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Training Science Podcast
The Physiology First Approach to Endurance Training With Dr Gabriele Gallo and Prof Paul Laursen
01:19:31
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- [00:01]
A
This week on the Training Science podcast, I'm joined by trainer and sports scientist Gabriela Gallo of Knowledge is what. So in 2026, we can measure almost everything. Power, race demands, all of it. And the easy move for a cycling coach is to take what a race asks for and paste it straight into training. Gabriela thinks that's all backwards. While the race demands are the question, the physiology is the answer. And his physiological model of endurance performance is his way of keeping coaches honest about the difference. We also dig into the Molman review out of Norway. Compari matched Zone two with HIT and what that means for your programming. Finally, we get into durability or fatigability and what the future holds with AI and data science. Just another incredible conversation with a legend in our field. So, without further ado, I now bring you Gabriela Gallo. I'm here with Gabriela Gallo. Gabriela, welcome to the podcast.
- [00:53]
B
Hi, Paul. Thank you, thank you. Hi everyone.
- [00:56]
A
Yeah, maybe say your name properly so that people know. Give us with the Italian twist that you just showed me because I can't do it.
- [01:05]
B
Yeah, it normally is. Gabriele, Gabriele.
- [01:07]
A
Gabriela. So I'm working on that team, but yeah, welcome to the podcast, Gabriela. And yeah, we're excited to have you here and love, love the work that you do at Knowledge is Watts and I've followed that for a while. It's just outstanding. Give us your background and where, where that whole areas began for you.
- [01:30]
B
So yeah, yeah, I think now is four years. Four years ago I started the, the Instagram page Knowledge is what. So basically I was finishing or was at second year of my PhD and I was started to, to publish my research and I, I felt something like, okay, it's good to publish, but I felt that I was not helping so much with my work, you know, because it was something that was remaining in academic public, in academic audience. So I felt that my contribution was not, was not so good, was not enough compared to using a different kind of language, different kind of presenting information could be for a wider audience. So I just started the page and then just beat up a lot of work during these years. And yeah, I think it was two years ago that I started also the, let's say the substack app or Substack channel. And yeah, here we are.
- [02:48]
A
Here we are. Yeah, well, we totally relate to that even with HIT Science. So you're probably familiar with Martin and I's review articles in sports medicine, which are, you know, quite, they're very well cited in the, in the academic world. But we were kind of, you know, they were published in 2013 and of course a large body of work that built up to that and we thought, just like you, we wondered, you know, it's, it's difficult sometimes for us academics to actually get these findings and to put them out into the real world where they, they can be, you know, observed, taken in, processed and applied. And that's what, that was the whole premise for Hit Science. And of course Athletica as well, which is our AI platform that actually continues to translate that into real world applications. So maybe even take us up, take us back a step even further. Gabriela, just with respect to your own sporting background, a lot of us come as semi pros. Do you have a, Were you a cyclist yourself? You do. I know you do a lot in, in cycling. Were you a classic semi pro, we like to say, when you didn't quite make it to the pro levels yourself and then. Or what was the background there?
- [04:05]
B
Yeah, not really that level. I was just like, yeah, recreational amateur cyclist. I, I also play played football. So I was not like trying to get professional. I did not even get at that point.
- [04:21]
A
Yeah. So based, based in Italy. Born and. Born and bred in Italy like our, our colleagues actually in Athletica, Andrea Zagnoli and Stefano Adriola. I've been on the podcast a number of times and so we have a real Italian connection there. But you've also visited New Zealand as well and done some nice work with Dan Plews, Ed Maunder, Harrison Dudley Road. I believe who's. Who's working with us now with Athletica, Andy Kilding. You've been to New Zealand and you've seen all these people and the amazing work that they're doing down there too. Yes.
- [04:59]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I spent the last year of my PhD at Auckland University of Technology. So at AUT and yeah, was really nice experience. My supervisor there was Ed at Mondar. And yeah, I think, I mean for, for me was very, very formative, especially from how much you should be rigorous with science and yeah, beautiful environment, nice experience, many days in the lab for durability studies. But it has been necessary.
- [05:40]
A
Perfect. Well, I want to cover durability today, but maybe we'll start first of all with one of your nice posts that's making the rounds as we speak. And it's very true to how Martin and I built Hitscience and our beliefs around programming and you call it the physiological model of endurance performance. So why don't you give us some background on the problem statement and what you're proposing in terms of ultimately a training philosophy, I would imagine. How do you want to frame that, Gabriela?
- [06:17]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think it's not like a new idea, you know, it's just giving a specific name to something that is generally not 100% the same already existing, but something that is already going on around the community. So basically I think that especially with the many posts on social media, many blog, web, sometimes it's too much about, you know, numbers and trying to chase the extract numbers recording in the race in training. So let's call this training specificity. So basically everyone try to measure the race demands with specific numbers. That can be intensity, volume, training load. And then there is a, let's say a belief that as much as you can reproduce in training these numbers, the faster and stronger you will be in the race. So my starting point is that that can be right, it makes completely sense and it works. But should not be the base reasonment behind training, that should be instead the physiology based. So the main idea is not to get lead by chasing the extract number of the race, but having a physiology based approach. So okay, it's good starting from race demands. But the second reason reasonment should be what physiological system these numbers stimulate and put in a critical situation during the race and what we can do to up regulate to boost this physiological system. And I think in, in some way I, I've also, I also been inspired by your working back in 2006 with Chris Abbis, your, you know, your, your radio it 20 years ago that basically you stated, I think it was six or seven physiological different models that can explain fatigue during endurance sports. So I remember when I was, when I was a student, I think it was a bachelor degree, I was in the library, I think I was 18 or 19 and I read this study and something clicked and then many years passed again. But you know, when you something capture you then also many years after it can inspire you.
- [09:04]
A
Yeah, that's lovely. Well, yeah, thank you so much for bringing up that 2006 review. Massive review by Chris Abbas, who I believe that was his honors thesis in fact. So Chris was doing his honors thesis under me at Edith Cowan University in Perth when I was there. And yeah, it became a very popular review article on all the various different models of fatigue. Of course fatigue can manifest in so many different ways and according to different theories. And I've been reading your substack and you talk about the energy supply energy depletion model, you talk about the cardiovascular anaerobic model and of course We've stolen many of these also from Tim Noakes when he, he's, he's spoken about these principles as well and some of his central governor work. But that's ultimately, I mean it was massive review laying out all of these. And I see how you're now taking that, those pieces and, and breaking those down and looking at well, how do you, you know, how do we solve for the fatigue that is going to manifest under those various different models? So outstanding. And, and then back to, you know, back to how we frame training. Martin and I, with respect to hiit science and our philosophy, we really look at the different systems. We go even simpler in hiit science. We go with the really like, you know, what is training that's going to induce an aerobic delivery system. Right. And we have an aerobic model for that. What are the various different, you know, formats that induce an aerobic response? And of course there's lots of. And then likewise with the anaerobic variable as well, we need that for certain components of the race and then the neuromuscular variable too. Right. So three fundamental families. It's a, it's just a, it's a different, it's a different but similar way that you are going at yours. And of course, yeah, if you're going to be bringing in the, probably the brain in there as well. But I love that reverse engineering physiology first before, just like the default for a typical cycling coach, which is completely valid but it's to look at what are the race demands, what's the power file external load that's associated with that race demand and then just reverse engineer work backwards from that and say oh, just have to do that in training. Right. And of course it doesn't always work well when you just do that. Just looking at the power file and replicating that in training. Right?
- [11:50]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I completely agree. And I think that again the starting point, it's the same. It's just analyzing the power file or the GPS file if he's running or whatever. But then you, you don't have to chase the numbers but think, okay, what this number are telling me from a physiological point of view, which system are critical to be able to do these numbers or better. And okay, what can I do to improve this physiological system? And this is, this can be training but also can be also other areas like I don't know, nutrition supplements technology or equ. Equipment, for example in cycling, but now even in running can be very, very, very interesting. And I think another point is that with this Approach, this approach is linked to, to freedom because is the physiology based is something that doesn't change in five months, one year or two years is a knowledge that make you free if you are following numbers. These numbers are continuously changing because human being and athletes are getting better and better and what you learn today is not any more valid in one year or two years. So. And freedom because if you follow just numbers blindly and the performance decoder or whatever without completely understanding the, the black box that is physiology, you are not free to decide. You are just imprisoned by using that specific numbers and that performance decoder.
- [13:32]
A
Yeah, no, it's so well said and again it segues nicely to what we've built with Athletica where Athletica AI is our physiological based AI training coach. And that's exactly what we've built where it's just there's specific sessions that are in the week that are specifically targeting physiological systems. They're kind of targeting performance, but they're, they're not real specific. Right. Like a classic example is a short interval session that we would have. That's a standard, standard thing that you're hitting in your week. And it's a physiological like a VO2 stimulus ultimately, right. Where you're trying, we are trying to target the heart, the lungs, the larger fast twitch muscle fibers and hitting those and the way we can manipulate the variables, we can do that actually in a short interval format. We can do that actually under quite low lactate levels to control the stress and allow for, you know, continuation there thereafter. We have like a, we call it a strength endurance or high torque session. Here's a neuromuscular stimulus that is, is also fundamental to shaping, shaping the physiology of the rider. Not necessarily specific to a performance, but it's specific to a physiology where we're trying to adapt, you know, probably a larger motor unit into a slower, slower twitch. What would you kind of call it fatigue resistant phenotype. And that's. And maybe there was in the microcycle, I'm thinking for the cyclist there's really only one specific training session in the week where it is hit there for the targeted event. But the. All the rest are, you know, in lots of Zone 2 as well that are, that are below, below that. And we're going to talk about those later on as another one of your key topics. But I just, yeah, I love, you know, I just love this whole. You call it a PMEP model or physiological model of endurance performance. So is there anything more you want to say on that, on that model, Gabriella?
- [15:59]
B
No, No, I think, I think it's, it's good. But I think maybe two other things is. Yeah, I agree also with you with your all eat philosophy. And for example, as you, as you were saying, like if you, if you don't know physiology, for example the short intermittent intervals like the 2020 or 2015, if you just look at specifically you can't understand that you can train aerobic capacity with this kind of formats that looks more like just a neuromuscular or glycolytic stimulus. But if you understand physiology behind, you know that it helps to accumulate a lot of time at a high fraction of VO2max or above 90% of VO2max. And this is, is one of the stimulus that seems to be related to aerobic adaptations from heat. So I think it's completely in line with, with what we were saying. And maybe one last thing is that using the pm, PMIP model, PMEP model that it doesn't mean that species you, you just have to rule out completely training specificity. But I think that you just have to beat the long term development with the physiology based approach. And then when you approach, approach the competition, especially the last weeks, you can build up also specifically it's not like ruling out specificity but that can be very, very interesting anyway to do the, the, you know, the ice on the cake, the final part of the preparation.
- [17:37]
A
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And that's, that's exactly how I would periodize it as well in my, in my coaching or uh. Yeah, so build the physiological model. Hit the, the key physiological targets in those sessions prior and then like you said, icing on the cake. Now we're, you know, we're 10 days out. Let's do some specific things. We know we're going to encounter typical, you know, key pinch points in the race which are at you know, key maximum mean powers over various different durations. Let's hit those, let's see where we're at and get the confidence as well and like connect the mind to the, to the output. Right, the external output. Because we are going to need to do that and execute on the day. So yeah, that's, that's exactly how I program as well. So completely aligned you are. Are you a trainer or a coach for, for cycling with it with a team?
- [18:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I'm doing private coaching. Last year I was with team decathlon. The, the, the French team. I coached like from like when I was a first year of bachelor degree but now is like a. More like a smaller activity for me, while the main activity is with the duplication with knowledge. But at the moment.
- [19:01]
A
That's awesome. That's awesome. Hey coaches and sports scientists, let's be honest, you're probably drowning in data right now. Gps, heart rate, force plates, blood markers, and you still probably not even sure if your players are actually ready or not. That's because more data doesn't fix anything if you don't have a system to make sense of it. My buddy Martin Scheidt has been solving this exact problem for well over 15 years at all the big name clubs. His brand new course at Hitscience gives you that system. Load and response monitoring in elite football is now live and walks you through how to separate neuromuscular from metabolic load. What GPS actually tells you about the load and where it completes falls short as well as how to build real feedback loops between the dose and the response. Now this isn't the 2019 version warmed up. It's a full and complete rebuild. New tech, new research, real examples from elite clubs across Europe and the Middle East. You get lifetime access, full handouts, a hit science certificate and CEUs, all for just $2.99. So stop stacking dashboards and start making decisions. Head on over to Hitscience and enrollment and we'll see you on the inside. Hey everyone, just want to let you know about something cool we've built into Athletica. It's called Athletica U. So this isn't another training app. Add on. It's a structured education series designed to give athletes, coaches and practitioners a shared foundation in endurance training principles. In our Certificate 1 Foundations course, we walk you through the essentials. Base training, build training, balancing volume and intensity, fueling and hydration recovery and how to interpret your own training data. So what makes this different is the integration in each principle. You'll learn how to get experience directly through your athletic appliance. It's science and practice training as both the classroom and the lab because we all learn best by feeling and doing. So if you're interested in how we can better scale best practice coaching and bridge science with applied sport, you'll want to take a look. You'll find everything over at Athletica AI. We'll see you there. Super cool. In the case where someone hasn't heard of it before, we'll definitely link to the knowledge substack and anything else that you want with respect to that. That's super cool that you've made that transition almost from right at the coal face doing the athlete coaching and the training Right. Within the, you know, the confines of the, of the, of the teams and the clubs and then now to private, private work. So. Sounds familiar. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. How's, how's the journey been there?
- [21:34]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think it's, I, I, I think I, I, I now focusing in what I think I can do, the biggest contribution, you know.
- [21:43]
A
Yeah, that's great.
- [21:44]
B
So I, I take this decision because I think that there are many good coaches out there and knowledge is what can be maybe a bigger contribution from my side, you know.
- [21:58]
A
Perfect. Makes perfect sense for why you've done that. You wanted to talk about The Mole Mineral 2025 sports medicine piece that integrates the low intensity training with the high intensity training across different time courses. And I think you're quite excited by this review and you, you feel to express to me that you feel this could be very important for our field moving forward. Do you want to expand on that? Gabriella, how do you want to frame this next segment of the podcast?
- [22:30]
B
Yeah, I think is a, is a super hot topic because again, I think that too much confusion came across social media, web in the last like five years or 10 years about the debate, you know, low intensity, zone two or high intensity, what is, what is better and the magic workout, the magic be or the holy grail. And you know, just, just like you have to make a decision about Zone 2 or Zone or high intensity. So I think that, I think that it's a super big work did by the Norwegian guys and in that review and I think that in the Next, I don't know, 20 or 30 years maybe will be the most cited work because it's so much work. I read that it, it was a review about, I, I don't, I don't want to be wrong, but 500 studies and nearly 6, 000 participants. So it's, it's, it's so big. But basically in, in my understanding, I think that we can, we can take like three, three main takeaways that balance the debate between low and high intensity training and maybe help to, to make it clear. The first is to, to, to answer, okay, if we standardize the unit of time, what is more effective to improve aerobic adaptations? Low or high intensity, like one hour, just zone two or one hour of intervals. What is, what is better? And unsurprisingly the answer is high intensity. You know, if you, if you pair energy expenditure or if you with similar time, high intensity will be always better to improve each aerobic adaptations. Like the paper was about VO2 max capillary density and mitochondrial adaptations. But I think similar result can be found with all aerobic cascade. What aerobic adaptation like stroke volume or whatever. So this is the first takeaway. If you, if you train two hours per week, it's very likely that you will get better results if you do intervals two times per week especially and is linked to the third main takeaway, especially if the time frame is like just four weeks or five weeks or six weeks. So I don't know. Also with all your heat experience, what do you think about this, this first point?
- [25:02]
A
Yeah, from a, you know, a concentration of, of work in a short, in a, in a given time period. Absolutely. Hit hit wins out in a, in a given time period. And we had, we had Christy Storchjack I believe her name is, who wrote the, the review with Martin Gabala and colleagues and one of the key, you know, and she was yeah, much ado about Zone two. So we had her on the podcast and she was kind of like you, within a, within a certain certain time course hit training, it, it wins out within a, you know, within a small. We're just talking about an hour of, of hit or an hour of, of Zone two. Well, you know your hit training is, is going to win out. Yeah, we know, we know the real, you know, the bigger picture. Right. I won't spoil it. And listeners, you know, listeners probably going off something, something, something different will come here now. So you know, we don't, we don't just train our athletes with you, you
- [26:05]
B
just assist me for the second point. Yeah, that is, that is endurance athletes, unlike lab control training study that want to show a principle and never train like a limited amount of time, like 3 hours per week or 5 hours per week or 6 hours per week. But I would say at least 10 hours per week. It can depend. But yeah, I would say that. And if you allow a larger volume of low intensity as normally occurs in a real world scenario, the review show that the difference is cancelled. So low intensity training can give you the same benefit, the same aerobic benefit of high intensity training if you allow for a larger volume. And that's natural because per unit of time high intensity training is more effective but also it brings more stress and strain the days after. So you can't, you can't allow the same volume that you can do with low intensity. And I think also in this topic you did some, some good research with rovers and HRV on this topic years ago and correct me if I'm wrong but you show that in a Long period of preparation with eye level athletes. The amount of high intensity training is linked to decreased hrv which is not good for autonomic balance and recovery. But low intensity training is unrelated or slightly positive related with improved HRV in the long term.
- [27:46]
A
So yeah, yeah. Dan Plews's PhD is, is ultimately with the New Zealand rowing squad. He showed exactly that, you know, a rigorous monitoring of the, of the, of the team with HRV across the various different phases and made, made observations exactly as you describe. If you want to lower HRV or you know, which is basically a parasympathetic withdrawal or a, and likely we can infer likely a sympathetic efflux, you know, more stress is there then it's. Yeah, we want sustainable, repeatable, you know, training because we know training consistency is one of the key things that, that elicits that's related to successful performance. Well, if you want to keep getting the stimulus, the signal, you need to have the, the longer time at the lower durations below the thresholds.
- [28:42]
B
Right.
- [28:43]
A
As soon as there's something about that threshold number where as soon as we start going up above that we start to have more of the sympathetic system or the parasympathetic kind of goes away and it's not sustainable. And we need that sustainable cadence of regular signal and stimulus to make the adaptations that we're after. So again, this, now we're back favoring the other side of the equation with the, with the low intensity training below, below threshold. So that. And longer durations, longer time courses on those because it can be done, right? It can't be done at the high intensity.
- [29:23]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that with these two points it becomes very easy. Like, you know, the paper show that is more effective high intensity training, but the paper didn't show that. But other studies show that you can do a lot of work at that intensity and you can, you can do complementary work at low and medium intensity which also stimulate the same aerobic adaptations. And so you sum up in a smart way that at the end of the day is pyramidal and polarized. Is not, is nothing, is not like nothing new is doing that kind of intensity distribution.
- [30:03]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So again, we got to go credit to Stephen Seiler who really was the father who brought this forth. When Stephen's the Texan that goes to Norway and sees that the Norwegians are training completely different than the Americans and he puts this out and this has become the polarized method and of course there's lots of nuance in the whole thing. The polarized method almost becomes the Norwegian method. But yeah, it is laden with low intensity. And then I've just finished submitting my chapter work to Tim Noakes on the lore running the fifth edition that's coming out. And Tim, even in the fourth edition, Tim brings forth some old fashioned coaches, one with a last name osler. And in 1967 this coach, he was making these observations that the athletes really needed this low intensity period of time. And of course Lydiard took this, this information as well, right? Classic New Zealand Lydiard where he called it adaptation energy. And if they didn't also have this low intensity stimulus as a base to their, their being and their physiology, the high intensity work that they did just did not pay off. And yeah, it was just so you got to have this again in the Osler theory, this adaptation energy, low intensity training below that in order for the high intensity work to actually be absorbed by the body and adapted to, so you can make these adaptations. And Yngvil Odin was another one on the podcast and I'm not sure if you've seen her work, but it was fascinating where she looked at these two groups of high intensity. They did it in Norway where they, in the Norwegian sports science school where they take these, these cyclists who are actually in school and every single session was actually done on the, with the VO2 Max cart. So they had VO2 for every single session. And then she, you know, it was about 20 cyclists. And then she retrospectively after the doing this, all of this high intensity interval training through the, you know, over, over months, she went back and looked at the ones that adapted to it and the ones that didn't. And lo and behold, the ones that adapted to the high intensity interval training were the ones that had more zone one training as a base below their, their hit sessions. The ones that didn't have that had a significantly more lower zone one. They didn't adapt to the high intensity training. So you can flog yourself and do all that hiit training and at the high level you might not actually adapt if you don't have that base potentially that, you know, Osler's adaptation energy behind you. So I think that, that's a fascinating finding to me. And, and one, I, you know, the importance for the low intensity work to complement the high intensity work as you're, as you're describing. Gabriella.
- [33:23]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's, it's, yeah, I, I read that. I think it's. Ingvil is a Norwegian name.
- [33:31]
A
Yeah, I think it was in, in Vilgon in Invilogen.
- [33:34]
B
Yeah, I don't know. I, I know the name but not the pronunciation in Norwegian, you know.
- [33:38]
A
Yeah, I'm probably smashing her name as well. So apologies, apologies involved. But yeah, she's, yeah, she's a lovely, lovely person. Lovely, lovely fast. It was about, you know, it's probably about 50 episodes back now. I can't actually remember the number but it was a great one. I've. And I've used that example many, many times since. So it's because I think it's, I think it's a really important one.
- [34:00]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah maybe to finish the. We can see the third, the third main takeaways of that super review and I think it's even the more at least for me it's the most interesting when I was reading and trying to, to dig in the paper to understand details and is the, the time course the different, the the upper end different time courses of low and high intensity training. So basically high intensity training is more effective per unit of time. We can compensate with a larger volume of low intensity training and obtain the same effect. But maybe the, the main thing is the time course. So if, if we look at like 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks and generally up to 10, 15 weeks higher the intensity, higher the aerobic adaptations but in the paper, in the analysis, they seems to plateau earlier than low intensity. So, so the, the takeaway, the practical application is quite clear that if you, if you are looking for long term development and a longer time frame, low intensity training permits. Permits you to develop continuously without reaching a plateau earlier in the training program. If you just start with high intensity training very early and you keep it steady for all the program, at some point it seems like you, you just plateau and you can't get any more benefits from this kind of training.
- [35:44]
A
It's interesting. So what I hear you saying is that you know, the, I mean you're kind of almost describing what I would call classic periodization low intensity training before you know, quality work that's usually specific to the race demands.
- [35:58]
B
Right.
- [35:59]
A
And for all, for probably for a bunch of reasons that I've just already, we've, we've articulated but you know there, there is some evidence and I'm not quite clear. I don't think we totally know. I think there's lots of different ways to skin a cat. But I don't actually mind having a small touch of high intensity training in the base period. Like, like just to be exclusive of it. I don't, I think in a small Dose it can be, it can be favorable. I think Rolstead showed that earlier on. I can't remember the year but I remember it was a classic paper where he, he showed that if, if cyclists did just one high intensity interval training session in a week from off season, like so imagine, you know, you're finishing, you've done your season and you're in
- [36:52]
B
the total to avoid the training. Yeah, yeah.
- [36:55]
A
You, if you just do one high intensity training can just, you know, like the 30 30s that we just talked about do that once per week compared to those that, that do nothing and basically just do low intensity training. Guess, guess who starts off the next phase at the higher level? Of course the, the individual that just, just did that one high intensity interval training session in their week, in the, in the three weeks where they were so called off or in their, their, their low intensity phase. So I don't, I don't. I think it's probably coach nuance and that, you know, the coaches are going to be listening to this. I think it's, you know, something to consider and I don't. And if it's done properly with a short stimulus and it's not overly taxing, then I think it's, it's acceptable practice potentially. I'm not sure sure your thoughts?
- [37:46]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah. As you said, the, the big review suggests with the different time courses classic periodization but should not be seen in practice. Like black and white, black and then white like at the beginning, just completely and exclusively low intensity. And then you can add high intensity. You can progressively build up high intensity. You can put a little bit even during the base period but should not be like the final part, you know.
- [38:19]
A
Yeah.
- [38:21]
B
It's also linked to progressive overload. And yeah, reading these results, I also put together with a nice recent paper of Steven Saylor about the molecular mechanism of adaptations behind it training. That I think is also something that you mentioned many years ago in maybe 2010 paper or something like that.
- [38:48]
A
Good memory. Yep.
- [38:51]
B
And basically what was interesting and linked with this new big review is that it seems like the molecular adaptations of high intensity training have auto inhibition feedback. I don't know what is the English term, but after you, you did some session, it's the same molecular stimulus are not activated or effective anymore at biomolecular level to induce aerobic adaptations. While the one linked to low intensity, that is more calcium concentration.
- [39:29]
A
Calcium carmodulent. Can ask.
- [39:31]
B
Yeah, it doesn't have this kind of inhibition feedback during time. Some paper seem to show this and this Maybe can explain why you each, you reach plateau earlier with high intensity while you don't reach a plateau in aerobic adaptations with low intensity. I don't know if it's clear.
- [39:50]
A
No, it's very cool. So what I think you're saying so again just to get just to the basis I remember being in that room with Bengsbo, Inigo Magico, Stephen Seiler, we were all in Denmark for this, this symposium on high intensity training. And I wrote the high intensity high volume training. And what I brought forth was actually I stole it from Keith Barr, but it was looking at AMPK and it was calcium calmodulin kinase. I know I sort of put the two together with ampk, Adenosine monosin phosphate kinase. Like basically when your ATP levels are really dropped in high intensity training, it's a strong signal for PGC1alpha, which is mitochondrial biogenesis precursor signal. And then like you also mentioned Gabriella, the calcium, like when you're, when your muscle is always contracting, there's calcium that's always got to be released and that signals calcium calmodulin kinase. And this is so it's like you can have a long, long signal with calcium in your muscles if they're always contracting. And, but, and you're saying that maybe there's almost a resistance to the AMPK signal I think is what you're saying. If you're, you know, it's only so powerful and you don't want to hit it all the time potentially and maybe you need to just spare it so that for certain times. In other words, which again would support the classic periodization observation that coaches make.
- [41:27]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was something suggested by, by Sailor in his paper. I think it's the paper it's named like it's about the long, the long game and not epic workout. Something like that. Yeah, I saw that.
- [41:39]
A
I saw that. I didn't read it, but I did see it.
- [41:40]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [41:41]
A
So, yeah.
- [41:42]
B
So he suggested based on, on some molecular studies that. Yeah, exactly what you said, that the ATP and amp with the English, the, the letter, I have to remember the pronunciation. But ATP amp pattern to activate PGC1 Alpha doesn't respond or doesn't activate properly anymore. If you repeat the stimulus continuously over time, over weeks, you, you, you, you lose responsiveness from a molecular biology point of view, while the calcium that is more linked to low intensity, we can speculate that it, it doesn't have this kind of auto inhibition over the, the workouts. So, and I think it's important to say that Is like it could be. Not that it's, that's it. It could be the, an explanation for the different time courses of low intensity and high intensity training.
- [42:41]
A
Yeah, it's a hypothesis, it's a theory, but it's, yeah, that's, that's, it would make a lot of sense for some of the observations we make. Very cool. Do you think we've done that segment justice? Gabriella, should we move to the. Because the last one I want to talk about is the work, the work in durability that you've done, you know, in, in many areas, especially with the work that you've done in, in New Zealand and yeah, just your whole thoughts on that topic. We, we've had, we had Gilam Millay on the podcast and he, he was, he, he, he, you know, he was kind of, he was, he was, he wasn't too fond of durability. At the end of the day he just thinks it's fatigability, it's that we're looking at it a different way. But of course, you know Ed, and, and you know, Andrew Jones would think opposite and think this is really, this is the fourth dimension. So it's, I think it's great to have these differences of opinion on, on the topic. At the end of the day we are looking at, you know, can you hold, you know, a maximal mean power or pace that you, that you are afresh versus fatigue? Is that, is that how you think about durability and define it?
- [43:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just to complement this overview of different point of view, I did a post, I think it was only on LinkedIn and you know, Andrew Kogan. Oh yeah, commented me and say that durability is just a marketing term and he said we. So they already knew the concept like I don't know, 30 years ago and it's stamina. So you know, different terms and maybe we are speaking about the same thing.
- [44:22]
A
Yeah, that was, that was Gilam's argument. Keys, keys argument I believe too.
- [44:27]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, I think that it, it could be true that at the end of the day we are just speaking about the ability to perform during, during very long exercise. In my point of view I support the poor durability term. That is the ability to decrease as much as less, as less as possible performance and physiology over prolonged exercise. But I think it is just like you can call in the term that you want. But I think we are speaking of the same thing and I, I for example, if you watch like Tour de France on television and many Times I, I hear like, okay, it's a good rider but it fades away during the longest races at the end of the race. I think that's durability, that's fatigue resistance, that's stamina, that's, it's just like little nuances and different how you measure it. But I think they, they are all correlates, the definitions. If you do a study, you take all the definitions, you took the data point exactly how they define the measurement. I think that at the end of the day there is like almost perfect correlation, you know.
- [45:48]
A
Totally. So yeah, so, so yeah, I mean this is something that we all want to not have or we want to have strong durability, we want to have less fatiguing in the ends of races. We want to, you know, it's likely that the more our, you know, physiology holds or our performance holds towards the end, the more successful we will be. So what are the factors in your mind that relate to enhanced durability or reduced fatigue resistance over long durations?
- [46:26]
B
Yeah, I think the, the, the, the most on, the most honest answer for me is I don't know. We don't know. You know, because science is, it is true that is something that is going on on the field with coaches like 30 years ago, 40 years ago, 50 years ago. But from a poor scientific point of view it's, it's new research. So we are still trying to understand what are the physiological determinants. Coming back to the PMEP model, the physiological determinants of durability. I think that the, as now the main determinant is carbon carbohydrate availability. So not necessary only glycogen but generally speaking carbohydrate availability. So there is the, you know, the interplay between blood glucose and, and glycogen. But I think that's the main thing. So to keep, especially to be able to do high intensity efforts at the end of a two or three or four hours efforts. Carbohydrate availability is one thing that has been shown to be related to durability. But I think the most interesting thing is that the study that showed that find a small or moderate positive relationship, not like a large relationship. For example, I think there was a Clark study from the, from the team of Andrew Jones that showed that glycogen depletion was related but in a small, in a small magnitude with durability in their study. So my question is what are the other factors? You know, if carbohydrate availability is one important factor, what are the others? And Yeah, I think that what I say now it's more my opinion it's not so backed by data. But I think that again we can go back to the pmep and your 2006 review. After all they all speaking about the same thing. And I think muscle trauma or damage is one thing that is understudied at the moment. You know, especially for the high impact sports like running can be. Can be more important. But also some research show that even during prolonged cycling, even if the contraction is only concentric and it's not weight bearing, some level of muscle damage has been shown in prolonged cycling. So that could be another factor. And I'm not sure that is. That is completely disconnected from. From carbodrate research because I don't know why but one paper from it was. I don't know if it was the first author, but the nutritionist, he was,
- [49:24]
A
he was actually just on the podcast, he was the last and he spoke about the, he spoke about the, the study you're talking about where he showed that in the high carbohydrate group they had reduced muscle damage. And he figured that it was a neuromuscular impact or somehow it manipulated the neuromuscular system to be more resilient. Probably during the eccentric component of. In these mountain runners.
- [49:49]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so my takeaway will be like that. Carbohydrate availability is not only linked to glycogen depletion is very important for glycogen to maintain glycogen levels but can be also influenced other physiological systems like muscle damage and trauma. And the other thing again may be linked very likely linked to also to carbohydrate availability is central fatigue. So I think that is another topic that is understudied in durability field is the connection between central fatigue and durability. Understand it at least in the durability. How we define durability now like with the, you know, with the head and sailor paper, that definition of durability. But I think it makes completely sense because a lot of research show that while shorter efforts like 20 minutes, 10 minutes are more influenced by peripheral fatigue like muscular factors, longer efforts, the contribution or the percentage contribution of central fatigue. So brain or spinal cord or whatever in the central nervous system fatigue is, is become. Becomes more important. So I think that maybe linked to neurotransmitters or just to sodium and potassium for electric signals can be linked to durability in some way. I don't know. These are just speculations.
- [51:18]
A
No, they're great. And I think you're, you're spot on. And that is where, you know, again, itor on the podcast said the same thing. It really is about the, the neuromuscular system. This is what Martin and I have, you know, is kind of our, our, our journey is in that, in that whole area. This, the underappreciation for the importance of the neuromuscular system. I think we're, we're appreciating more and more these days. But, you know, and you know, we had, we had Dr. Marius Bakken on the podcast from the Norwegian Method and he was really talking about the importance of muscle status which linked to the muscle tone, the muscle elasticity and the muscle stiffness and ultimately the central nervous system as a regulator of these three key variables. That's what he was working on optimizing throughout his 30 year journey in, in, in the area, which was, you know, a fascinating learn for me. And just to your point, on the durability and the carbohydrate availability, I think it's, it's, I think there's definitely something there. But I would argue again, there's a, there's a, there's a really cool hypothesis going with, with Tim Noakes's endocrine reviews paper where he's got almost two pools of glucose in the body, a small pool that is basically your liver glycogen and your blood glucose and separated to the large pool which is the muscle glycogen. And he believes again, back to your central fatigue model, that it's really all about protecting the small pool. And I think, I'm not sure if you were an author on the paper with Harrison Dudley Road. Harrison works for Athletica. And again, I think, you know, the carbohydrate dose clearly reduced, sorry, enhanced durability, reduced fatigue towards the end. So there's, there's, but in that context that would, that would be eliciting a, you know, enhancement to the small pool, giving more blood glucose, keeping the brain happy. So I think, I think that's, I mean, I agree with you. The jury's still out. We're still learning all about these things. Also, you were mentioning about the eccentric muscle damage guy. Lamella also on the podcast said exactly that too. That in the context of the Mountain Runner, if you want to protect one thing, protect your muscle damage. And that's why he advocates for the shock weekend where he does these crazy downhill runs on the weekend to build the resiliency in the eccentric contraction because that's a huge afferent signal to the brain to tell you to stop.
- [54:10]
B
Right?
- [54:10]
A
Y. Yeah. I think. I think all your speculations, Gabriella are spot on.
- [54:16]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And I want us to share with you. Not maybe it's not like thinking about speculation, but something that I saw when I was at AU My study that I performed there was what was very fun. It was time to exhaustion. 90% of first threshold. So imagine how many hours in the lab. So to get together with Ed, we put a cup at six hours. And there were guys that lasted like I think the shortest was two hours or. And two guys arrived at six hours. Two guys. So I was six hours in the lab. And so the goal was another one was not to determine the physiological determinants of durability, but was the time course to beat each hour how much was decreasing VT1 with an incremental test during this time to exhaustion. So 90% of VT1. Then after one hour incremental test for VT1, then again one hour at 90% of VT1 and again the incremental test each hour until exhaustion. And what I want to share is what I saw was that outside the measurements and the study that was describing the time course it was that I felt that each different guy or there were different reasons for. For failure. You know, someone different symptoms just looking and staying there for many hours looking people pedaling and, and. And getting. Getting dead. I saw someone like, like hypoglycemia symptoms like, like, you know, lack of vision like.
- [56:00]
A
And shaking, bonking or hitting the wall, whatever you want to call it.
- [56:05]
B
Yeah, like. Like, I don't know shaking like. Yeah. Blind vision. I don't know what is the English term, but you know.
- [56:12]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:14]
B
And. And someone else like with no pain in the muscles, other guys with pain in the muscles, other guys cramping other guys just describing feeling empty. So completely different. So same end point like failure. They cannot hold the power anymore. But I saw it was 12 guys. I would say at least six or seven completely different scenarios. And so I would say that the prevalent physiological factor for durability can. Can be different. Can be different according to different athletes.
- [56:57]
A
Yeah, totally. There was nothing related to the fat oxidation levels and the, and the, and the riders going. Going six hours.
- [57:06]
B
Yeah, that. This is one other very interesting thing. So we found that fat oxidation during exercise so at specific at 90% of VT1 was related to durability and time to exhaustion. But I think the important thing to mention here is that was with no. The design was with no carbs ingestion during the trial.
- [57:30]
A
Yeah.
- [57:30]
B
So from my point of view, but again it's a speculation is my point of view in nature like we, we were. We were born in nature like many many years ago. Fat oxidation is clearly 100 linked to durability. Yeah but with the. I don't know how we, we want to call them the, the carbon, the carb revolution that we had in the last years maybe at least in part the place of durability moved somewhere also somewhere else than only fat oxidation and can be or maybe just the percentage of other factors increased compared to fat oxidation like all what we said before. So again, central fatigue.
- [58:20]
A
Yeah.
- [58:20]
B
Neuromuscular factors, muscle trauma. But yeah, I think that the most, the most honest answer is that I don't know. Or. Or we don't know. I don't know.
- [58:30]
A
Totally. 18 sport coaches. This is the one you've been waiting for. Dr. Martin Bashetti Brand new course Metabolic conditioning for team sports is now live at hitscience. In just four focused hours, Martin distills his latest research so you can build repeated effort capacity without pointless mileage. Pick the HIT format that matches each of your players profile and dose your sessions precisely. No more over or under training you get lifetime access, full course handouts, a hit science certificate and C CEUs all for just 2.99. You won't find this value elsewhere, so head over to the HIT Science website, hit the pop up and enroll. We'll see you on the inside. Hey team, big news. We have just launched the new Athletica athlete app, what We've been calling App 2 and it's the closest thing yet to having a sports scientist in your pocket. So this isn't another static training plan, it's an AI coach that you can actually talk to. Ask it how recovered am I today or should I change this session? Or why is the week set up as it is? And it answers based on your training files, your history and your load response over time. Under the hood, it's powered by the same Hit Science principles that we talk about on the individualized interval training, critical power and pace, HRV guided load management and polarized training distribution. On top of that, you get a completely new sleek interface and a full training experience. Experience integrated community in app help and Athletica U education built right into the platform so that you understand the why behind every session, not just the what. There's very little out there that can read and analyze your files, keep tabs on your recovery and coach you using proven sports science. But that's exactly what we've built in Athletica's new app 2. Head on over to Athletic AI and check it out today with a free trial. Hey team. At Hitscience we've learned that the best knowledge doesn't just come come from books or labs. It grows through conversations with other coaches, practitioners and athletes in the field. And that's why we've created the Hitscience community. A global space to connect, share and turn sport and coaching science into practice. Inside you'll find free courses, applied discussions and a worldwide network of professionals who push each other forward. So don't just keep up with the science, be part of shaping it. Join the Hitscience community today for free. Simply access through our website, our socials or click the link in our show notes. Look forward to working with you on the inside side. Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm, I'm just, I'm, I have my own coaching experience as well. So I've had two, two Ironman triathletes these guys and the practice was an eight hour fasted ride, right? And they would be doing, they would be doing that at close to, close to 90% of their, of their VT1. So these, these guys are, you know, these guys are beasts. They're top of the, top of the world. They, they both went on to win separate Ironman world event. And yes, a fat oxidation clearly important in an eight hour fasted ride, right? You've got to have a robust system. Now that's not to say we didn't work on the other end as well, right? When the performance is on to your point, the carb revolution, carbolution, you throw the gas on the fire when it's time for performance. And again to Idar's point, this is where you may get also that neuromuscular stimulus, you know, and not even an oxidation sort of issue but more of a, more of a neuromuscular stimulus that sort of raises your, raises your game and takes you to the new level because of course you're not racing Ironman, say for example at 90% of VT1, you're racing it at, you know, 90% of, you know. Well, you're probably 10% above VT1 at least, right? So it's a lot more, a lot more high intensity, so. Or maybe even higher. But anyways, yeah, so again my huge bias and always has been is that durability must have a fat oxidation component and I think it also probably has a training component. Like we know when we train we talked about the various different signals that we induce with ampk, the calcium Calmodulin, where you're telling that muscle fiber to develop more mitochondria and be a better, be a better fat burner. So that, you know, training itself, of course, is also going to help with durability. Now what, what component of durability are you after? What maximal mean time, sorry, maximum mean power or maximum mean pace range are you looking to prevent? Back to the, we'll take a performance model, not the physiological model. Let's just reverse engineer the performance that we're after and say we need to maximize 5 minutes MMP after, after 3 hours for argument's sakes. That's going to be the demand. Well, we can get, you know, we might be able to get actually insight into that if we're looking at ratios of those maximal mean powers in given contexts. And you know, because we have power meters, we have time, we have all this software, we can look back at ratios of that and looking at what percentage you are at relative to history. And I'm describing here the Athletica workout Reserve invented by Dr. Andreas Ignoli, your countryman.
- [63:56]
B
So I met him at a congress, I had a good conversation with him at a congress.
- [64:01]
A
Perfect. So we believe that workout reserve, just looking at ratios of this, historically, what you've done in the past to what you're actually doing in the demand, which you'll get with workout reserve, is a marker of durability itself. You're getting durability markers through workout reserve because you can always look at that ratio, how deep you've gone in any, any given context relative to the, the past, at least the last six weeks of training. So you see how prepared you were or not. And I think if you're prepared for a race, if you've just like you said, Gabriella, how you prepared your athletes, you gave them the physiological model first, you prepared their, their body physiologically and then you gave them specific performance tasks that they were going to have to perform on the day. Well, how. And then you, then you have the race itself. How close were they to that, that preparation? So I think you get a lot of information through Andrea's workout reserve.
- [65:11]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think this can be also linked to, especially for road cycling is like, and also I did a study during the PhD about this is like where do you position the high intensity efforts during the micro cycle and during, during the long workouts? Like, and it's, it's not, it's not already published, but we found some data that can suggest that for just pure aerobic development and physiological development, dividing High intensity, putting it in short sessions and performing aside long, low intensity session can be good to optimize, can be better. Was not significant for all the variables, but can be for some variables, aerobic variables to develop just the aerobic engine while putting together high intensity and long workouts. So for example, intervals after three hours or after four hours can be better for durability. So I don't know if, if I, if I was clear with my English about this.
- [66:26]
A
Oh yeah, no, you were very, very clear. And this is, you know, this is one of Andrea's arguments. And he actually showed this with you know, the Bardiani, your Bartyarni cycling team, right. Where he's, he's a collaborator with that, with that coaching group. And he showed in a study that's been published European journal Sports Sciences actually shows how different the energy system contribution, the predicted energy system contribution. Again leveraging Gaston's classic 2001 paper on energy systems in relation to time course and how that is completely different when you're performing. I believe it was a, you know, a three minute all out and a ten minute all out after, you know, after three hours versus before. So fresh versus fatigued. This is durability and the, you know, in the after three hours it's all aerobic energy. So think about that from the physiological, you know, forming mindset in terms of like your physiological model for training. What system do you want to develop? Do you want to develop 3 hour or 3 minutes and 3 minutes and 10 minutes fresh or do you want to develop 3 minutes and 10 minutes fatigued after 3 hours? Principal specificity, right? Yeah, so yeah.
- [67:50]
B
And again I think it's also linked to periodization. Like again during the base you can be less specific and put efforts maybe separated from long rides. And then in the second part, if you are targeting durability in the race, it's better to become more and more specific especially if the athletes durability is not so, so good as a baseline level. You can move in the second part of the periodization through specificity and put intervals in the second part at least is the, is what data seems to suggest and what I, what I tried to, to also implement with athletes.
- [68:26]
A
Amazing.
- [68:28]
B
I think it is especially interesting with like young riders like U19 and Continental because usually they start from a lower durability because it seems to improve with the years durability both with data and field experience from coaches. And I think you can, you can learn a lot following young riders and seeing how they struggle and how they adapt to durability. With different strategies and over time.
- [68:58]
A
Yeah, definitely, definitely good guinea pigs. But we're all learning in the whole process. And yeah, and of course the monitoring tools, what do you monitor? What are the key things that you want to monitor in an ecologically valid context with your riders? What are the things you're always trying to track and just put your coach and trainer hat on for the moment.
- [69:27]
B
What do you mean for durability?
- [69:30]
A
Well, actually just, just anything like what's, what's really important for you as a trainer coach to, to your overall team and the rider and to, you know.
- [69:39]
B
Yeah, what's, what's the fee?
- [69:41]
A
What's the feedback loop? You know?
- [69:42]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that one thing that I, I particularly value is that okay, we can have a lot of matrix, many, many, many different matrix. Sometimes we can do standardized tests but I think I don't know how to state this concept but it's like to have a communication and relationship with the rider so that you can ask physiological backed questions linked to how to improve performance without using physiology terms so that the athlete understand answer with no physiological terms. But because you know how he communicates or she communicates, you know what he's saying from a physiological point of view to improve performance.
- [70:34]
A
Yeah, that's awesome.
- [70:36]
B
I don't know, I don't know if it's crazy or clear the concept.
- [70:39]
A
Yeah, well you're talking about athlete comments and the communication, the verbal or even non verbal communication.
- [70:46]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. For example, you are debriefing the race and at some points he struggle or she struggles and you ask question like it's simple question. It's not like black magic or whatever. It's not hypnosis. It's like okay, you, you cracked at that time. How did you feel? And you, you, you, you ask about okay, I was your legs or you were lack of breathing or you feel like from the beginning, blah blah blah. And then he answered of course not. Is not saying my durability is not saying like my stroke volume is not saying like my fibers is just talking. But when he's talking you reverse engineering and say okay, maybe this is physiologically linked to this and I can put this other thing in training, you know.
- [71:35]
A
Yeah.
- [71:35]
B
So I think this, I don't know if it is a form of monitoring but I think it's is more effective. Is not more effective that. But is at least as much as effective as looking at training load internal external ratios or records after kill jobs or whatever. But I think and I also see the future of sports Science in this way is an interconnection between neurophysiology, communication and physiology. Exercise physiology, you know. Yeah. To understand things.
- [72:10]
A
Well that's perfect. That was a segue for my last question. How do you feel this whole world of AI and the, and the data is, is, is going to involve and what's the next step of our, you know, our evolution of enhancing performance? How is, how's it gonna play out?
- [72:27]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think of course AI is and will be a thing not only sports science but in the future. But what I was saying also, and I'm also interesting in that is connecting just exercise physiology to I don't know if it's psychology, emotion linked to or neural physiology and connect this thing together for holistic approach to performance. That is what coaching, what coach are saying from here's. But there are no studies about that. So for example, how emotions affect, e.g. intra individual variability in training adaptations, emotions inside training, outside training. And so for example, how can you fix or adjust the environment to improve of the emotion and maybe the adaptation. So these kind of things, you know, I'm very interested in. But what, what I always remember to myself when I read studies, when I that like we are at the, at the sunset of Sports Science in 2026, you know, that in, in 100 here or 200 years, everyone will laugh at us. Looking back, what were they saying? Like what, what they were doing and you know, our papers will be, you know, because what I, I don't know, I don't know what you think, but what is the first paper of sports science, the first year of sports science? What can we consider? I don't know. It's a question that sometimes I make myself.
- [74:10]
A
Yeah. Oh, I don't know. I mean a lot of people go back to A.V. hill in 1925 with his, you know, time course of you know, intensity versus duration, pa and then VO2 max thereafter. But that's sort of, you know, a lot of people pinpoint that as the start and then of course evolved and continues to speed up and now it's crazy, right? And now we have the AI revolution and the interrelationship as you mentioned, between all of these factors. I couldn't agree more. That is the fascinating and most exciting point. Right. And again this is where our athletica platform is doing such an incredible job where we're integrating Dan Plews's HRV work. Right. And full analysis there. And we integrate, you know, all of the hit science, you know, training, physiological training principles and then we're also integrating the comments and with large language models, we're using semantic analysis. Right. So yeah, looking at the frequency of joyous words versus sad words and that tells us something about the emotional state of the individual. And again, this is not something that a single coach can go and just go find out themselves. They do, we do sort of what you're saying, Gabriela, from your intelligence and your ability to read people and your experience as a coach, that's all there and enabling you to be effective in your job. And coaches listening will be nodding and saying yeah, that's me. But sometimes we can't catch it all. And to actually have a tool that helps us with larger numbers or finding the little nuance and flagging it for us, I believe that's really the. And to your point about. It's all about the holistic package because there's so many elements like you were sort of saying you were making your observation on the six hour rides at 90% VT1. Like there's so many different nuances to things that are potentially causing people to fatigue. And you know, as Martin and I always say, it's context, always. And it's the coach that can read that. But then it's machines that can help us with the reading and interpretation of that.
- [76:28]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I think one last thing is that it would be very, very, very nice to have technology to track not adaptations, but maybe biomolecular signaling in real time. Like you know, PGC1 Alpha and what we spoke about before. If we can track in real time, that can be like the, you know, the theory of everything, you know, because if you can track one thing that the, the director of the symphony in the adaptations in real time, it's like having with one information also you can develop more better AI too with a tool like that. But I think, I'm not into technology development and biological molecular biology. English. Yeah, but I, I don't, I don't know if we are near this. I don't, I, I don't think so.
- [77:30]
A
No, not yet. But maybe in 100 years when they're back laughing at us like you said then may, maybe, yeah, maybe, maybe then. But for now, you know, I think, I think it was just an amazing conversation. Gabriella, where can people go to knowledge is what, where, where, where can they find. Find out more about you and all the incredible information that you give both for free and for paid.
- [77:54]
B
Yeah. So I, if you just Google knowledge is what you, you can find. So on social media, Instagram is the main one you can find thousands of infographics for free about scientific studies or scientific concept related to endurance training. Endurance performance. And this is completely free. If you want more is on payment. But it's just like I think it's €60 per year or €7 per month. On substack you can find the knowledge is that all the resources, all contents that are research reviews, how to apply concept related to scientific concept and also calculator. So everything is on substack while a lot of free is on Instagram.
- [78:42]
A
Perfect. Well, we'll include all those links in the show notes. If people can't find you themselves, I'm sure they can. But yeah. Gabriela Gallo, it was just an incredible conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it and I'm sure the listeners will as well. So yeah, thanks for what you do.
- [79:03]
B
Yeah, I enjoy it too because as I told you when you invited me to the podcast first, I remember when I was reading your paper as a first year student at bachelor degree. So yeah, it was really nice also for me.
- [79:16]
A
Well, thanks for showing my age at the end there. But that's all good. That's all good. Awesome. Gabriela, on behalf of Hit Science Athletica, Martin Bashite and the whole team, thanks again. And until the next time, all the best.