#84 The Science and Soul of Speech Communication with Dr. Phil Schneider

Summary

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Podcast Summary

TranscendingX Episode #84:

The Science and Soul of Speech Communication with Dr. Phil Schneider
Released: May 22, 2025 | Host: Uri Schneider | Guest: Dr. Phil Schneider

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Episode Overview

This deeply personal and inspiring episode features a rare, multigenerational conversation between speech therapist/coach Uri Schneider and his father, the renowned Dr. Phil Schneider. Together, they delve into the intertwining science and soul of speech, voice, and communication. Drawing on raw stories from Dr. Phil's decades-long career, they examine the bedrock importance of connection, curiosity, and presence in overcoming communication challenges such as stuttering, voice disorders, and the shadows of shame or perfectionism. Dr. Phil's lived wisdom—shaped by his clients, his own journey with Parkinson’s, and his role as teacher, parent, and patient—brings universal insights for professionals, people who stutter, and anyone longing to step into their voice and purpose.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Communication as Connection, Not Just Speech

• Speech vs. Communication ([00:00], [17:37], [23:42])
  • Dr. Phil opens by stressing: “Speech is a physical act, but that’s not the goal… If your speech is the goal, the room could be empty and you could speak out loud… but there’s no connection going on” ([00:00]).
  • True communication is communion—seeing, connecting, making eye contact, feeling someone beyond words.
  • Notable quotes:
    • “To communion means to come together, to connect.” ([17:37])
    • “There are great, great communicators… who have all kinds of different speaking styles... The issue is communicate.” ([21:42])

2. Curiosity, Belief in People, & Transformative Stories

• The Power of Listening and Humility ([03:30])
  • Dr. Phil recalls his first professional encounter: a young student who stuttered but was fiercely self-assured.
  • Quote: “He was my first teacher… you don’t really know what a person needs or wants. The only thing you can do is really listen and try to care and try to understand” ([03:30]).
• The Story of Gladys ([08:56])
  • A 12-year-old blind girl, thought to have no voice, becomes Dr. Phil's obsession and inspiration.
  • Against all odds, Gladys found her singing voice and stepped onto the stage—changing Dr. Phil’s destiny in the process.
  • Quote: “She sang in the school show. She hadn’t yet spoken, but she sang… Gladys sent me back to school for five years… I may have contributed to her life in some way, but she certainly changed the course of mine.” ([08:56])

3. The Science and Spirituality of Breathing and Voice

• Physiology Meets Philosophy ([13:45])
  • Breathing is both a biological act and a metaphor: “The word for air coming into your body is inspiration. One is to feel impassioned… the other is air to flow into you, which gives you the oxygen to be alive…” ([13:45])
  • Observation of becoming upright, learning to speak, and the pre-programmed miracle of speech.

4. Presence, Eye Contact, and Authenticity

• Public Speaking and Connection ([17:37], [21:42])
  • Connection starts with the eyes, not the words.
  • Story of helping the Lubavitcher Rebbe communicate post-stroke through intense eye contact, transcending words.
  • “When I came into his presence, we locked eyes and I had this sense that I had to be rigorously honest with every word… we connected.” ([19:53])

5. Labels, Shame, and the Journey with Disability

• Personal Vulnerability: Parkinson’s ([34:53])
  • Dr. Phil details how developing Parkinson’s revealed the depth of shame—mirroring what many clients feel about stuttering or other disorders:
  • “I immediately didn’t want anyone to see it… my mind was like, what am I going to do with my hand?... it became a focus of my inner attention.” ([35:01])
  • He touches on the energy lost to hiding, and the liberation of disclosure.
• Moving from Shame to Openness ([37:15], [42:37])
  • Bringing vulnerability forward invites intimacy and genuine connection with others.
  • “Opening up about these things becomes very humanizing and things can get richer in the quality of your connections.” ([42:37])
  • “Everyone’s got something that they’re dealing with… we’re all, again, connected at another level of vulnerability.”

6. Transformation, Growth Mindset, & Nonlinear Change

• Hope at Any Age ([44:31])
  • On starting boxing for Parkinson’s at age 68:
    • “So long as there’s life and there’s breath, there’s possibility.” ([45:05])
  • On the danger of labels and the unpredictability of change:
    • “Change is nonlinear. It doesn’t follow the trajectory of a straight line… at many moments, you’re dealing with less impactful symptoms than you were a long time ago.” ([52:29])

7. Clinical Teaching & Bringing Feelings into Therapy ([26:35], [29:15], [30:39])

• Advice for educators: Pair every class with a real clinical interaction, not just textbook lectures.
• Importance of emotion for both therapist and client:
  • “When someone cries in your presence, you don’t necessarily know their story, but you feel their cry. And you cry too often… the professor isn’t just a book that’s moving, it’s starting to feel, but it has feelings and care. And that gets experienced by the students.” ([30:39])

8. For Parents and Professionals: Listening, Fear, and Hope ([53:56])

• Honor parents’ fears rather than rushing to fix:
  • “When parents come to us because they have a child who stutters, they’re very frightened... They become centered on the fact that their way of speaking… will destroy that dream [of happiness].” ([53:56])
  • Therapists, too, can feel pressure and fear “maybe we blew it, maybe somebody else could do better… we have a struggle.”
• For young adults:
  • Necessity of keeping imagination alive and stimulating possibility.
  • “That kind of paradoxical shift from the dark to the light is not an isolated event… we have to energize that.” ([57:14])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Listening & Humility:
  “You don’t really know what a person needs or wants. The only thing you can do is really listen and try to care and try to understand.”
  – Dr. Phil Schneider ([03:30])

• On Connection:
  “Speech is a physical act, but that’s not the goal… To communion means to come together, to connect.”
  – Dr. Phil Schneider ([00:00]; [17:37])

• On Shame:
  “I immediately didn’t want anyone to see it… And it became a focus of my inner attention.”
  – Dr. Phil Schneider, on Parkinson’s ([35:01])

• On Transformation:
  “So long as there’s life and there’s breath, there’s possibility.”
  – Dr. Phil Schneider ([45:05])

• On Nonlinear Change:
  “Change is nonlinear. It doesn’t follow the trajectory of a straight line…”
  – Uri Schneider ([52:29])

• On Teaching:
  “People going to become college professors and lecturing… but you recognize you are awed by witnessing change... you don’t simply have the information about labels… you recognize there’s a potential.”
  – Dr. Phil Schneider ([30:39])

• On Perspective:
  “Everyone has their own personal stamp… and the issue is communicate.”
  – Dr. Phil Schneider ([21:42])

• On Adversity:
  “It didn’t define me, it refined me.”
  – Quoted by Uri Schneider ([58:16])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:30] – Dr. Phil’s first experience with a student who stuttered and the lesson in humility
• [08:56] – The story of Gladys: believing in someone’s voice when no one else did
• [13:45] – Inspiration, physiology, and spirituality in breathing and speech
• [17:37] – Communication as connection; eye contact and presence
• [19:53] – Helping the Lubavitcher Rebbe reconnect after a stroke
• [23:42] – Why worrying about perfect speech can break connection
• [26:35] – Dr. Phil’s advice to educators/clinical supervisors
• [30:39] – The role of feeling in teaching and clinical work
• [34:53] – Dr. Phil’s journey with Parkinson’s and new understanding of shame
• [42:37] – The value and risk of openness with vulnerability
• [45:05] – Finding hope and transformation at any age
• [53:56] – Supporting parents’ fears and honoring emotional realities
• [57:14] – For young adults: sparking possibility and the “paradoxical shift from dark to light”

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Closing Wisdom

• For Parents: Recognize and make space for your own fears about your child’s challenges. Therapy is not about rushing to fix, but holding space and honoring that emotional landscape ([53:56]).
• For Individuals with Communication Challenges: Keep imagining what is possible. Let adversity refine rather than define you ([57:14], [58:16]).
• For Professionals & Teachers: Be present, lead with curiosity, connect deeply, and invite feeling into the room. Witnessing change is as important as cataloging facts ([26:35], [30:39]).

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This episode affirms that the heart of communication lies not in perfection, but in presence, connection, and the courage to reveal who you really are—voice, tremor, accent, imperfection and all.

Transcript

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Speech is a physical act, but that's not the goal. If your speech is the goal, the room could be empty and you could speak out loud. And maybe there's a tape recorder listening, but there's no connection going on. I think that's been a big part of my teaching with other people, is to be able to connect with people, not necessarily hear them in the physical sense or understand them in the intellectual or psychological sense, but you feel a connection.

[Uri Schneider]

Welcome to TranscendingX. Whether it's stuttering, public speaking, or crucial conversations, all of us have something that holds us back. What if there was a way through it? I'm Uri Schneider from Schneider Speech, where we help people talk more and fear less. And I'm the host of the TranscendingX community. Join me as we talk to high performers, researchers, and everyday heroes to discover how they transform their challenges into breakthroughs. And most of all, find ways for each of us to transcend X in our own lives.

In this episode, I sit down with my absolute favorite guest, my father, Dr. Phil Schneider. The goat. Not only do we dive into things and stories that you've probably heard or maybe you haven't, but we get behind the scenes and we listen to. What was it that made him interested in the field of speech language pathology? How did he become interested in the world of stuttering and voice? And some stories that you definitely never heard, including the journey with Michael and Gladys. Gladys was a girl who didn't have a voice. She was restricted to a wheelchair. But for some reason, he was obsessed in the belief that she had a voice and he was going to help her bring it out. And how he helped Gladys go from that wheelchair onto the stage where she performed in the school play. It's a moving conversation, it's inspiring, it's informative, and I know you'll leave feeling empowered and uplifted. I hope you enjoy the episode.

Wow. So, you know, I don't know how to begin. Sitting with the goat. Sitting with my father, the original Dr. Phil. Very excited to bring out more of your stories and share more of your goodness. So many lives you've touched. Wherever I go, there's usually, oh, oh, you have no idea what it meant to be your father's student. Or you have no idea. My brother. Just yesterday, you have no idea. My brother was having such a hard time, and my mother looked high and low, and then she found this guy nearby in the Bronx, in Riverdale. It changed his life. And it's such an honor and a privilege to be your son. And to be here and to do this and thanks for being you.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Back at you, Uri.

[Uri Schneider]

So we said maybe we'll start at the. At a sort of beginning. There are many chapters in our lives. We'll get to the current chapter, but let's start with your first. What brought you into the work with people who stutter? Because people think you must stutter. People give me that comment, I think it's the greatest compliment. But you don't stutter, I don't stutter. So what brought you into the curiosity and the commitment and the devotion that you have in working with people who stutter?

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

So it's very clear. Start point. The first day of my first job in my life, so I'm sort of an adult for the first day. Walked into a junior high school in the Bronx and had a list of cards of the children who were supposed to get speech therapy. And the first card was name of the child and the word stuttering. So I went to the classroom to meet this kid. The teacher said, stuttering, speech therapy, you. And I was extremely nervous because I just didn't know anything about this. This short kid, a racial and cultural minority, slowly walked up to the front of the room, put his finger up toward my face and said, I don't need you. Get the out of here. And he turned around and he walked back to his seat and there was a moment of silence and the whole class broke out in applause because this short fellow not only was not worried about somebody else, but in fact had tremendous courage and tremendous self esteem, I guess, to basically say what he needed and what he didn't need and he wasn't going to take any guff. And I walked out of the room and I stood outside the door thinking, oh my God, am I going to lose my first job? Is this. I'm going to deal with this much rejection. And then it hit me that I had no idea what I would have done with him if he came out of the room with me. And I had no clue. And so I wrote a note and I gave him my phone number and I said, you know, I don't know anything about this stuttering thing. It looks very interesting and if you will teach me, I will pay you. And I left my phone number. These are the days before cell phones. And I got a call in the house at night, How much? And I seem to recall I offered him a dollar an hour. He wrote back, no way. It wound up at $5 an hour, which probably was more than I was making. And I sat down with Him. And I said, well, he actually said, what do you want to know? And I said, I don't even know what I want to know. Start wherever you want. And he says, very simple. This is how I talk. I don't have a problem with it. My parents don't have a problem with it. The doctor says it won't kill me. Some people have a problem with it, they can go for help. Wow. I said, what else do you want to know? I said, I think that's enough. My first lesson. And as I'm sitting here with you now, 50 plus years after that event, I realized that he was my first teacher. And he taught me that you don't really know what a person needs or wants. And the only thing you can do is really listen and try to care and try to understand. You never get all the way there, but try to understand. And I understood from him that it was not an issue, it was not a barrier. And in fact, I watched him do many things that folks who don't have any speech issues are afraid to do and can't do. Standing up to the principal. He became the president of the student council. In fact, I followed his life into adulthood. He became a criminal defense attorney, stuttering in the courtroom. And from him, I really learned that it's not the issue of physically having interruptions in your speech. It's the issue of how you view yourself and all parts of yourself. The parts that you like, the parts you don't like. But the issue is really about being comfortable in your own skin, regardless of anything else in the world.

[Uri Schneider]

You know, being curious, not assuming you have all the answers. Very powerful, very important. I think there's another ingredient that I learned from you or that I observe and I try to pay forward, is to believe in people. Yesterday I gave this presentation, and I've been doing this recently. And often on the days that I give a talk and you know that I'm giving a talk, you'll send me this encouraging message in the morning, you'll send me a little WhatsApp. You know, I hope you enjoy sharing your gifts with the world. And I recognize not everyone has a father that would send a message like that. Not everyone has someone in their life that would send a message like that. But I sometimes share your message with the audience and I say, you know, whether or not you have someone like that in your life, you could be that somebody for someone in their life. And so whether it's your friend, your partner, your child, or the person who's your client, the believing in people when other people don't believe in them. You're believing in people even when they don't believe in themselves. And for me, the anchor, the reference is in none of the published journal articles, but it's in the story of how you helped Gladys. You want to tell that story?

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

I finished my master's degree and I got what I thought was going to be the most challenging job I could find. And I thought the other speech therapists in this institution were going to teach me a lot of things. It was a brand new school for children who were too handicapped to go to any handicapped program. Had to have three areas of handicaps. So if you were blind, that was one thing. If you were deaf, it was another. You had to have both, perhaps, and maybe add on top of that, cerebral palsy or autism. So it's quite a collection of young people. And I was handed a list of the names of the kids that I was to work with. And there was a girl that I saw in the school every day, and she was never with anybody else. And I was told she was blind. And I was also told that she'd never been heard to make a sound, a voice. She'd never been heard to cry, to laugh, to sing, to speak. And she liked music that was often. It was the time of rap music, it was the early to mid-70s, and this was Spanish Harlem. And she would like. If there was music playing, she'd be dancing in her chair or whatever. And I like music and dancing. Well, I don't know what it was, but I became fascinated. And I just, I just finished my graduate class in voice disorders and I had not a clue where to begin Thinking about how somebody could go through this world without a voice. And the principal was adamant that was not. She was not helpable. She was 12. And I should help the kids. I could help and move on and leave Gladys alone. And it, it, I couldn't let go of it. I had this unchangeable belief that there was a voice inside of Gladys and that somehow it would come out. And so I started looking for articles about things to see if I could find an article that would give me a clue. And I found a professor about a mile or two away at Columbia University who was writing articles about physiology of voice production. And I reached out to him, I said, I'm, you know, down here. I've got this kid. She has no voice. What do you mean she has no voice? She's never been heard to make a voice. In any case, he agreed to see her and he stuck a tongue depressor in the back of her mouth, and she gagged and he puffed air down her throat and she coughed. And he said, look at all the equipment. Seems to work. Why she doesn't use it to make a voice, I don't know. That's your problem. And so, against the principal's will and without his knowledge, I began meeting with Gladys and doing all kinds of silly things to try to create sounds and have fun together making sounds. And by the end of the first school year that I knew her, she began to sing. And she sang in the school show. She hadn't yet spoken, but she, she sang in the school show. And I began to cry, standing in the back of the room. And this professor said to me, what are you doing for the rest of your life? And I said, I'm doing it. And he said, well, would you like to be my student? You know, my doctoral student here at Columbia? And that sounds pretty interesting. I said, but I'm supporting my wife and myself. I need a job. He said, well, if we can deal with that, would you do it? I said, well, I have another request. I want to really become a clinician, not a bench scientist. In any case, Gladys sent me back to school for five years. Gladys sent me on a career of teaching and of being an academe and, and doing research as well. And I may have contributed to her life in some way, but she certainly changed the course of mine

[Uri Schneider]

for all the lives the Michaels, the Gladys's, and so many countless more. What stand out as ways that your life was enriched in addition to your doctorate, in addition to different relationship with professors and great people? What are the different ways that the Michaels, the Gladys, and the countless others specifically dealing with communication challenges have taught you, Enriched you?

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

I never had a roadmap of where I was headed. I mean, I knew that I, I, I heard one talk about speech therapy and I went like, that's for me. But I never mapped out what that was going to be like and where I was going to work and the various things that were going to occur. So I think that that story of the Gladys is really the, the kingpin for me and turned me into a researcher, which I was not. Got me interested, actually. When you start to study breathing and voice production in human beings, it takes you to spiritual places.

[Uri Schneider]

Why is that?

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Well, you start to realize that we, we have some differences from other creatures and even the fact that we're upright is related to our ability to speak. And you start to realize that when a Child typically begins speaking when they become upright, not before that. And they start to look at the differences between breathing when you're not speaking and breathing when you are. And you realize there are only two, two ways to do it and that that occurs, it unfolds, it's, it's pre planned. I'll give you one other example. I was studying breathing and babies and adults. And the word for air coming into your body is inspiration. And there are two ways we think of that word. One is to feel impassioned, energized, with a sense of purpose. And the other is to air to flow into you, which gives you the oxygen to be alive. And that first inhalation requires no muscles. The lungs pop open and the air is sucked in, or blown in if you will, from an outside source, the pressure outside coming in. And that gives you the power to express yourself in this world. So it's your source of inspiration and literally your oxygen for being alive. So those thoughts, when I started to look at the physiology of how we designed and how it works and to realize how amazing that is, it makes you think about the, the engineering team that's really running the show.

[Uri Schneider]

I think the other thing is the inspiration takes work. If you just let go and do nothing. Expiration, you expire. But inhale, it goes against gravity. I think you said that in anatomy and physiology in undergrad, had the privilege to be your student. You just shared some of the scientific concepts and ideas and things you paid attention to in your studies and your teaching and your clinical work. What are other remarkable things about speech and voice and communication that you think not just your students in anatomy and physiology should know, but that you would wish more people would get to hear some of the amazing things about the science and the magic of speech, voice of communication. There's so much.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Well, one thought that hit me when you were saying that was that you were strapped to my chest a fair amount of the time during the doctoral studies and witnessing the birth of your, of a child, of a new human being. I think most people, regardless of your cultural background or your lifestyle, are profoundly aware that something just occurred that's beyond anybody, any human being to do. A new, a new being, a new soul, a new body has come into the world and it's got an internal design to unfold. And so seeing your birth and being with you and nurturing you and loving you and holding you and comforting you and, you know, just your presence was physically with me intensively during those times. And I think that changes you. You start to Think about larger kinds of things in the world.

[Uri Schneider]

I think about how you talk about the root of communication that so much of the field and. And the world, you know, even public speaking or a speech coach, it's like just working with an individual in isolation. And something that I think of as something that's like one of your rally calls is to put communication back. You know, frame everything around communication. You want to share your insight about the root of the word communication.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

To communion means to come together, to connect. Speech is a physical act, but that's not the goal. If your speech is the goal, the room could be empty and you could speak out loud. And maybe there's a tape recorder listening, but there's no connection going on. And you were. I think the first part of my noticing this intensely was that the first part of connecting with another being is eye contact, Maybe eye contact, when you have to get a sense of what's in your mind. But physically visually connecting eyeball to eyeball. And you were in one of these things, I think he called it a snuggly. And you were up on my chest, tight, and we'd look at each other eye to eye. And I think that's been a big part of my teaching with other people, is to be able to connect with people with your eyes, to make sure if you're going to stand up on a stage, that you look at other people. And when you need that moment for it to stop, you wait. But if you're speaking to a paper as a public speaker, standing up with your notes and you're reading the paper, the audience gets that. You're not connecting with them, you're connecting with paper. So seeing public speaking or interpersonal speaking as being sure to start with your eyes and maintaining that connection, you feel things, not necessarily hear them in the physical sense or understand them in the intellectual or psychological sense, but you feel a connection. And I had a powerful experience meeting a famous world leader after he'd had a severe stroke and couldn't speak at all.

[Uri Schneider]

I was actually sitting right where you're sitting on Modi's podcast, and I told the story, and I. I was hoping you would go there. So you're talking about the Lubavitcher Rebbe?

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Yes, and the people who are his cohorts in leading the that movement were seeking someone to fix him, that he should become the man that he was for 90, 91 years.

[Uri Schneider]

And you were seeing him after what had happened.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

He'd had a profound bilateral stroke, and there were apparently no volitional Movements even with his. He could track a little bit with his eyes, but he couldn't close and open. So he had a little bit of eye tracking. And when I came into his presence, we locked eyes and I had this sense that I had to be rigorously honest with every word and had all. So it became very soul searching for me. And he just, his eyes were like laser beams. I. It was a profound experience and I just felt like we connected. And of course then the challenge was could I do any more?

[Uri Schneider]

Could I do.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Could I help something or could I be a part of a. Some kind of recovery? And what, what evolved from that was I redefined my job was it was to help this community, his, his, his community communicate with him and him to communicate with his people. And he had been isolated from everybody. And so I started getting people to listen through, looking through to his eyes and holding on to his eyes and asking questions which could be answered yes or no in different languages. So I did one language, someone else did another language, someone else did another language. We found that if we really locked eyes, they said, me, what should I watch for? To figure out what his answer is? I said, I don't know, but just keep your eyes there, keep your mind and your heart open. And it turned out we all, in the three different languages, three different people, we got all same answers.

[Uri Schneider]

Wow.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

I don't know what to make of that, but it had an impact on me to make sure to encourage people to make this kind of connection. And as it relates to the issue of stuttering or other speech issues like NR sound and S a particular sound that's not so clear. There are great, great communicators, meaning connectors who have all kinds of different speaking styles. And it's not the issue. And in fact, it could be endearing. Everyone has their own personal stamp, their own, their own fingerprint. And the issue is communicate. So I worked with a man who is very kind of famous, one of the top broadcasters in the country and in the broadcast industry. It was like the one who was the best got the most money because their station got the biggest commercials. And so he said he was competing for number one. He was like the number two guy in America as a broadcaster. And he has this one problem that's plagued him all his life. And he was in his mid-50s, I think, as I recall, the R sound. And I knew he didn't have an R, he had a different kind of R sound. And he'd been to therapists his whole life. And I, and I said, why Are you here now? Do you really think your R sound is the difference between being the number two guy and the number one guy? I said, I'll tell you something, if you spend your energy focusing on your R, your ratings are going to go down because you are successful, because you're a communicator, which means I want to communicate with you. But if I'm doing that and I'm thinking about how am I coming across, how am I looking, I'm no longer really connecting with you. I'm connecting, I'm connecting with my own self. So I discouraged him from pursuing that and he became number one with his particular R, which was his R. I

[Uri Schneider]

think that coming into play, often when I work with people, they're fixated on some specific speech dynamic or parameter. They're putting 80% of their attention on managing it, on concealing it, on fixing it, which only leaves 20% for anything else. And that thing, as important or unimportant as it is, if it comes at the expense of being present and showing up for who they really are. So being connected to themselves instead of being checked out. And if it gets in between the purpose of talking and communicating, connecting with the audience, whether it's one person or whether it's a room of 8,000 people. And if we're caught up in our own heads about our own stuff we're not connecting with, what are they here for? What, what vibe do we want to tap into? What message do we want to transmit? What kind of feeling do we want to give them? It is remarkable. I shared with you last night a clip of this fellow I worked with, AI engineer, reached out to me two weeks before going on the stage for like a TED talk 20 minute piece. And he was convinced that his stutter and his non native English accent was going to be the end of him. Two weeks later he rocked the stage. And when we had a conversation afterwards and we talked about how it was, he says, well, the most remarkable thing is before we met, I was so obsessed, I was so fixated on these things. And I thought until I nail those, there's no way I'm going to be able to do, do this. And two weeks later, after he gave the talk, which was amazing, he said, those things aren't even on my mind anymore. I'm much more focused on my message. I'm much more focused on what are they hearing, how is it landing, how am I connecting. And it's amazing. And I think it's such a, such a different way than a lot, a lot of our colleagues. Think about it. So if you were. If you were teaching, which you did for how many years?

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Oh, about 30.

[Uri Schneider]

About 30, you would have office hours. And I remember when I was your student in undergrad, some in grad, Some people would think that would be awkward, you know, nepotism and so on. And I said, well, it would be if it was someone else's dad. But for you, the door was open to every student as much as was open to me. And your office hours would have people, you know, lining around the halls and lining around the building, coming to talk about all sorts of things way beyond anatomy and physiology. And that was amazing. But as I talk to instructors now, the new academic instructors and clinical instructors, what would be some wisdom, what would be some tips that you might offer for instructors of the next generation of speech language pathologists to do. To do the work in the way that changes people's lives?

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Thanks for that opportunity. I didn't know that was going to come up, but I think that's a real, really important opportunity to share some thoughts. People get paid to, quote, be teachers in standard academic settings. First thing a person does is to try to find a textbook. There's a culture in colleges, in any profession, there are cultures, and this is the way the culture goes. There's a textbook, you assign a textbook, the students have to buy the book, you assign chapters, and then who knows what goes on in the classroom. Typically, the teacher then talks about the stuff in the textbook and the textbook is created. Some kind of a starts, often with, let's say one in stuttering might start with incidents. You know, how much does. How many people in the world have this condition? What are some theories that people have of why they have this condition? What are. How can we break down a couple of approaches People have to treatment? And the teacher then follows this book. It's often the case that the person doing that in the role of, quote, teacher has not had much experience working with people with these issues.

[Uri Schneider]

This is the moment that the goat of voice therapy is going to practice what he preaches. Take a pause, take a sip, reset the voice.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Thank you. And so when students get their A in the course because they can say back the questions asked, what basically was in the textbook and was mentioned in the lecture, and if you can say it back and remember those things, you get an A. Then you finish and you get your master's degree and you go out and you meet a person with a problem and you realize you haven't learned anything about what that role is in life and how to conduct yourself in a way that would be helpful to another human being. So one of the things that happened to me or how, or I, I did was I always made sure that every, every class involved me interacting in a clinical way with somebody who had that problem so that the real interaction could be. And that experience, which is not, you can't just nail it into an outline, became something they got to witness and observe and feel. And following those people week to week during the class session. Part of every class session hopefully involved me trying to help somebody deal with this kind of an issue. And so they at least went away with some image of what that journey would be like.

[Uri Schneider]

I think we're feeling beings that Dr. Phil never thought of that. But yeah, your Israeli friends always have trouble with the fill that, that vowel. So they always say Dr. Feel, how do you feel?

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Feel?

[Uri Schneider]

So Dr. Feel is all about the feels. And when I, in a recent presentation with a large group of speech language pathologists, I showed him a clip from Transcending Stuttering from the documentary that you made. It wasn't a dry eye in the room. And I suggested to them, invited them to consider that in their work, in our, in our work, in the encounters and the sacred encounters they have with the people they work with, there should be feelings. It shouldn't just be a transmission of tips of where to put your tongue and how to breathe and how to do this and how to do that. But there should be a feeling, There should be an experience both on the receiving end for the person who's the client, but there's also a reverb for the person who's the therapist, who's the professional, who's the guide. So the idea of feelings, Dr. Phil, I think, is so important. When you talk about demonstrating that clinical work. What's one, one example or one experience that stands out of something that played out in one of your, in one of your lectures or one of your classes?

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

So let's take the area of voice for a moment. Person may begin coming to you when they're finding they're either very hoarse, they're dysphonic, their voice is disturbed, weakened, limited, stressful, or in fact no voice. And they may come with a photograph that laryngologists took of the status of their vocal folds which may show an injury. And let's say over the course of 15 week academic semester, the students get to witness that person change by doing some simple tasks and being encouraged to do a few little hygienic kinds of things, whether it's sipping water or avoiding too much coffee or whatever that little advice is. If you get to witness that as a student, you just don't have. You don't simply have the information about labels. Oh, that's a this, and this is a that. But you recognize you are awed by witnessing change. Okay, so one case that fits in. There is a woman came who had almost become completely voiceless. And she was a classroom teacher. And her real dream in life was to be a singer, a professional singer. And she could sing. I. I never heard her sing. I met her when her voice was barely audible. And over the course of the 15 weeks, she recovered her voice, her vocal folds healed, and she went back. And in fact, over the next year or so, got back into her career as a singer and gave up the teaching. So the students who were witness to that, as I was witness to it, it changes you, because then you recognize that it doesn't mean everybody else is going to have the same story, but you recognize there's a potential you also get. I would bring parents of children into the classroom to talk to me about their experience, and the students would get to see this and take the time to cry with the mother. Because when someone cries in your presence, you don't necessarily know their story, but you feel their cry. And you cry too often. So I think that people. And I cry easily. Often when I tell these stories, I tear up. And I think the students find out. Find out that the professor. Professor isn't just a book that's moving. It's starting to feel, but it has feelings and care. And care. And you can see the caringness. As I work with a person, they become part of my circle that I care about, and that gets experienced by the students. So I think that people going to become college professors and lecturing about working with people who don't have a chance or create the opportunity for themselves to actually do the thing. It'd be like teaching dance, but you've never danced, and the students have never seen dance, but they're learning. Okay, left foot, right foot, they're reading a script. Move the left over here, move the right over there. They don't get the passion, they don't have the feelings, and they miss the whole. They have all the numbers, but they miss the hope, the whole joy and story.

[Uri Schneider]

The process that you talked about, unfolding the idea of transformation of someone who thought that their dream of singing would be forever just a dream, just another unfulfilled dream. And seeing someone go from being so hoarse they had no voice. They couldn't teach. Not only being able to do that job, but being able to pursue their dream. Those transformational experiences, when you witness them, when you're part of them. Well, when you witness them, it's inspiring and it gives hope and encouragement. But when you're present, and like you said, when you're mirroring. They're crying, you're crying, and their breath. You're mirroring their breath, there's a transfer there. And I think one of the things we wanted to talk about was as you started to realize that you had Parkinson's, I remember you said to me, now I understand stuttering.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Yeah.

[Uri Schneider]

And I thought. I thought you knew a lot before. I thought you understood pretty well. What would you say about that layer of.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

I think the. The theme here, which became extremely vivid to me very quickly, was shame. And I had thought in the stories that I'd read about stuttering, you know, that's. The early textbooks suggested that there was a sequence of events emotionally in a person's life that you learned from the way the world saw you as different. To feel ashamed. Somebody mocked you, somebody turned away from you, somebody told you, speak differently. And that led to this shame, which is such a painful, life crippling kind of experience. And then I developed this twitch in my hand. I didn't. I immediately didn't want anyone to see it. And it became a focus of my. Of my inner attention. If I was sitting down with you and you were someone I was meeting for the first time, either as a student or a client or a colleague or a friend or just socially, my mind was like, what am I going to do with my hand? And I found myself walking outdoors with my hand in my pocket, twitching against my leg and not wanting to be seen, and going to a synagogue where people hold a book. The book was shaking and rattling, and I couldn't turn the pages. And I realized this sense of being diminished by being out of control of your body in front of other people and even without other people was intrinsically shaming. It didn't require any other people. So for a year or two, I tried to hide it. And a lot of energy went into that, and a lot of pulling back from different things went into that. But it was. It was always a focal. It became a focal point for me all the time. And so over the. It's 10 years or so about now that I'm dealing with this, and I often now find that the most comfortable thing for me to do is to bring it up. So everybody. So, like I don't have to wonder what you're wondering.

[Uri Schneider]

And

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

that's made things much. That's been a good coping strategy for much as opposed to I don't want anybody to know. And in fact, it's gone to the other level. It's gone beyond that, which to realize, you know, I can help other people by talking about my situation and hearing their story. So I wound up spending time working, helping and supporting other people who are dealing with this particular kind of challenge. And also the word disease and disorder compared to the word challenge. Challenge can be an invitation, as Dan was saying, to growth, to building muscle. And it can lead to intimacy, to being really open with people, which creates an opportunity to really. If you're saying what you're really dealing with and what you would naturally want to hide, then the other person feels open. Safer to open up and share with their own uncertain. Uncertainties and challenges are. So that's another level, you know, you can never really be in another person's shoes. But it makes me think about how distracting it could be to have an involuntary motor intermittent and involuntary. The intermittent is important because let's say I'm not tremoring. And I say to somebody, by the way, I have Parkinson's.

[Uri Schneider]

Well, you look fine.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

That's the first natural response. And a person perhaps who stutters may say, I do. I have trouble because I stutter.

[Uri Schneider]

You're a stutter.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

And that's such a difficult moment. And it happens even in my marital. Marital relationship where. Where my. Where your mom and my wife will say, you know, you're doing. You're doing fine. Which means I guess I wasn't doing fine. The, you know, it doesn't comfort. And I feel we haven't really gotten there yet. And I'll have to say, well, what you need to know is this is something that has its own arc. I hit a rough stage right before, while Dan was talking and I was going like, you know, how bad is my shaking going to be when we sit down to talk? And then it, whatever reason, it's calmer now. In another moment it can start. And then also people think of it as direct correlative your emotional state. And does your emotional state can have an impact or not? It's not one on one. And stuttering is like that as well. Sometimes there are people when they really feel they're. They need to really speak up and do a great job. Somehow the nervous system just gets it together. There are other people in the reverse.

[Uri Schneider]

I think on the one hand people that know you or people that are listening now think of you as a very kind, emotional, tender, but also very strong person, very confident person. I think that's what people would think. As you went through dealing with this tremor, I remember a time, it was right before we went to Chicago together for a conference, and you sat down with Ema, and you kind of sat me down for one of those big conversations in the living room.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

I think I was still in the hiding mode at that point.

[Uri Schneider]

Oh, yes. This was your coming out moment where you wanted to reveal to me that you were going through something that I had been observing for two years. And you said, you know, Ema and I just want to tell you everything's okay, but we are dealing with a lot of appointments to figure out what's going on. And the tests just came back, and we've been sitting on it, and we've decided it's important to share with you that you should know that I have Parkinson's. And I tried to. I actually had this, like, second layer of what do. What do you need to hear? What does Ema need to hear? What do you need to feel from me? But the other voice was like, yeah. Huh. Not a secret, Was pretty clear, was pretty evident. And I'm. I'm so glad you're bringing it out into the open. So I thought maybe you could share like that with all your knowledge, all your training, both training, but also you trained others. You'd been through this process with so many people in a similar way of the hiding and the shame and then the value of kind of opening up and then living through it. Can you just kind of put a finger on what are those things that drive people to stay in a circle of shame and hiding and paying the price, the invisible price. The invisible cost of you putting your hand in your pocket, walking in places where you knew you might lose your balance, but if your hand was in your pocket, you wouldn't be able to brace yourself. But to have your hand out was. Was too embarrassing, was too frightening. So you paid the price of putting your hand in your pocket and hiding the tremor, but losing the safety of being able to brace yourself or paying the price of not getting together with someone because you weren't sure if they would notice the tremor. Like, even though you're paying the price, there was something motivating you to hide. Can you talk about the motivation to hide and to preserve secrets of this nature? And then what it takes to kind of get to the other side, where you get to a point and what's the Upside of sharing.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

I think that this is a thought. So intellectually, I think that we know that we're all connected as human beings and we all have similarities. We're all connected in some kind of root core way. I think. I think at the same time, we know that we're also each unique. And very often some of the things that we go through feel like completely us. And when you start opening up a little bit, you realize everybody's got something that they're dealing with, and you realize that we're all, again, connected at another level of vulnerability, and it doesn't matter what the issue is. And so when you open up about these things, it becomes very humanizing and things can get richer in the quality of your connections. You realize there are things you can't or might not want to do that you used to do, and then perhaps new things open up that you never thought of. And it's almost laughable that I discovered that there was a physical trainer whose passion in life was helping people in mature stages of life who had Parkinson's, and he's living and has his gym less than a city block away from where I live.

[Uri Schneider]

I like to say people think of you and they associate it with the voice box. They don't always think of boxing with a punching bag.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

And I would never. I never in my life spent time in a gym. I always. I never even thought it would be an interesting thing to do. And I actually look forward every morning to waking up and spending that first hour of the day with this wonderful human being who I never would have met. And in many ways, I'm in better physical condition now than I've been in my life.

[Uri Schneider]

What age were you when you first stepped in the ring? I mean, into the gym?

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

68, 67.

[Uri Schneider]

One of the other things you often would say is that people will call you and say, I don't know. You know, My son is 9. My son is 19. I am 45. I am 72. Do you think it's too late? Do you think we missed the boat? Do you think the ship has sailed? Do you think we need to just give up and resign to it is what it is? What would you say? What's your response to the person who's saying that.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

So long as there's life and there's breath, there's possibility?

[Uri Schneider]

What have you seen? Thank God, in your personal journey and your personal experience with the ways that you've responded to this challenge, your Parkinson's,

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

one of the greatest joys, and it comes out in this Kind of a. When you're working with somebody, a high level professional like this, recognizing the difference between the two sides of my body and watching them become even from the, from the work. Being able to move with precision and speed when you could do nothing when you start. So in these various tasks I showed you, I think today or yesterday, this funny little ball on an elastic and punching it.

[Uri Schneider]

And, well, just for a visual, it was a headband. It was a full circular headband. And on it was an elastic string with a ball at the end. And you were putting your head facing down, so the ball is dangling down around your belt. Your head is down and you're, you're doing like a speed bag with it, you know, and every time you punch it, it's moving in unpredictable directions and

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

you're smacking you back in the face if you don't get out of the way.

[Uri Schneider]

And you're going at it, right, left. And you do the speed bag with your eyes closed. You send me those videos. You have a fear of heights. I remember when we went rappelling when I was about 19, and you were all saddled up, had everything on, and the instructor said, okay, now's the easy part. Just lean back, nothing could go wrong. And you said, I'm out of here. And I said, that's okay. You could pass today, maybe one day. And then it was in the past two or three years, you sent that video of you all harnessed up, climbing, rock climbing a wall because you heard rock climbing could be a good thing. So doing things outside your comfort zone. And Parkinson's is the degenerative disease. And so talk about it.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Let's just talk about labels. So imagine you think you're. Why is your hand tremoring? What should I do about it? Eventually, you seek out a physician. They watch you tremble. They go like, oh, you have a degenerative neuromuscular disease. Here's a pad with a script. Go. And sometimes we. Our model in our profession is similar with people who stutter. We're going to do an evaluation. Oh, this is how you stutter. I see you close your eyes. I see you grunt your voice. I see you swing your arm. I see you do this. I see you do that. How long you been doing? Oh, you got a really bad case. We diagnose, we label it. We then talk about how bad it is, and then we make some kind of a prescription. Not a great model for really what we do in this world. You're meeting an incredible a being with incredible infinite potential. And you never Know, and you have been in this work long enough for yourself to watch people catapulted by the very thing they thought was going to bury them. That is not rare. It's often the case that something which is a challenge, Bill's determinations, wisdom, spirituality, strength, skill, mission, and those are the things that make you feel good about your life.

[Uri Schneider]

Yeah. It can potentially break a person. And for some people it is crushing to have whatever challenge they have and the opportunity is there that it, instead of it breaking it can make. Doesn't break you, it makes you.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

I, I, my mind shifted, but back to a thought that I want to share, which is the issue in, in our industry, speech therapy, as it relates to people who stutter. It goes through different chapters, industries, and there were camps. Just be happy as you are. Get out there. Be a bold person who stutters. Be proud of it or fix it. Learn to control it, minimize it, make that a goal, work on it. How do you know what to do with whom? And I told the story of that young boy who came up and said, I don't need your help. Very easy case. He knew what he needed and what he didn't need. And so I wouldn't have been able to know that he knew it. The reverse is meeting a man who came to me in his early 60s, who looked like he had normal speech, in fact was hiding the fact that he started by constantly changing what he was saying and avoiding many different kinds of speaking situations. But I asked them, what would you like? Why are you here? Why are you spending a precious time in your life and some precious money to consult with somebody about this? And then he opened up and talked about his pain and his shame and his hiding and, and what it was costing him in his life by the time. And I just kept wanting to know more about it. And as he kept telling me more and more detail about what he had been doing in order to hide this, he became clearer and clearer about what he wanted to do about it. And the flip over between that I'm not going to do, I'm not going to do, I can't, I won't, and I can do anything was like flipping a switch. I said, so what would you really like to be doing? He said, well, I'd like to be teaching. And I said, well, how about you teach my class like next week at CL at Queens College? And he said, yeah. And he was, he was profound. And the students had one of the most profound experiences of their whole graduate student career. So how do you know what a person needs and wants, you have to ask them and you have to listen and you have to want to know more and want to know more and want to know more. And as they try to help you understand what they want and what they need, I get to know it, but they get to hear it. When you tell someone else, you hear yourself, and the more I want to know, the more you get to explore, the more you get to know. And that's the therapeutic process.

[Uri Schneider]

I'm a better person. I'm alive, you know, thanks to you and to Ima learn so much from both of you. The work that I'm able to do and seeing how it transcends the traditional boundaries of speech therapy is really the most influential piece, is you and seeing what you just said, you know, seeing that there's this universal experience that we get fixated and held back by seeing the things that we think other people won't tolerate and they become things that we don't tolerate of ourselves. And what ends up happening is the things we really want start to get dampened and turn into dusty dreams. And your work is a living example of helping people dust off the dreams, bring it into focus through poignant questions and curiosity and integrity and intimacy and meeting people where they're at and seeing what they really want. And one of the questions I often ask that I think I got from you. So this thing, stutter, voice, fear, shame, whatever that thing is that a person feels held back, you might ask them, if that thing wasn't so present, what would you be doing more of? Well, I wouldn't be doing that thing or I wouldn't have that thing.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Yeah.

[Uri Schneider]

And then what would you start doing more of? Like you just said about this example. And so I've seen, most importantly, I've seen that for the people we work with in traditional speech therapy, I've seen that for the people that I work with in all different industries. But most of all, I've seen it for myself. So I just want to thank you for that lesson and for that influence and for that example and also your living example. What I was going to say earlier that while some think of Parkinson's as a degenerative disease, the other thing that you've always said is change is non linear. It doesn't follow the trajectory of a straight line. Not in this direction, not in that direction. And seeing what you've been able to do in the way that you've responded to the challenge of Parkinson's with sleep, diet, exercise, meds, consultations with different professionals and Just working with yourself and with others and with Ima to see that at many moments, you're dealing with less impactful symptoms at some moments than you were a long time ago kind of really defies and is an incredible resilience and defiance in the face of a disease that could take away so much from a person's life. And so I just again, want to give a tribute and thank you and give you a chance for some parting wisdom, let's say whatever wisdom you want to share with parents, with individuals, collectively or separately.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

I'll just take a moment to talk about parenting and meeting parents and being a source of support for parents. When parents come to us because they have a child who stutters, they're very frightened. They're frightened of the dream of a child that will be fulfilled and happy, have good relationships, make a contribution in this world, have a meaningful life, a joyous life, a peaceful life. All these things, they become centered on the fact that their difficulty speaking or their way of speaking. It may not be difficult, but it looks difficult, but their way of speaking with interruptions that are involuntary and intermittent will destroy that dream. And that is a horrifying experience for a parent. And I think we need to make sure that we. We think we were aware of that when we meet that parent for the first time, that we allow them, we make it safe for them to really talk about what their fears are. And that often winds up with tears and not to be too quick to push tissues, which suggests that we should mop up the mess, keep the tissues in there, but don't push them over. And I also, if I wind up crying, that's okay. I don't have to cry. But sometimes the pain resonates. But our ability to listen to parents talking about their fear, about what's going to happen to their kids, I think can become a very important part of the journey. And it's scary for us, too, as therapists, because unconsciously or consciously, we feel we're supposed to be able to fix things, to fix people, and when the journey isn't going in that direction, that the trait is going away or it's becoming easier, I think there's a lot of pressure that many of us, that it's normal for us, myself included, even after many years of doing this, to feel, maybe we blew it, you know, maybe we didn't earn our keep, maybe somebody else could do better, and you never. And maybe that's true. So we have a struggle, too, when we get involved with the work. We take a risk that we may feel humbled, but being present for parents, without allowing them to talk about their fear about this, without saying, well, we'll fix it or we'll do this or we'll do that and say it is scary. Parenting is scary because it'll always feel like it's your fault, that this should have been something you could have done better. That's a very delicate part of our work honoring the parents fear and concern.

[Uri Schneider]

That's the piece for parents. Did you want to give another part? For young adults living with some communication challenge that they feel is holding them back. They feel they could be more of who they know they can be, but they feel so stopped and blocked by this.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

I think our imagination about what's possible needs to be stimulated in the process. In the therapy relationship. In my own life, I saw a YouTube. I don't know how I came to see this clip, but it was some man who was suffering with his Parkinson's, depressed, debilitated. And something, something he saw inspired him to think maybe he could become an athlete. And he went on in, in his, I think, 40s, to become a nationally known successful athlete, trembling until the gun went off to get moving. But the challenge motivated him to go beyond normal. And that kind of paradoxical shift from the dark to the light is not an isolated event. And somehow we have to keep those sparks of possibility of things going from the dark to the light as a whoop we have to make. We have to energize that.

[Uri Schneider]

I heard one of a podcast guests said it didn't define me, it refined me.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Wow.

[Uri Schneider]

Beautiful. So thank you for this conversation. It's been such a privilege.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Thanks.

[Uri Schneider]

And we should have many more. And we should continue your legacy at Schneider's speech to bring your way and your touch and your humanity to help people find their voice and live meaningful lives of connection and purpose. Thank you.

[Dr. Phil Schneider]

Thank you, Uri.

[Uri Schneider]

Thanks for listening to TranscendingX. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who could benefit from it. If you want free tips to help you talk more and fear less, sign [e-mail] email until next time, Remember tomorrow's breakthroughs, start with what we do today.

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