Why Josh Greene’s favorite clients contribute creatively

Summary

Trade Tales Episode Summary: "Why Josh Greene’s Favorite Clients Contribute Creatively"

Released on October 23, 2024, "Trade Tales" hosted by Caitlin Petersen of Business of Home delves into the nuanced journeys of interior designers navigating the challenges of growing their firms. In this episode, Caitlin engages in a deep conversation with Josh Green and Katrina Hernandez, two accomplished designers who share their experiences in fostering creativity, establishing financial stability, setting meaningful goals, and defining their unique versions of success.

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1. Career Transitions into Design

The episode begins with a discussion about career shifts into the design industry. Josh Green recounts his transition from the media to design, inspired by his visit to the Art Institute and an exhibition on David Adler Haunt.

"I have to change careers and work in design, architecture, whatever that meant." (Josh Green, 03:58)

Katrina Hernandez echoes a similar sentiment, highlighting her early influences and the pivotal moments that steered her towards interior design.

"I had always loved beautiful houses... I have to change careers and work in design, architecture, whatever that meant." (Katrina Hernandez, 03:58)

2. Establishing Their Own Firms

Josh and Katrina discuss the inception of their design ventures. Josh explains his initial plans to return to school but ultimately decided to immerse himself directly into the design world.

"I started interning at a design firm... I dove straight into my new career." (Josh Green, 04:02)

Katrina shares her journey from working at Ralph Lauren in store design to freelance projects, eventually partnering with Josh at Sawyer Burson before launching Josh Green Design in 2018.

"I started working on international shop setups... It was incredible. It was a great experience and so much fun." (Katrina Hernandez, 04:41)

3. Business Operations and Financial Management

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the importance of robust business operations. Josh emphasizes the necessity of effective bookkeeping and understanding business rhythms for sustained success.

"Understanding the rhythms of your own business is essential to success." (Josh Green, 06:28)

Katrina highlights the shift from using basic tools like Excel to adopting industry-standard software such as Studio Designer, which has enhanced their project and financial management.

"Tracking everything in a detailed way... it's just organization basically." (Katrina Hernandez, 13:01)

4. Client Relationships and Decision-Making

Josh and Katrina explore strategies for managing client relationships, particularly in guiding clients through decision-making without causing overwhelm. Katrina likens the client relationship to dating, emphasizing the importance of mutual fit and clear communication.

"It's like dating... it just has to work." (Katrina Hernandez, 13:20)

Josh discusses his approach to being the decision-maker for clients, ensuring confidence and satisfaction in the design outcomes.

"They are looking for you to tell them what to do and to make decisions and to assure them with confidence." (Josh Green, 29:37)

5. Evolving Fee Structures

Addressing the evolution of their fee structures, Katrina critiques the traditional markup model prevalent in the industry. She advocates for a more transparent approach with a fixed design fee complemented by a reasonable purchasing fee.

"I do something a few years ago that works for me... I charge a flat fee plus a purchasing administrative fee." (Katrina Hernandez, 20:48)

Josh concurs, suggesting that a shift towards higher fixed fees and lower commissions could better align with current industry standards and client expectations.

"I'd rather load up the design fee that's fixed and be like, okay, you want to work with me?" (Josh Green, 23:00)

6. Team Building and Delegation

The discussion moves to team dynamics and the importance of building a reliable team to manage growing business demands. Katrina emphasizes hiring skilled individuals who can take on significant responsibilities, allowing for delegation and fostering team growth.

"One of my more recent hires is really good on Rhino and really good at 3D rendering... it's been really helpful." (Katrina Hernandez, 25:29)

Josh shares his experience with maintaining a small, efficient team, highlighting the balance between hands-on management and empowering team members.

"I trust her and the clients trust her... it's like a surrogate." (Josh Green, 31:01)

7. Product Collaborations and Expanding Business

Katrina delves into her ventures into product development, detailing collaborations with manufacturers and the challenges faced during the pandemic. She discusses the strategic importance of product lines in enhancing brand awareness and creating cohesive collections.

"I like creating collections that have a shared language and sensibility." (Katrina Hernandez, 42:15)

Josh complements this by highlighting how collaborations have benefited their businesses, providing both creative fulfillment and additional revenue streams.

"The collabs are good for brand awareness... and creating something together." (Josh Green, 42:05)

8. Press and Industry Recognition

Katrina shares insights on leveraging her background in media to cultivate press relationships, which has been instrumental in gaining recognition such as being featured in Architectural Digest's AD100 list.

"I knew how to cultivate a relationship with an editor and how to pitch something." (Katrina Hernandez, 35:18)

Josh adds that consistent quality and strategic self-presentation have played crucial roles in their industry acclaim.

"We're putting out work that looks good and is of a certain standard." (Josh Green, 35:06)

9. Defining Success

Towards the end of the episode, both designers articulate their personal definitions of success. For Katrina, it encompasses peer recognition, maintaining a stellar reputation, and achieving financial stability that allows for relaxation and long-term planning.

"Success for me means recognition by my peers, respect... and financial stability." (Katrina Hernandez, 43:54)

Josh concurs, emphasizing that success is not solely measured by accolades but also by the seamless operation and growth of the business.

"Understanding the rhythms of your own business... is a feeling, right?" (Josh Green, 12:03)

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Conclusion

This episode of "Trade Tales" offers a comprehensive look into the professional lives of Josh Green and Katrina Hernandez, highlighting their strategic approaches to business management, client relations, and creative collaborations. Through their shared experiences, listeners gain valuable insights into the dynamic world of interior design entrepreneurship, underscoring the importance of adaptability, clear communication, and strategic growth in achieving sustained success.

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For more insights and inspiring stories from the world of interior design, tune into future episodes of "Trade Tales" and follow Business of Home.

Transcript

[Josh Green]

They are looking for you to tell them what to do and to make decisions and to assure them with confidence.

[Katrina Hernandez]

That they're making smart decisions and that they're going to be happy in their space. I've realized like, a big part of this is being able to express that.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back for season six of the.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Show, where I'll be talking to interior.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Shifts that come with growing a design firm.

[Caitlin Peterson]

My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea, or a way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer who took lessons from working for storied firms in retail and residential design to launch his own venture, first with a partner and then on his own. He describes how going solo forced him to take a fresh leap look at his business's financials and how his forays into developing his own product lines have opened the door to a whole new world of opportunities. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. This podcast is sponsored by Regina Andrew. Born and raised in South Detroit, the brand's roots run deep in the city it calls home. Known as the Paris of the Midwest, the city's style and character have shaped who the brand is, what it makes, and how it makes it. Regina Andrews Pursuit for Inspiration has taken the company across the world to deliver the materials and forms that drive its designs. Crafted with a passionate attention to detail and a quest to deliver the unexpected, Regina Andrews products, much like the journey that inspired them, each have a story. Take 15% off your next purchase by using the code TRADETALES15 at checkout now through December 31st. And don't forget to visit Regina Andrew this month at High Point Market or [e-mail] Room and board is a trusted resource for furnishing homes with modern artisan crafted furniture and decor. Now, businesses and industry professionals are also turning to them to help furnish offices, hotels, lounges, multifamily housing and other commercial spaces. When you work with Room and Board for business, you get access to exclusive services like 5 or 10 year product warranties, customized delivery solutions and so much more. Visit roomandboard.com business for ideas and inspiration for your next project and to learn more.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I had always loved beautiful houses. You know my mom was into Design and decor and kind of did, you know, interior design projects when she was younger. Also, I grew up in a place in Southern California called San Marino, which is a very like architecturally rich part of Los Angeles. And a lot of my friends had like these incredible houses. And so it was always something that I liked as a young person. My first job was in the fashion world. I was working for Women's Wear Daily. I was a reporter covering the business.

[Josh Green]

Side of the fashion world.

[Katrina Hernandez]

It was a great job.

[Josh Green]

So fun.

[Katrina Hernandez]

So I was in Chicago on business. I ended up going to the Art Institute and there was an exhibition on David Adler Haunt.

[Josh Green]

And I was so taken with those.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Houses and I was so excited. And I remember leaving that exhibition and thinking to myself, I have to change careers and work in design, architecture, whatever that meant.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's Josh Green. Before long, he quit his media job.

[Fred Nicholaus]

And started interning at a design firm.

[Caitlin Peterson]

At first he thought going back to.

[Fred Nicholaus]

School was the logical next step.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But a stint at a summer program made him second guess sticking around for a design degree. Instead, he dove straight into his new career.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Through my fashion connections. I got a job at Ralph Lauren in store design. That was a really good middle ground.

[Josh Green]

For me because it was still one.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Foot in the fashion world and then one foot in this new sort of design world. I started working on international shop and shops, so the department store corners in Europe, you know, I would design those spaces and then fly over and install them. And then I started working eventually for.

[Josh Green]

The company owned retail stores which was.

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, the big flagships. And the biggest thing I worked on was the Boulevard St. Germain store in Paris, which was a huge major project. Really fun, really interesting. You know, we worked with the best people. Everything was the best. It was incredible. It was a great experience and so much fun.

[Josh Green]

And then I came back to New.

[Katrina Hernandez]

York and my next store was the.

[Josh Green]

Rugby store at Short Hills Mall, New Jersey.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And I thought, you know what? I think I've done everything that I can do here.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Josh was beginning to set his sights on something bigger and luckily he already had his own creative project in the works.

[Katrina Hernandez]

So I started doing little freelance projects, little freelance residential projects to make, you know, money on the side. And I liked it. You know, I kind of thought maybe I'd want to work for myself one day, but I wasn't totally sure. And so I ended up leaving New York and moving to LA to work for Michael Smith. I worked on amazing projects with Michael and learned a ton. I just never felt right in la.

[Josh Green]

I came back to New York and.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I worked at Sawyer Burson. I ran their interiors department and met a woman that I worked with there. And then we left and started a firm and then did that for four or five years. And then kind of Josh Green Design as we know it today really started in 2018.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I wanted to talk to Josh about how he shaped his firm's back office after going solo, why better bookkeeping practices and understanding the rhythms of his business is so essential to success, how he's implemented a fee structure that better aligns with how the design industry operates today and the best strategies for bringing clients into the decision making process without inviting overwhelm.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Why did you want to have a partner in the beginning and what shifted? I guess that made you realize being solo was a better fit for you?

[Josh Green]

I didn't think too much about it.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Katrina Hernandez and I met working together at Sawyer Burson. Yeah, I think we were like, we work well together. I didn't know, even just for myself where that position at Sawyer Burson would go. And I don't know, it just seemed like it was a great idea. I was like, why not? And, you know, we worked really well together. We had a lot of fun and it was a great experience. And I think, you know, starting something is always very scary and to do that with another person, you know, can be great. And it was.

[Fred Nicholaus]

And you guys, I mean, you made a splash together. I feel like I remember just seeing you in press all the time.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Yeah, we were, you know, named ones.

[Josh Green]

To watch with Architectural Digest.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Yeah, I think we, you know, we were young and hustling and having a good time. So, yeah, it was a great, it was a great partnership at the beginning. And then I think just over time, like, I think we wanted different things. And she ended up relocating and then we, you know, went our own ways.

[Fred Nicholaus]

What did you want to focus on once you had just your own name on the business?

[Katrina Hernandez]

I feel like I've pretty much been doing the same thing since the beginning. I've, you know, I like to work. I love design. I like to, you know, I wanted to grow the business and keep, you know, getting bigger projects and, you know, I've expanded into products more recently. But that was something, you know, that wasn't something that I originally was like.

[Josh Green]

Oh, that's a goal of mine.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Right.

[Katrina Hernandez]

But I, I don't know, I just was like, I want to just keep growing and pushing and like seeing where this can go. But I think ultimately it stems from, from wanting bigger projects so you can do better work. That's really, ultimately, it's like I want to be buying the more interesting things. I want to be working with the more interesting artists, artisans or contractors or architects. I want to be, you know, buying, you know, the fabric just that I like, you know, obviously the clients have to like it too. But I just wanted, you know, I wanted to be able to refine my.

[Josh Green]

Ideas, have bigger ideas, push my ideas forward and work on bigger projects, bigger budgets. You know, it's just. It's a growth thing.

[Fred Nicholaus]

You came into launching your own firm with experience working for great companies. What did you pull from to launch your own business? Like, where were you looking for the systems, for the structure, for the processes as you went out on your own?

[Katrina Hernandez]

I think it's collective. I learned really good project management skills at Ralph Lauren, you know, because working in retail and especially with that brand.

[Josh Green]

You have to open a store on.

[Katrina Hernandez]

A day and that. And that store needs to look like it has existed always at that location. So you have to hustle and like, be organized and get everything done by a specific date. So that was always like. That was actually very helpful in terms of project management.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Yeah.

[Josh Green]

Which in residential, what I've come to.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Realize is, you know, like, clients make decisions, you know, if they make a.

[Josh Green]

Decision or they're not sure, and they put, it's fine, we can. We don't have.

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, I always say to my.

[Josh Green]

Clients, like, hey, you don't have to choose that today if you're not certain about it.

[Katrina Hernandez]

But these things have a lead time. And so if you don't make a decision that is something that might come late, that is a more like, realistic situation scenario.

[Josh Green]

In residential work.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Yeah, obviously we try to like, complete everything as much as possible for an.

[Josh Green]

Install and a handover to the client.

[Katrina Hernandez]

But, you know, there it's a sort of more. It's a little more gentle of a gentle process. So I think the project management stuff I learned about Ralph Lauren, I think.

[Josh Green]

Their processes were not.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Were not what I would looked to for, you know, it's a huge corporation. So, like, the way that you. Well, I'll just move forward. When I got to Michael's office is really like, you know, that is really a decorating business.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Yeah.

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, they are buying and selling, getting things from point A to point B.

[Josh Green]

And we were doing that Ralph Lauren too.

[Katrina Hernandez]

But like in the resident, it was, you know, it was such a big corporation and. But the way Michael's business is set up was really like how my business kind of runs. I use a lot of the same you know, I work on studio designer, which is, you know, kind of the industry standard for financial and project management software. And so I learned that there and then when I went to Sawyer Burson, I brought that to Sawyer Burson. They did not have, you know, actually it was, it was more like how Rick Lauren did. It was like, you know, like Excel. Tracking things in Excel spreadsheets is, is like a killer.

[Josh Green]

You can't scale that way.

[Katrina Hernandez]

It is not. You'll just doesn't work.

[Fred Nicholaus]

What are some of the most meaningful evolutions for you there?

[Katrina Hernandez]

I think having having the right team around, like my, my bookkeeping team and my accountant. But I do a lot of the day to day bookkeeping.

[Josh Green]

I'm very involved.

[Katrina Hernandez]

But I think also just like, also having your business for a long enough time where you sort of can look at historical data and just understand how.

[Josh Green]

It'S a feeling, right?

[Katrina Hernandez]

You like feel how the business, how the business is running. Like are we doing really well financially?

[Josh Green]

Are things soft?

[Katrina Hernandez]

Are things strong?

[Josh Green]

It's similar to how when I go.

[Katrina Hernandez]

On a job site, I can go to a job site, my job site or somebody else's job site that I just walk onto and you can kind of tell exactly where everything is at.

[Josh Green]

You can tell is this an organized.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Job or is this a messy job?

[Josh Green]

Is this a job that feels chaotic.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Or does this feel like really smooth? And then I can tell you exactly like where they are and like how.

[Josh Green]

Much time it would probably take to finish, right?

[Katrina Hernandez]

Just because I've had like so much time and experience on job sites of.

[Josh Green]

Varying sizes over the years.

[Katrina Hernandez]

So it's the same way in your business. Like I think you kind of just.

[Josh Green]

Understand the rhythms of your own business.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And I think like understanding my income statement and like really like kind of like getting into like how did I do last year? Like, and, but also tracking everything in a detailed way.

[Josh Green]

So when you look at your income.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Statement, it's like very clear and that everything's like super organized. It's just organization basically.

[Fred Nicholaus]

What are you looking for from a client or from a project today?

[Caitlin Peterson]

What makes you say yes to a job?

[Josh Green]

Big budgets.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I don't know. It's funny, I think of it like dating a lot of times. Like, you know, when you date somebody and it works, it just kind of works. So when I meet somebody and then.

[Josh Green]

It advances to, you know, I send them an agreement or whatever, usually it.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Just like there's not a lot of pushback on the fees or the, or the budget. If things start getting too like we're not clearly, like, we're not on the same page. Then it's like dating. It's like, doesn't feel right.

[Josh Green]

It feels a little off.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And so I like when, you know, I'm not a hard seller, I don't.

[Josh Green]

Try and go after business in the same way.

[Katrina Hernandez]

You can't, like, go after somebody, you know, in a relationship if they're not interested. So it's the same with clients. It just has to. Has to work.

[Fred Nicholaus]

When someone inquires what is sort of the process that you're moving them through to assess a good fit, and when does money come up in that conversation?

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, usually if somebody reaches out.

[Josh Green]

To email, I'm like, oh, well, thank you for reaching out.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Like, you know, would you like to. Initially, I got to know, like, okay, what is the floor plan?

[Josh Green]

Like, do you have a link to the apartment?

[Katrina Hernandez]

Like, is this even like a. You try to figure out the main outline of the apartment. Like, okay, where is it? How much, you know, how big is it? What do you want to do? What's the scope?

[Josh Green]

All of that.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Like, what. Have you worked with a designer before?

[Fred Nicholaus]

Are you doing all of that via email?

[Katrina Hernandez]

Yeah, usually. Or. Or you just kind of try. I just try and get on a call. Yeah. I mean, usually I'll be like, hey, can you send me? You know, sometimes they'll tell me, or they'll, you know, usually people are like, yeah, we've. We have, like, we've closed or we're.

[Josh Green]

About to close, or our board package.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Is in, or we're like, you know.

[Josh Green]

We'Re about to break ground.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Or, you know, ideally, I would love to be included from the beginning, I think, you know, I would love to know, like, what apartments are you looking at? That. That I think is ideal, but to gauge it. Yeah, I think, like, you gotta. You gotta just be ready to move forward, I think.

[Fred Nicholaus]

How do you talk about budget and about what's realistic, what the realistic costs of working with you are going to be?

[Josh Green]

I try to have a very clear.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Like, an initial phone call. I charge a flat fee plus a purchasing administrative fee. Like, it's very simple.

[Josh Green]

Then they ask, well, what's your flat fee?

[Katrina Hernandez]

It's like, well, okay, that depends.

[Fred Nicholaus]

That depends on a lot. Yeah.

[Josh Green]

Yeah, it depends on the scope, the.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Budget, the timeline, you know, many different things. And then I try to have a very, like, an initial thing.

[Josh Green]

Like, that's a very easy structure.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I try also, like, I like my business to be very straightforward. Like, I like to do everything the same for each Project.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Yeah.

[Katrina Hernandez]

So all my file, like the way my project folders or everything is exactly the same in each project, you know, so we, we file everything kind of the same way. We like the way we, you know, do site visit photos. I guess, you know, the dates are.

[Josh Green]

All the same, the way we list everything.

[Katrina Hernandez]

So I try to be really consistent and I'm.

[Josh Green]

And it's easy, it's straightforward but you.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Know, you have to, you kind of.

[Josh Green]

Had to set that up originally and.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Figure out the way you like to work.

[Josh Green]

And that's something that just evolves sort of organically. But I think having being sort of.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Type A and organized from the beginning.

[Josh Green]

Has been very helpful.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Yeah.

[Katrina Hernandez]

So. And when do I talk about money? I think, you know, you try and.

[Josh Green]

Figure out like, well, how much are we spending?

[Katrina Hernandez]

Like, is this realistic for what I want to be doing?

[Josh Green]

And for, you know, you came to.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Me because you see these images and because, you know, we're, we're creating these.

[Josh Green]

Spaces that look a certain way and.

[Katrina Hernandez]

So to, to achieve that we need to spend a certain, you know, amount of money. That's sort of just the, the way it is and doesn't mean that there aren't projects that, you know, I took on a small project recently which was.

[Josh Green]

You know, probably my smallest project in a long time.

[Katrina Hernandez]

It was somebody that I knew, a single guy and I knew him socially and I don't know, just something about.

[Josh Green]

The way he approached me and the space itself.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I was like, I can make this work. I think I can, I think I can do something here. And so I didn't, I felt like.

[Josh Green]

Okay, even though it's a small project.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I felt like it was definitely, it.

[Josh Green]

Was just going to work and turns.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Out it's really cool. We're going to be installing it in November and I really like it and we've really, it's been a great little project, super fun and it's kind of nice to have different scales of projects. Like, you know, I'm working on a townhouse that's going to, you know, I think we're going to start construction in.

[Josh Green]

Maybe November, December and that's probably an 18 month, you know, project schedule. And we've already been working on it for a while and it's a lot, right.

[Fred Nicholaus]

To have something like, to that, that win that sense of it, like, oh, we, we finished. This is pretty amazing sometimes, right?

[Katrina Hernandez]

You also have a staff that is like, you know, you don't you want them to be like learning and growing like on the job. And so it Was like, to have a project that was a little bit smaller to where I don't have to, like, be so involved on every detail.

[Josh Green]

You know, I still am, but I see everything. But, you know, allowing your team to.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Kind of, like, the practice of, like, running things, I think is really helpful for their career development.

[Josh Green]

And it's nice to also, just in terms of cash flow, like, you're kind.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Of, like, keeping things moving.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Yeah.

[Katrina Hernandez]

It's also kind of like, determine. It's also, you know, informs, like, how I'm gonna, you know, my fees and my fee structure. So.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Yeah.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And you want to, like, make sure.

[Josh Green]

You'Re on the same page.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Like, it's like, if you. You're, like, thinking, oh, well, this is a similar.

[Josh Green]

This other project I did, and, you know, that that client's been X.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And then that the, you know, you know, prospective client is like. Is like, oh, yeah, I want in. I want to spend half that. Yeah, right. Like, you're kind of like, I don't know. I don't know. I can do that. So then, you know, you know, I've definitely. You definitely have conversations in the initial conversation, and, you know, I'm like, oh.

[Josh Green]

We'Re just nowhere even. You don't want to be gentle, and.

[Katrina Hernandez]

You don't want to make. You want to shame somebody for, like, not having a realistic expectation. Or I'll be like, hey, I think, you know, here's a. Here's a number or here's a proposal. And then they're like, maybe they say, like, oh, that's really hoping we could get it down a little bit. And then I'm like, okay, I'll sharpen my pencil. And then I go back and, you know, sharpen my pencil. And I think also, too, now I'm getting more clear about, like, we have to, like, I think now the more budgets that I do, I really put in realistic numbers for, like, window treatments. And I'm like, I'd say from the beginning, like, this just is the number, and it's. I know it's crazy, but that's just what it costs, and it's super important, and it's not something that I'm willing to, you know, bend on.

[Caitlin Peterson]

American manufacturers make more than 90% of room and board's modern furniture and decor, which helps support businesses and communities across the country, while also reducing the distance items travel to get to your next project. Using a combination of traditional construction techniques and innovative technology, each room and board piece is built to last by experienced craftspeople. Visit roomandboard.com business for project inspiration and then connect with the room and board for business team to access tailored services for industry professionals.

[Fred Nicholaus]

How have you approached the fees for the firm's work? Has that evolved over time for you or have you really stuck with this approach and what informed that decision?

[Katrina Hernandez]

I did something a few years ago that works for me. So this whole idea of charging 30, 35%, 40% on like markup and having all of your, you know, a lot of your cash flow come from the purchasing phase of the project. I find that is an older business model that harkens back to a time when like the 70s and 80s when.

[Josh Green]

59Th street and 60th street and the.

[Katrina Hernandez]

D and D, you know, were very trade only. And you would go in and they.

[Josh Green]

Were like the retail prices and then.

[Katrina Hernandez]

The designer price was like 50 off, you know, and that's how everything was.

[Josh Green]

So if somebody came in, if a client came in by themselves or if.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Somebody came in off the street, you.

[Josh Green]

Know, there would be science, trade only.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And then they would, you know, the retail price and they never knew what the, what the designer person there was.

[Josh Green]

Like, oh, to get the real price.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I gotta work with a designer. And there was like, you know, a structure in place from the dealers and the, between the dealers and the, and the designers. And that made sense to be like, you know, so I, I get, you know, I get you net pricing and then I charge, you know, 30% on top of it.

[Josh Green]

But you're still quote, unquote, below retail getting a deal.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Yeah, you're getting a deal.

[Josh Green]

And, and I am only the, I'm.

[Katrina Hernandez]

The only one who has access to these dealers. They won't sell to you. You have to go through me. And I think that made a lot of sense. But I then, but I think now, you know, you're lucky that you get 15%. I just don't think it sits well if somebody's getting, you know, Crate and.

[Josh Green]

Barrel bed for their kids room and.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Then, then the designer charges like 35% on top of it. It just like kind of doesn't make sense. Yeah, but I still think, you know.

[Josh Green]

You still need, in terms of cash.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Flow, you want to have, you know, you still want to have a commission because you know, you are like running a lot of money through your business. So I think that having a fee is fine, but I would rather load up the design fee that's fixed and be like, okay, you want to work with me?

[Josh Green]

It's going to cost, you know, X.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And I will stick to that number.

[Josh Green]

Here'S the scope that's included in that number.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And then we have a smaller commission. So my Commission is only 15%, but my flat design fees were much higher.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Did you feel a difference when you started presenting that model to clients?

[Katrina Hernandez]

I think it's just easier to say, yeah, I charge a flat fee and then I have a 15% purchasing fee on everything that comes through my office. That's the line that I say, yeah, now it works, now I feel it. But I need to like, you know, the way to grow is like, I.

[Josh Green]

Probably should be at 20.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And then also, you know, the design.

[Josh Green]

The flat design fee should be higher.

[Katrina Hernandez]

But like anything, right? Like any business is going to, you know, try to increase their, you know, their profits and their rate.

[Fred Nicholaus]

What is the cadence of your billing? You strike me as someone who has that very buttoned up and the client knows exactly what to expect.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Yeah, like we have, you know, when the flat fees are broken out over the course of the project and we, you know, kind of bill and then.

[Josh Green]

And then the stuff that we buy.

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, is just sort of rolling. It's like, okay, we, you know, we have a meeting and you know, we have these things we got to order and here's all, you know, then we send them a bill for all of that stuff. So there's like two tracks. There's like the stuff, like the goods and then there's also like the design fees.

[Fred Nicholaus]

You mentioned your team earlier and giving them a chance to get more experience on a job. How have you built your team as.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Your business has evolved?

[Josh Green]

I've never been more than four, which.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Is where I'm at right now. So I've, I have four employees and I don't know, you just kind of like, again, like I was talking before about the rhythms you kind of based on the workflow and the complexity of the projects, you grow as you need it. I would say I'm. I would say I'm pretty conservative. Like, I, I try to do as much as I can. Like, I run, you know.

[Josh Green]

Yes, I have a bookkeeper and I.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Have, you know, accountant, but I do a lot of the, like day to day bookkeeping, you know, where I'm receiving.

[Josh Green]

Client funds and applying those funds to.

[Katrina Hernandez]

The, to the orders and wiring and doing stuff like that. I mean, I do a lot of that and maybe I've gotten more efficient at scheming, you know, and then I let everybody execute. One of my more recent hires is really good on Rhino and really good at 3D rendering. And it's been really Helpful to work through ideas and to kind of push your ideas.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Was that something you were looking for or is that a happy accident as a result of making a hire?

[Katrina Hernandez]

We would do it from time to time with one of these, like third party rendering.

[Josh Green]

It's pretty helpful.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And then recently I've been working on.

[Josh Green]

You know, this townhouse with Elizabeth Roberts office.

[Katrina Hernandez]

But we, we had, did the furniture plans and then we rendered them, you know, the different options and kind of like took the client through this Rhino model and you know, and they like both. They still like these two options. You know, I think they ended up picking one, obviously, but, but. And I liked both too. I was kind of stumped along with them. I was like, I like both of these. I don't know which one's going to be better. So, you know, you talk it through and they say, okay, well, this one's going to have more art or this one's going to have more of a, like seating that's better for a party.

[Josh Green]

And this one's more of a formal seating arrangement.

[Katrina Hernandez]

So you just kind of work through everything. And you know, that's an example where it's like, I like both. I'm happy with both. I'm gonna have fun designing, you know, like choosing everything for both. So I don't know, you tell me what you like. You know, you have to be, you have to be a part of it. Like, I don't know, I don't need to own every decision. Like, so I, you know, the clients have to, you know, I want them to make a decision.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Are you coming with options for every selection or where are you giving them choices?

[Katrina Hernandez]

I think I've gotten better at giving more concise choices. I think I used to, I mean, I like a lot of options and usually I like most of them, but also like working through that editing process in front of them I think is.

[Josh Green]

With them and in front of them.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I think is helpful.

[Fred Nicholaus]

What do you mean by that?

[Katrina Hernandez]

So, like, I'll be like, all right, here's like five lamp options or here's 10 layup options, you know, that we printed out from first dibs or whatever. Or I saw this in Connecticut, I saw this in Paris. And then we saw.

[Josh Green]

These are some other.

[Katrina Hernandez]

This is from Carlos de la Puente. And then these are like four others from, you know, first dibs. You know, we'll have them all printed out. And then we're like talking about in the meeting. And then I'm like, okay, yeah, no, I don't like this one. Like now That I see it again with the others, I'm like, no, that one's out. So, like, that, you know, I'll like, edit out or nix it and then get down to like, three. And then, you know, be like, okay, which one do you like?

[Fred Nicholaus]

That's gotta be so cool for a client to see your thought process.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Yeah, I think so. You know, and then it's a discussion and it's a joint thing, but I.

[Josh Green]

Mean, yeah, for a big project, it just depends on the client, right?

[Katrina Hernandez]

Like, and sometimes they'll be like, I don't know. You choose. I remember I had a. I had a client once, and she was like, I don't. I don't care about the pillows. I'm like, great, we'll do it.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Yeah. How often are you presenting? Is this, you know, a periodic check in to make a handful of decisions, or are you really pushing clients to make a lot of decisions in one sitting?

[Katrina Hernandez]

I think you can only get so much done. I only want to get so much done. I'm like, you know, I have other projects. I can't. Or then, you know, these very minute things, like betting. You know, I'm like, oh, my God, I can't do that today. Like, let's do that. We'll do that the next meeting. You know, I had a client installed with a client like, this last summer in D.C. and I remember saying to him at the beginning of the project.

[Josh Green]

Like, just so you know, like, there's.

[Katrina Hernandez]

This is. You're going to get decision fatigue. Like, this is. These projects especially. It was a big renovation at 10,000 square foot house. It's a lot of decisions. And I think over the years I've built up a tolerance for that.

[Josh Green]

And I like it.

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, I like doing it.

[Josh Green]

And now I'm a little bit more.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Like, I would say, confident. You know, as you get older and you have more experience, you.

[Josh Green]

You.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Your confidence grows, and you're like, okay, this is right. Or I'm. I think what's happening now is I'm like, yeah, that table, great.

[Josh Green]

Whereas I'm.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I used to feel like I'm not.

[Josh Green]

Sure if that's the right side table for the living room.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I'm like, no, it'll, like, yes. Could I spend all day looking, you.

[Josh Green]

Know, for the perfect side table? Yes. And it still might be that table that we.

[Katrina Hernandez]

That they showed me, you know, from the beginning. So I. I'm a little bit more like, you know, I know that if we're close that it's. That it's right and it's really more just about being smart and effective and efficient in your decisions.

[Josh Green]

If they are looking for you to tell them what to do and to make decisions and to assure them with.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Confidence that they're making smart decisions and that they're going to be happy in their space. And I've realized a big part of this is being able to express that.

[Fred Nicholaus]

We talk a lot on the show about how a principal's role evolves as their team grows. But you also said earlier that, you know, your clients really are working closely with you. Where do they see you? Where do they see your team? And how are you thinking about delegating as you bring more employees in?

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, as. As employees kind of understand how you communicate what you communicate about to the client. You know, you can see, you know.

[Josh Green]

I think a client will gravitate towards.

[Katrina Hernandez]

One of your employees and maybe sort of be, what do you think? Or, you know, if they start to, like, sort of trust in the, you.

[Josh Green]

Know, in my team as well as.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Me, then it sort of opens the door for the project manager or the designer to steer a little bit more, like, take the wheel a little bit more. So it's just something that happens organically as well as, like, you know, we don't have an employee who has been with me for, I think, five years or something, and, you know, you know, she's just been. She just understands and she knows, like, and she's super talented, and so it works. Like, she's a very, like, you know.

[Josh Green]

I trust her and the clients trust.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Her, and I know it's like a surrogate.

[Fred Nicholaus]

When you look ahead, where do you see room for growth and what do you want your business to become?

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, I always said, like, I just want to be respected by my peers, and I do feel that. I do feel like I have that. It was funny. This morning, I came upstate with my friend Zach. Zach and Fox, and I was waiting for him. I was getting a coffee, and this guy came up to me, and he was like, hey, I really like your work. He's like, I just started my own firm.

[Josh Green]

He was so sweet, and it was.

[Katrina Hernandez]

A very nice thing. And I kind of forget, like, oh, I guess I've sort of been doing this, and I've gotten a certain level of, you know, here you are. You're asking me to be on a.

[Josh Green]

Podcast, right, talking about my business.

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, I definitely think as I get older, I'm turning 45 next month to. What's my retirement going to look like? Like, where. Where do we go from here. One thing I've always wanted is to find an architect. I had this, I, I had this like fantasy. I don't know if it's necessarily possible or necessary, but to find an architect that I really connect with that's, you know, in similar age that's doing similar types of projects and really like collaborate where it's like, oh, yeah, that we're.

[Josh Green]

We'Re doing a renovation.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Like we work with this guy or.

[Fred Nicholaus]

This woman, like to push the envelope together.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Yeah. And also so I can sort of like take that off, like to enhance. Because I find that like we really.

[Josh Green]

Enhance the architecture and I want the.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Architecture to really enhance the decor. And so that's sort of been a fantasy because I don't want to do it and I don't want to do it in house. I don't want to, like, you know, I have ideas and I like to collaborate, but I don't want to, like, I don't want to do. I don't want to do an H vac, like plan.

[Fred Nicholaus]

No, no, no.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And I did this project on Park Avenue where we basically did everything and.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Like the architect stamped it.

[Josh Green]

Yeah.

[Katrina Hernandez]

We had an architect of record and then we had a really. We worked with Hummel as a contractor who, you know, is really talented and.

[Josh Green]

High end and we have a good.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Working relationship with them.

[Josh Green]

And so I felt that part of.

[Katrina Hernandez]

The apartment was like, wasn't so big that I felt like it was going to bury us.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Yeah.

[Katrina Hernandez]

But it was an example where I was like, no, I think we can do it.

[Josh Green]

And it, and it turned out beautifully.

[Katrina Hernandez]

It was a beautiful apartment and. But we did every, you know, we did every detail and we. I was just remember being like looking at the, the H VAC diagrams and being like, oh boy, why, why did I do this? But I can say we walked through that apartment and like every little detail. The crowns, the casings, the bathroom, all bathrooms, the power, everything, you know, the slight reconfiguration, the kitchen cabinetry, you know, everything was us. But I would like to kind of have an architectural scope that's done by that office, by a different office. I think.

[Caitlin Peterson]

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[Fred Nicholaus]

The industry has one very, I think, specific way of measuring success, and I think you have achieved it. You know, you're on Aldecor's A list. You're on that 8100 list. And I think so many people I talk to on this show and outside of the show are really striving for that. Can you talk a little bit about what it changed for you or if you felt a shift?

[Josh Green]

I always say it's not one of these things.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I mean, Certainly being on AD100 was like, I can't believe that. And I thought, like, oh, that would be really cool.

[Josh Green]

Yes. Would that be a goal of mine?

[Katrina Hernandez]

Sure, I would love that. But I kind of thought it would be like, later.

[Josh Green]

I thought, maybe one day.

[Katrina Hernandez]

That's a realistic possibility. I think it all goes back to, like, my first job at Women's Wear Daily. I worked in magazines, right? And so I kind of understood how it worked. And some people, I kind of knew how to get press because I had worked in it.

[Josh Green]

And so I think I had a.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Little bit of a leg up in that sense where I knew how to cultivate a relationship with an editor and how to pitch something and how to respond when, you know, they need something. So I think that was very helpful in understanding how that works. And then, I think, you know, you are try to. I try to be positive. I try to look cute. I try to, like, put out work that looks good that, you know, is.

[Josh Green]

Of a certain standard.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And also in the way that I photograph the work, I try not to be egotistical if, you know, if people pass on it, you know, and like, not every project people want, but I also try and pitch things that I think are kind of interesting and appropriate.

[Josh Green]

Also, like, I've only recently started working.

[Katrina Hernandez]

With a press person. I kind of used to just.

[Josh Green]

I've done it all myself, and I've.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Been always like a kind of roll up my sleeves and do it myself type of person. And I think they like that, you know, like the editors, they want to be dealing directly with the person. But I also, I'm also in New York.

[Josh Green]

I'm in, you know, I'm at these events.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Like, I'm at the showroom events or the magazine events or the, you know.

[Josh Green]

I'm in all of that. Right. Whereas I think it would be really.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Hard if you were, you know, lived in Nashville, for example, or something.

[Fred Nicholaus]

You mentioned just starting to work with a press person. What are you learning from delegating some of that?

[Katrina Hernandez]

I think it's more about strategy and helping me kind of just plan and having a really, like, trusted, you know, ear to bounce things off of and plan for.

[Josh Green]

And also, as I've gotten it more.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Into product, you know, I'm not aware of, like, what the Wall Street Journal is, you know, story is looking for for, you know, bathroom design or whatever. So that's helpful, too, for the product side of things.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Tell me a little bit more about.

[Caitlin Peterson]

The product side of things.

[Fred Nicholaus]

What appealed to you about that at the beginning and how have you sort of navigated that space?

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, it wasn't something that I thought about a lot. I didn't plan to do product dowel. You know, the people that I worked with on my first furniture collection approached.

[Josh Green]

Me and they were doing these collaborations.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And I kind of, like, was like, yeah, that sounds cool. And I really enjoy, you know, so I was really a fun new avenue to go down in terms of how.

[Josh Green]

Do you express yourself?

[Katrina Hernandez]

And I'm good at concepting and good at kind of, like, creating a collection of things that has, like, a shared, like, language and creating also, you know, I. Because we, you know, I've been working, you know, drawing floor plans. Like, I knew that there were things I remember with that collection. I knew that there was really started with proportions. I knew that I was like, I always have a hard time finding, like, a table that is, like, 27 inches by 27 inches by 27, you know, 24 inches high. And I knew that I, like, you know, if I do two sofas, you know, that are nine feet on each side, I need, like, a big coffee.

[Josh Green]

Table in the middle, which would be.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Like, 60 by 60 inches.

[Josh Green]

So I had these proportions of, like.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Things that I kind of would always draw into a floor plan and then would have to search for. So that's where I started with that. I, like, it was really about proportions. So I started working with Dow on that. It was super fun. It launched, like, right when the pandemic happened. So kind of, like, didn't get the sort. And then the supply chain was, like, a disaster, we all know. And so it just, like, didn't, like, didn't go.

[Fred Nicholaus]

I remember putting that into our guide to market. It was like the market no one went to.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Yeah, I know. And we didn't present it there then. Yeah, we didn't.

[Josh Green]

And then I presented it like, maybe we had designed the whole booth, and.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I made this Cool booth. But it was all teal. I had like teal wall to wall.

[Josh Green]

Carpeting and teal walls. And I made a logo for the.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Collection that was specific to that. And you know, I made this cool lookbook and videos and it was really.

[Josh Green]

It was a really fun way. It was a really fun project to work on.

[Katrina Hernandez]

It was a great collaboration, you know.

[Josh Green]

But I do still work with Dowel. They make all my medicine cabinets.

[Katrina Hernandez]

They're my, the manufacturer for my medicine cabinets.

[Josh Green]

So I launched that, which was sort.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Of a total, sort of random, totally random category. But it was an idea that I'd.

[Josh Green]

Had for a long time. We were talking about when we were.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Designing all the initial collection. We did a mirror, we added a mirror to the collection. But I didn't think about Medicine Cat. I don't know, I just hadn't connected the dots.

[Josh Green]

And then I was like, one day it clicked.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I'm like, oh, I want to do this, but I want to do it myself. And I. It's not, I don't want it to be a licensed collection. So I've been developing that and it's almost done, so that's kind of cool. And then I did, I launched wallcovering, which was again, my own thing where I found the surface designer and had these ideas and worked with somebody in.

[Josh Green]

Europe to work on the designs.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And then, you know, then we have, you know, worked with partner showrooms around the country to distribute it.

[Josh Green]

And then conversely, I have my rug.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Collection with Mark Phillips, which was a collaboration, you know, that's a licensed business where. And then I have two upcoming collabs.

[Josh Green]

One with Khufre out of Dallas, like Ham Logan Fabrics.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And that's been really fun. So those are coming out. And then I have a collaboration with.

[Josh Green]

Lawson Fenning, which is a new furniture collaboration. And Lawson Vetting was a really good partner with the Dowel stuff. They loved the collection, they bought it.

[Katrina Hernandez]

They sold a ton of it. But I think they, I think it's just, I don't know. So then when they approached me, it.

[Josh Green]

Was kind of a no brainer.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I was like, oh my God, I would love to. So it was another one of those things, you know, even when they approached me, I'm like, who me? You know, like really like, okay, yeah, yeah. But I've known, I've known those guys since I was in my mid-20s. So it's, you know, it's been really cool. And then I'm helping them. They're opening a showroom in New York on Lafayette Street. And so I'm working with them, collaborating with them on the design of that space and helping them get that up and running, like, designed and opened. And then I think the collection will launch in, like, January.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Is it additive to you? Just from a creative exercise, from a revenue perspective, from kind of a, you know, sharing your esthetic view, like, what were you looking for from each of these partnerships or collaborations as you moved into product?

[Josh Green]

I think, you know, look, I think the collabs are good for brand awareness.

[Katrina Hernandez]

For truly collaborating on, like, creating something.

[Josh Green]

Together with somebody else who has an.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Expertise in a certain category. The other thing I like about products is that, well, one, I didn't realize I'm good at it. I like creating, you know, groups of things that, you know, I like creating collections that are through. Filtered through my, like, sensibility. And I think, you know, yeah, I have these disparate product categories. But, like, if you put everything in.

[Josh Green]

A room together, whether it's my stuff with Dowel or the stuff with Lawson Fenning or the stuff with Khufri or.

[Katrina Hernandez]

My wallpaper or the messenger, it's like.

[Josh Green]

It all makes sense together.

[Katrina Hernandez]

And so maybe there's some possibility down the road of some. Something that really does sort of show it all together. I'm not sure and haven't really thought much about it. But I do try to, you know, make sure that everything that I'm putting out in the world, like, makes sense.

[Josh Green]

With the other things and with the.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Work that I'm doing for my residential clients.

[Fred Nicholaus]

Yeah.

[Josh Green]

And I use some of that product.

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, I think the Waldorf is an example where, you know, I used.

[Josh Green]

Friends Pro and my own apartment.

[Katrina Hernandez]

You know, I use. Actually, my own apartment's probably a better example where I really used a lot of my own things and my own ideas and it all kind of works together, but I can also pivot it for a client. So. But ultimately I want to make money at it. And so now I've broken out, like.

[Josh Green]

On my income statement.

[Katrina Hernandez]

I have. What is. What is the. I have my products all broken out by categories, you know, by wallpapering, by the medicine cabinets, by the rugs, by any. If there's a collaboration, like, I get it broken out on my income statement. So I can really see how the products are doing on their own in terms of revenue as well as, you know, how each individual one does. And I also like that if in the future, and I don't want to.

[Josh Green]

Work as much or something that can.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Still keep generating revenue, what does success mean to you? Today, success for me means, like, I think recognition by my peers, respect by my peers in the industry. I think is important, that I have a nice reputation of being like a nice person to work for, you know, to work with and put up really good work. And then I think financial stability. If everything's like, good and smooth and, you know, everything's running and we got great projects and I see a long, like, Runway ahead of me, I feel I can actually, like, relax.

[Caroline Burke]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening.

[Katrina Hernandez]

Before you go, if you'd like to.

[Caroline Burke]

Keep up with the latest design industry news, more great podcasts, check out new products or browse job openings. Head on over to businessofhome.com if you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share. I'd love to hear from you and you can email [e-mail] finally, if you're enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson with Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you again in two weeks.