B (4:37)

Yeah. And like, that's something that a lot of my clients deal with for sure. And something that can be like a little frustrating to me is, you know, you know, because I, I do a lot of posting on social media and so I'm on social media a lot. And especially TikTok is like rife with like tips and hacks and like organizing tricks. I think one thing that's hard for me as a coach is like, there's a plethora and there's no end to, like, advice for people with ADHD about how to organize. But my experience, and maybe you can speak to this. Ash, I, I feel like this is kind of what you were saying is every person with ADHD needs something different. So what works for one person isn't going to work for another. And then so these hacks and these tips and tricks just end up being even more disempowering or they might even kind of reinforce harmful things. Right. So for example, you just said, you know, that for A lot of people clutter is very stressful. I find that to be the case as well. But even I think it was, and I'm not trying to call anyone out here, but I think it was like Dr. Edward Ned Hallowell. I saw a TikTok from him saying like, oh, people with ADHD like need piles. And he was, I saw this, some piece of content from him saying that he likes to have his like piles around because he needs to be able to see his things. So he's kind of there reinforcing that, like, oh, it's okay to have piles of things and leave them out. Whereas like for other people, you know, piles are like really bad or really distracting. Right. And so my experience is, you know, the hard part of organizing, you know, once you get past all the shame and all the effort that it takes and making the time for it and, and just being brave enough to approach it, is that there's no real. It's. It's trial and error. Right. And what works for one person may or may not work for you. And so it might take you a few tries to figure out the right way to organize your. And that's really challenging because I definitely think there's a lot of that, you know, people want to be one and done. Right?

A (6:23)

Yeah. It's the idea of the magical land of caught up. We don't think about maintenance as part of the organization process. But that's actually probably the most critical piece because stuff is always coming in to our spaces. Even if you are like me, I am a relative minimalist. I am very anti capitalist. I don't spend a lot of money on things that I don't need. I'm very thoughtful about what I do purchase. Even in my case, stuff comes in to my home all of the time. Right. So stuff, stuff is always coming in. There is always going to be a need to maintain, to go through, to reevaluate. And folks with ADHD are really prone to that all or nothing thinking, particularly when it comes to organization, that if I do it once I'm done, done. Right. I'm just done.

B (7:19)

Well. So Asher, are you familiar, have you seen much of the work of Casey Davis or domestic blisters on TikTok? She has that book how to Keep House while Drowning. Are you familiar with her like philosophies and advice and stuff?

A (7:32)

I'm not.

B (7:33)

Okay. So one of the things I think that she did that was really revolutionary and very helpful for a lot of people is she started talking about chores as care tasks. So she kind of like, mentally reframed them as like, care tasks. But also she said care tasks are ongoing, they're cyclical. Right. She said, like, if you get in your car and you feel you gas up your car, you're not like, disappointed when your car is empty. You're not like, oh, how could this have happened? Like, you know that your gas, the fullness of your gas tank is a cycle. It goes from full to partially empty to like totally empty. And then at some point you gas it up again. And she said that, like, the way that we tend to think about our dishes and our laundry and our. Our house care tasks, like, organizing is kind of like you're saying, like, it's. It's either done or it's not done. But she said we should be thinking of it more as like a cycle. Like, yes, once all the dishes are cleaned, it's like an ongoing cycle until the dishes need to be done again. It's. It's a cyclical thing that's always going to keep recurring, but that doesn't mean that it's always like, perfect or imperfect. It's like in. Somewhere in the cycle. And I. And there's a bit of like a cognitive reframe here that I think was really helpful to a lot of people with ADHD where they were always feeling like the laundry is done or not done, the dishes are done or not done. And then now we start to see it as part of, like, an ongoing cycle that's never. It's never done. But that doesn't mean that it's always not done. It's in a. It's an. It's in a state of flux always. And it's something that is going to have to keep happening more like a habit or a routine than like a one and done kind of thing. That seemed to be really helpful for a lot of people. And she's got a couple of other. She's more about tidying than she is about organizing per se. But I think the two go hand in hand. Right? Because, like, what you're saying is, yeah, we can organize it, but there has to be. There has to be sort of like maintainable routines that. That mean that the organization is honored and that things get put where they're supposed to be. Because if you put the wrong things there or you don't put things where they go, even after you've made homes for them, the organization does nothing. Everything is just going to devolve again. So there's like this secondary piece around the maintenance and how we think about the maintenance and starting to think about it less as this either done or not done, clean or not clean. But this ongoing cycle of care tasks.

A (9:39)

Dusty, I really like that. And I think one of the things it can also help bypass is perfectionism. I think a place where social media has been really toxic to things like home organization, decor maintenance, et cetera, is setting these really unrealistic expectations that your home should look like something out of a catalog. And here's the thing, if you're actually living your life in your house, it's never or it's very rarely going to look or be, be that way. There's always, as you said, going to be a bit of a cycle. There's going to be things that are a little out of place. There's going to be things that you just. My kitchen right now is a disaster because I made a big dinner last night and I was late enough in making that dinner that I chose not to do the dishes. And there is a time where every time I went into that kitchen today, I would beat myself up for that. But where we're at now, it's sort of a recognition of yes, I do need to tackle this tonight or at the latest tomorrow so that it doesn't explode into like a wall of awful amount of dishes. But this is not what I'm focused on right now. And that is okay. And dinner last night was delicious, so that is fine.

B (10:55)

Well, and we need to acknowledge here too, because I think this disproportionately impacts AFAB ADHDers or women with ADHD, because there's that expectation of, that we're the ones keeping the home clean and like, okay, you can do it and I have done it. Okay. And let me tell you, depending on how messy your house is, who lives in your home, how messy you are and how much stuff you have, which I call inventory management. It's a different amount of effort to, to keep your home sort of maintained at that, you know, Instagram worthy level for some people. If you, if you live in a small home and you live alone and you don't have that many things, maybe it doesn't take that much time. I live in a five bedroom, two level house with three children, three adults, three dogs, one cat, one bird. And I'm messy. And some, some of the people who live in this house own a lot of things. So I've. But the, the thing that we aren't acknowledging here is like, where could that time go and quality of life right when I'm more concerned about maintaining a clean home. I'm not engaging with my child. I'm not spending quality time with my kids. They're just seeing me clean. There's. They want to play games with me. I say I'm too busy. I'm not spending time making music. I'm not spending time working on my business. I'm not spending time relaxing. Right. It's a matter of priorities. You can prioritize having a clean home above all else, but is that really worth it when it takes up like that much of your time and energy?

A (12:12)

Precisely. Dusty. And now I want to actually like pivot and talk a little bit about what it might look like to organize to your own adhd. I've got a really great example from a client that I was working with a couple of years ago. She and her husband each did their own laundry. That was a, that was a household agreement between them in part because of her ADHD laundry challenges. And she was stuck in this really awful cycle where all of her laundry would end up on the bed in the guest room, which was fine until she had a guest coming. And then it felt like this completely awful, overwhelming task. But her closet didn't feel conducive to getting the laundry into the closet. So we had kind of a twofold problem of first organizing the closet a little bit, the walk in closet that she had. But then there was some habit stuff in there. And interestingly enough what the solve ended up being because so much of her challenge was taking the time to hang things up, she found that really onerous. And the solve for her ended up being that things that needed to be hung up, which was not most of her wardrobe on a day to day basis did get hung up. So if she wore a dress out on a date night or whatever, something that that needs to go on a hanger or else it's not going to be wearable again because it will be wrink. Hence why she would lay things out flat on the guest bedroom bed as an alternative would get hung up. But her daily wear clothes were very wash and wear wrinkle free because she worked in elementary school. And so we started with one basket and ended up with two. One for tops and one for bottoms. But two baskets in her walk in closet, one for her worktops, one for her work bottoms. And that was a system that she was able to maintain, but in order to get there surprisingly had to break down a lot of limiting beliefs about what she should do. You know, I've got this nice walk in closet. It should be a Certain way. Well, who says it has to be that way? Right? And actually her and her husband have separate walk in closets because his closet is very neat and organized and aesthetic. And that might be because that's what he needs, but not everyone needs that. Right. And if you don't need that, you don't have to aspire to someone else's standard there. Something that does matter to me in my own closet is that all my hangers match. I don't like the visual clutter of a billion different types of hangers. So many, many years ago, I invested in a set of nice hangers so that all of my hangers match. But I don't need my closet to be more aesthetic than that. That was something I needed and invested in. But I don't need my closet to look catalog ready. When you open the door on the floor, like, my shoes are all scattered on the floor when they get chucked back in the closet. They literally get chucked back in the closet. But I know that both shoes are in there. It's not a big closet. I live in a small house. They're easy enough to find. So I don't care if a pair of sneakers is sitting on top of my pair of docs or whatever else. I don't care if they're a little piled up. It doesn't bother me. So I don't need to aspire to someone else's standard there. And it will probably. It will almost surely prevent me from putting my shoes away if I feel like I have to find a perfect little spot on the floor for them to sit next to each other versus being able to just open the door and chuck them in the door.

B (15:41)

Yeah, that's. It's so interesting that you kind of say, like, you know, that you don't need to aspire to someone else's sort of organizing goals. And I think that actually I have a question for you because as a coach, I think that's actually been really a big challenge for me in helping people with this because what makes it hard for me to be a tidy person, and I've historically been quite an untidy person, I've realized is like, really specific and quite different than a lot of my clients. So. So me, I'm like, always too busy. I'm a chronic over committer. So my biggest issue is one, not knowing where or how to put things away, and then two, not having time. And I've been able to really solve a lot of those issues by going quite minimalist with a lot of the things that I own. Because when you have fewer things, you have to find fewer homes. You know, you have one pair of shoes, you have one home for the shoes. It takes way less time to put the shoes away, especially if the home is accessible. Right. And so by. By really paring back the amount of things that I own and then just, like, making homes for those things, even though I don't leave myself a lot of time, it's made it a lot easier for me to clean up after myself. Right. And so I've solved a lot of my own mess challenges that way. But what I've found, Ash, and I want to ask your advice on this is many, Many of my clients are like, really kind of pack rats. They own a lot of things, and so they have a lot of inventory management. So even when we're doing the. The organizing process and they're trying to figure out how to organize their stuff, it's really challenging because they often have more things than will fit in their space. Or it's a big job and a big challenge I have because you mentioned limiting beliefs. And so I think there's a lot of beliefs here around, like, getting rid of things. And obviously, like, I'm not trying to tell people to be, like, minimalist because it's not right for everyone. And again, this is somewhere where, like, it's interesting because I'm quite different than a lot of my clients this way. And even here's an example, my roommate is a lot like this. They. They have a lot of items. And yesterday I asked them to go through our front coat closet with me, because the coat closet is packed. There are two coats that are in there that are mine. One leather jacket and one raincoat. I don't even have a winter coat. They had, like, eight different coats. Like, literally it was eight or nine coats. And I said to them, do you really need eight or nine coats? And they said, well, each coat is for a different purpose. So they had, like, one coat per purpose. I don't even. I will literally wear, like, just, like, I will. I'm the kind of person who, like, never has the thing that I need. I just make it work. I don't. I've never thought about having a coat for, like, every season. Like, it's just never occurred to me. And if I have one coat, I'll just wear it in all seasons. So that. That mindset doesn't really, like, occur to me. But for a lot of my clients, again, they. They've acquired a lot of stuff for different reasons. And they find it very challenging to declutter or get rid of things. And again, I'm not like trying to push them to get rid of more than they want to get rid of. But you know, I've done a lot of my own research on sort of like, you know, I've read a lot of the, like the Marie Kondo and the Home Edit. And it seems to me that in all of the organizing advice there is some step where you have to kind of like either you make more space for the things that you have, but if you have too many things for the space, at some point you do kind of need to like pare back if you have too much stuff. And so what I want to know from you, Ash, is like, if you have a client who's struggling with that inventory management, with just having too much stuff to manage and it makes the organizing process really, really, really slow, laborious, or like just this job that is too big, what do you find helpful for clients in working through that or managing that?

A (19:14)

The very first step in a situation like that is to figure out how to break down the project, right? Particularly if we're talking about like the clients I was talking about earlier. If we're talking about a huge house where disorganization is in every single space, then you, you just have to figure out how to slice off a piece of it, right? So in your bedroom, your closet, you might organize that separately from organizing your dressers or if there are a lot of like loose things or stuff on the floor, you might start with, you might just start with surveying all of the stuff that's out on the flat surfaces and kind of deal with, let's deal with the stuff that's not out and then let's go into individual storage areas and deal with the stuff that's in those things. And the model that I have continued to use this, I use this when I was an organizer. I continue to use it with my clients. When we're talking about organizational topics in coaching to this day is from Julie Morgenstern. She wrote Organizing from the Inside Out. She's a well known figure in the professional organizing world. And the acronym is space. S, P, A, C, E. And here's what each word stands for. S is sort. So if, for example, if you're dealing with like a guest room that became the catch, all for stuff that you don't know where it goes, or one of my clients was prone to what she called doom bags and doom boxes, right. The quick cleanup of the guest space means that all of that stuff gets thrown into doom boxes and doom bags and shoved into the guest room closet. The idea, idea here is just to pull things out and sort them in a way that makes sense to you. And by the way, the to you there is really important. If I'm working on a closet with a client as an organizer, it might be as simple as shirts and pants, or it might be like my one client who had five distinct categories of T shirts, all of which made sense to him. There were his undershirts. He wore a suit and tie to work every day. So plain shirts that are well fitted to go under a button down shirt. There were his sports shirts. St. Louis is a, is a big sports town. So if he's going to the Cards or the Blues or the Billikens or any number of other teams that we have those, those shirts for those purposes, athletic wear. And then there was going to the hardware store. That was my favorite category. So that was like the, the cozy thing that I'll throw on if I'm doing bumming around the house or doing errands on a Saturday or Sunday. And then interestingly enough, he had this category of comedy T shirts that he never wore, but it was a, it was a valued and beloved collection of his. Right. So that was not only its own category, that was one that ended up not making it back into the closet. And the thing that can be tough to deal with with adhd, with our all or nothing thinking, is especially if you're dealing with a room, like a catch all room, where you're finding unopened mail alongside Christmas gifts that you haven't done anything with from two or three years ago, alongside whatever else. It can be really frustrating that this part of the process kind of makes a mess. First, it doesn't the mess any better. It just puts the mess in better organized piles. But once you've done the sort, then it's easier to do step two, which is purge. So if you, if I just pull items out of a client's closet one at a time and say, do you want this? Do you want this? Do you want this? They have no context for whether or not they want that article of clothing. But if we have all of your sweaters together and we're looking through them one by one, it can be easier to a. You can see how many sweaters you own and you can contextualize which sweaters do I wear a lot and which ones do I not? One little hack that I like to use with clients who would have trouble with decision making in this realm is friends, acquaintances and strangers. So if you're thinking about something like sweaters or coffee mugs is a great example here. Because everybody has too many coffee mugs, right? Friends are your favorite coffee mugs. They're that. That's like your number one. Number two, that's if that coffee mug is clean, that is the one that I am going to grab and have my coffee in every single morning because it is my favorite coffee mug. The that coffee mug or those couple of coffee mugs are your friends. Acquaintances might be the ones that are good enough if the other ones are dirty, or the ones that you you like well enough to have around if you're having people over and serving coffee, the ones that, that are special to you for some other reason. For clothing, acquaintances can look like, yes, I might only wear this once a year, once every couple of years. I might only wear this if I get invited to a wedding or have to go to a funeral or have some very specific sort of event. An acquaintance could be something like an ugly Christmas sweater that really only has a purpose once a year. And then strangers. Strangers are, I don't know the last time that I've used or worn this, or I don't know when I've last interacted with, use or had a use for this particular item. And so the deal I would make with my clients if they were open to it is your friends are an automatic keep, right? We'll worry about, we'll worry about the storage aspects later. Even if you have a lot of friends, we will worry about how we store these friends later. Strangers are an automatic donate and acquaintances are kind of up for negotiations. So that's also when you do start to. And this is getting to the next step a which is assign a home. You know, if we only have this much closet space for sweaters and you have twice that amount of sweaters, we've got options, right? You can store some of your sweaters somewhere else, or we can go through this process again and downsize further. And that's where you really get into what are the individual goals here? Because for some clients, maybe storing the acquaintances in a guest room closet or in a basement is a perfectly viable solution and something that they are willing to do. Whereas for someone like me, if it doesn't fit in my closet, I might as well not own it if it is living in another. And I even have a really small house. Like it is not a big deal for me to walk into. My kid's room has two closets. And so one of those closets is kind of our coat extra closet. It is not a big deal for me to walk in to her room and grab something out of there or to walk downstairs and grab something out of storage down there. But, but if it's not out, I don't know that I own it and I'm just never ever going to wear it. Right. So when you get to the a assign a home, that's when you can start to evaluate how much have I kept and what space do I have. And if you've kept more than you have space for, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to downsize further. But that's your opportunity to evaluate what are the trade offs here? Is it worth it to store it in another space or do I want to make another pass at this and downsize further from there? C is containerize. And notice this comes pretty late in the process. A big thing that I have noticed with ADHD folks, particularly when I was going into homes and organizing, is we tend to buy the containers first. We tend to buy the containers without knowing what our organizing goals are. And so when I was doing hands on professional organizing in almost every house I worked in, I would start a quote unquote container store of all of the containers that we were finding in different spaces that had never been used. And we would shop from those first once we got to this step. But again, you've assigned a home now you know something about what containers you may or may not want to have. And I, I'm a fan of containers. In some instances, my kitchen drawers I have, I have drawer dividers in every single one of them, even though that makes less overall space because it makes it easier for me to put my hands on whatever cooking utensil I am looking for in that drawer immediately. So I am willing to sacrifice the space and to spend the money on the containers to have that. But you may find that you don't need it. And so that's why we assign a home first. Just live with it for a little while and maybe make do with what you have. I've used things like shoe boxes, old cell phone boxes actually because they're really sturdy. Cardboard can make great drawer organizers. Kind of, kind of playing around with what you have first and then evaluating what the need is and acquiring those items if needed. And E is equalize. So E is the, the moment of truth. Where does does the clean laundry make it? Into the dressers and into the closet where I've designated it to go do do dishes and utensils make it back to the spaces that they are supposed to go as new stuff is coming in. If I buy a bunch of new clothes and my closet space starts to get tight again, might it be time to make another pass and evaluate and. Or if you're somebody who's storing clothing in multiple places to rework how you're doing that to make take space in your primary closet.

B (28:33)

Wow, that's. It's really good to hear like your whole in depth process. And I've heard that somewhere before too. The whole like friends, acquaintances, strangers. My question is what are some of the. Because I've encountered some limiting beliefs around the whole like getting rid of strangers. Right. I think that people feel wasteful if they've spent money on it or it's gifts or they just feel like I get a lot of like, but what if I need it someday? How do you handle that?

A (28:59)

Well, this is where I like to put the emphasis on what space are we organizing and what's the goal for this space? Okay, so if you have a two full closet and you want your closet to be more useful to you, then working through that acronym, when we get to assign a home, we're only going to put the things in the closet that are currently relevant to you. Right. So the end result is an organized closet. Now if you have things left over that you don't yet know what to do with them, that's okay. That's okay, right? It's okay. And you may just need to find another space to store those items until you decide what you're going to do with them from there. Because you're right, there is that limiting belief of being wasteful of, of somebody gave this to me. And I think it's a really individual process to go through those things. But I find that once you have the organized space, once you have a space that's working well for you, that alone can make that easier. When I was doing professional organizing, I can't tell you how many times that we started with A, to sell pile, right? My client's going to have a garage sale or they're going to, they're. They're going to make sure it gets to somebody who's. Who will really love it and is going to use it. And then over time, as A, spaces, other spaces became more organized and B, is that pile kind of grew and impeded our ability to organize the space that that pile was living in. Perspective would sort of change from there. One other trick that worked for me a couple of times, the clients who really Struggled is a partway gone box. So pack it up like you're going to donate it, tape it up, and if you don't look at it again in six months or a year, then let it go. So kind of committing with that's a way to kind of experiment with that commitment and approach it without having to make the decision right then and there to donate the items. And again, that does mean that you have to find some space for these boxes and things to live. But that can be a really helpful concept in terms of getting used to what it's like to not have those things and then evaluating with fresh eyes, do I really want to drag any or all of this stuff back into my spaces when I haven't missed it in months?

B (31:27)

That's a really good point. And I you mentioned there, like, once you get a space working, that I think there's a reinforcing mechanism there. I saw this really good TikTok. There's this one woman who's an organizer on TikTok, and she had a really good tip that I've often shared with clients because for me, I realized, like, what it comes down to is people are. Are worried about the potential pain of, like, not having something they need, but they're not looking at what it's already costing them now to not have an organized space. Right. Like, there's all this pain of, like, how much work it's going to be and the stress it's going to cost you. And yet they'll choose that over the, like, hypothetical, you know, pain that they may or may not experience by, like, like getting rid of something and then not having it when they need it. And so this organizer, her name, I think her name is Allison Lush, I think, and she said, think of your possessions like roommates and ask yourself, are they paying you rent? Right. You know, you mentioned your client with the comedy T shirts, right? He gets value out of them. He doesn't wear them. They're taking up space somewhere that could hypothetically be taken up by something else, but he gets value out of them. And so that value is the rent. Whether it's a high use item or something that has nostalgia or like, emotional meaning for you, that's the rent. But if it's something that you never use, that isn't usable, maybe it's something broken, maybe it's something that needs mending, maybe it's something that doesn't fit that well, but it's taking up all this space that then impedes your ability to get better organized. It's Almost like a roommate who like lays around on your couch all the time, like eating your food so that you can't use your living room. But it's freeloading, right? You wouldn't let a person take up all this space in your house and like bring all their crap into your house and like make it so that you couldn't use whole rooms of your house if they weren't at least paying you rent. But we do this with our stuff. There's whole rooms in our house that we can't use because they're filled with stuff that we don't really need that isn't contributing in any way to our joy. And so in a way that stuff is not paying us rent. And I think that that is something that has been a useful mindset for, for my clients to think about it almost like in terms of money, because it is about like cost some kind of value, right? And that's it. You know, I find, I find often clients are worried more about the potential pain than the pain of not being able to have people over or feeling like there's this never ending organizing process. And it's, it's interesting because for me, I find that I'm. I'm quite ruthless about getting rid of things. And I guess maybe like you're saying, like, I've had the experience of. Once I've gotten rid of things and gone quite minimalist with a few things, it becomes so easy to take care of my space that it's like sort of a positive self reinforcing mechanism. But it's also, you know, our last episode was on humility. Like as a coach, I'm humble enough to know that like, just because that worked for me doesn't mean that that's the right choice for other people. And I don't necessarily experience the same level of distress or the same meaning that other people have around their stuff and why they keep it. So I'm always on the lookout for like all the different mindsets and the different approaches because ultimately something will work for everyone. But it's so interesting to me how people need such different approaches to make sense of how they organize their space or find a happy medium for themselves with their physical situation.

A (34:39)

Absolutely. Dusty. I have done organizing work both as an organizer and a coach for clients where I would be distressed by the result, because that's not the result that I would be looking for, but where the client was very happy with the result, including this real estate agent I worked with years ago who had this crazy busy life. She, she had this business that was really busy. And she was also very involved in pet resc. So she had a lot of. A lot of supplies for that. And that ever changing because that's one of those things that is sort of on demand, what's needed right now. And so we took the doors off of the closet in her home office and put bookshelves up there and everything was just sitting out. And that's precisely what she wanted. She wanted to be able to grab stuff and go. She didn't care that it looked visually messy. That didn't matter to her. She liked that things didn't have to make it back to a precise place because so long as they were on one of those shelves, it was easy enough for her to look at the shelves and grab the things she needed for whatever it was she was about to do. And she was really pleased with how that turned out. That would have made me crazy. I would not have been able to work in that room. But I am not her and she is not me. So. So yeah, the opportunity here is to discover what organized looks like for you. And if you don't know at all, start with something that feels relatively unintimidating. Start with a closet, a dresser drawer, a kitchen cabinet. When we talk about the sorts step, you don't necessarily have to undo your entire kitchen to organize your kitchen, nor might you want to because you still need to use your kitchen if this is something that's going to take you multiple sessions in order to do. But upper cabinets and lower cabinets tend to hold different types of things and in general you kind of know or you might have an idea of where you want your plates and mugs to live. So maybe just start with one cabinet and see how that goes and see, see what that process feels like and then you can start to expand it out into more difficult places.

B (36:47)

Yeah, that's good advice and this comes up a lot in my coaching. So I actually was. I've been really wanting to talk to you about this. It's really interesting to hear how you've worked with clients in the past around it.

A (36:56)

Dusty, I think that's a good place for us to wrap for today. But listeners, before we do, just a quick reminder that we would really appreciate it if you leave a review wherever you are listening to the podcast, Please and thank you. We appreciate your support. So until next week, I'm Ash. And I'm Dusty and this was the Translating ADHD podcast. Thanks for listening.