B (4:45)

Dusty, that's really well said. And for me, emotional dysregulation and nicotine use go hand in hand. I have quit smoking for long periods of time, more than once in my life and currently don't smoke. But I do vape. And every time I have completely quit nicotine, the time that I have bought a pack of cigarettes is when I was dysregulated enough that I just back to that language that I just needed something. And there I was right back, hooked back in after a year, two years, three years, five years of non nicotine use, picking it back up. And then like and with nicotine in particular, once you pick it back up, it's really easy to go from zero right back to habitual use and it's really hard to kick. So I think what you said about emotional dysregulation is really pertinent here. From the flip side, when we talk about behavior change, what can be really challenging? There is again all or nothing thinking. And this is where for myself and my clients, I encourage you to put yourself in the picture. So for me, if I were to design my life or start to work on designing my life around being as carcinogen free as possible and or to live as many years as possible, that would not be an enjoyable life for me. I enjoy substances in moderation. I enjoy a number of substances in moderation. I like rich foods, I like to be in smoky environment. Well, I don't like to be in smoky environments, but so often the things that I enjoy doing put me in smoky environments. And so there's a balance to be struck here between the best case scenario and, and what fits with your life, what is either harm reduction or getting closer to what is a better fit for you look like rather than what does doing this perfectly look like? Because from my perspective, this all ends the same way for all of us, right? None of us gets out of this alive. And so while I want to be healthy in my body as a 40 year old for as long as possible and I don't want my body to be a limiter. And in fact that's a huge source of motivation for me in any health related threads that I'm pulling on is keeping my body strong enough and limber enough and healthy enough to the degree that I can control, that my body itself, my ability to do things like walk or hike long distances or endure long days in the city or out doing tourism or out at a festival or whatever, that's what motivates me, right? Is keeping my body healthy enough and paying attention to how I feel in my body in the moment, but staying alive as long as I possibly can. Not such a great source of motivation and also would be a miserable life for me. I wouldn't enjoy that life. So. So what's the point of eking out another five, 10 years if I'm not enjoying the life I'm living?

A (7:50)

Yeah, so I, I think what's interesting and fascinating to me about this is like, you know, modulating or moderating a behavior or usage of something is already such a big step down from like going cold turkey, going all or nothing that I think it's hard to get people with ADHD, like ADHD's buy in that it's like a good way to go in the first place. But beyond that, it's like honestly so hard to just get to the point where you are modulating that. Like my experience is that the process of behavioral change in this area, especially with anything sort of like addicting, it's so slow. And I think that's like really hard for people. And I have, you know, some clients right now who are dealing with various kinds of addictions that they're trying to mitigate. Not like serious addictions where they should be under the care of a doctor, but more like, you know, they recognize that it's having a negative impact on their lifestyle, right? And just getting to the point where they're ready to modulate their usage or that behavior is in and of itself a big job. Because we are really talking about a whole lifestyle shift, right? So let's you, let's use the example of like alcohol. I think it's interesting because I see all these apps now like on Instagram and different places where it's like, oh, like plan your drinking, like plan out your drinking with like this app, which like, I think that's a great first step in theory. Like, it's a good idea to set an intention because I bet you a lot of people never have, right? They go like, oh, I should drink less. And then they like go. And they drink their face off and they go, I drink too much. Right. What a novel concept. Decide in advance how many drinks you want to have. That's a great first step. The problem is when we get in that environment with each drink, we're. We're subsequently like losing our sort of like self control and our like, you know, what you might call willpower or executive function. And we're increasing that impulse, you know, like that lack of impulse control. We might be increasing like emotionality or excitement, excitability. And we're certainly like decreasing our self monitoring. So it's very, it's all well and good for me to say, oh, I'm gonna have three drinks tonight. By that third drink, like is that person who's had that third drink capable of stopping themselves? Right. If we're talking about me going and buying three tall cans of beer or something at the liquor store and bringing it home, okay, great, I've only got three cans. But in a bar environment or in a party or you know, when you've got a whole bottle of wine or something, I just think like that's not enough. And it can be really frustrating for people because they see themselves fail and they're like, oh, right, so there's something more that has to happen there around like increasing your ability to connect back to your goals. When you're on that third drink, if you don't want to have a fourth, or stopping after that, you know, first cigarette or that first YouTube video, right? And being like, okay, I promised myself I was going to go to bed at 11, now it's 11:10. But I feel like I'm not done watching YouTube. You know, whatever the thing is that you're trying to change when you arrive in that moment, I don't think we're planning for that version of ourselves. We're like planning for some hypothetical version of ourselves who like has a goodly amount of self discipline and that's. It's never been the case for me. I don't know about you, Ash.

B (10:51)

Well, even something like self discipline I don't like to think of as an all or nothing thing. So. So in the way that you're expressing it, no, it has never been a thing for me either. But this is where finding the positive motivation to connect to can be really helpful. So Dusty, you're talking about how long it can sometimes take to even get to the stage of modulation. Another way to talk about that in coaching language is building awareness. Right? So I was noticing in the last few months because so much of what I do socially takes place in drinking environments. What do I do? I attend a lot of queer events which unfortunately, since third spaces aren't really a thing, particularly in the US anymore, are typically pretty bar queer, bar centric. And I attend a lot of live music, both drinking environments and funnily enough, the first thing that I noticed was my spending because I can be perfectly happy not drinking at all when I go see fish, because those are at big venues. I don't drink because I am just not willing to pay $15 for a tall boy of crappy beer or $25 or whatever for a mixed drink. It is just so outrageously expensive that I don't drink at all. But because my social activity has gone up, I noticed that my spending on alcohol had gone up more than I would like. Now, did I do anything about it in that moment? No, I didn't. Because there was a second piece of awareness that was completely unrelated to the first. And that is I read an article on ADHD and alcohol consumption that talked about memory. And here's the thing is alcohol consumption can inhibit the ability to convert short term memory to long term memory. So this is being blackout drunk. This is being drunk enough for most people that you don't remember the next day. But what this article was stating is that with people with adhd, that alcohol consumption threshold is actually quite a bit lower. And that added up to my own lived experiences. So queer bars are notorious for pouring really stiff, really strong drinks. And while I wasn't getting hammered when I was out at night, I would notice that there were gaps in my memory. I had a really interesting conversation with a friend and I wish I could recall more of the pieces or I'm working on this history project and so somebody dropped some lore that I would. I wish I could remember the fine detail enough to capture so that I don't have to go back and have that conversation again. So when I read this article that became the motivation to start experimenting. And what I did because queer bars are so notorious for for pouring really strong drinks is I switched to bottled beer. So I haven't really otherwise changed how many drinks I have, but I have changed how much alcohol I have and how quote unquote tipsy or drunk I get. And I have noticed since I have done that that I have much better recollection of the evening before. Like much better. And on top of that, I am much more likely to stop between drinks and have a water because. Not because I'm so concerned about my alcohol consumption from an inebriation level, but because I really do enjoy being able to wake up the next day and fully remember the good night that I had before. And bringing bringing back the moderation piece. A side effect that I've noticed is I don't feel as crappy the next day if I feel crappy at all when I've had a few beers versus when I've had a few cocktails. So at least for me, there does seem to be a pretty significant difference between those two types of drinks in terms of the effects that I'm going to feel into the night and onto the next day. But were those effects why I made a change in my drinking? No. Were the finances why I made a change in drinking? Kind of. That was in the mix. And this change does also benefit that goal. But the real reason was the memory thing. And so that coming into my awareness was the positive motivation needed to make change. So if you're kind of stuck in the phase where you're just cultivating awareness, that's okay because, again, that's hard. With adhd, it's hard to connect today to tomorrow to the next day. So if you're just noticing and making note of how something feels, what is the impact on you? What are you noticing? What information out there feels useful or relevant to you? Then over time, you will start to find your own reasons for making a change.

A (15:37)

Yeah, I think if there's one message I would like to relay to people struggling with this, having worked with a lot of clients on it in coaching and also having, you know, worked on it with myself, I think the thing I've realized is that, like, we feel like moderation or modulation should be so easy because it's such a big step down from cold turkey, right? Oh, I'll just, like, I'll just do it a little. Right. And in some ways it's maybe almost, like, harder. Certainly. I think, like, cold turkey is harder to sustain. This is harder to, like, talk yourself into doing because there's such a penchant, if you will, for talking yourself out of things. We're like, I've already had one. Might as well keep going, right? Like, it's so easy to let ourselves off the hook. And so I think the thing that I've really learned is that you want to use, like, multiple tools, right? Like, multiple avenues. So something that I used to struggle a lot with was, like, Internet drama. Like, I was really into Facebook, and I'm a very political person, and inevitably someone would, like, upset me and I'd waste a bunch of time getting in some, like, online argument with some idiot, usually someone I didn't even know. And then not only would my mood be bad, I would be, like, late for things. I'd. And it's like, it sucked all my, like, productivity for the day. Like, after being in some, like, Internet flame war, I would just find that I wasn't able to, like, rally my brain and get organized. So for me, it wasn't about, like, cold turkey going off all social media, but I kind of did a few things that helped Me, number one, I noticed that the most harmful time for me to use social media was first thing in the morning. Like, if I woke up and went on Facebook, which I often did, like scrolling, just to wake myself up, I was. I realized I was, like, still way more dysregulated right after waking up. And so if I saw something upsetting, I was way more likely to, like, you know, clap back at that person and then, you know, get a thing going. Whereas if I did it in the afternoon when I was already busy, often I'd be like, oh, that person says something really stupid. But I don't have time to get into it with them right now, right? So I realized, okay, the first, like, few minutes after I wake up, I cannot go on Facebook, right? That's like a very dangerous time. And same thing with, like, alcohol, right? I've started, I've come to recognize long ago, like, when in my life I shouldn't be having drinks, like, if something hard is going on, if there's, you know, certain people around that might, you know, trigger me in different ways if I'm going to be in certain environments, right? Like, just identifying the most harmful part of when you do this thing. Like, when is it the least bothersome? When is it the most bothersome? And just cut out the most bothersome. The other thing that helps is, like, you helped me with specifically, like, Internet stuff was, like, using tools that limited things, but they didn't work all the time. And this is. I hear this from clients all the time. They'll try to use different methods of getting them to. Getting themselves to abstain from something, but they tend to go all or nothing. If it doesn't work all the time, they'll just discount it. So. And I think that it's still relevant to count it if it works some of the time. So I. There's this app that I love called One Sec. And what it does is it's not an Internet blocker, but if you try to go on a certain website for a free version, you can pick, like, one website. And if you do the paid version, you can, like, set it to any websites you want. It'll just kind of like, throw up a screen and you just have to wait for the screen to, like, slowly go up and, like. And then there's a message, right? And so, like, for mine, I just have the free version. It says, like, you know, take a deep breath in and out, right? And then it goes like, okay, you've been on Facebook, you know, 10 times today. Do you. Do you actually want to go on Facebook. And honestly, because I'm like impulsively dopamine seeking, sometimes just the, like delay in getting to Facebook is enough for me to be like, you know what? I don't even want you, Whatever, I'll do something else instead. Right, but you can do that for any and all apps. And the thing is, you can still proceed to the app. So it's not going to work a hundred percent of the time. And when I talk to my clients about like Internet addiction, which is so common, especially like smartphone addiction, you know, they'll say like, oh, well, this blocker didn't work all the time. Okay, but here's the thing, guys. If it's even working one in four times, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Maybe we need three more tools if your goal is a hundred percent compliance. But you know, maybe it's only two more tools. But if that's absorbing 25% of the time, that's not nothing, right? And if I, if, you know, let's say if I use that app about drinking alcohol and I set my intention to only have three drinks, well, when I'm at home, if I only buy three drinks, I only have three drinks. Okay, I'm succeeding. Maybe that approach, like, doesn't work when I go to a bar or a friend's house where they're going to keep offering me a drink. But if that approach works when I'm buying alcohol at home, it still works, it still counts. And I found that for me and for my clients, assembling like a whole sort of like rabble of small interventions is how you effectively achieve modulation. It just feels like it shouldn't take that much work because it's not even all or nothing, but, you know, like, that's fine.

B (20:25)

Dusty. As far as smartphone usage goes. One thing I will add that's a low tech solution and something that has worked for me is just signing out of apps. So if I open up Reddit or whatever and I have to sign in first, that creates that same pause moment. And really that's what we're talking about. There is that pause moment. Cam and I used to talk a lot about pause, disrupt, pivot. And as a reminder, that model, when we talk about that model, the pause is the hardest part with adhd, coming to that useful awareness in the moment. So even if you're only getting one out of three times, if you're pausing and you're aware that you're making a choice that you don't want to make in a way that you might not have been before because you just the phone's in your hand and you're on Facebook and you're not even realizing what you're doing. That is progress. That is getting you closer to being able to get to that next step of disruption in the moment. And so that alone has value. That is practice in noticing what it is you're doing, noticing the choices that you're making. And even if you're not able to stop yourself, that's okay. There's an opportunity there on the backside to cultivate some awareness. What was it about that moment that made it not possible for me to stop myself? And curious questions like that is how we get to what else can we try here? I do also want to talk about marijuana, because I know a lot of people with ADHD experience positive effects of marijuana. Certainly I feel like marijuana has a positive place in my own life. You talk about that brain quieting with wine. That's what marijuana does for me is it kind of turns off the inner dialogue. It can be a presence, enabler, especially at something like a show or a social outing. So in those settings, I really enjoy it. But. But I noticed for myself that I was getting into a habit of once my day was done, I was like, okay, let's get high and then let's do chores. Well, what would end up happening is I would get high and now I don't want to do chores because those are boring. So I would go off seeking something more interesting to do. For me, the solution has been, in large part, I don't get high until I don't have stuff to do. But I had a client who had a similar dilemma and he was describing I really actually like when I'm getting into something that doesn't need a lot of heavy thoughts that isn't super intricate. If it's more of a, like, I'm organizing or I'm cleaning or I'm gardening or I'm doing something that's manual that I can kind of get into a rhythm of. I really enjoy marijuana alongside that, but it's not always effective and I don't know why. And so what we discovered over the course of a couple of coaching conversations about this is that the client had to already be activated for the task. Right. If he was already activated for whatever it was he was going to do, then he could go ahead if he wanted to and enjoy some marijuana alongside that task and keep on trucking along. But if he wasn't already activated for the task and for him, activation is getting from that place of like planning, knowing that I have all of the things that I need to do the thing and having somewhat of a plan of what happens next. Doing that part while high does not work well for that client. So getting that part out of the way, which was a separate practice that we came up for, to kind of grease the groove to activate for whatever came next. The marijuana comes in the middle and can be a little treat, a little carrot. Right. I did the boring planning part, I've greased the groove. Now I'm actually motivated and ready to go. And now I can kind of ease into this and do it in a relaxed and enjoyable way. I don't have to, I don't have to like sprint. I can just vibe, I guess.

A (24:18)

Yeah. And I just want to sort of summarize my thoughts on this. Like as you're like, like you're talking about when you accept that you don't have to go all or nothing or that maybe like all or nothing isn't the best way you can actually start to think about like how to work with this, you know, this circumstance that you have. And like, when is it going to be harmful, when is it going to be helpful, when is it going to be less harmful? And I think that's really important because like we would, sure, we would all love to make the best, most safest, you know, health or behavioral choices we can. It's not realistic, right. And cold turkey is just not sustainable for so many of us because like it's not just about removing something or adding something. There's a whole lifestyle shift that has to happen, right? You can't just say remove like alcohol from your life if all of your friends drink or you're expected to drink at like work functions or something, right. Or you have a bunch of alcohol sitting in your fridge that's just going to go. You just decide tomorrow I'm not going to drink anymore. Okay. What do you do with all of that stuff in your fridge? You're just going to go, oh, well, it's going to go to waste. Right. I think I've accepted our Lord and savior modulation and moderation into my heart here. And what I think is so great about it is it allows you to slowly make those lifestyle shifts that you would need to make to sustain the behavior. Because this is all, this isn't about short term change. Anybody with ADC can do short term change while it's novel, but to really make a long term behavior stick it. It's exactly like what People say with like diet and exercise, right? And obesity and stuff, right? People say like everybody, yo, yo, diets, they lose weight, they gain weight, they lose weight, they gain weight. Because, you know, if you want to reduce your body size, which, you know, you don't have to, but that's the thing that some people want to do, I guess. You know, it's about lifestyle change, right? It's about like changing the way that you relate to your food habits and your body movement habits, right? It's not about just like adding in something or taking something away. And you know, there's such a ripple effect there, right? Whether it's drinking or it's marijuana or it's how you eat or it's how you use the Internet. There's going to be like a million little shifts that you have to make and we can't make all of those at once and we can't even anticipate what all those are. So it's just such a more healthy and sustainable route, I think, actually getting where you're trying to go. But it is maddeningly slow. Like, we're talking like, you know, I always tell my clients, instead of trying to have a major lifestyle overhaul by this time next month, let's think about this time next year or like this time five years from now. Because those, that time is going to pass anyway. And if you yo, yo, back and forth with whatever it is, you go, oh, I want to stop drinking or smoking, and then you fall off the wagon and you keep drinking and smoking and then you stop again and then you start again. You like that time passes anyway and you've only made 50% progress. You just did it in an all or nothing fashion. Well, why not make that 50% progress sustainably and evenly over the same amount of time and like reduce, you know, overall so that you can actually build towards it. I don't know, I don't know if I'm making myself clear, if I'm just rambling at this point. But like, I'm definitely a big fan of the moderation approach and it requires a lot of little interventions and it requires understanding, it requires patience, which we're not great at, but I do think it's a lot more sustainable.

B (27:27)

Dusty, that was really well said. And listeners, I just want to be clear when we talk about incremental and sustainable progress, it is okay to have backsliding in those moments, but when we do it in small steps, rather than, I'm on, I'm off, I'm drinking, I'm not drinking, I'M smoking, I'm not smoking, then we are also more able to notice. So if we start to slip back into we're at least this is true for me. I'm much more able to notice the effects of those things than when I go from I haven't smoked in two years to now I'm back on a pack a day. It's such a drastic change that I almost don't even notice the impacts. But if I'm doing pretty well with smoking and I bum the occasional I'm drinking cigarette from a friend and feel like crap the next morning because my body is no longer used to cigarettes, then I'm able to remember why I don't smoke cigarettes anymore. Because if one cigarette made me feel that bad, then how was I ever smoking a pack a day and feeling okay? And I certainly don't want to know what it feels like to go back to smoking a pack a day at this point. I think we have more to say on this. And next week, listeners, what we're going to do is we're going to kind of take the same topic that we were talking today about changing negative habits. So stopping the thing that you no longer want to do or reducing the thing you no longer want to do, changing your relationship with a substance or something that has an addictive quality. Next week we're going to do the same thing, but we're going to talk about how you use the same idea of modulation to build positive habits to introduce something new. So we're out of time for today, but until next week.

A (29:11)

I'm Ash and I'm Dusty and this.

B (29:14)

Was the Translating ADHD podcast. Thanks for listening.