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Trade Tales
Why Zoe Feldman doesn't believe in complete transparency [Rebroadcast]
00:48:19
Zoe Feldman on the surprising piece of advice that prompted her to rethink her firm’s team size, and why she insists that clients don’t really want full transparency.
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- [00:03]
Zoe Feldman
I am a firm believer that people only think they want full transparency. Nobody in the retail world shows you their overhead and how much they're making. Nobody. That's like insane. And why we think that this is smart in our business is like crazy, I think.
- [00:20]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales.
- [00:26]
Interviewer
As we wrap up the eighth season.
- [00:27]
Caitlin Peterson
Of the show, we're taking a break this month to dream up even more great stories for you you about building a better design business. In the meantime, I picked out one of my favorite episodes from the show's archive to share with you today. It's my conversation with Washington, D.C. based designer Zoe Feldman from 2023, where we talked about why she introduced a scaled down design offering for clients who just want good advice. As you're weighing the types of work that you want to take on in the new year, I hope Zoe's ideas on how to service clients at every level offer a fresh burst of inspiration. We'll be back with an exciting batch of new episodes starting in February, but for now, enjoy the show. Hey, designers. It's a new year, which means it's the perfect time to start thinking about what you really want from your business and also how you're going to get there. If you're ready to get some real momentum behind those goals, consider becoming a BoH insider. It's a membership program tailored to the needs of busy design professionals that gives you exclusive access to b O h reporting as well as a weekly curriculum of online workshops led by some of the industry's most respected voices. Even better, you'll also get access to a rich archive of past courses so you can always find the guidance you need no matter what challenges you're navigating in your business. Explore the benefits of becoming a BoH Insider today@businessofhome.com bohinsider.
- [02:09]
Zoe Feldman
I grew up in, I'd say, a pretty avant garde family. My mother ran an art gallery that my grandfather and grandmother had started. I grew up in a world surrounded by wonderful, exciting, provocative art around wonderful, exciting, provocative artists. I think just growing up in this very like, art forward, design forward world shaped who I am and gave me this kind of natural inclination and probably one that, I don't know, maybe I was genetically inclined to. Anyway, I'm not a great artist and so I don't think I ever translated that I could do something with art. So I didn't make the connection until much later.
- [02:52]
Caitlin Peterson
That's Zoe Feldman. After studying journalism, she had a brief Disastrous stint in advertising. As that job ended, she went looking for her calling and enrolled in the design program at Parsons, where she was immediately enthralled. She soon landed an interview for an internship with Alexa Hampton, who had recently taken over her late father's firm.
- [03:13]
Zoe Feldman
It was such a cool environment, and Alexa was so cool and friendly, and it was this really kind of like, interesting, chaotic, fun, energy filled young office. And I was like, I want to work here. And thankfully, they hired me to intern. Within six weeks of interning with Alexa, she hired me to assist her. And then very shortly after that, she turned me into the design assistant. And then I just sort of grew from there until I worked there about four plus years into a proper designer. I remember my mom came to see where I worked. She wanted to meet Alexa, and I guess, like, Alexa pulled her aside and said something like, you know, I just have to tell you, your daughter really has it. No matter what I send her to do, you know, she always comes back and it's done so well and she just nails it. It was so pivotal to my growth and, like, it gave me this, like, shot of self esteem. It was like the first time that, I don't know, I think somebody let me know that I was good at something and I could see that I was in the right place.
- [04:13]
Caitlin Peterson
After getting married, Zoe moved back to her hometown in Florida and tried to find work with a local designer. But the same magic she'd found with Alexa just wasn't there.
- [04:23]
Zoe Feldman
I attempted to work for a designer in Florida, which was, as you can imagine, an absolute disaster, and lasted like four days. And I was like, no way. It was that I was actually hanging gondola art. I was like, this is a fall from grace. Too steep. I sort of just felt. Felt like I have no options here. I'm not in a city. This is Sarasota, Florida, where I'm from. It's this small place on the west coast of Florida that, like, isn't exactly a design mecca. At the time, it just wasn't thriving. I didn't really have a lot of options, so I was like, all right, I'm just gonna go off on my own. Yeah, I always say, like, going off my own was like this great combination of, like, naivete, arrogance, and, like, I don't know, youth, maybe.
- [05:01]
Caitlin Peterson
Zoe officially launched her firm in 2004, and since then, she's built a robust business that includes design, e commerce, and editorial teams.
- [05:11]
Interviewer
I wanted to talk to her about.
- [05:13]
Caitlin Peterson
Why she's introduced a scaled down option to her design offerings. For clients who just want good advice. The many ways she's built philanthropy into the fabric of her firm and why she insists that clients don't really want full transparency.
- [05:29]
Interviewer
What did it take to start to hit your stride?
- [05:32]
Zoe Feldman
So I moved to Washington D.C. in 2008. So it was great because I could now commute to New York and I began to pick up better work here in D.C. because, you know, the people were more aligned with my aesthetic here. And I think that I had made so many mistakes, frankly, like in Florida. And in retrospect, that was probably a good spot for it because the stakes were a bit lower, I guess. I didn't end up staying there. I wasn't really building this big practice there. So it's kind of like a, a layover for me. So sorry for all those who came before. Yeah. And I think at that point I've always been somebody and I encourage other people to do this. I've always been somebody where I really look at my mistakes, I accept them, I take them head on. And I, I say like, I'm fine to make mistakes, but I don't want to make the same mistake twice.
- [06:23]
Interviewer
Right.
- [06:23]
Zoe Feldman
So I have this sort of catalog of mistakes that I, I, I try never to do again. And I try to, we do something here at my office, design tips every month where I offer like some type of education to my team around some sort of topic. And we also talk about, like, the things to do and not to do. And then also at our monthly meetings, we all do our highs and lows that are meant to both inspire and also to save other people from making similar mistakes. So I, that's kind of fundamental to who I am and like what I've brought into my practice.
- [06:55]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [06:56]
Zoe Feldman
And so at that point, I think I had, I had made a lot of them and I was feeling like I can do this better and I was making a little bit of money. I think maybe I was in the very barely black and I was able to hire a part time design assistant and that was helpful.
- [07:15]
Interviewer
What did that do for you?
- [07:17]
Zoe Feldman
I hired somebody who was stylish because I think that's generally important, especially when, when you're very small. Right. Because you're going to be collaborating and naturally any small firm, you're going to wear a lot of hats. But she also had an accounting background and had some interest in that. And so, and she was very organized and I am not. And she was like very a type and I am not. And I was like, okay, this, this woman will help balance me A bit. Someone once told me this wonderful architect in D.C. who's the. He's passed now, but he's the father of one of my closest friends, and he's this architect called Paul Devereaux. He built some wonderful buildings in D.C. and I would ask him for advice anytime I was near him, because that's also who I am. And, like, if you are somebody I admire and I get. I'm in your orbit, I'm going to start asking you annoying questions to learn from you. One of the questions I asked him, one of the last times I saw him before he died, was like, what's your best advice to build a business? Like, to grow a business? And he was like, hire people better than you. And so I've taken that with me, too. And hiring her, I think, was just. I could see spaces where she was better than me, and I could accept that and. And use that to my advantage and to the company's advantage and the client's advantage.
- [08:29]
Interviewer
Can you talk a little bit about some of those early design mistakes and how you. How you are able to look them head on and sort of say, okay, not that ever again?
- [08:38]
Zoe Feldman
I spent a lot of time at the Washington Design center, and now I was doing an apartment in New York City while living in D.C. and I bought this beautiful light from Baker. And I was so excited because it was so expensive and I was going to make so much money. I felt like, you know, and only to realize that the light where I'm putting it needs to be moved a bit. No big deal, right? Lights always have to be moved. This isn't a big deal, except the building is a post war building with cement ceilings.
- [09:11]
Interviewer
Oh.
- [09:12]
Zoe Feldman
And you can't jackhammer in these New York City buildings and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the client doesn't want to drop the ceiling for a. First of all, who wants to drop me a post war building? They're probably not that tall anyway. You know, this whole thing. So all of a sudden I was like, oh, my God, I have a Baker light. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I need to figure this out. And I was like, literally, this could sink my battleship. Like, if. If I can't get the purse, like somebody to take this back and not with the restocking fee, because the restocking fee would have been an enormous amount of money for me.
- [09:48]
Interviewer
I don't know.
- [09:49]
Zoe Feldman
I'll have to figure it out. Like, it's. This is not going to be good. So, thankfully, I had spent all this time at the Design center creating this relationship with this woman Katie, who worked at Baker, and she. She talked to somebody, and somehow, probably because she felt she took pity on me, she got them to take it back.
- [10:07]
Interviewer
Okay. That's huge.
- [10:09]
Zoe Feldman
It was. I did not. I probably did not thank her enough. It was massive. Because, you know when you're young and you don't. You don't have all that cash to burn, you never want to burn cash, but sometimes it feels less scary. So now I always know there's cement ceilings in post war buildings. People, when you see track lights, they're probably there for a reason, or, you know, you see that, you see drop ceilings in certain places, not others. So good to always ask about that.
- [10:35]
Interviewer
What was the moment when you really feel like it was comfortable?
- [10:40]
Zoe Feldman
When I met my current husband. So I met my current husband in 2015. So I'd been working for a while in D.C. and in New York, and I was already starting to. I was already getting some. I don't know if I say notoriety, but I. You know, I. I was getting press, and things were happening for me, and I was. I had built the business up to maybe five of us, and it was producing pretty good work. And then I met Matt, and he is a cpa. He began to look at my books, and he was like, wow, you're doing really, really, really well. And I was like, yeah, I am. And he's like, so why don't you have any staff? And I'm like, I do. I have these, like, three people or four people or whatever it was, and, like, a couple interns.
- [11:30]
Interviewer
Yeah, this feels like. And it probably feels. That feels like a lot.
- [11:32]
Zoe Feldman
A lot. I was stoked. And I was like, honestly, I can't afford to hire anyone else. Like, this is. This is good. And he's like, zoe, you can't afford not to hire more people. Like, you have way too much work and not enough staff, and you will never be able to deliver, like, a good service like this.
- [11:51]
Interviewer
Whoa.
- [11:52]
Zoe Feldman
I know. And I was like, say more also. Why don't you come help me? So he did that, and we began to grow, and I began to just, like, blind faith, trust that he was correct because I didn't understand numbers. And he did.
- [12:07]
Interviewer
What was his vision? You know, when he said, you know, you need, like, where is your staff? And you're like, I have all these people. What was the number that he saw for you as, like, where the firm should be?
- [12:18]
Zoe Feldman
Well, he asked me, like, how big do you want to get? And I'm like, as big as I can. Like, I want to have 70 people working for me. I want to have like multiple branches, build careers for people. And my biggest dream is like, I want people who work for me to make a bunch of money. Like not just a little bit of money, but like having a massive career within my world. Like within this like company we have. And he's like, okay, well you have to grow. Like you can't do it right? This is never, this is not working. And I'm like, okay, so yeah, I think once he knew that I was here for world domination, he was like, all right, let's do it.
- [12:58]
Interviewer
What does that look like today? Where are you on the path to world domination?
- [13:03]
Zoe Feldman
We are now like 23 people. I think we have expanded to to have a satellite New York office where we have a small staff there who are boots on the ground there, like live there. Obviously. I spend most of my time in Washington and I spend a week a month about in New York. We have launched a newsletter and I guess what you might call a blog that's called BS by zf.
- [13:31]
Caitlin Peterson
It's called.
- [13:31]
Zoe Feldman
But seriously, we have a product launch coming out in January. I definitely want to lean into some more product. We are still staying as sustainable as possible and have our give back initiative and building that up. So. And we are about to launch something new. We're going to be doing some E commerce.
- [13:55]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [13:56]
Zoe Feldman
It's in its infancy so I don't think there's like too, too much to talk about yet. But we're working on that. That's coming soon.
- [14:03]
Interviewer
What does that mean for you? Is that kind of like a shop, the look type thing so that people who love what you do can kind of buy in or is more complicated.
- [14:12]
Zoe Feldman
It'll be similar to that. We also have launched. The other thing that's important is we've launched, we have both a full service and something we call Design Anywhere which is a bit of like a lighter service, a lighter touch. So we saw that we were getting inquiries that maybe couldn't yield the full service fees and experience, but were very robust and lovely and healthy budgets and design enthusiasts and all of this. And so we figured out a way to work with that sect of people as well. And then I also have the expert for people who just sort of need like one off like hours here and there to help with their space with that ecosystem.
- [14:59]
Interviewer
How has your role evolved? Where are you kind of most engaged on the day to day level with the different pieces of your business and how have you built a team around you to support each of Those initiatives and endeavors.
- [15:14]
Zoe Feldman
Okay, guys, so spoiler alert. Matt did come on as my CFO and president.
- [15:19]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [15:20]
Zoe Feldman
During the pandemic, I finally convinced him to drop his boring consulting job and come and help me properly grow this business. So now he is the president and CFO of our company.
- [15:30]
Interviewer
What did that change for you?
- [15:32]
Zoe Feldman
Everything. I now, like, no longer have to worry about anything financial. And I, you know, we talk still, and we, you know, we consult about certain things because they don't want to completely, like, bow out and not have any understanding of, like, the business world. That's not something that's interesting to me either. But I have this, like, great support. Yeah. So that's been wonderful. So I can primarily focus on essentially being the, like, chief creative officer slash creative director. I still work very closely with all of the teams in probably more of an editor capacity. That's probably. That's typically how I think of it, where the teams, you know, are coming in with wonderful ideas, and then I'm editing them, and sometimes with very light edits, and sometimes I'm blowing things up because I tend to do that. So I haven't really moved away much. My goal is to probably work four days a week and have a little more balance with my family, my children, but we're not quite there yet. I have wonderful people who work here logistically who help with my schedule and have really. We've really leaned into time blocking. That has been really huge for the growth and for managing all of the different components of the world. My world now. And so on Mondays and Wednesdays, I do design development meetings with the teams. And then on Tuesdays and Thursdays, it's more marketing and client meetings and site visits. And then on Fridays is typically when we'll do any sort of potential client things and maybe just some runoff if there's, like, anything extra. We try to do remote Fridays for the team, so it's typically not a creative, collaborative day.
- [17:10]
Interviewer
What kind of discipline does that require from you? That sounds like a hard thing to transition into, at least at the beginning, to have that much structure.
- [17:17]
Zoe Feldman
Yeah. To be honest, without it, I don't think there's a way to do it. And so I don't look at it that way. I look at it as actually the piece, like, the. The only way for this whole thing to actually work. Without structure and without the organizational technique of it, there would be no way for any of these things to get done. And even with all of that structure in place, my wonderful assistant Rachel, who's phenomenal and has to move at every turn. And, you know, she really has to stay on her toes. She's still constantly moving things around to work. When things like this wonderful podcast come up, you know, we're obviously not gonna be like, well, on this day, we typically do this. So no, you know.
- [17:59]
Interviewer
Right. How did that dedicated day help protect your creativity?
- [18:06]
Zoe Feldman
Well, I think I put my head into the game that I'm in. So I know that on Mondays and Wednesdays, I'm going to be creative. Ish. And Wednesdays are highly creative. Meaning that Mondays are, like, sort of the first edit, probably, of what we're doing. And then Wednesdays are like the. Okay, we talked about it, we edited. Now let's, like, dig into it, make it right. And I have my head in that game. Like, these are my design days. And whereas, like, Tuesdays and Thursdays, when I'm doing more marketing and things, I'm thinking more editorial on those days. And so, you know, like I said, we iterated a lot. At one point, I had marketing and design on the same day, and I was like, my brain can't do this. It's like shifting gears too fast. They're totally different worlds. I thought they were the same worlds. They're both creative. They're. They're totally different world, you know? And so I think a lot of it is also trial and error. Right. Like, you and. And people, I think, spend a lot of time trying to figure out the best path forward rather than just living the path, finding the mistakes in the path and adjusting. Yeah, people tend to be. I found that very afraid of not getting it right. And it's like, you're never going to be correct the first time. So just do it. Try it. I say this to my team, too. I'm like, look, give me something. Especially new people. I'm like, give me something. It's probably going to be terrible. And that's okay because we haven't really talked about it much, and you're still learning, and this is how you learn. And the next time you do it, it will be less terrible. And the next time it will be good, and the next time it will be great, and we will get there. Same with writing, I'm like, just give me something. To the writers on my staff, just give me something. You know, I'm probably gonna, in the beginning, before you know my voice, like, edit the hell out of it and be like, but eventually it's gonna get really smooth, you know? So I think it's just, like, about getting in there, diving in, figuring out what works, figuring out what doesn't, and being nimble. I think a lot of it is about being nimble.
- [20:00]
Interviewer
We're gonna pivot because you just said, I talk to the writers on my staff, which is not something I've ever heard from a designer before. So I wanna talk a little bit about who those writers people are on your team. And let's start with the writers. What made you want to hire an editorial team?
- [20:17]
Zoe Feldman
I knew I wanted to lean into this sort of, like, editorial media world, and I'm not that. Like, I'm not a writer. And so I wanted to have someone or people on my team who could elevate that and also add to the work. Right. So not just, like, help with my writing, but also be a voice within my team. I have this sort of dream, like, I was always inspired by. Do you remember when Chelsea Handler had her show and she would bring, like, young comedians on?
- [20:48]
Interviewer
Yes, yes.
- [20:49]
Zoe Feldman
And she created this platform for them that then they, like many of them, launched from. I've always felt that way about the work here, too. Like, I really want to get to a place where I am, an area where young designers and young writers and whomever can have their own voice here and build. Build a brand for themselves within our brand. So. So I hired this woman. Rachel was the first hire. She had been at this corporate kind of company before, but she sat down and she's adorable and had this wonderful energy, and she was like, I just really wanted to be a television writer. Like, I was like, oh, my God, I'm obsessed with that. Like, this means you're funny. This means you're creative. Like, I love this. And so I hired her. We didn't have a. We actually didn't have a marketing job for her yet because we hadn't, like, launched that part, but we had an office manager job, and she was applying to be an office manager, and she was clearly overqualified. But I got what she was doing, and I liked how industrious she was. She was sort of like, get my foot in the door. This way they'll see that I'm maybe not that great at ordering pencils, but I'm really good at these other things that they'll need me for. And that's what happened. And I just saw she's this, like, brilliant writer, and I began to ask her for help on certain things kind of casually, and then eventually moved her out of the office manager position that she knows, this she was not as good at, but she was amazing at this other creative component. Yeah, and then she helped me launch this marketing branch. And then we've recently hired someone else, a woman named Courtney, who does also like. Is a wonderful writer and also does, like, great PR work. And we worked with a consultant named Ali Maringhall, who had done. Had worked at Domino and all these sorts of things. And she helped Rachel and Courtney bring the vision of but seriously to life. And so I've also relied on some outside consultants at times to help subsidize what we don't have here on staff.
- [22:49]
Interviewer
You know, you were able to articulate early that your vision for this business was to be big, to be involved in lots of things. Now that you've embraced that, now that you're moving towards that sort of wholeheartedly.
- [23:01]
Caitlin Peterson
What does it feel like to come.
- [23:03]
Interviewer
To work every day and know that that's what you're building toward?
- [23:06]
Zoe Feldman
I always knew that I could do this if I believed in myself enough and worked hard enough and also surrendered enough. You know, there's a lot of anxiety in building a business. There's a lot of things that come up that you don't anticipate and are pretty scary. And you have to have a lot of blind faith. You know, as a young person, looking back, I can remember feeling in my, like, belly, like, that I needed to do something big and not understanding what that was yet before fully becoming a designer. And I was still. I was like, doing it, but not doing it really well. And like, in the Florida days, I was also, you know, at one point trying to write a book and at one point trying to launch a bathing suit line. And I just, like, knew something needed to happen, and I just, like, couldn't find it. But I believed. And I just kept, I don't know, my head down and when. When things would show up. Like, that didn't feel good with, like, the bathing suit. And it just immediately was like, this isn't right. I drop it and move on. I didn't attach myself to things, if that makes sense. I still still don't. You know, Matt and I had a startup briefly during COVID and we worked with this outside consultant and this really bright guy named Josh Liberson. And he helped us a lot when we were thought. We thought we knew what we were doing. And then one day he called me, and we'd already raised seed money, we'd done all this stuff, and he was like, you know, Zoe, you're really blowing up. And I don't think. I don't think this is the right path for you. I don't know how to say this to you, but I don't think this is what you should be putting your energy into. I think you need to be putting your energy into you as a brand. Like, you are already doing that. That's already showing success. Like, why are you pivoting over to this other thing that has nothing to do with you? You're not branding it through you. It's like this whole entry, and I was like, you're right. He was right. And that was the moment where it was like, you know, somebody else might have been like, no, we can't. We're already this far down the road. We can't stop. And it's like, yes, you can. If there's a better path, you absolutely can. And so we did. That day, I talked to Matt. He agreed, and I was like, all right, we'll figure out how to get out of this. And I put all my energy into myself, which is what I should have been doing all along. Not the bathing suit, not the, you know, chair. You know, these other things that. That weren't right. But it took a long time. I mean, this is only like, 2020, 2021, you know, to fully invest in myself.
- [25:35]
Caitlin Peterson
Hey, designers. I wanted to tell you a little bit more about the benefits of becoming a BoH insider. Once you sign up, you get access to a weekly lineup of workshops that dig into the real mechanics of running a design firm. We're talking about everything from how to structure a flat fee to maximize profit to strategies for transforming client conversations so you can close more sales with confidence. You'll learn how to develop a marketing budget that actually moves the needle, create a pipeline of consistent leads, and refine your charging strategies so that your pricing supports the business you want, not the one you're stuck in. If you're ready to tighten your systems, sharpen your strategy, and make smarter decisions across your business, becoming a BoH insider is a powerful place to start. Explore the benefits of becoming a BoH Insider today@businessofhome.com.
- [26:35]
Interviewer
As you hire more people, as you grow, as you do, you know, fully invest in yourself. How does your role have to change? And how did you get comfortable with your evolving role in your own firm?
- [26:48]
Zoe Feldman
I think I have to both be more authoritative and less micromanaging, if that makes sense. So I have to know when I am the authority and I am the expert and trust my gut and not crowdsource. And just talk to Matt about it and just say, this is what we're doing, even if it's not a Popular opinion to my staff. And I also, on the flip side of the coin, have to know when it isn't my area of expertise. And I need to trust in Matt's decision or our design director or the marketing director, like whatever it is to say, okay, maybe I'm not the best person to make this decision. I recently overrode a decision the marketing team didn't want me to do and it ended up being I was wrong and they were right and had I just listened to them, it would have been a better outcome. So it's learning that too.
- [27:46]
Interviewer
You know how much clients still see you or where you know, how does your relationship with the day to day of a client project change as the team grows?
- [27:57]
Zoe Feldman
So full service clients see me a lot. I'm heavily involved in all of our full service. I do a lot of new business. I do the majority of client meetings. I do a lot of the early programming with architects and contractors and potential clients. And then by the way, and then the full service. I'm not quite as involved on the project management side. And then I show up heavily on the installation portion again, which is at the end. But I tend to create very close relationships with my clients as well. And we do multiple jobs for them and we have very long lasting relationships and often they become friends, which has been really nice and doesn't happen when you're a young designer because you're not quite seeing maybe as like an equal yet. But as you grow and you build your reputation, you build your craft, that does happen and that's a really nice moment when you can become friends with your clients and it can feel very collaborative and very friendly and that is really nice. With my Design Anywhere clients, I show up, I'd say 20% of the time. So everything still passes through me. So internally that all happens at a smaller scale, at a lighter touch, but the same. There's someone in between the design team, me and I maybe show up to like one of every four or five client meetings.
- [29:18]
Interviewer
Is that Design Anywhere package? Where does it stop being full service or like where does the track diverge?
- [29:26]
Zoe Feldman
I guess it's a lot more formulaic and this from a execution standpoint. So if you are a local client, there might be a couple of in person meetings, but there will also still be more virtual meetings than in person. It's called Design Anywhere because it's, it can be anywhere. So if it's a job in Michigan, there are likely no in person meetings. We also remove ourselves from a lot of the daily project management we still give the client the tools and the deliverables they need so that they don't make mistakes. They have all of the documents to give the contractor and things like this so that we protect them, but we don't help with the execution like we do in our full service. What it is, it's for people who have, you know, a nice budget, but rather than paying, you know, all of these fees and things for us to just do everything for them, they're willing to get their hands dirty a bit and get more out of us from a creative side and product side.
- [30:26]
Interviewer
So are they ordering their own products or.
- [30:29]
Zoe Feldman
No, we still do the procurement because we want to manage. We want to be in control of that and be able to manage it. But because they don't have to, they're not spending as much time with the project management side. The fees are less. And so it's for people who are like, look, I can't put all this money into fees. I want to put the bulk of the money into the product and your brain and get your creative brain. And so it's for that client, but.
- [30:54]
Interviewer
They'Ll be managing the tile installer, correct?
- [30:57]
Zoe Feldman
Okay, yeah, exactly. And so, you know, our full service don't want that. That's not what they're interested in. They don't need to do that. But, you know, if I were doing it, I'd probably need to be more of, you know, a design anywhere client.
- [31:07]
Interviewer
How have you approached billing for your work?
- [31:12]
Zoe Feldman
Endless, endless question and pivot. And how do we best do this? Oh, God. We've done everything in the moment, Caitlin, and if we talk again in a year, it'll probably be different. But in the moment, we're working toward an hourly component for programming while we fully define the scope and work with architects. And then a flat fee for the design management and project management, which is new for us. We used only flat fee design and then hourly project management and then hourly for installation. So it's basically bookended hourly and then a flat fee in the center.
- [31:53]
Interviewer
What is the benefit of doing it that way? Or what theory are you testing with that model?
- [31:59]
Zoe Feldman
Thank you for asking. Because obviously there is a theory. Well, on the accounting side, I think it's easier, number one, and there's just less, like, paperwork and all that less hassle. From my perspective, I want to try to create a world where the client is a little more aware of exactly what they'll spend on us. I want to leave a lot more space for the client to spend more on product and get really really, really good product into the hands of the client and then not to feel like they're overindulged or over subscribed on this, like, fee component. That's, like, making it feel like we're spending so much money monthly on you, and it's a little unknown how much we spend.
- [32:44]
Interviewer
Does that mindset make people make more conservative choices?
- [32:47]
Zoe Feldman
Sometimes it does, I think, because it's sort of the hemorrhaging. I believe that it's part of this, like I always say, like, this, like, hemorrhaging feeling, which you have anyway with a contractor. So we're trying to stop the hemorrhage on our side. I want to get good art into more people's hands. I've been really passionate about that lately. We have wonderful clients who we have built art collections for. I don't know if all designers do this. We work with consultants, but we are. Obviously, because of my background, I'm very picky and very hugely a part of the art acquisition, which can be very a difficult and long journey to get people to. I just want to make space for better acquisitions in general for people, and not have them feel like they're sort of unclear of what they'll spend on us.
- [33:35]
Interviewer
How is that working so far?
- [33:37]
Zoe Feldman
I don't know. We're in the infancy of it.
- [33:39]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [33:40]
Zoe Feldman
It seems to. I don't know. I've all. You know, this is always the real question, Caitlin. Do people want full transparency or do they prefer not to have it? That is the constant question that I have. You know, some designers are like, you know, they show their markup. Like, I don't do that. I come from a space of like, I don't want to know how much these jeans were purchased for, then see the markup and then buy them. Like, I'll be like, that makes me.
- [34:05]
Interviewer
Sick to my stomach. But if I've decided that I'm okay with this price tag, like, that's good enough, right?
- [34:11]
Zoe Feldman
So, yeah, 1,000. We will never change that. And for all of you listening, I am a firm believer that people only think they want full transparency, but they don't actually, because it's gross. You're like, oh, yay, great to see you're making X percentage of this. Like, why don't you take 10% off since you're already made? Like, wouldn't that just. That's what my brain would do. It'd be like, well, just make a little less and I can, and everyone's happy, you know, I mean, if you look at the other way I've built my business. I've looked at successful businesses like Restoration Hardware. They don't do that. They do the opposite. They mark up to mark down to make you pretend you're always getting a deal. You're not getting a deal. They've figured it all out already on the. I mean, this is all. This is all psychology, Right.
- [34:51]
Interviewer
That sale isn't really a sale or whatever that number. Discount. Yeah.
- [34:54]
Zoe Feldman
And by the way, there's no such thing as free shipping. It's just embedded into the price.
- [34:58]
Interviewer
Right.
- [34:59]
Zoe Feldman
But nobody in the retail world shows you their overhead and how much they're making. Nobody. That's like, insane. And why we think that this is smart in our business is, like, crazy to me.
- [35:12]
Interviewer
Well, okay, but if there's no such thing as free shipping, you know, for design clients, getting that shipping and tax bill at the end can be, you know, a real rude awakening too. How have you baked in, like, transport costs or something like that?
- [35:25]
Zoe Feldman
So we embed all the shipping we. I have for years and years and years. Nobody ever sees any. Any shipping. Shipping costs.
- [35:31]
Interviewer
Where does that go into the product cost?
- [35:33]
Zoe Feldman
Yeah. So we'll just like. If they want to buy tile, we'll say your tile for Your bath is $10,000. It includes shipping, like, as well. It's all included. Don't worry about it. Do you want to spend $5,000 or no? Okay, no, you want to spend less? We'll find a cheaper tile. Because what used to happen is people would be like, wait, it's 2500 for the tile and 2500 shipping. Well, can I go pick it up? Where. Where do you think you're picking this tile up? It could be in Morocco. It could be, you know, at Long Island City and somewhere. I don't know where this. Can I go pick it up? What are you talking about? You know, and so we just say, like, this is the price of it. If you don't like the price, I get that. Let's. Let's value engineer and buy something and get something less. So I can't change the shipping. The shipping is what it is.
- [36:15]
Interviewer
Right. You've made a lot of the creative work and the installation work hourly. What's the thinking there?
- [36:22]
Zoe Feldman
Why.
- [36:22]
Interviewer
Why does that make sense for you?
- [36:24]
Zoe Feldman
Not the creative work. We've made the programming hourly. So the programming has slight creative moments in it, like the concept development and when we redline architecture architects work and as we fully define the scope based on, you know, where the architect lands and all of that. But once we get into Design development and project management, then it. It is a flat fee. And. Yeah. And the idea for that was just we purchase a lot of product in that time.
- [36:56]
Interviewer
Right.
- [36:56]
Zoe Feldman
And so we also make money on procurement. And I've always just felt like I don't want to be egregious in any one spot. Right. I want to. There's different ways that we make money. We make some money hourly, we make some money in flat fee, we make some money in product. And so to be honest, the flat fee, we probably lose money, but that's okay because it's when we're doing procurement, so we're making it up on that end. So it's just a way to, I guess, like, not feel that our billing is super egregious, which is just, like, makes me uncomfortable, even though, like, no one's actually complaining, which may. Maybe I'm doing a dumb thing.
- [37:31]
Interviewer
How often are you invoicing clients? Like, what is the kind of cadence?
- [37:35]
Zoe Feldman
Cadence?
- [37:36]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [37:36]
Zoe Feldman
I believe they invoice monthly on, like, the same day or like, it's pretty sorted. There's an expectation. And we send weekly statements for all hourly work. So that. And this was a huge change in my business. I used to just send monthly statements for our hourly work. And it was like report card day in my house. Like, everybody called and was angry and didn't expect it. Oh, my God. I would be like, okay, I'll give you 10% off. I'll give you 50. Because we come from the client is always right attitude. And we will do everything to maintain a relationship with the client, unless it's a bad client, and then we part ways. But, like, assuming we love the client and the client is good to us and all of that, so it's just causing a lot of problems. And so we now we send weekly statements. So at any given week, a client can call me and say, oof, this is pretty heavy, or whatever. So by the time they get their monthly. And it's only a week that they haven't seen and that we don't. We don't get any calls anymore.
- [38:40]
Interviewer
That's great.
- [38:41]
Zoe Feldman
They see it every week before it's a bill. So it's like you could theoretically, and I tell them this, call me and talk to me about whatever's going on. Don't wait till the end of the month talking about the first week you had the first week, three weeks. Right. So it puts the onus on them, too, and creates some accountability on their side. You know, it used to feel messed up on our side too. It's like, okay, well, you let us all do all this work only to complain about it. But then I was like, it's also kind of not fair because maybe they didn't realize we're doing all this works now. It's like, okay, this is where I. The only area. I think transparency is good. It's like, you see that we are working on these things. This is what we're doing. This is how much it is. If you have a problem. Nope, that's not a problem, let me know. The problem for me will be if you try to complain about the first week on the fourth week.
- [39:28]
Interviewer
I also am realizing that the only time you're doing this is when you're collaborating with other people the client has hired. Is that fair to say? In some ways, because it's not for, like, design. It's not like X number of hours to find the lamp anymore.
- [39:43]
Zoe Feldman
Right? Correct. Correct. And that. Right. Because nobody liked that.
- [39:49]
Interviewer
I think so many people struggling with hourly billing are struggling with transparency around, like, oh, I was like, searching for the right X, Y, or Z for, you know, for 15.
- [39:59]
Zoe Feldman
We don't say that. Yeah. Also, Caitlin, we dropped all that a long time ago. All we have, we just have buckets.
- [40:06]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [40:06]
Zoe Feldman
We say we were either doing project management, and we have, like, I think three types of project management. We do. Whether it's like, I don't know, like, communications or proposals, whatever. And then so that goes into that bucket. If it's like design development, it just goes into, like, where we sourcing f. Like, furniture. I don't know, Just like, basically sourcing. So we. We killed that a long, long, long time ago. Because, yeah. People would be like, what, it took you 45 minutes? To quote my sofa, I'm like, yeah, it did.
- [40:35]
Interviewer
Have you ever seen one of these things? Yeah.
- [40:37]
Zoe Feldman
Yeah. Would you like to come shadow us for a day so you can see? And like. And so it just became like, this is never going to work. I would say 5% of our clients ask for details, and we give it to them. You want details? Fine. You want to get annoyed every. Fine. Here's the details.
- [40:54]
Interviewer
Are you still kind of doing that? You know, there's the flat fee for design development and project management. Are you still sort of reporting back? Like, here's the time that was spent on your project.
- [41:04]
Zoe Feldman
That's all. Part of it is now that we're moving into this even deeper flat fee version. We stopped doing it for design development a long time ago. We've been flat fee on that for a while. We have some hourly clients, like, fully hourly. That's the other component. We have had clients prior to us going into the flat fee who I have done 100% hourly before. I've done it all.
- [41:24]
Interviewer
Is it hard to switch someone midstream?
- [41:27]
Zoe Feldman
We don't ever switch anyone mainstream unless. Unless it's really early. And I realize this isn't a good fit. This has happened a few times where I'm like, look, you're not going to want to be hourly. I know you thought you wanted to be, but trust me, you don't. Yeah, like, I'm going to put you on the spot fee and you're going to win, and I just know they're going to be unhappy every month and it's just not going to work, you know, because some clients, to be, you know, completely frank, there are a few people who for some reason like to pay hourly. I'm like, okay, man. But I always say, if at any point, you know, you want to switch to a flat fee, just, you know, let me know.
- [42:01]
Interviewer
So much of the show's theme this season is finding purpose. Like, what is your purpose when you think about your business?
- [42:10]
Zoe Feldman
So my father, the dentist, he always wanted to figure out a way to give back. And eventually he figured out a way to give back through. He was a surgeon, like a gum surgeon. And he eventually figured out something with his CAT scan machine. And rather than charging the patient, he would charge them $100 and then donate it, and then he would match it. And he raised hundreds of thousands of dollars over time, over not that much time, a few years, and was kind of crazy. And so I kept trying to figure out how I could give back. And everyone kept telling me, oh, now that you're getting bigger, you should charge for your consult. And they weren't wrong. They're like, oh, because you're wasting your time with people who can't actually afford you or aren't a good fit. And I was like, you're not wrong. But, like, also, that feels weird. Like, I just not really comfortable doing that, you know, like, hey, give me a bunch of money and I'll, like, let you know if I feel like working for you. I don't know, it just felt like not my jam. While I was pregnant, I realized, oh, my God, the earth is burning and we're sitting inside of it and I'm bringing a baby into this world, and now I really need to figure out a way to give back. And it became more top of mind. And I went back to those thoughts I had about this consultation. And so I thought, well, why don't I align with some charities that are helping the earth, and I will ask for money for everyone who wants to have a consultation with me. And then if they sign, we match whatever donation they gave, you know, as sort of saying, like, we also have skin in this game and we want to give more money. And then we've added on to that since the beginning. So we also. We plant like a thousand plus trees at the end of any of every project.
- [43:48]
Interviewer
I will tell you that. You know, I think we talked about this the first time in December of 2020 as part of the 50 States Project. And this idea is probably the thing that more people have talked to me about than anything else I've ever written about in this series.
- [44:06]
Zoe Feldman
That's so nice to hear.
- [44:07]
Interviewer
How has it resonated, you know, in your world and with your clients?
- [44:11]
Zoe Feldman
It's so wonderful because I've been told this by potential and existing clients. You know, I was thinking about a few people, then I saw your give back program, and I was like, oh, I'm just gonna go with this girl. I like her work, and she does this great thing. You know, she obviously has, like, values aligned with mine. So it adds a layer of trust, I think, into the relationship. Yeah. And then it paves the way for additional conversations. Right. Like, you know, we don't like things in landfills, so how can we offload the things we're ripping out in a way that's meaningful? And I hope you like a lot of vintage pieces, because we don't like to add a bunch of waste into the world or artisan pieces or made to order pieces, you know, and just like, kind of thoughtful conversations.
- [44:53]
Interviewer
Is that something you find clients are receptive to?
- [44:57]
Zoe Feldman
Yes. I think that if for nothing else, people want to get rid of things, and they would rather them not go into a landfill. They would rather feel that they're being donated or resold or something, you know, and like, part of a circular economy, whether if it's just for convenience and it's not their problem, because we handle it all right. And that's. And that I'm sure is sometimes the case, or just. They also are aligned with that mission and, you know, are happy to know that they aren't working with a company that will allow that to happen. So. Yeah, I mean, generally very responsive.
- [45:30]
Interviewer
When you look back, what is the one thing you know now that you wish you had known when you founded your firm?
- [45:37]
Zoe Feldman
To be honest, I think it worked out exactly how it should have, because if I'd known what was ahead of me, I don't think I would have ever jumped into the water. And I'm so glad I did. So I think it's perfect, right? It's like you should know enough to be smart enough and know that there's going to be a lot of hard work and it's not going to be a linear experience and it's going to ebb and flow and you're going to have moments you want to quit. I had a major moment where I wanted to quit. But don't just stick it out. And that's all part of life. Don't expect it to always be this uphill climb or this downhill slide. I don't know how you would say it. Don't expect it all to be roses. Right? Yeah. I don't think I needed to know anything. I think I knew what I needed to know, which was not enough. And all those lessons taught me. And I mean, I don't know if I'd gone back, maybe I'd say stay at Alexa's longer, but then maybe I would have never left, you know, maybe I would have, you know, So I don't really, I don't live that way.
- [46:35]
Interviewer
What does success look like for you today?
- [46:39]
Zoe Feldman
I think success looks like for me today the ability to take care of my family alongside my husband and also the people who generously work with me every day and also because of the people who generously work with me every day, create space for me to also be a mother and make sure that I give the time to my children that they require and that I don't just hyper focus on this business because I think it's what they want so that they can buy all the toys they need and all the camps and all the schools. Right. And what they really want is me and my husband and our time. And so success looks like this, I guess, beautiful blend of, like, working hard while also having the space to, like, enjoy my family, which is really the most important thing.
- [47:31]
Caitlin Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, check out new products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. If you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@tradetalesusinessofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you back here next week.