularly on the op side. Like, I am not a math brained person, so, you know, I value it tremendously. And Christina too. I mean, Christina has, you know, she spent almost a decade at Sunshine Sax. Like, she, she knows what she's talking about. And I think that's a key thing, is, like, you have to value the person that you're bringing on, your team's expertise and like, stop and listen when they have something to say and really take it into consideration.
- [20:23]
Caitlin Peterson
Designers, take note. This January, Dallas Market center hosts Design plus Build Day at Light Ovation, which will feature a keynote from Interior Design magazine Editor in Chief Cindy Allen and a full day of dynamic programming just for trade professionals. Light Ovation is the largest lighting show in North America. It opens January 10th and ends with Design Plus Build Day on January 13th. You can register today at DallasMarketCenter.com Lightovation that's DallasMarketCenter.com Lightovation.
- [21:01]
Interviewer
One thing I've been thinking about, as you kind of described this, separate between the design team and the operations team. Where does like the money conversation and the budget fall into that? Because in some ways that's both sides, right?
- [21:15]
Ariel Oken
Yes, it's the first thing we talk about. We don't sign a project. It's the first thing we talk about with an inquiry.
- [21:21]
Interviewer
And who talks to them about it?
- [21:23]
Ariel Oken
I do and Lara does. So we do it together. When we get an inquiry, we talk to, you know, the potential client about scope of work, we ask for a floor plan. We have like an hour long conversation about what they're looking to do. We only take on whole home projects. So, you know, is it a gut and an addition, Is it a ground up build, is it decorating? And then Lara will with me together build out a full FF&U mock budget and we go over it with the client. It's an all in estimated number including, so we bill hourly plus commission. So it estimates our hours. We've got estimated furniture spend based on their scope of work and similarly scoped projects that we've had in the past. It includes receiving shipping, sales tax. It has everything. Because I think there's nothing worse that could happen than you start a project, you're not on the same page financially, you present a budget, they get mad. I mean, it's just like you have to talk about money immediately off the bat. Like it's like when you don't, you're making a great mistake.
- [22:27]
Interviewer
So that's your second meeting, right. You've done that. First meeting is to really understand. Or that first phone call is like, who are you? What do you want? And then you're coming back to them and saying, let's talk through what we think this is going to cost you.
- [22:38]
Ariel Oken
Yeah. So our proposal to a client after we've, you know, taken their first inquiry call is here's our ff, like here's what we think it will cost and why, with an estimate of, you know, based on past projects, what we think that would cost. The only thing we don't estimate is labor, obviously, because we can't. But it's crucially important. And I think clients like that because they know exactly what they're getting. It's very buttoned up and organized. It's very black and white. And I'd rather overestimate than underestimate and someone be like, I'd rather somebody be pleasantly surprised than be annoyed.
- [23:14]
Interviewer
This is a lot of Work before someone has signed a contract.
- [23:18]
Ariel Oken
Yeah, it is. It can take us like sometimes a week to put together these proposals. But to me, I think it's really important because when someone does sign a contract, we're all on the same page. And when a project ends over financial stuff, it's because 99% of the time that conversation wasn't had.
- [23:37]
Interviewer
Where in that process is sort of the. The all coming piece, the I really like this client or I don't really want to work with these people for two years. Like, when does that.
- [23:47]
Ariel Oken
Oh, right off the bat.
- [23:48]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [23:49]
Ariel Oken
I can tell there have been one or two times where I thought there may have been a red flag. And Laura actually was like, I don't think so. And we proceeded and it was. It was fine. I'm like extra cautious at this point. I never want to take on work that will give anybody grievance at the firm. No one wants to work with somebody that will make life miserable. And these projects are really all in, and we're working on them for two years, you know, sometimes. So Vibe is a big thing. And also, you know, do they understand what we're. What we're telling them? Right. Like, can they understand the concept of an FF&E budget? Have they done this before? Is it their first time working with the designer? Oftentimes the best clients are ones where it's not their first rodeo. But sometimes people surprise you and like, you know, that's not always the case. So I think it's. It's really about reading them and seeing who you click with. And if people have enthusiasm about your specific firm and the work that you're doing, I think that's a really good sign too, because it means they really want to work with you specifically.
- [24:54]
Interviewer
You know, you said that you're charging hourly and then commission is hourly also for the operations team.
- [25:01]
Ariel Oken
Yeah, we bill hourly for all of our time. That was a pivot for us. We used to bill flat fee, and we changed years ago. At this point, over five years ago, I would say pre. Covid.
- [25:16]
Interviewer
Oh, so you missed the crazy spike or like you didn't get burned by the spike in procurement hours?
- [25:22]
Ariel Oken
No, thank God. Covid. We. I think we changed in 2019.
- [25:27]
Interviewer
Okay, what was driving that for you or what was the shortcoming of not billing hourly for those operations hours?
- [25:33]
Ariel Oken
I really didn't think that we were being as profitable as we could be. And our accountant kind of said as said so. You know, we worked with an accountant who only works with interior designers, and they said that they had also seen that, you know, hourly increase their profitability. And we did see that that was the case for us, like, hourly did increase our profitability. And also it just makes us feel like we are always being compensated for working. And so I think it reduces resentment when, you know, if you have a client that's texting, not that we really do, but that type of thing, it kind of helps mitigate that.
- [26:09]
Interviewer
How do you talk about, you know, the operations hours versus that commission cost?
- [26:15]
Ariel Oken
We just try to be as transparent as we possibly can. Right. So, you know, here's our commission number. Here's what we estimate your FF&E spend will be, and then here's, you know, what the commission would be. You know, it's pretty black and white. And then the. The hourly billing is compensating for the time that we've worked. We've never really had pushback on it, honestly. And I think people understand that, like a lawyer, you bill for your time, and it's reasonable. Listen, most of our clients are, you know, work in a professional world, and they also value being compensated for their time. So, you know, on a human level, I think if you're real with people and you are very transparent and clear from the outset about this is how we bill, this is why we bill, and this is how much you can expect. And if you follow it to a T, I think they respect it.
- [27:06]
Interviewer
And then that budget that you agree on there is sort of shaping the selections the creative team makes.
- [27:11]
Ariel Oken
Yeah, and that's really helpful, too, because, like, you never want to have midway through a project where it's like, oh, surprise, this is all X. And the client's like, what? This isn't to say that we don't value engineer. We do. We give a pricing list before we even move into invoice mode or proposal mode. And so we give clients the pricing sheet. They see what each individual item costs. Because some people are like, you know, I don't want to spend $8,000 on a pair of lamps, even though the overall number of sourcing is within that, like, final budget number.
- [27:42]
Interviewer
That's just a thing they can't wrap their heads around.
- [27:44]
Ariel Oken
Correct? Yes. And some people will. Some people are like, oh, I love, you know, X brand, and I appreciate the artistry, and that's important to me. And then other people find that category not where they would want to, you know, allocate those funds and would rather put it toward upholstery or, you know, whatever it may be. So we value engineer within that overall budget number. But we never, we stay within that budget number.
- [28:07]
Caitlin Peterson
What has tested you the most as.
- [28:09]
Interviewer
An entrepreneur running your firm?
- [28:11]
Ariel Oken
I think learning how to grow, adding additional team members as we did that, that was, you know, a lesson in leading a team. And Lara and I have both done a lot of professional development and reading around, you know, what that looks like and what thought leadership says about some of the best ways to do that are, um, and it's kind of an evolving thing that we're always interested in. Firm culture is really important to me and I want people to be really happy when they're working for us. So I also have a whole other side of my business. Right. Like I have found more Lane Media, which, you know, we have the podcast, we have the summit, we have the digital editorial. There's also three people that work on that team. And so figuring out how to merge those two teams together and also how to allocate my time effectively between both companies is something that I think was a learning curve for me as federally media grew alongside the firm and figuring out how to sort of prioritize timing. And I feel like I've gotten into a groove with it.
- [29:19]
Interviewer
Can you tell me about where that idea came from, what made you want to launch it and kind of what that's added to you in terms of the breadth of your business?
- [29:31]
Ariel Oken
Yeah. So I went to undergraduate college for journalism. I've always written. I have been a contributing writer to Vogue for a decade. I wrote for Architectural Digest for a time, Freelance and Domino. So I've been writing my whole life. And to me, you know, it's just, it's another creative outlet. I love it. And when Covet happened, there was a freeze from Conde Nast on like freelancers. And so I wasn't getting as much writing work. And so I thought, well, why don't I start my own outlet, then I can write the articles that I want to write. And so it really like came about because of COVID I started Fedimar Lane in 2020 and it's grown into, you know, a multi stream media company with different revenue sources. And we have a podcast, we have digital Editorial, which is what we started with. And then we have the summit at the Me Flower and Spa, which is no bears collection property that we do every year. I love it. It's really fun to do. It's a different side of my brain, but it's still creative. It exercises the journalism muscle and it's just been a delight to grow and watch it grow.
- [30:46]
Caitlin Peterson
You said you were like, oh, I.
- [30:48]
Interviewer
Could tell the stories that I wanted to tell. The stuff that you were most excited about.
- [30:52]
Ariel Oken
Yeah.
- [30:52]
Interviewer
When you started thinking about what those were, when you started developing an editorial calendar, what was that? What was sort of the untapped area that you were able to fill?
- [31:02]
Ariel Oken
I've always been a connector. Like, I think whether that means kind of like connecting the dots between what our design clients say they want and what that actually means, or connecting the different channels of our two businesses, or connecting friends who I think might, you know, either work well together or be friends, or. It's always been something that I have done. And so for me, with Fenwoline, I was like, why don't we hear different stories from people about how are they coping during COVID How did they get their start? You know, and from that, it sort of grew into, all right, now we have a full blown digital editorial calendar. And it started really organically. At first it was like me interviewing my designer friends, and then it was like me writing up a recipe that I made up at home during COVID because I was like, making God knows what at home because I wasn't leaving the house. You know, it was a list of our favorite coffee table books. It was, you know, the best home finds for fall. And then it just kind of grew. And it's been really cool to. To watch it grow.
- [32:05]
Interviewer
What does your team look like on that side of the business?
- [32:08]
Ariel Oken
So I have sort of like an editorial director who plans our calendar. I have someone who helps on the social side for Fenimore. I do my own social for my personal. But Fenimore, we have someone helping with social, and then I have someone who helps with, like, graphics and substack, because I also have my substack now that I've been writing on.
- [32:27]
Interviewer
Have you felt the impact on your design business? What is sort of the ripple effect of Fenimore Lane being out there in the world and being more established now?
- [32:36]
Ariel Oken
We've gotten more inquiries from it, which is interesting. I think people have found us through the podcast, which was not something I expected. Or, you know, they came to the summit and then two years later they ended up hiring us. That happened. So that was like, an unexpected element of it because I think it overall raised the brand profile of both companies, you know, and so then, like, with more visibility comes more inquiries. I think on the personal side, there was a stretch of time when I started recording the show. I mean, we've been doing the show for two years now and, like, have done like 50 plus episodes. But in the beginning, I definitely felt A strain on my time because I didn't have, like, the calendar figured out yet. And I was recording sometimes, like, multiple a week, and then I had a client, like, couple client presentations. And then, you know, it's like, it goes back to what we were saying about how do you protect your creativity? Like, I had to scale back my time and really, like, figure out what that looked like. So for us, now it's like, okay, we only take 10 episodes a season, and so that means being really clear about who we have on and why. And, you know, that was tricky. Like, it was very hard in the beginning when it was growing, but now I've gotten into a groove with all of it. And so I. And Caitlin, my assistant, is really good at, like, knowing what will be too much on my plate. And I've also gotten more comfortable with saying, like, can we push that, you know, a week or two? Or. Or no, like, I can't do something at this time, which it was hard for me to do.
- [34:12]
Interviewer
Has your podcast and talking to other designers, talking to other creatives caused you to look inwards and change anything about your business?
- [34:21]
Ariel Oken
Big time. I learn so much every week that I do it.
- [34:24]
Interviewer
Are you like, oh, my God, I just had the best recording. We're going to change everything.
- [34:27]
Ariel Oken
Yes. Like, I will tell people. I just spoke to Nate Burkus the other day, and I was like, oh, my God, he's a genius. Like, I just feel so lucky that I get to do it, because every time I speak to someone, there's a nugget that I am taking somewhere in my brain.
- [34:42]
Interviewer
It's not, like, wholesale. Wipe out your process and start over. But maybe there's tinkering happening.
- [34:46]
Ariel Oken
Yeah, there's tinkering. I mean, we don't. At this point, we're pretty entrenched with, like, how we operate, but it is, like, little things. Like, it's. And the themes. Like, there's themes that come about from everyone, like, the importance of travel, the importance of, like, getting lost in your library and, like, collecting all different types of vintage books and really actually reading them and learning from them and, like, never closing your eye off. And we being constantly open to, like, learning new things and. And seeing new things. And every time I talk to someone, my mind is blown.
- [35:22]
Interviewer
I like that. That curiosity is so healthy, too.
- [35:24]
Ariel Oken
Yes, it's good. I mean, even just, like, in general in life, it's good. But it's so much fun to hear people's stories and how they got to where they are and how they manage their Firms. And I love doing it.
- [35:37]
Caitlin Peterson
I want to go back to some.
- [35:38]
Interviewer
Of those thought leadership exercises you were doing. You said you worked with coaches, you write a bunch of books. What has informed the way you think about running a business?
- [35:48]
Ariel Oken
For me, honestly and for Lara, it's. We want people to be happy to come to work every day. And so in our quarterly meetings, we have like one on ones with everyone. We ask people, is there something you would want to change about your day? Is there something you want to be doing more of? Is there something you want to be doing less of? And sometimes you get surprising answers, like someone from the op side wants to do more design, or, you know, vice versa. Or, you know, someone wants to learn Spanish, which I think was such a good idea. So I think having the curiosity to listen to people about where they are and meeting them there and. And being open to allowing them to explore what it is that they want to explore kind of helps us be better leaders. And then we're also always reading, like all of those books we read. We went through the unreasonable hospitality era, as everyone did.
- [36:37]
Interviewer
Are you over it or are you just.
- [36:38]
Caitlin Peterson
No.
- [36:39]
Ariel Oken
The next thing is so funny that, like, everyone was reading it at the same time. I felt like it was like, I think it's wonderful we really operate by that at our firm and it is a hospitality business. Um, I always say to our firm, like, we have to operate as if we are the concierge at a five star hotel.
- [36:56]
Interviewer
What does that mean? Throughout a design project, it's about being.
- [37:00]
Ariel Oken
Unfailingly optimistic, friendly, you know, like, no, nothing is, you know, no question is too silly. No request is too, you know, crazy. As long as everyone's being respectful of each other. Right.
- [37:12]
Interviewer
Unfailingly optimistic. I want to put that, like, on a post it note on my mirror somewhere.
- [37:18]
Ariel Oken
I think also unveiling optimism is like a big part of, like, how we grew the firm too.
- [37:24]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [37:24]
Ariel Oken
How we grew feta more Lane. You know, it's like the little engine that could. I think I can. I think I can. I think it, you know, you absorb the vibes you put out in the world. I'm a big believer in that. So, you know, I think it's what it looks like to a client, I hope, is that, you know, we're very respectful, we respond quickly, we're courteous, we like to go above and beyond. You know, we listen. Like, one of our clients in Brooklyn, we did a gut of a historic townhouse and her son was like, obsessed with like Dracula and vampires and stuff. And we, like, got him a stuffed animal at the install that, like, was in that general theme. And he was so excited. He was so cute. You know, it's things like that, just listening and paying attention and, you know, hopefully that helps you move along the process in a respectful and, and, and healthy way. And oftentimes our clients become friends with our team, which is really special. Like, we had a project in New Jersey that just ended that. We're, like, devastated that it ended because.
- [38:21]
Interviewer
We don't get to talk to them anymore.
- [38:23]
Ariel Oken
No, we love her so much. And, you know, you talk to somebody every day for two and a half years. It was like a gut and an addition of a 1930s home in New Jersey. And. And we just all love her so much. We miss her. She was like, don't worry, I'll be back. We're gonna have another project to work on.
- [38:39]
Interviewer
That's great.
- [38:40]
Ariel Oken
Yes, it's. It's special. You know, you. You make these relationships with people. And a lot of our clients are young families, so we're like, kind of in the same life stage too. And that's nice.
- [38:54]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [39:41]
Interviewer
How are you thinking about employee development? You know, you said you've kept people for a long time, but how do you create room for growth within the firm?
- [39:48]
Ariel Oken
Yeah, it's a really good question. You know, oftentimes because we are siloed in that way where it's ops and design, it can get tricky. Or sometimes someone does want to cross over. And I don't discourage it because I want people to feel fulfilled and happy and like what they're doing. So if that means someone sits in on a design meeting or they come sourcing with us, or if that means that someone wants to try their hand at, like, a little bit of project management, if that's not their day to day, like, I want everybody to try everything so that they feel like they get that chance and opportunity. But being able to touch it. And it's not like something that's forbidden to them, I think is important.
- [40:32]
Interviewer
You have your first book coming out in February. Yes, I know. That's probably been in the works for quite a long time. What did it mean to you to pull that together?
- [40:42]
Ariel Oken
It was so incredibly exciting, and it was a dream of mine for a really long time, especially because I've been a writer for my whole life, and getting to write my own book was really. It was a bucket list life item for me. And it. It was really, really exciting. And it was also really meaningful to go through because the book is organized, each chapter is a different home. And so revisiting some of those projects and really thinking about the why. And the book is called the Happy Home, and it's about layered interiors for Joyful Living is the subtitle. And it's about how we layer in all these different aspects of the client's personality and the functionality of what they want in their day to day lives to create these homes that actually work for them and make sense. So it was a good exercise for me too, in, like, distilling the real basis of what it is that we do and why we do it. It was really fun.
- [41:33]
Interviewer
Do you come away from a project like that with a crisper understanding of sort of how you want to move into the next decade?
- [41:41]
Ariel Oken
Yes, I do. It really helped me honestly come up with, like, a thesis for how we approach design. And for us, that's. It starts with listening and then connecting the dots. I know there's, like, themes in this episode, but, you know, connecting the dots for the client of what it looks like between the aesthetic and the functional, because they're just both equally as important, and then executing that in a way that feels really swift and good for the client and feels like, you know, they're being heard and taken care of and listened to, and also just placing their story at the forefront of everything that we do for sourcing. Because so much of the book was what was the client's story and how does it tie into the overarching design? For us, it brought the story of the client really center. And for us, we start with that in every project. And we're always kind of looking at ways to weave things in. Like, we have a project in Cold Spring harbor right now, and we're like, you know, what are ways that we can weave in, like, a sense of place and also the things that the clients love into the artwork and the palette and the motifs that we're using in the textiles? Like, it really crystallized for us the importance of having every home feel not just bespoke, but like, we're crafting their story in the material world, which is cool.
- [43:00]
Interviewer
I wanted to ask you about storytelling through a different lens, which is when others are telling your story.
- [43:08]
Ariel Oken
Yeah.
- [43:08]
Interviewer
Home Polish, you know, was a really formative part of your career, and there was such a social media and storytelling engine around so many of those projects. You've been a house beautiful Next Waiver Press has been there for you at kind of key touch points in the firm. How have you navigated that? How have you felt the effects of that? And what is the difference between telling your own story and having someone else tell it?
- [43:34]
Ariel Oken
I love that question. And I think it's interesting because I'm not just a designer. I also am a journalist.
- [43:40]
Interviewer
And as a journalist, I hate being interviewed.
- [43:42]
Ariel Oken
I hate it. I hate it, hate it, hate it. I, like.
- [43:44]
Caitlin Peterson
Sorry.
- [43:45]
Ariel Oken
So uncomfortable. No, I mean, this is fun. This doesn't feel like an interview because it's like more of a conversation, but it's. It's, like, weird because I'm used to being the one asking questions, you know, and so getting comfortable with telling our story is, you know, something that I've done over the last 10 years. And I'm also lucky that a lot of the editors are friends, too. You know, I. I wrote at AD for a little bit. I have friends at different places, which is helpful because, you know, I can also pick their brain on, like, do you think this is a good story idea? Do you think somebody would be interested in this? You know, I have got pictures back and I can show them, and sometimes they're like, you know what? Those pictures aren't right for us, and that's totally fine. And I want them to tell me that it happens frequently. So that's a nice element of also being in that world and, like, kind of having the duality of it. But I will say, I think Christina has just been so instrumentally helpful in helping me craft my pitching. And, you know, she does all of that, and she's so good at it. And I think it is really important for designers to have someone on their team that understands marketing, that understands PR and can help with that, because not everybody does. And, you know, I think it's important to be able to outsource the things that you are not good at. Like, for me, the accounting and the math stuff, like, that was, like, an immediate outsource. I am not left brained. You know, the PR stuff, for me, like, it's a real partnership with Christina on who do we pitch and what makes sense for this and da da da. But she has been completely instrumental in helping me build my firm's awareness over the last 10 years and build the awareness for Fen Marlene and for Summit and for the podcast. And she's tremendously wonderful at her job and I love her and I also love her as a human being. But she's just the best.
- [45:37]
Interviewer
Has getting well. Do you shoot every project? Do you want to publish every project and sort of how do you think about what you do with all of those assets and what's right for press?
- [45:49]
Ariel Oken
So we don't shoot every project. I would say in the beginning I shot everything because work begets work and if you don't have new stuff coming out constantly, then you're not, you're not as visible and then you're not going to get work. Potentially now I'm much more choosy about what we shoot. You know, when you're shooting these like large scale homes, it's like a three or four day shoot and shoot, they're expensive. And so from the firms perspective, I think continually investing in the highest quality photography and styling that I can to capture our work thoroughly and beautifully and in depth as possible really allows people to see each project, you know, when it gets picked up or released over time, how detailed and personal the work that we do is. And so that really helped us build on the types of clients that we were getting. So it is very important to do. It also helps me get my book. Jill Cohen gave me like the best advice that I ever got, which was like 99% of people are not going to walk through homes that you've done. And so the photography that you do, you have to really invest in. It needs to tell the story of the work that you're doing down to like the leading edge on the window treatment. You need the detail captured. And that was like a really big turning point moment for me where we started to really invest a ton in photography and styling.
- [47:08]
Interviewer
You're shooting differently if you're capturing, yes, the window treatment trim.
- [47:13]
Ariel Oken
You are, you need an extra day at least. You know, like our shoots are like three days and I'm shooting, I shoot with like multiple lenses. Like I shoot with social media in mind, I shoot with book in mind and I shoot with like editorial in mind. So you know, if you're just shooting with editorial in mind, you're getting like, I don't know, 20 to 30 photos. We, we capture like 80 to 100.
- [47:34]
Interviewer
And those will all go different places over the life cycle of the promotion of that project.
- [47:39]
Ariel Oken
Yeah, exactly. Not all of them live on our website. We edit them down because I think the website should be, like, distilled to, like, the best of what you have to offer. We actually just redid our website. It's not live yet, but we did it with Roxanne Hannah, who's the best. I love her. She did my website. We did it six years ago, and now we're refreshing it. But, yeah, I think press has the ability to change your whole career. Architectural Digest, we had a project in Southampton that got published two years ago that was huge for us. Like, the amount of inquiries that came in after that. It was like such a visible correlation.
- [48:18]
Interviewer
Digital or in print?
- [48:20]
Ariel Oken
Digital.
- [48:21]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [48:21]
Ariel Oken
And we find bumps from digital. I don't know how many people are sitting down with a magazine these days. Yeah, like, it's like a luxury to have the time to be able to sit down and read a magazine, you know, So I think digital is really important because people see it faster. And the conversion rate from a digital story, like, you're more likely to get an inquiry faster from it.
- [48:42]
Interviewer
Right. They're looking you up on Instagram. They're pinning that picture with their Pinterest board. It's. It's immediately actionable.
- [48:49]
Ariel Oken
Yeah, it's immediately actionable. And like you said, it, it. It's hitting different social media platforms, so it's increasing your chance of discovery. It's linking out to your website. It's more interactive. Not to say that it isn't, like, such an honor when you get a print feature. It is. And it's so exciting in a different way. And it's like, you know, you have that for posterity. Like, we always frame it. It's in the office. It's like hugely, like a big deal. But the digital component, I think, converts faster. And so, you know, you're like, forever grateful to these outlets for doing that for you. Like, it changes your life, it changes your career, it changes the types of projects that you. You get. Also, the thrill of being featured never goes away, you know, like, it's so exciting, even 10 years later to get something picked up. You're like, we're all screaming. And the clients are excited, like, oftentimes, like, they're excited for us too, because they're, you know, it's exciting for them to see their house in print or, you know, feature digitally. And it's also, like, they're proud of us.
- [49:44]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [49:45]
Ariel Oken
And. And that's really nice. So Press makes a huge difference.
- [49:50]
Interviewer
It also is expensive. And I, I know that all of the pursuit of all of these sort of outsourced things that amplify the opportunities you have cost a lot.
- [50:01]
Ariel Oken
Yeah. I mean, shoots are the biggest investment that we make by far.
- [50:05]
Interviewer
Even still.
- [50:06]
Ariel Oken
Yeah. I mean, it's expensive to do a book because you have to pay for all the photography.
- [50:10]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [50:10]
Ariel Oken
Stylist.
- [50:11]
Interviewer
How would you, for someone listening to this, how would you counsel them to start to prioritize that investment or to kind of tiptoe towards capturing their work in that way?
- [50:25]
Ariel Oken
I think it's smart to save and operate under the assumption in the beginning that you will shoot everything that you have. Because in the beginning, like, I literally just had my apartment. So, like, I shot every facet of my apartment every which way. And my website was just like different angles of my apartment.
- [50:45]
Caitlin Peterson
Look at this one.
- [50:46]
Interviewer
Incredible project. Yeah.
- [50:47]
Ariel Oken
Yeah. But I got work from that. And then as that built, built, I photographed those and then I had albums of like, different projects and like, it goes slowly. And I don't think you need to shoot everything at once. I don't think you need to, like, put all your eggs in one basket. I think shoot the things that you've. You're the most proud of and shoot them incredibly thoroughly. Shoot the work that you want to get more of. Like, if you don't want to get X, don't shoot X. But if you want Y, shoot Y. Because what you shoot and what gets out in the world is what you're going to get inquiries for.
- [51:18]
Interviewer
I'm totally stuck on this idea of saving that money over time, over the life cycle of the project. Is that something you're building in? When you think about kind of the, the income your firm is going to be making from this job, are you thinking about, okay, overhead for my team?
- [51:33]
Ariel Oken
Yeah.
- [51:33]
Interviewer
You know, paying the rent, also paying for the photo shoot.
- [51:37]
Ariel Oken
The photo shoots, the sales tax. You know, like, we save sales tax in a separate account now so that it's not touched. I think you have to kind of like at the outset of the year, like make a list of the things that you want to invest in. We also have like, investing years and non investing years. Right. Like, we're not shooting every single year. We just came off two years of a ton of shooting because of my book. I mean, we just shot one more project this past fall. And then it just kind of happens to be like where our projects are right now that like, we won't be shooting for like at least a year because of like, we're in that phase where, like, nothing's ready yet. Which is nice because it gives us a breather, because it is expensive. I mean, it's a big investment. But it's a. But it's like the best investment you can make in your firm. Right. Because if you can show people really beautifully and creatively the type of work that you do, and you can take immersive photography that people are like, oh, wow, I want to live in, that work comes from that.
- [52:36]
Interviewer
You said you were doing your own social. What does that look like these days? And where do you see the value in engaging online?
- [52:44]
Ariel Oken
Well, there's tremendous value in engaging online. I mean, I think, I would say 99% of our clients have found us from social.
- [52:51]
Interviewer
So that's still the big engine for.
- [52:53]
Ariel Oken
You, social and press. And they kind of go hand in hand. Right. Like nowadays, if you get featured in press, like that goes on their Instagram. They tag you, then they look at your Instagram. You know, it's kind of. It's an ecosystem.
- [53:06]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [53:07]
Ariel Oken
So it's a big engine for us, for business. And fedmoreline and Aoi, like, the two Instagrams collaborate a lot and do things together. So, like, we'll share our digital stories on both platforms, we'll share our shopping stories on both platforms and then sharing like the behind the scenes and stuff, like, people like that. People like to see what a designer does and, you know, during their day and, you know, what they're sourcing and what it looks like to go to the D and D and what it looks like. You know, I think it's. It can seem like it's this kind of like very heavily veiled industry, particularly for people that aren't in it and are fascinated by it. And there's a lot of people that aren't in the industry that like, love it, you know, Totally. We see a lot of that at the summit. Like, people come who are just like design fans, which is fun. And so they love following people on social to get the behind the scenes of what it looks like to actually do that job. And sometimes people want a career pivot and that can inspire them. So that's been really fun. And just like, getting to know people on Instagram that have become real life friends is really cool too.
- [54:14]
Caitlin Peterson
When you look back on your business.
- [54:16]
Interviewer
What is one thing you know now that you wish you had known from the get go found in your firm?
- [54:23]
Ariel Oken
Oh, my God. I mean, I laugh because I just had a thought of. I was like 23. I had just started my firm 23 or 24, and I was still working at my day job and I didn't know to measure inside the door casing for.
- [54:37]
Interviewer
Oh, no.
- [54:38]
Ariel Oken
Custom SOPA of like, one room where it was going in. Like, we measured only one door casing, not all door casings, because of course.
- [54:45]
Interviewer
They'Re all the same, right?
- [54:47]
Ariel Oken
No, like, yeah. Yes. So, like, stupid me did that and then, you know, cut to the sofa doctor, like, taking apart this, like, very expensive custom upholstered sofa in the service entry of, like, my client's apartment. And I was, like, crying because we had never worked with the sofa doctor before. By the way, they're incredible. Like, you couldn't even tell what they were.
- [55:09]
Interviewer
It works out, but.
- [55:10]
Ariel Oken
Yeah, it works out, but, like, I made so many stupid mistakes. I think one of the things I always say this, but one of the things I wish I did was, was intern or work at a firm for a little bit. I couldn't because I was career pivoting in such a way that, like, I had already kind of started to build a business without really realizing I was doing it. And so to have taken a step back, I think wouldn't have made sense for me. But there were so many hard lessons and mistakes about, like, you know, measuring and things like that that I wish that I had known when I started my firm. Having that knowledge base that I would have had if I had been at a firm for a couple years would have saved me a lot of grief.
- [55:50]
Caitlin Peterson
What does success mean to you today?
- [55:52]
Ariel Oken
I honestly think it just means, like, feeling really purpose driven and happy at work. I think it's a gift to love what you do. As somebody who really did not like my corporate job that was not in design. So to wake up excited and enriched by your career every day is. Is like a blessing. So I would say if you feel excited by your work and you're not dreading it and you don't have the Sunday scaries and you're like, jazzed to go in on Monday, like, that's success to me.
- [56:21]
Caitlin Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, check out new products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're enjoying trade tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. If you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you. And you can email me@tradetalesusinessofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson, and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson.
- [57:00]
Interviewer
Thanks again for listening and I'll see.
- [57:02]
Caitlin Peterson
You back here next week.