← Translating ADHD
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Ash.
- [00:02]
B
And I'm Dusty.
- [00:03]
A
And this is translating ADHD listeners. Before we get started, I am still taking new clients. So if you've been thinking about coaching, and in particular about coaching with me, now is a great time to get started. For more information and to fill out my intake form, Visit my website, coachasher.com so, Dusty, you want to tell our listeners what we're talking about today?
- [00:28]
B
Yeah, we're talking about honesty and communication.
- [00:31]
A
Ooh, that's a tough one on so many levels for those of us with adhd. You want to say more about that?
- [00:37]
B
Yeah. So I've just been thinking about communication styles and some of the social struggles that we have as neurodivergent people, because especially more among, I think, like the Audi ageders or the autistic folks, you know, we get this feedback that we're too honest or, like, maybe too blunt. But I think this is applicable to ADHD as well, because there's that impulsivity, right? Like that thought to action pipeline. It's so quick. Sometimes we don't have a filter because by the time we think it, we're blurting it. And then also, like, we are. There's that because of that rules brain and that justice sensitivity. Like, we know that, like, it is, right? And it is good to speak the truth. We want to be authentic. And sometimes holding back some information makes us feel inauthentic. And we know that telling the truth is the right thing to do. So I think it all kind of gets jumbled up into, like, this outcome, which is sometimes with adhd, like, we're too honest or like, we give too much information, you know, and it gets us in trouble.
- [01:34]
A
Ooh, Dusty, give me some examples of that.
- [01:36]
B
Yeah, so like, over explaining, right? Giving too much information about why you didn't do a thing or don't want to do a thing or couldn't do a thing, Right. Sometimes adding too much context makes the situation worse. Or say, like, say, going through a breakup, right? You're trying to, like, let someone down. It's a painful situation, but because you feel bad about it, you're going on and on and giving, like, way too much information. And it might end up making the person feel worse, you know, than just sort of keeping it brief or maybe over explaining why you called in sick to work. Something like that. And I will say, like, I also want to say that I think where I started thinking about this was the ways that being honest is actually like a benefit and that something, a skill and a strength that we have. So I want to. I want to go there as well. But I don't know when we just started talking about it now. I started off with the negative of it, but there. There is somewhere positive. I want to go with this as well. But, yeah, that's what I would say. Like, over explaining is one aspect of it. And then also, I think, like, bluntness. Right. So maybe saying a thing to somebody about themselves in a way that is direct, but not taking into consideration the impact it could have on them might hurt their feelings. I'll give you an example. I was having a tense moment with my dad a couple months ago, and my dad has a tendency to have a really hard time stopping himself from talking. So when he's talking, he goes on and on and on and on and on. I was trying to help him with a problem, and he wasn't giving me the information that I needed to help him with the problem. So I interrupted him a couple times to ask a direct question to kind of get him back on track because he was going on tangents. And he just blurted out at me, he said, he's, I can't believe people pay you money to listen to them because you're not very good at listening. And I was like, damn, dude, that's cold. And, like, the thing is, he was just frustrated because he was trying to organize his thoughts. And every time I interrupted him, it, like, you know, it got him off track. And he wasn't, like, trying to be a jerk, but, like, the way he said it, I was like, ouch.
- [03:39]
A
Is your dad nerd a virgin, by the way?
- [03:42]
B
Oh, super neurodivergent.
- [03:43]
A
Yeah. So actually, like, let's kind of break that down to neurodivergence having a conversation. Right? Because when we first talked about doing this episode, we talked about communication with neurotypicals, but we can struggle just as much to communicate with other neurodivergence, because in that case, it sounded like what your dad really needed was to kind of talk it out. Talk at you. That's a term that I use often when I need to kind of hear my thoughts out loud and organize them. Like, I want to talk at you more than talk to you. And so. But at the meantime, the way that he's talking at you isn't helping you catch up to what the situation actually is so that you can be helpful, so that you can give advice. And so there's kind of frustration mounting on both sides, and you're clarifying questions disrupted his process.
- [04:33]
B
And in that situation, he didn't give me a chance to explain that I was on my way somewhere. So I didn't have time. I was thinking about the time crunch. I was like, I only have so much time to help you with this. But I didn't get a chance to tell him because he forgot to leave space in the conversation. You know, he just like, launched into it. Right, sure.
- [04:50]
A
So, like, so, so many neurodivergent pitfalls happening all at once that kind of culminates in emotional response from both of you. And that's kind of the opposite of honesty, actually, with adhd. But the source of so much unwanted behavior is when we are in a situation where our emotions lead first. Sometimes our first response isn't very honest or accurate. And that's that ADHD phenomenon of we have the emotion. And there's definitely storytelling going on behind that emotion. Maybe there's some RSD in there. Maybe there's some stuff from your past, whatever it is, kind of flooding into this present moment. But you're not pausing to be aware that your emotion is connected to something that has nothing to do with this moment. You're just reacting to what. What's happening in the here and now. Like the rare times that I have blown off the handle at somebody and been yelling, like in a public place is a moment like that. And I. If I'm backed into that moment a hundred percent of the time, it doesn't happen very often at all. And it certainly doesn't happen very often these days, but it still can and does happen. And that fly off the handle moment is almost a hundred percent of the time I am going to regret when what I said. I am going to pause later and think about whatever it is that came out of my mouth and realize that I was not really viewing the situation accurately, that I was responding from an emotional place and not a place that was really taking the whole context into consideration. So when we're in that emotional brain, honesty kind of disappears. Right. We get this tunnel vision and we're only reacting to that emotion and whatever might be be behind it. On the other side, where honesty is a challenge for myself and so many of my clients is, I am incapable of fixing my face. Completely incapable of fixing my face. Meaning if I have strong feelings about something towards someone, if there's something yucky and unresolved, I am very not good at hiding that. And on top of that, I don't like to have to try to hide it. It feels like this really uncomfortable form of masking it itself almost feels dishonest like Dusty, if I was, you know, feeling frustrated or some kind of way about you that we honestly probably needed to talk about, and I'm showing up to record our podcast and oh, how are you? And just putting on a friendly face and nothing is wrong that. That I find that incredibly difficult to impossible to do. And it's such a common thing in neurotypical land. This is why office politics are so, so challenging for my clients with ADHD is because other people kind of develop these ways of being in certain spaces naturally and can do that without it being so very painful. But for me, it's torture. It's like, if I can even pull it off at all, it is so effortful to do so that I would ra. Just rip the band aid off and have the conversation with you and get to a. Get to whatever place we're going to get to, then try and sit on it and squash it.
- [08:03]
B
So I want to respond to a couple things you said there. So it's interesting what you're saying about the, like, whether it's honesty or it isn't when you're really emotional. Because I think when I thought about this in a negative context, I was also. I was not necessarily thinking only about the super emotionally charged moments, but also just like, where you're too blunt. Like, someone says, does this look bad on me? And you're like, yes. Right. And maybe again, I don't know how that skews among the, like, Audi HD years, because I've heard that can be more of a direct communication, like, thing with autism. But I do think that it is a thing with ADC too, because we don't. Yeah, we don't always stop to. To think of context and to think of filter. It's like we just blurt out what we're thinking. But when you talk about the emotional moments, that's interesting because, like, on the one hand, I feel like it is very honest. It's the honest emotional truth, but of that moment. And you're not necessarily feeling that way all the time. So it's like honesty without nuance because it's honestly how you feel in that second. But again, you don't have that greater context. You can't access all that other information that you would want to bring in later. Right. And say, like, maybe something a little bit kinder or softer. So those are two things I wanted to say. But then it's interesting what you're saying about not being able to fix your face, because certainly, like, I have some very neur. Neurodivergent friends who have that problem. But Ashley, don't you find that hard as a coach? Because part of our coach training is to have a neutral tone, neutral face, so that we are creating space for our clients to have their own emotional experience without like impacting them. But like that, I mean, there's like, there's things that are like quote unquote, like good coaching or like, right. Coaching on paper and then working with clients, you know, you go off script or you learn kind of what actually works. But like, so how is that for you? Do you. So you don't do neutral face with your clients?
- [09:50]
A
That's a really good question, Dusty, and one I would have never thought about. I love this. So a couple of thoughts on that is number one, yes, I do neutral face, but coaching is a bit of a different space. Right. If you and I as friends are having some disagreement or there's something I need to talk to you about or be honest about, that's one. But if you are my client and I am coaching you, I am necessarily not attached to anything that's happening in that space. Detaching from outcome is such a, such an important coaching tenant that it is just a different headspace to be in. Number two, I will say that being a coach and doing this as long as I have has made me better at being able to pause and be more objective, get up above situations like this when they do happen. And number three, and this is something I tell new coaches all the time, when I do, on the rare occasion I do notice that I'm feeling some kind of way about a client, I'm maybe kind of dreading that client session or feeling frustrated in some way. I've learned as a coach that part of my job is to check in with that because if something's not working for me in the coaching relationship, then that's an opportunity for me first as a coach to get curious and figure out what's not working for me, what's bringing up these feelings, and then to bring that to my clients as an opportunity to co create around that topic. And a common place where that happens in coaching relationships is if a client's in a place where maybe there's just not quite that opening for change or we're struggling to kind of find our footing. That can be a place where a frank conversation about whether or not coaching is the right fit for them right now is a good conversation to have.
- [11:40]
B
Well, I was thinking more about like if they say like something they say because like for me, same as you like, mostly I'm like, it's fine. But I find for me, the hardest is when. Because I, like, I am very invested in all my clients. Like, personally, like, I'm really stoked on all of them. So it's usually when they tell me that, like, their boss or their partner, like, they'll have a story where they're trying really hard, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm appreciating the effort. And then someone in their life will be like, oh, you suck. And then it's like, it's hard for me to be like that. That sounds like it was really challenging because my face wants to go like, oh, no, they didn't. You were drugs. So I'm like, I find that for me, it's more like. It's more like, say, someone's telling me a story about something, and then, like, or they're putting themselves down or something. They're not giving themselves any credit. It's hard for me to be, like, neutral face, like, because I want to be like, excuse me. What I'm hearing is you tried so hard and you're. Anyway, that's my point. That's more what I was thinking. What I was thinking about, like, face the face that happens in coaching or doesn't happen. But, yeah, well.
- [12:41]
A
And, Jesse, here's where I'll say that, you know, things like normalizing matter in coaching, too. So if a client does say something that is emotionally heavy, and I can kind of feel how that would hit me if I was in that situation, I don't think it's wrong to kind of hold that space with the client and to recognize that, yes, this is painful, and I empathize with that. I know what it feels like to feel what you are feeling right now. And, too, as a coach, part of our opportunity in a situation like that, where it might sound very black and white on the surface, right. And as a coach, maybe the first instinct is to jump to the defense of your client. The real opportunity there is to get curious and distinguished. Right. What really happened in this situation? Like, what was the ADHD and your stuff in this room, but also what wasn't, what had nothing to do with you, what was outside of your control. And that helps our clients get a more accurate perspective on, A, what the situation is, B, what's their stuff to work on, to control, to be a choice about and what's not their stuff.
- [13:52]
B
But I feel like we're getting a bit off topic about the honesty thing, though. But that was just. I just wanted to hear from you? Because I was like, oh, yeah, face. That's. And that's totally. I don't know, nobody's ever told me that. Feedback that I can't fix my face. Maybe I have a pretty. I feel like I have, like, Jim Carrey face, though. I have, like, very big expressions. But I have. I definitely have. My housemate has that problem. So can I move us on to, like, the thing I wanted to say about honesty and the sort of the strength part of it?
- [14:21]
A
Yeah.
- [14:21]
B
So I. We had started this off because I was talking to you about a client that I had who had a workplace management issue. They had staff under them that they had to manage, and they were struggling to give appropriate feedback to this staff person because they were over empathizing with them. So the staff person was struggling and also had adhd. And so the manager was like, oh, my gosh, I know what that feels like. And I wasn't supported in, you know, by my managers when I was struggling. So I really want to do right by this person and give them lots of empathy and support. And. But the problem was that person had a manager that was telling them that they needed to be giving, you know, like, getting this person's performance up, basically. Right. And. And so we explored some management literature, one of which was a book called Radical Candor. And it had a really. A concept in the book that was really interesting for the client, which was called ruinous empathy. And so ruinous empathy is just like where you overly empathize with someone and because you want to be kind to them and because you can really feel their pain is too hard for you to say the hard thing, which in the workplace can be disastrous, obviously. Right. Because we are. If we have management responsibilities, it's. Our part of our job is to make sure that people are getting the critiques and the feedback that they need. And so you and I, this had kind of led you and I to this discussion about how we like to receive honesty and receive critique and feedback as well. And I think it's. There was. There's a really interesting juxtaposition there. And by the way, for anyone listening, the idea of a Radical candor is that you're in sort of this pocket, like this Goldilocks zone of, like, having enough empathy and enough rapport with a person that you can be, like, fairly direct with them, but it's like you're being direct with them because you care about them. And so you're saying the hard thing, right? You're not blowing sugar up their butt you're not cutting corners. You're, like, telling them because you know they can handle it and because you know that it's important and because you care about them. And sometimes caring looks like saying the, like, really harsh thing, right? But if you don't have that relationship or you don't know how to be empathetic, it's going to also come across, like, way too harsh and way too blunt anyway, so it's. I think, you know, so far I haven't finished the book, but it seems like it has some good concepts for anybody who maybe is in management and struggling with the best way to communicate. But. So, Ash, you and I were talking about this interesting juxtaposition where we both agreed we, like, we would rather hear the harsh thing, like, we would rather know the truth. But then I said, you know, on the other hand, I can see how people in our lives wouldn't want to be direct with us, because I don't know about you, but, like, people have described me as, like, very sensitive to, like, the slightest amount of. So, like, sometimes I can be really sensitive because rejection sensitivity is, like, for me, one of the big aspects of adhd, right? And so the people in my life sometimes have felt like that I can't handle even, like, almost any criticism. But on the other hand, I feel like when I have heard something really harsh about myself, I'm like, it's like, very helpful, actually. I'm, like, glad. I'm like, thank you. Like, thank you for like, just telling me the honest thing. But I actually feel like these two things go together, right? Like, I'm really super duper sensitive to the slightest amount of criticism because I don't trust that. That people will be honest with me. Maybe they're holding back, right? So when they are really honest with me, like, yeah, it stings, but I'm also like, thank goodness. It's, like, very. A big relief, right? I don't know. What do you think?
- [17:30]
A
I agree with you that it can be a relief. I think so much of the ADHD experience is people holding back, is people not telling us, right? There's that opposing experience of, why can't you just write it down, get a planner, put it on the calendar, whatever. But so many of my clients, particularly the ones that were diagnosed late in life, in part, didn't know because nobody ever observed that for them in a useful way. I had a client that talked about a grad school experience where she was partnered with another grad student. And in her mind, up to this point, like, everything is going well. She's pursuing a career field that she's really stoked about. And as far as she knows, her program is going great and she is well liked within it. And this colleague dressed her down, like, in a really mean and cruel way. And she described it as the fantasy bubble bursting. Right. Like all of the sudden she's coming to this very harsh awareness that how she sees herself and how other people see her in this context are two very different things. And when she used that language of the fantasy bubble, I could relate to that because I've had times in my own life where I genuinely thought things were one way and then found out too little too late that things were in fact a completely different way because nobody was communicating honestly with me along the way. And that too little too late feels awful right now because now it feels like not only have you been carrying these feelings or this opinion, or there's been this problem with my performance or whatever, but now I'm finding out too what feels like too late to even do anything about it. Like, I think that's the moment where we can often get into that clean slate thinking like, oh, gosh, well, this is where everyone else is at. And I was wholly unaware. Maybe I just need to wipe the slate clean here.
- [19:34]
B
Yeah. What got me thinking about it was thinking about the ways in which I'm really good at being honest with other people and how I've kind of been tagged in to like, tell the person the hard thing. And so I can think of an example way back, long time ago when I was like in my early 20s, I actually was going to be a social worker. And I was in the school of. I was one of, like, 20 people accepted the School of Social work, which was like, very prestigious at my university. And our to get into it, we had to do these two classes. And so I made a friend in this class. And at the end of the two classes, we had to do this like, exam or something like. Or this kind of interview type of live workshop thing where the people from the School of Social work would be observing us and they would make their choices based on how we worked in these, like, small groups figuring out some problem. It was really weird. Anyway, the thing is, through these two classes, I had noticed that my friend who was really smart had a tendency to present, like, quite dumb. I would say, like, she had this way of, like, asking questions, being like, oh, well, I don't know, she just had this way of communicating that made her seem like an airhead. But she wasn't she was really smart, and so I was, like, kind of nervous, but I pulled her aside, and I was like, hey, I just want to tell you something. I was like, listen, like, I don't know if you know this about yourself, but sometimes the way that you're communicating, like, you kind of. You ask things and you say, like, oh, in this way, like you didn't know something. And I don't know if you understand what it is that you're communicating to others, but when I talk to you and you talk to me like that, it makes me think that you don't know what you're talking about. And I just want you to be aware of that going in, because I. I don't want you to, like, give the wrong message to these people, because I know you really want to get in, and you know what you're doing, and you can get in. And I think she was, like, a little off, but she was like, thank you for telling me. And then she did get in, and later she messaged me to be like, thank you for letting me know that. Like, I had no idea. And, like, I'm really glad you told me. So it was, like, a big chance to take, right? But it ended up. Ultimately ended up helping her, and she did go on to become a social worker. But similarly, when I lived in a big roommate situation when we were young, we had a roommate's friend. So one of my roommates had a friend who would come over, and we all really liked this person. And then they started hanging around too much and, like, not going home and sitting on our couch and, like, eating our food. And then all the roommates kind of started to complain about this person, and I really liked them. I was like, I didn't mind at all. I was like, I think this person's cool. But everybody kind of started getting a negative vibe about this person because they just didn't like how much they hung around, but nobody wanted to tell them. So we had this whole house meeting about it. I remember I was, like, 21, and I was like, well, why don't you guys just tell the person to go home? They probably don't know. And they're like, oh, well, like, he should know. And I'm like, okay. Finally it was decided that I would talk to this person. So I remember I took them out. We sat on a hill in the sunshine, and I said, listen, everybody really likes you, but you need to understand that, like, you. You're starting to wear out your welcome because you don't go home, and you need to, like, leave more often and you need to, like, not eat our food as much. And the person had no idea, right? Like, in their circles that they traveled in, that was just normal. And they were like, oh, thank you for telling me. Nobody wanted to tell them, right? And it was just, you know, for me, personally, I do not, like, I wish I could be a fashionable person. I don't put a lot of effort into how I dress. And I never. Maybe I just never had mirrors in my bedroom growing up or something, but I just don't have a habit of, like, looking at my outf before I leave the house. So sometimes I leave the house in the most ridiculous clothing. And the last two relationships I've had, I would say that the people that I've dated have been much more fashion conscious than me, which was by choice, because I admire that in a person because I don't have it. And a couple of times in both those relationships, the person actually said to me, like, you're going to leave the house in that? Or I'd say, like, I'd ask them, like, how do you think my outfit? Is it. Is it bad? And they'd be like, yeah, kind of. And I'm like, yo, thank you for telling me. Because, like, I don't know. And if I am going to leave the house in, like, really clashing patterns, will you please tell me? Because, like, that's really helpful. I don't want to walk out of the house looking like I'm about to go to the circus, but I might not notice, right? I appreciate it. I want to hear it. Right? But they probably thought, oh, I don't want to hurt her feelings. No, I would rather you tell me than I walk around looking, like, totally ridiculous in mismatched socks and, like, striped pants and, like, a floral shirt or whatever.
- [23:36]
A
So dusty. We've talked about how this can be a challenge. And even your roommate's story kind of speaks to how those of us with ADHD can often end up being the ones saying the hard thing because we're the ones that see that's what needs to happen. It's hard for us to fix our face and sit on it from that point. We can bring empathy to those conversations. But even then, there's a little bit of challenge in that, right? To be the person that. That finds ourselves in those challenging situations so often just by virtue of who we are and how our brains work. But one way I want to point out that can also be massive strength is pointing out and noticing the positive things in others, right? Which is something. It's something you learn how to do in coaching. But it is something that I have naturally done long before that. Right. I have had people from 20 years ago tell me that something that I said to them or noticed about them still sits with them today. Right. Still has an impact on their who and what I'm thinking about right now. You were talking about clothes is at the Chad conference a couple of years ago when you had me try on your leather jacket. And at the time, I could not envision myself as somebody who was cool enough to wear leather. I was newly out. I'm kind of relearning fashion. I think that's actually what we were talking about, because you wanted to take me to some death metal show. And I was like, I don't know if I have any clothes to wear. I don't know if I brought any clothes on this trip that I could wear to that. And you had me try on your leather jacket. And you were being honest with me when you said you thought it looked really good and I should get one. I still don't have a leather jacket. I do own a ton of other leather, though, and we're working on the jacket. And moments like that are really special because they help us see something in ourselves that maybe we didn't see before, maybe we didn't notice as unique or special. When you're noticing other people's strengths, other people's gifts, and I think that those of us with ADHD have a unique ability to see and appreciate those things. That's like, we love novelty. Right. So what do we love most about the people we love? Like, the things that uniquely make them, the things that shine through in that way. And we are uniquely good at spotting those things and appreciating them.
- [25:47]
B
Yeah, that's interesting, and I'm glad that was a helpful moment for you, because I've always. I love it when people are, like, effusively positive and, like, give me compliments or say, like. Or like you say, they notice those small things. They comment on things that other people don't. I really appreciate those things. And, you know, we know that people with ADHD respond better to praise than criticism, which can be hard. You know, I just gave a talk for the ADHD men's support group, and the talk was about how men can take more equal sharing of the household responsibilities. And specifically, where I see a lot of my male clients struggling is when they start to step up, they don't necessarily get positive feedback from their female partners or it doesn't necessarily make the difference that they hope it was going to make. And so the hard thing is, I think maybe for these, you know, understandably, that partners who have maybe had to put up with a lot of unmitigated ADHD behaviors might not be thrilled about giving a bunch of praise. But unfortunately, like, what we know about people with ADC is, like, they need more praise than criticism. And so, ironically, I think I was. When I was thinking about it, when I have this challenge with my male clients, I think, like, oh, man, I wish I could, like, let their partners know. Like, it kind of is hard. But you. The more praise you can give, we respond better to that. And it's the same for kids with adhd too. Right? We know that kids with ADC especially need. We need to actually train ourselves to start noticing when they're doing things right and complimenting them and letting and saying, like, oh, you brushed your teeth without me asking. Like, oh, I noticed you clean up all your toys. And that. I think that sometimes doesn't come naturally as a parent either. Like, if our kids are doing something good, we don't say anything. Is when they're doing something bad, we go, hey, don't do that. But we have to kind of train ourselves to be like, hey, you're doing that. Hey, you're doing that. Hey, that's great. So, like, as people with adhd, my point is just that, like, we really thrive with that more positive feedback. So I've definitely noticed whenever someone in my life has been like, you know what I like about you, Dusty? You always. I'm like, oh, thank you. That is good. And I don't think that I had as much of a natural propensity to do that, which more I think relates to the type of upbringing I had than my adhd. I really had to kind of teach myself to do that. And I taught myself to do it because I liked how I liked that attribute in other people. Like when I met people who were who. Who took the time to verbalize the nice thing that they noticed, I was like, I want to be that person. Right? But I will say, related to what you're talking about, Ash, I think where that shows up for me is actually, interestingly enough, looping all the way back to the thing we talked about at the beginning with emotionality. Because, like, I'm such an emotional person and I, like, shoot from the heart. I find that for me, I'm. I feel like I'm often giving people very heartfelt honesty like, that other people, like, I'm more willing to have, like, a very, I think, like, emotionally vulnerable moment with somebody who's just a friend and say, like, hey, like, you know, what you said meant so much to me. Or, like, I just want you to know that, like, the way that you do this or that is, like, you know, like, I think I'm more willing to go there and kind of, like, open up about something that would, like, almost honestly, like, bring tears to my eyes, that I just, like, love and appreciate about someone. But the how I get there is, like, through again, through that emotionality, like, when I get emotionally moved by someone or by something, I really want to, like, share that with people. And I think that a lot of people don't get that experience. Like, I think that's a bit unusual, you know? And so for me, it's kind of also through that. That honesty comes from that emotion.
- [29:04]
A
Interestingly enough, Dusty, I have the same way the running joke amongst my friends, like, when I've had, like, a couple of drinks too many, is I, like, I am the opposite of, like, a problematic drunk. Like, I start telling you how much I love you and all of the, like, cool things about you, right? Like, that's the like. So we always know when Asher's. When Asher's a little drunk because the I love you band starts.
- [29:27]
B
Oh, my God, that's so funny.
- [29:28]
A
Pouring out.
- [29:29]
B
Exactly the same people are like, oh, you're never, like, sloppy or mean when you're drunk. They're like, you just start telling everyone how much you love them.
- [29:35]
A
Yep, yep, we are. That's really funny that we share that trait.
- [29:38]
B
Finally, something in common.
- [29:40]
A
Something in common. We found it.
- [29:42]
B
Oh, my God. We just start a side podcast where we just get drunk and then and talk about things that we love.
- [29:48]
A
That would be hilarious, actually. I am down to try that. Okay, Dusty, when it comes to your concept of radical candor, that book you brought up as you were talking about that, I realized that's kind of how I live my life already these days. If you are my friend, like, that we have radical candor between us. I feel like I can say the thing that needs to be said. And I trust that you feel like you can say the thing that needs to be said and be it positive, negative, or otherwise. And I did want to come back to the idea that people with ADHD need more praise than other people, because I want to distinguish what that's about and what it's not about. When we are in a healthy place, it is not about validation. What it is about is context. Right. Knowing something about how my work is being perceived by others, how I'm being perceived by others, what others naturally notice in me in a given setting. That's all really helpful context for me. Even something as quote unquote, simple as dressing yourself. I struggle with fashion like you do, and part of it is because I can't always tell what looks good on me. I could be standing in the mirror, a full length mirror, looking at myself, and just not really have a read on whether or not this looks good, whether or not this is a good outfit. Part of that is because I have no visual brain. So it's just a hard thing for me to conceptualize. And so getting feedback from others in that realm. Somebody compliments my outfit when I'm out and about, which, by the way, I had a stranger do for like the first time ever, ever since coming out. And that felt really good. That's all context.
- [31:39]
B
Wait, what was the compliment?
- [31:41]
A
Oh, okay. So I was sitting with two of my friends, so three queers. And we were sitting, not at a queer bar, but we were at a punk bar. And somebody walked up to the three of us and they are so, like, both of them are so cool and so, like, fashionable. And this guy walks up to the three of us and he's like, I just have to tell you that I love all three but of your styles. And I was like, ah, I'm included in that. Whoa, what a moment, right? And I got to that moment by getting, as I'm learning how to redress myself, I got to that moment by getting context along the way, paying attention when people spontaneously complimented something that I wear, asking those same fashionable friends to help me figure out outfits and trusting them to tell me the truth, meaning they're not going to put me in something that they think looks ridiculous or bad on me. They're as invested in my feeling good in what I'm wearing as I am. And so, yes, when we're in an unhealthy place, when we're operating from that one down, honesty and feedback from others can very much be about validation and a need for validation. But when we're in a healthy place, that need doesn't go away. And it doesn't go away because our brains are wired for context. And so the more we can understand the context, how we're seen, how we're appreciated, how we're where we're struggling in a broader setting, the better off we are. It just, it better helps us orient to who we are in this space, in this place, in this Context. And I for one, can't operate without it. Again, that's why so many of my relationships are built on this idea of radical candor. I know that any one of my friends, I can ask a honest question for feedback and get an honest answer.
- [33:32]
B
Yeah. And as a coach, like, there's certain clients I've had where I've had a long enough relationship with them and they might be telling me a story, usually about a work context or in a social context where I'm, I'm seeing that they have a blind spot and they're not understanding what they did wrong or why they didn't get the outcome they were looking for. And like, sometimes I had to be that person with a client. And of course I don't know everything. So I say, like, look, I could be wrong, but I'm like, sometimes I've had to have that radical honesty with the client and be like, hey, you know why, you were being rude. Or I've even had clients show me text message conversations and I'd be like, here's why this person might have responded this way. It seems like you were being really, you know, off putting when you said this and that, and they didn't feel like they needed to explain that to you. And sometimes, you know, my clients are like, really in a tunnel vision. They're like, oh, but blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, but here's the thing you have to remember. And sometimes I have to be that person for a client. And of course I'm not, you know, God, and I not. It's not my place to say that I definitively know. So I always give them that disclaimer. Right? But sometimes that radical candor comes into coaching where I have to be the person to tell a client. Here's what I think you're not picking up on in this situation. But that's, you know, sometimes you don't have that person in your life. And like, sometimes with adc, we do need someone to tell that to us and it's easier to hear it more honestly. Like, then I, like, I don't like it when people are kind of hinting at something or, you know, like in the, in, in the example I gave earlier with all the roommates, nobody wanted to tell this person, right? Everybody just wanted to let the discomfort of the situation ride and what would have happened eventually all those people would have just kept, like, slowly building up a dislike of this poor, like, guest of ours who had no idea they were doing anything wrong until, like, they all would have Just been, like, talking about the person behind their back. And so, on another level, as a person with adhd, my justice sensitivity, I find I am often the person saying the hard things. Because for me, I'm like, hey, it's not fair that we all know this and nobody's telling this person this, right? Someone needs to say the hard thing, and nobody wants to. So I guess it'll be me, right?
- [35:34]
A
That's exactly right, Dusty. And because we've been on the other side of that equation ourselves so many times in life, we have a particular empathy for that, right? In a particular. We can see the value of honesty in a situation like that. Not that you could control the other person's behavior if that person flew off the handle or if it went a different way than the very lovely way it sounded like it went. That's. That's no longer on you. But for us to be in integrity, right? It starts with starting from an honest place and having the honest conversation. We are low on time. So is there anything else you want to say?
- [36:11]
B
I mean, I could go off about this all day, but I think we've made our point, right? Just that I think that if you are. If you have adhd, maybe you're having a different experience with honesty. And maybe it's good to know because, again, like, honesty at the wrong time or in the wrong way can also be really, like, hurtful for us or, like, partial honesty. Right? Again, like, I'm very sensitive, but I think if you can get a sense of where you appreciate directness and bluntness, you can start to advocate for that. And again, that's the thing. I work with my clients all the time is, like, helping them learn to tell the person, like, please, like, be direct with me. Tell me what you actually need. Don't hint at it. Don't assume I'm gonna understand your context. Like, and so for me, it's clothing, right? Like, no one's ever gonna hurt my feelings. If someone were to, like, maybe criticize my parenting, I would. That would probably really hurt my feelings because I work really hard on my parenting, and I'm, you know, racked with mom guilt just like everybody else. So I might take that the wrong way, right? Maybe that's an area where somebody needs to be a bit gentle with my heart, but because I kind of know in which areas. Direct feedback, you know, or, like, when I'm having a social. After a social gathering, I would like to know, did I do or say anything, like, super awkward that I can understand? Because sometimes I get caught up in the moment. So if you, dear listener, you know, if you can start to learn where you would like people to be more directly honest with you, you can start advocating for that, right? And I think if you struggle with some of the negative aspects of honesty, like, you've gotten bad feedback because you're not practicing radical candor. You're. You're practicing, I can't remember what the author calls it, like obnoxious aggression or something where you're like, you're being too blunt without the relational context. Right. If that's a problem for you, or you're the oversharer, you can work on some of those soft skills, like learning how much information to give and how much to hold back, but also learning why you hold it back so that you're not just feeling inauthentic or like you're a liar, but understanding the context of when it's better to withhold some information and why. And if you are too blunt, learning how to. Learning how and when to, like, leverage that bluntness like a tool rather than like a, you know, like Cyclops with the, like laser beam eyes, you know, just goes everywhere if you don't put the glasses on. But yeah, I think it's, It's a thing.
- [38:22]
A
Dusty, I think we could keep going on this and in fact, I think where we might stay on communication for our next episode and continue pulling on this thread a little differently. But we are out of time for today. So listeners, until next week. I'm Ash. And I'm Dusty and this is the Translating ADHD podcast. Thanks for listening.